Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 05 Nov 2009 13:59

---Deleted---

x posted on feedback thread

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 05 Nov 2009 14:57

Manish_Sharma wrote:^^Cold Start Dead?
Why abondon such powerful weapon?
Crossposting from Dileep's Spy Story 1:
The PM shuddered himself on the word Cold Start. It is a weapon like the one given by Indra to Karna. The Shakthi could be used only on one enemy, and it is indefeatable. The Cold Start doctrine was specifically designed for Pakistan and also for this kind of situation. It is the PM's responsibility to take that decision.

I am not qualified to comment on that. When I wrote that story, there was some discussion on BRF about it, so I conveniently used it in the story. There is a reason why I do not participate in the mil scenarios thread. My incompetence.

The only cold start I know is when you turn on the SMPS of a system.

harsha · Post by **harsha** » 05 Nov 2009 23:09

Hello everyone
I am a new member in this forum.I have a question
Recently paki army has captured weapons from taliban which they claimed "made in India".How can one identify make of any weapon or ammunition. Is there any unique id or tag like "made in xyz" engraved in every weapon or are there other methods for identifying ?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 05 Nov 2009 23:21

Dileep wrote: I am not qualified to comment on that. When I wrote that story, there was some discussion on BRF about it, so I conveniently used it in the story. There is a reason why I do not participate in the mil scenarios thread. My incompetence.

The only cold start I know is when you turn on the SMPS of a system.

Thanks for the reply Dileep, enjoyed both the Spy Stories very much. Looking forward to read SS3, hopefully you get less workload from the boss and write the next one!

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 06 Nov 2009 00:04

harsha wrote:Hello everyone
I am a new member in this forum.I have a question
Recently paki army has captured weapons from taliban which they claimed "made in India".How can one identify make of any weapon or ammunition. Is there any unique id or tag like "made in xyz" engraved in every weapon or are there other methods for identifying ?

That's because every weapon found in Pakistan is supplied by India and is painted in the tri color with a big neon sign at the back that says
Made in Hindustan for:
Reverse Terror Supply Inc.
26/11 Worli Sea Face,
Mumbai, Hindustan

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 06 Nov 2009 03:52

Actually if you see the pictures, it says: "Made in India". In Chinese.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 06 Nov 2009 04:41

I do not know where to put this news item, so I am putting it here:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... /#comments

I think Indian soldiers come into attack from other "indian soldiers" and so this news is pertinent to us.

One of the shooters has been identified as, Malik Nadal Hasan.

Any surprises there?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Nov 2009 20:36

VijayKumarSinha wrote:I do not know where to put this news item, so I am putting it here:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... /#comments

I think Indian soldiers come into attack from other "indian soldiers" and so this news is pertinent to us.

One of the shooters has been identified as, Malik Nadal Hasan.

Any surprises there?

Two more guys have been arrested acc to TV. What do you amirkhan-vasis say?

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 06 Nov 2009 20:53

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_fort_hood ... ng_suspect

Some updates on the shooting incident.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 08 Nov 2009 07:57

Had India ever designed any rifle with a bull-up design?

Are there any designs in work?

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 08 Nov 2009 08:43

shiv wrote:

Two more guys have been arrested acc to TV. What do you amirkhan-vasis say?

Well, I am a Khanadda vasi not a amirkhan vasi.

But, the best source of information here has been CNN. I also read G&M for more reliable Canadian news. They pretty much have reported the same stuff that you see on CNN.

My understanding is that 2 other guys were arrested as suspected shooters and were freed. So, there was only 1 shooter. He was an american of palestinian descent, who liked to prance about in traditional muslim clothes every where and used to wonder why he was being discriminated against. Also, apparently FBI was aware of him and that he used to post messages on jihadi websites. He was a psychiatrist and was supposed to be deployed to Iraq soon and didn't want to go there. He wanted to get out of Army due to that. He was thought to have been shot dead after taking 4 bullets but thanks to the excellent response of paramedics he was found to be alive and taken to hospital where he is currently on respirators and stuff.

