Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Sayak · Post by **Sayak** » 14 Oct 2009 06:38

Hello all this is my first post here on BR,I have followed the forum for many years and now proud to be a member. Since F-16 is a contender in the MRCA during the F-16 user trials will we get some insight into what Pakistan is receiving?

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 14 Oct 2009 07:29

shravan wrote:X-posted
Islamabad: The first batch of 18 F-16 combat jets ordered by Pakistan were on Tuesday rolled out during a ceremony in the United States that was attended by Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman.

Block-52 F-16D
Pakistan had signed a contract with the US government for 18 F-16 C/D aircraft in in September 2006.These jets will bolster the PAF's fleet of combat aircraft and will enable it to undertake a "wide variety of missions across the entire spectrum of operations", the statement said.

After the testing and integration of new systems, the first batch of F-16 C/D aircraft is scheduled to arrive in Pakistan in June next year. The delivery of all 18 jets is planned to be completed by December 2010.

Guru's,

This report is little confusing....it says 18 jets have been rolled out and again in the end it says 18jets delivery will be completed by dec 2010 ???

and also F16 is one of the contender in our MRCA...which block has been offered to India and advantages it has over block - 52...can any provide any info on the same...

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 14 Oct 2009 07:47

DLR wrote:Hello all this is my first post here on BR,I have followed the forum for many years and now proud to be a member. Since F-16 is a contender in the MRCA during the F-16 user trials will we get some insight into what Pakistan is receiving?

Think Singapore, Sindex and Kalaikunda

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 14 Oct 2009 07:53

Mahesh_R wrote:This report is little confusing....it says 18 jets have been rolled out and again in the end it says 18jets delivery will be completed by dec 2010 ???

and also F16 is one of the contender in our MRCA...which block has been offered to India and advantages it has over block - 52...can any provide any info on the same...

It's the first batch of aircraft out of the 18. The report mentions the rollout of the first aircraft indicating the programme is on schedule.

We have been offered the F-16 IN which is a Block 60 batch similar to what is used by the UAE today. An uprated engine and AESA are some of the prime differences. Do take some time to read through the thread. There has been some discussion on this before.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 14 Oct 2009 18:49

The Pakistani Navy is keeping its options open even though it is poised to order three Type 214 submarines from Germany’s HDW according to IOL.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 14 Oct 2009 23:32

US PACIFIES PAKISTAN WITH NEW F-16C/D

Watched by the Air Force chiefs, diplomats, officials from the two countries and local law-makers, Lockheed Martin unveiled the first of 18 Block 52 F-16s made for Pakistan under an order ironically named ''Peace Drive 1.''

The 18-jet order, which includes 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, was scaled down from the original 32, which Pakistan could not afford. But even the whittled down order has kept Lockheed Martin’s Forth Worth plant, which is otherwise nearing the end of its life, humming for awhile, which is why the event saw the attendance of lawmaker Kay Granger from the adjoining Texas 12th district.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 15 Oct 2009 04:02

Pak, China Vow to Boost Up Defence Ties

"Pakistan was interested in the production of defence-related equipment and setting up of local overhauling facilities, and invited the Chinese companies to invest for joint ventures in this regard," Gilani said.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 15 Oct 2009 04:26

UH-YELLO IT'S NOT BLOCK 60

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 21 Oct 2009 09:28

I am posting this link to the recently discolosed information about the Toronto-18 In this section because, not only did this terror cell have direct pakistani connection but the modus operandi of these terrorists is the same as the ones developed and used by Pakistan.

I would advise you all to video all the links in that video because this is what we and the rest of the the world is up against:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... le1331227/

arun · Post by **arun** » 22 Oct 2009 11:13

X Posting article.

Brigadier Moin Haider, Deputy Director General Military Operations of the Pakistan Army, shot dead in Islamabad by motorcycle-borne Mujahedin,

Dawn reports that Brigadier Moin Haider “is believed to have been involved in the strategy-making for the on-going Waziristan operation against militants, as well as the Swat operation”:

Top-ranking army Brigadier shot dead in Islamabad

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 24 Oct 2009 20:34

From GEO

3 killed, 2 injured in Bajaur copter crash
Updated at: 2048 PST, Saturday, October 24, 2009

BAJAUR AGENCY: Three persons are killed and 2 others injured when an MI-17 helicopter crashed in Bajaur Agency, Geo News reported Saturday.The army helicopter MI-17 crashed in Tehsil Nawagai. Three persons on board were killed and 2 others injured, sources said.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 25 Oct 2009 22:53

Craig Alpert wrote:UH-YELLO IT'S NOT BLOCK 60

Can't they just get them from the black market or from a supplier elsewhere?