A female police officer shot him down, she was the first one to reach the scene and was shot in the exchange, she is also in hospital but is doing well.

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 08 Nov 2009 16:35

ramana wrote:
jimmy_moh wrote:i have a newbie doubt...

as we see the history of any war element of surprise played a very big role in victory ...
but in this modern warfare how we can achieve this element of surprise.....

with the help of remote sensing satellites enemy can see the movement of our troops including the strength of the
troops also [ vice versa] so enemy can do all the countermeasures ...... right..?

so how the element of surprise playing the role in this modern war fare..?

The ones who win are those who break the symmetry. And yes chaos is symmetry!
IOW the one who win will be those who can act asymmetrically. Recall Shyam Saran's directive in first post: "Linear thinking will not transform a caterpillar into a butterfly!"

ramana sir can u give me a direct answer plz

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Nov 2009 17:36

jimmy, human ingenuity can fool any instrument. even with all the instruments, satellites and spyplanes etc events can be hidden from a side or even better, they can be misled.
remember how POK2 was hidden ? that is but a very small example of what can be done.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 08 Nov 2009 17:53

VijakumarSinha wrote:

I think Indian soldiers come into attack from other "indian soldiers" and so this news is pertinent to us.
One of the shooters has been identified as, Malik Nadal Hasan.
Any surprises there?

But, the best source of information here has been CNN. I also read G&M for more reliable Canadian news. They pretty much have reported the same stuff that you see on CNN.

I can see that your standards for accurate information are the highest. How can they be any higher than that?

there was only 1 shooter. He was an american of palestinian descent, who liked to prance about in traditional muslim clothes every where and used to wonder why he was being discriminated against.

The FBI was watching Hasan because it is their job to watch people who are likely to disrupt the peace and cause destruction.
This may also be relevant, though it may not be on CNN:

Every breath you take and every post you make
Every rule you break
Every step you take, I'll be watching you
Every single day and every word you say
Every game you play
Every fa** you make, I'll be watching you

- with apologies to "The Police"

Welcome to BRF. Though your stay may be short. Cheers

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 08 Nov 2009 21:00

Israel planning cell phone rocket alerts

How is this possible? How can they triangulate and keep track of every cell phone *number* within any given area? Moreover,how to broadcast a message through every service provider within the time the rocket hits?

arya · Post by **arya** » 08 Nov 2009 21:39

any update on MCA?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Nov 2009 15:59

What is this - from Vishnu Som's album

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Nov 2009 16:50

it's a display on the dhruv ?
this :

the display on the right is the same as the one above. it's showing different parameters (SYS is bracketed so system parameters are being shown) but if you look at the bottom of the screen you can see that it can show multiple types of parameters and the options are the same in both pictures. (SYS WR PFD MAP MENU)

a look at the left display makes it clear this is the dhruv, possibly WSI version ?
the tell-tale 4 missile arrangement on the right most pylon is possibly the clincher as is the total number of pylons.

this one

seals it as the dhruv. one interesting thing is that same display in the first image is again present on left side of the above weapons display.
both pilot and co-pilot have their own display.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 09 Nov 2009 21:01

Can Dhruv pilots browse/post on BRF from this cool set of computers?

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 09 Nov 2009 22:38

enqyoob wrote:Can Dhruv pilots browse/post on BRF from this cool set of computers?

Yup....!They can also use English to Ecuadorean Translation via google

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 10 Nov 2009 10:22

enqyoob wrote:VijakumarSinha wrote:
I think Indian soldiers come into attack from other "indian soldiers" and so this news is pertinent to us.
One of the shooters has been identified as, Malik Nadal Hasan.

Thank You, very much for the belated welcome.

Unlike some, I don't try to be an apologist for the kukarm of others so I didn’t mince any words in my comments.
And since I love Indian military and discussions about military technology in general I think I will stick around here longer than you think. Thank you, for providing some extra motivation in that regard.
Looks like I might have offended you in more ways then you have stated, therefore, I suggest that If you want to have a free and fair discussion, why don’t you send me your email and then, we can have a real tête-à-tête?
Because, Making fa** jokes from the privileged position that you are at, hardly qualifies for a discussion don’t you think?

Here is some more Information from CNN on the same terrorist, just for your eyes:
Hasan had contacted Al-Qaeda through the same Mosque that was used by 2 of the 9/11 hijackers.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 11 Nov 2009 03:17

Dear VijayKumarSinha:

I was not born yesterday, and I don't mince words either, and I don't plan to be tarred by association with "kukarmis" either. The thought process (if one can call it that) behind your posts that I quoted, was perfectly clear. The posts came across as the type of posts that one would expect from the Ku Klux Klan or the Aryan Nations or similar entities in the US and from those of similar IQ in Pakistan.

In the USA that would not be tolerated on a moderated forum, and you would be kicked out without further ado as a bigot. Is the Bharat-Rakshak Forum less civilized? Are Indian standards in 2009 less than these? I don't think so, but I am giving you this one chance to stop the nonsense, and stop it NOW. The issue is not whether I take offence, but whether I will tolerate racists or bigots on the forum, and for how long.

Answer: I won't. Not if I can help it.

Rather than issue a formal warning (or ban - since you make it clear that the issue is not ignorance, which can be "cured"), which you deserved, I chose to post a gentle nudge because this was the "newbie" thread. But I see that you consider yourself a veteran, given that you diss my "welcome" as "belated". Very well, then you should have known better than to exhibit your characteristics further and remove all doubt.

If you want to try to pick a quarrel about that and try to provoke me with the garbage about "my position" etc., I am afraid that will be of short duration. Like ending RIGHT NOW. So if you do not "mince" your words as a policy, you may consider swallowing them whole.

I do hope that is clear enough. I have no wish to be drinking tea or having "teat-a-teats" or whatever with people of such mindsets, thank you very much for the kind invitation.

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 11 Nov 2009 07:16

enqyoob wrote:So if you do not "mince" your words as a policy, you may consider swallowing them whole.

With no disrespect to anybody, I genuinely want to know:

Is the ability to play with words developed over a period of time?
Is it taught someplace?
Is one born with it?
Does one google / plagiarize for it?
Can impatient fickle minded learn it? (I would have started a poll for this, if I had the ability to follow up and maintain the thread)
Is there hope for less learned Abduls?

It’s not that I am ignorant, reading was my main hobby I know the language and the vocabulary but I can’t f*&#ing put it to use.

After reading N^3's line above, at least 9 painful life events did a fly pass in my mind where I could have used the exact same words to good effect.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Side Note: lack of articulating skills and time is stopping me from authoring an article on Indo-US-Pak equation in my college newspaper. I would love to present the newspaper with an alternate BRF like view point (doesn’t have to be my own

). Currently it’s dominated by Pak a necessary ally view point presented by various Ayeshas and Abduls on campus.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Nov 2009 07:24

have a look at this : http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/EBOOKS/pfs.pdf

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 11 Nov 2009 07:45

Seriously, more power 2 u if u are willing to write and educate your college buddies on indiapakistan.
Here is the scheme to write. Forget trying to be fancy with words, just put down what you want to say.

Just answer the following questions:
Introduction:
What is the topic? (2 sentences)
What is your paper going to say? (2 sentences)
How is your presentation organized? (first I look at what others have said, recent events, etc. etc) - 2 or 3 sentences.

Relevant work:
Search for papers/articles by a spread of ppl - SAAG/Raman, South Asia Terrorism Portal statistics, a couple of articles/ news reports on the (lack of) progress on the Mumbai attacks, dig up stuff on Kaluchak, Akshardham, IISc attack, Samjhauta express attack, Ahmedabad attacks..... just to remind the reader about the Pakiness of the Pakis..

Remind them of history of indiapakistan Biss Agreements - Tashkent Biss, Shimla Biss, Lahore Bus Biss, Agra Dog Biss, Sharm El Sheik Biss. Pls refer to the great recent paper in SRR titled "Give Biss a Chance"

Give at least one reference to each - makes your article look very authoritative, and you don't have to do any original thinking for this.