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 26 Oct 2009 08:53

A Sharma wrote:From GEO

3 killed, 2 injured in Bajaur copter crash
Updated at: 2048 PST, Saturday, October 24, 2009

BAJAUR AGENCY: Three persons are killed and 2 others injured when an MI-17 helicopter crashed in Bajaur Agency, Geo News reported Saturday.The army helicopter MI-17 crashed in Tehsil Nawagai. Three persons on board were killed and 2 others injured, sources said.

Taliban are claiming they shot down the helicopter
Link

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Oct 2009 01:58

shyamd wrote:
Craig Alpert wrote:UH-YELLO IT'S NOT BLOCK 60
Can't they just get them from the black market or from a supplier elsewhere?

what? block 60 f16's or conformal fuel tanks?
the answer to both is no

arun · Post by **arun** » 28 Oct 2009 08:59

X Posting on the Jihadi DNA of the Pakistan Army ..............

Truly epitomizing the “Jihad fi sabilillah” or translated the “Jihad in the way of Allah” part of the motto of the Pakistan Army.

The Times (UK) identifies Tahawwur Hussain Rana who has been charged with terrorism in Chicago as not only having being born and trained for terrorism in Pakistan but also as having served in the Pakistan Army as a Captain:

October 28, 2009

‘Mickey Mouse Project’ plotted to kill Muhammad cartoonist

While in Denmark he allegedly posed as a potential advertiser on behalf of a Chicago business, First World Immigration Services, run by Tahawwur Hussain Rana. Court papers indicate that Mr Headley and Mr Rana, 48, a Pakistani-born Canadian citizen, who is reported to be a former Pakistani army captain, .............................

Times Online, UK

The Pakistan Army, not without reason an institution for uniformed Jihadi’s.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 29 Oct 2009 10:58

U.S. Quietly Speeds Aid for Pakistani Drives on Taliban
From the article:

During preparations this spring for the Pakistani campaigns in Swat and South Waziristan, President Obama personally intervened at the request of Pakistan’s top army general to speed the delivery of 10 Mi-17 troop transport helicopters. Senior Pentagon officials have also hurried spare parts for Cobra helicopter gunships, night vision goggles, body armor and eavesdropping equipment to the fight.

American military surveillance drones are feeding video images and target information to Pakistani ground commanders, and the Pentagon has quietly provided the Pakistani Air Force with high-resolution, infrared sensors for F-16 warplanes, which Pakistan is using to guide bomb attacks on militants’ strongholds in South Waziristan.

In addition, the number of American Special Forces soldiers and support personnel who are training and advising Pakistani Army and paramilitary troops has doubled in the past eight months, to as many as 150, an American adviser said. The Americans do not conduct combat operations.
........
........
Also involved was Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who repeatedly pressed his staff to find the Mi-17s in American inventories and to figure out a way to provide them to Pakistan.

This year alone, the Pentagon is sending more than $500 million in arms, equipment and training assistance to Pakistan, to help train and equip the Pakistani military for counterinsurgency operations.

Included in that package is nearly $13 million in electronic eavesdropping equipment to intercept militants’ cellphone calls. In July, the Pentagon supplied Pakistan with 200 night vision goggles, 100 day/night scopes, more than 600 radios and 9,475 sets of body armor.

arun · Post by **arun** » 29 Oct 2009 11:39

X Posted.

Interesting that that the Taliban and Al Qaeda, neither of whom have been exactly reticent about owning up to responsibility for terrorist acts, have denied involvement in the latest demonstration of the IEDology of Pakistan at Peshawar (See here for the demonstration of the IEDology of Pakistan at Peshawar ).

With the un-uniformed Jihadi’s ruling themselves out, we are left with the uniformed Jihadi’s of the Pakistan Army likely indulging in the “Jihad fi sabilillah” or “Jihad in the way of allah” part of their of their motto to :

1.Cement the notion of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s victimhood regards terrorism and given that the US Sec of State Hillary Clinton is currently visiting Pakistan wheedle more money from the US or;

2. Send a message from the Punjabi dominated Pakistan Army to the Pashtun / Pushtun / Pathan to fall in line or else risk the genocide that was unleashed by the Pakistan Army on the Bengalis of Bangladesh in 1970-71.

Article from Pakistan's Jung reporting both the Taliban and Al Qaeda have denied reponsibility for the latest demonstration of the IEDology of Pakistan at Peshawar:

Taliban, al-Qaeda disown blast

arun · Post by **arun** » 29 Oct 2009 19:41

X Posted.

Ashley Tellis in a October 2009 Policy Brief put out by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peacee titled “ The United States and India 3.0: Cave! Hic Dragones “, makes the observation that within the ranks of the uniformed Jihadi’s of the Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan there is a visceral hatred for India :

the Pakistani military’s antipathy toward India goes beyond any particular issue. Instead, it is produced by a malignant mélange of the army’s own hold on power in Pakistan, its vast economic and financial interests within the country, its role in upholding the raison d’être of an otherwise infirm state, and its desire to avenge its defeat and the vivisection of its homeland in 1971—along with all the specific disputes that could in principle be resolved.