Scope of present article: What are you trying to say?

Evidence:
Well... list it and say what you want to say.

Conclusions: Break up Pakistan into 6 warring slums.

There you go.. paper is done.

Good luck.

You'll learn to make the catty remarks when you have 2 respond to imbecile reviewers, or go postal.

P.S. Ppl who use faux-bheshtern "figures of speech" simply demonstrate lack of clear thinking, so they are easy targets. Examples that sound totally ridiculous coming from sdres:
1. "Red herring". (ever seen them in the desert sands of Rajasthan where some of our co-postors were seeing them during the Fizzle jollies? I don't think herring live in the waters anywhere near India in fact.)
2. "Greatest thing since Sliced Bread" (do YOU think "sliced bread" is such a big deal? What's wrong with tearing bread apart with your teeth or fingers? )

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 11 Nov 2009 07:48

enqyoob wrote: In the USA that would not be tolerated on a moderated forum, and you would be kicked out without further ado as a bigot. Is the Bharat-Rakshak Forum less civilized? Are Indian standards in 2009 less than these? I don't think so, but I am giving you this one chance to stop the nonsense, and stop it NOW. The issue is not whether I take offence, but whether I will tolerate racists or bigots on the forum, and for how long.

Enqyoob, I have been thinking of starting a blog for sometime and I live in India. Would it be compulsory for me to moderate all the comments made on it? Or is there a legal category to choose from moderated/unmoderated type of blog?
I want to create something on the lines of Shiv Aroor type thing and would not have time/energy to moderate.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Nov 2009 07:51

also add that the current education system in TSP prevents *any* chance that the output will be mmoderate. even the geography taught is oxymoronic 'islamic geography' that speaks only of hills and rivers in 'muslim' countries. the links in TSP thread will tell you more.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 11 Nov 2009 08:03

Manish: I heard that my 6th cousin the evil Editor of SRR tried leaving the SRR blog unmoderated, in keeping with the fine traditions of Free Speech etc. Some jackass (ID: "Naradar" or something like that) came there and started posting abuse, and that was the end of that experiment. So it was either respond to him or change it to a moderated blog. It's not a big deal. My 6th cousin says that he gets an email at his gmail acct whenever a comment is left at the Blog, and it's one keystroke to approve it. Beauty of the system is that nothing APPEARS on the site until he approves it. No whines, nothing works.

He just has to check the mail once a day or so, to avoid keeping the postors waiting too long.

Regarding legalities in India, my impression is that I am very scared of posting anything from India, because I know (a) "they" monitor pretty-much everything and (b) "they" are rather naive and tend to misinterpret and do knee-jerk reactions to stuff that would be considered innocuous elsewhere. Rather quaint notions of "propriety" etc. Also ppl tend to go around with their H&D sticking out all ready to take offence at any opportunity, and promptly insist on a duel to the death. So good moderation is a must for Blogs from India.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 11 Nov 2009 08:16

^^Thank Enqyoob!

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 11 Nov 2009 08:49

Thank you both for the resources. I have mid terms right now, once they are done, Inshalla! I will embrace the susie vest. Any article published in paper has to have an email for feedback; I will have to tweak my spam filter for fan mail from the campus momeens.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 11 Nov 2009 09:21

OK, my bad! I admit, I shouldn't have said any of what I had said to Rahul M in another thread and to you now. I totally understand that I am truly a newbie and it was a newbie mistake.

In the very short time that I have been at BRF I have seen a few people do the same mistake and I can see myself walking down the same path.

So, I apologize to Rahul M and to you.

But, I must say I am not a racist or a supremacist. My comment above about Hasan sound the way they do because I detest the fundamentalist ideologies of all religions and usually end up trying to fight fire with fire. What I really meant to say was that from the information that is available about him, Hasan had undergone radical change in a short span of time, which should have rung alarm bells in the establishment.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 11 Nov 2009 11:39

BajKhedawal wrote:Thank you both for the resources. I have mid terms right now, once they are done, Inshalla! I will embrace the susie vest. Any article published in paper has to have an email for feedback; I will have to tweak my spam filter for fan mail from the campus momeens.

Saar if you need proof reading, I humbly offer my services.

koti · Post by **koti** » 11 Nov 2009 16:06

I have watched a documentary called "Why We Fight". It is kind of an eye opener on what is is it about Iraq, Vietnam, Iran and other so called evil countries that US of A is thinking and doing about.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0436971/

It maybe available for download in Torrents. You may download it if it is legal material.

I don't know how much of it is true but I would definitely be more careful in dealing with US after seeing this.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 11 Nov 2009 16:17

You dont need to watch any movies to known how to deal with US of A

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 11 Nov 2009 18:23

My comment above about Hasan sound the way they do because I detest the fundamentalist ideologies of all religions and usually end up trying to fight fire with fire. What I really meant to say was that from the information that is available about him, Hasan had undergone radical change in a short span of time, which should have rung alarm bells in the establishment.

Thank you, I am glad you see it that way. No one considers themselves any "ist". We are all Moderate and Enlightened in our opinion (OK, I may keep a picture of Attila The Most Extremely Moderate&Enlightened above my keyboard..)

Here are a couple of issues that triggered my "attention":
1. You see a name associated with an ALLEGED crime and go "Why is that not a surprise?" Yes I know, even Perry Mason would be hard put to argue the case of Dr. Hasan at this point, and yes, many of us go "Hmm! .... but we leave it at that. We are all human. If you ever get the chance to watch the old American movie, "No Time For Sergeants" , please do, and watch the part where the hero declares:

All I see is a Captain!

when his eyes are in fact going

at the Captain's well-endowed features. So, like him, we say:

All I see is a sick fellow whose life ended in committing a horrible crime

To extend that to hypotheses and conclusions relating the name to the possibility of committing violent crimes, is strictly verboten. You may see nothing wrong with it sitting in India, but I have seen enough ppl go

Hmm! His name is (just as an example) Manohar Koomar Sinha of Poonjab. Why am I not surprised that he got arrested for Insider Trading?

Don't people named "Hasan" deserve the same trust as other soldiers? How about in the Indian Army, which has tens of thousands of loyal, heroic Indians whose names may also trigger similar reactions from such ppl? Should they also be suspect? This is why this is indeed a time for "mincing words".

The simple sentence saying "Why does that not surprise me?" reads very innocently, but most people see that as the "tip of the iceberg" and draw instant conclusions about the author, about the admins who let that comment stand, and about the forum that lets that stand. Hopefully for Humanity, the reaction is unfavorable in most people. Unfortunately here, esp. on the "newbie" thread, the reaction may be to convey an example and elicit admiration.

2. Much worse, the comment

used to prance around in Muslim costumes and wonder why he was discriminated against

Amazingly, the US Army officially believes in Freedom of Religion. Does the Indian Army NOT do so? That would be the impression conveyed if I let that comment stand. A photo was published of someone in a "Muslim costume" taken at the checkout counter of a grocery store, and this was said to be Major Hasan.
Probably he was on his way to or from the mosque. Clearly he was not wearing "Muslim Costume" while on duty, or instead of his US Army uniform.

So there, I bet even CNN did not attach a description of that photo mentioning that it was a "Muslim costume". I did wonder why they chose to publish that photo. If and when Hasan is brought to trial in a civilian court (I don't know which way the law is on that, whether he will be court-martialed or brought to civilian court) the Defence lawyer will move for Mistrial on the grounds of publication of that photo - what juror won't have been "prejudiced" by publication of that photo? So that was an idiotic move by the news agencies, and in fact by the law enforcement agencies. Imagine the ruckus if the mass-murder case is dismissed because of "prejudicial conduct by the prosecution and the government". Many more innocent people may die.

Now I will suggest another aspect of that to you, which is what bothered me more.