Read it all:

The United States and India 3.0: Cave! Hic Dragones

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 29 Oct 2009 22:28

To me THIS is pretty candid and brave!
Clinton says Pakistan missed chances with al-Qaida

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton is suggesting that Pakistan's government has squandered chances to kill or capture al-Qaida leaders.
.....
Clinton said al-Qaida has used Pakistan as a haven since 2002. She said she finds it hard to believe that nobody in Pakistan's government knows where the leaders of Osama bin Laden's terrorist network are hiding.

She also said she finds it hard to believe that Pakistani authorities couldn't "get them" if they wanted to
.....

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 30 Oct 2009 07:25

Check out this video.
Paki journo suggests that the conditions attached to the aid (ie. not helping the terrorists) is humiliating. Hillary shows him what humiliation really is:

Let me make this clear--you do not need to take this money. If pakistan does not want to take this money, we will not impose it on you.

Most excellent public jhapad and confirmation of pakis servile status.

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 30 Oct 2009 09:02

PICTURES: Pakistan's first Saab 2000 AEW aircraft enters final testing

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... sting.html

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 30 Oct 2009 10:07

Victor wrote:Check out this video.
Paki journo suggests that the conditions attached to the aid (ie. not helping the terrorists) is humiliating. Hillary shows him what humiliation really is:
Let me make this clear--you do not need to take this money. If pakistan does not want to take this money, we will not impose it on you.
Most excellent public jhapad and confirmation of pakis servile status.

Here is the full interview, I strongly suggest watching it-

http://vidpk.com/35715/Hilary-Clinton-i ... ober-2009/

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 31 Oct 2009 08:00

As per Time magazine http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 09,00.html

the Pakistan Army lost 360 troops includin 60 officers in the Swat Operation.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 31 Oct 2009 12:34

Victor wrote:Check out this video.
Paki journo suggests that the conditions attached to the aid (ie. not helping the terrorists) is humiliating. Hillary shows him what humiliation really is .

Hi....I can't see any video on that page. Can you please provide an alternate link ??
The video link that Sourabh provided was very long around 31 min. It will take very long time for buffering.

Thanks

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 31 Oct 2009 17:56

As one postor has pointed out to two members, reposting blog and fora comments from some random Paki does not contribute to either the discussion or knowledge base and should be avoided. Thanks.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 31 Oct 2009 21:01

Victor wrote:Check out this video.
Paki journo suggests that the conditions attached to the aid (ie. not helping the terrorists) is humiliating. Hillary shows him what humiliation really is:
Let me make this clear--you do not need to take this money. If pakistan does not want to take this money, we will not impose it on you.
Most excellent public jhapad and confirmation of pakis servile status.

she was as frank as frank can be, and that amounted to a public slap as you rightly said..its US taxpayers money and the US Govt. is accountable for how its spent..don't want it then don't take it..obviously the beggars that Pakis are, they'll take it with both hands folded and then go back into their corner and mutter about how they were humiliated.

arun · Post by **arun** » 04 Nov 2009 20:00

X Posted with a Hattip to Nayak :

Famed French judge Bruguiere tells of a troubled Pakistan

In a new book, former investigative magistrate Jean-Louis Bruguiere says Pakistan has lost control of rogue military and intelligence officers, who are aiding militants.

By Sebastian Rotella
November 4, 2009

Reporting from Washington - The Pakistani government has lost control of rogue military and intelligence officers who aid Al Qaeda and its allies and play a double game with the West, a renowned French judge asserts in an upcoming book. ……………………

The book details French investigations of extremist activity in Pakistan, including a case in which officials went as far as hiding militants from CIA inspection teams at a training camp run by the Pakistani military. Military handlers then sent the trainees on terrorist missions to the West, Bruguiere asserts. ………………………..

Islamic radicals seemed to benefit from "a certain sympathy, to say the least" within Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency, he writes, citing one of his cases. "We did not have the impression that our interlocutors considered [Al Qaeda militants] to be terrorists." …………………………

"The situation in Pakistan is among the most worrisome," he writes. "The central government has lost control of certain elements of the army and the ISI, an intelligence service that no longer has the trust of its foreign partners."

The judge cites his investigation of Willie Brigitte, a Frenchman who was convicted of terrorism charges in 2007.

After the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, Al Qaeda militants helped Brigitte go to Pakistan to train with hundreds of Arabs and Westerners and several thousand Pakistanis and Afghans at a mountain complex in Punjab. Affiliated with Al Qaeda, the camp was run jointly by the Lashkar-e-Taiba extremist group and Pakistani security forces, which supplied arms and instructors, the book says.