In the US, many desis immediately adopt "usual" dress, hairstyles, accent and everything else, change their names, but still they find themselves the targets of muttered

what do you expect?

sentiments from idiots. Women are especially susceptible.

A few are honest and bold enough to "be what they want to be" and continue to dress comfortably and nicely, keep their hair long, not paint their faces, wear sensible shoes, keep the names that their families gave them, etc. Far from going, like many "modern" desis in desh:

How uncivilized! She hasn't even BOBBED her hair! Makes us Indians look so Third-Worldish, no? Why don't these savages ASSIMILATE?

I happen to admire that. It shows that the person may be someone who has an independent mind, and opinions worth listening to. It shows that the person is not a "sell-out", though this is very very hard in a land where 99% are brought up conditioned to think that any name that doesn't sound "western" is "too hard to pronounce" (translation: "not worth my time"). Like if you say

My name is Ram

they will say:

Oooooooo!! Are you from the Pooonjab? That's sooooo hard to pronounce! Is there a shorter version?

Same with many other communities who have some backbone and substance: they proudly wear traditional costumes. Are you aware of the struggle that Sikh soldiers in the US Army are going through? Most Americans cannot tell a Sikh turban and beard from "Al Qaeda" either. So these associations by "costume" hurt much more than you imagine.

A very easy way to tell the idiots from civilized people is to spot those who say:

But isn't that the person who goes around wearing that curtain?

Again, that comment would immediately elicit the same reaction from civilized people as any particularly obnoxious act in public. It is indeed, equivalent to a "fa**" in public - we all may do that in private, but there is no need to do it proudly in public.

Coming from someone in India, it is particulary saddening, because India is by far the more tolerant of "diversity", than the USof A which so loudly proclaims its diversity. In other words, the US is TRYING very hard, especially since the 1960s, to be more accepting of diversity, and to recognize that diversity is wealth, not weakness. Unfortunately, many Indians are brought up on the old idiotic stereotypes of England and America, and so we see them stupidly parroting such racist concepts and words as n****** (in the US, if I expand that I may get fired), "golliwogs" (did you know that refers to us desis?), sand-n**** (Arabs, but used to refer to us, since the ppl who do the identification are not exactly IQ300 types).

Unless we start being a whole lot LESS tolerant of such stupidity, there is no hope to reverse the backslide.

As for the event that triggered your hypotheses and conclusions, the real issue is whether there is a whole lot of harassment going on in the US military based on religion. They have tried very hard to control harassment based on race, and now face the much more basic problems based on gender. The religion stuff is aggravated by the presence of several "Patriotic" organizations that impose their extreme conversionist garbage. During WW2, Jews in the US military were subject to extreme harassment, and the anti-Jewish prejudice went all the way to the highest levels of the US Govt, including numerous Senators. Many were great admirers of Hitler and his Final Solution. Now that is considered very unfashionable, and there are enough Jewish Generals and Senators that it would also be sufficiently dangerous to be a deterrent.

So today they have Xtian Chaplains and Jewish Rabbis in plenty in the US military.

Try being a Hindu or Sikh in the US military and getting any understanding of your feelings the day before you are to go into battle, and you may begin to understand. The plight of Muslims is especially dire these days for reasons that don't need explanation, though the President has declared that the US is not at war with Muslims. Try getting a soldier or gung-ho Colonel to accept that, when they think the President himself is a foreigner because his skin is not white, and that he is a Muslim because his middle name is Hussain! This guy is Jordanian-American, and I can begin to imagine what life was like for him. OTOH, note that the System did recognize his merit enough to make him a Doctor and give him the rank of Major, which is about as high as most psychiatry types will go in the military before retiring to start a lucrative private practice. So he had everything to look forward to. Clearly, he "snapped".

As for incidents occurring the day before combat deployment in the US Military, there are enough books on what happened in the Vietnam era. I especially recommend the book

The Officers' Wives

No need to expand on that here. It should be obvious that this is a peak-stress time. Violent "solutions" and "last chance" pressures are presumably very high on the people's minds on that day.

I am by no means implying that the guy who committed mass murder is any less innocent. He is going to jail for the rest of his life. I am saying that those who goaded him and made life difficult for someone based on his religion or ethnicity, are equally guilty for the deaths and wounding of so many innocents, and they have brought unspeakable shame to the US military. I hope the US military command is going to track and hunt them down like the snakes that they are, and court-martial and jail them for 40 years too. Those are far worse enemies of the US than the "Al Qaeda" aka Pakistan Army/ISI can ever be.

The failure in the "establishment" was in not stopping the harassment when it should have been obvious. Several careers are coming to an end for that, going all the way up, probably, to 3-star level. They were correct in not harassing Muslim soldiers specifically by conducting "monitoring" etc. All the soldiers coming up for deployment would have been under extreme stress, and many would have sought solace in their religion. Your suggestion that the US authorities failed in this respect comes from a deep lack of understanding of what the rights of a citizen are. That is indeed saddening coming from someone in India.

As for mass murders in the US, please check the long list, and you will see why associating religion with such tendencies is, shall we say, not a brilliant conclusion. Get a person who has gone over the edge for whatever reason, give him easy access to a machine gun and ammo or explosives, and the rest is obvious. This is why there is a term for such incidents: it is called "going postal". An insensitive term, but triggered by the fact that there were numerous such incidents of employees/former employee of the US Postal Service coming in to the Post Office to greet their (former) bosses, customers etc. with machine guns. None of those were Muslim or connected with "Al Qaeda", AFAIK. The other "famous" incidents are the mass murders at Columbine High School in Colorado (very "majority" and "religiously appropriate" shooters) who just felt like killing their co-students, and Virginia Tech Institute (engineering student from a Korean-American family, again "religiously appropriate") who was maybe dejected about grades or girlfriend. Before that the "record" was held by a shooter in a restaurant in California.

The miracle in this particular case is that ATM also put a policewoman with a gun in close enough vicinity that 4 of her 6 shots hit the shooter. The rest there were all lined up to receive injections or collect diplomas - the toll could have been far higher.

IOW, I am very glad that you aspire to be not a racist or bigot. Refusing to needlessly generalize from isolated incidents is a good exercise in discipline to help you on the way. Keep up the good work of moving in that direction. Cheers

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 11 Nov 2009 18:29

koti wrote:I have watched a documentary called "Why We Fight". It is kind of an eye opener on what is is it about Iraq, Vietnam, Iran and other so called evil countries that US of A is thinking and doing about.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0436971/

It maybe available for download in Torrents. You may download it if it is legal material.

I don't know how much of it is true but I would definitely be more careful in dealing with US after seeing this.

Thankfully, foreign policy decisions are not based on movies. It was the director’s job to convince you about his POV and I am glad he was persuasive but that does not make it accurate; otherwise everyone would move to Cuba after watching Michael Moore’s Sicko or resort to socialism after watching Capitalism a Love Story. Although, I am sure it is has elements of truth to it.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 11 Nov 2009 18:38

Try being a Hindu or Sikh in the US military and getting any understanding of your feelings the day before you are to go into battle,

In the IA, the percentage of troops has to be 60% (if I remember correctly) wherein a priest of that religion can be posted to the unit.

I remember this since a Sikh JCO demanded to have a granthi in my unit. I told the JCO, who had insisted, to convert the men and then come back!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 11 Nov 2009 19:02

VijayKumarSinha wrote:Had India ever designed any rifle with a bull-up design?

Are there any designs in work?

Bullpup Insas.

AFAIK, IA was not too impressed with them.

Then there is MSMC with a very unique design for a carbine (though not a bullpup).

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 11 Nov 2009 22:08

http://in.news.yahoo.com/20/20091110/14 ... e-d_1.html

Didn't know where to post this. Can someone please guide me?
Thanks

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 11 Nov 2009 23:05

atreya wrote:Didn't know where to post this. Can someone please guide me?

This is being discussed in the Mumbai Attacks thread in the Strategic Issues forum.