CIA officers accompanied by Pakistani officials made four inspections of the camp, part of an agreement in which Pakistan had promised to prevent foreign militants from training with Lashkar, Bruguiere writes.

"But, since most of the officers of Lashkar belonged to the army, these inspections were doomed to draw a blank," the book says. "The foreign recruits were alerted on the eve of the arrival of the inspection teams by their instructors, military men informed by their hierarchy.

"The trainees then had to . . . erase any traces of their presence and head to an elevation of more than 13,000 feet while the inspection lasted." ……………….

LA Times

arun · Post by **arun** » 08 Nov 2009 11:18

X Posted.

Seymour Hersh in the New Yorker in an article datelined November 16, 2009 and titled “ Defending the Arsenal “ on the security of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal.

Apparently the Johnnie Walker swilling Bade Mian’s of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan seem to be going extinct :

During my stay in Pakistan—my first in five years—there were undeniable signs that militancy and the influence of fundamentalist Islam had grown. In the past, military officers, politicians, and journalists routinely served Johnnie Walker Black during our talks, and drank it themselves. This time, even the most senior retired Army generals offered only juice or tea, even in their own homes.

Read it all:

The New Yorker

khan · Post by **khan** » 08 Nov 2009 22:37

arun wrote:X Posted.

The New Yorker

What an article! Has this been discussed anywhere?

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 09 Nov 2009 09:26

khan wrote:
arun wrote:X Posted.

The New Yorker
What an article! Has this been discussed anywhere?

Yes, Here

SagarP · Post by **SagarP** » 10 Nov 2009 20:55

Pak buys 36 advanced China's J-10 fighter jets

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 11 Nov 2009 08:48

SagarP wrote:Pak buys 36 advanced China's J-10 fighter jets

Not just 36, but 150 per this report

In a move that could further add to the growing tensions between New Delhi and Beijing, China has agreed to sell up to 150 of its most advanced home-made J-10 fighter jets to Pakistan in a deal potentially worth $6 billion, according to reports.

The South China Morning Post reported on Tuesday that the two countries had agreed on the sale and that Pakistan wanted them “delivered soon”. The paper quoted an unnamed official of the China Aviation Industries Corporation (AVIC), which manufactured the aircraft.

The J-10, or Chengdu Jian-10 to give it its full name, is China’s most advanced indigenously developed combat aircraft and is a third generation fighter, equivalent to an American F-16.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 11 Nov 2009 09:15

The porkis are really desperate if they want to buy chinese made unproven and unreliable aircraft at 40 mil per pop. It just makes a lot more sense to buy F-16 blk 52 at 50-60 mil per pop (100 F-16's) which are proven a/c's. I can only assume China will need to provide loan or US has severely neutered the F-16's to MUNNA which is forcing them on this issue. Anyway 150 J-10 can be easily countered by 150 LCA's forget the MRCA or MKI.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 11 Nov 2009 09:35

Yeah, its great news that the Pakis is going in for even more EDIT stuff. If they twiddle their thumbs at us, we could remind them that there are people in Ulhasnagar, Maharashtra (a place famous for bad duplicates) who are already working on a 6th Gen J-10!

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 11 Nov 2009 09:47

Facing similar threats of lower quality Chinese made rip off's is comparatively better news for India, rather than Porkis getting more and more amerikan and euro weapon platforms.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 11 Nov 2009 10:41

SSridhar wrote:
SagarP wrote:Pak buys 36 advanced China's J-10 fighter jets
Not just 36, but 150 per this report
In a move that could further add to the growing tensions between New Delhi and Beijing, China has agreed to sell up to 150 of its most advanced home-made J-10 fighter jets to Pakistan in a deal potentially worth $6 billion, according to reports.

The South China Morning Post reported on Tuesday that the two countries had agreed on the sale and that Pakistan wanted them “delivered soon”. The paper quoted an unnamed official of the China Aviation Industries Corporation (AVIC), which manufactured the aircraft.

The J-10, or Chengdu Jian-10 to give it its full name, is China’s most advanced indigenously developed combat aircraft and is a third generation fighter, equivalent to an American F-16.

Tension? How many indians are going to get tensed by reading this?

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 11 Nov 2009 11:36

Nihat wrote:Facing similar threats of lower quality Chinese made rip off's is comparatively better news for India, rather than Porkis getting more and more amerikan and euro weapon platforms.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 11 Nov 2009 11:44

Mig-21 bison is a decent fighter. What extra knowledge did the shiny photos impart on you? Given that they will have low quality chinese radar and avionics what makes this a more potent threat than the F-16 blk 52?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Nov 2009 11:49

^^^
what does the bison got to do with this ? even a small increase in capability shouldn't be ignored and this is at least equivalent to F-16 C/D level.

the more interesting question is who will pay for it ? I seriously doubt that 150 number anytime soon.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 11 Nov 2009 11:52

The sky looks a lot more bluer in china?