Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

[RayC]

Honour killing?

A modern practice?

[Manish_Sharma]

Jarita

Also, never understood how having multiple wives gives you more kids - Males and females are in roughly 50:50 ratio. The population is constrained due to female reproduction, not male. One man marrying 4 women produces 8 kids from those 4. At the same time 3 other men don't have women to marry (simplistic view and which is why they become jihadis ). Unless you are talking about a Chand Fiza scenario.

Jarita, the way it is done is you have one wife from your own religion and others from Hindu Jainas etc. this way islam is being spread fast. Muslim boys in Meerut I have known they will introduce to Hindu girls as Rajesh or Vimal and when the girl has fallen in love then confess being a muslim. This way you marry and bring her into your fold. The kids of course would be muslims.

[Manish_Sharma]

Thanks Manish, I will address the points separately

1) SeS has had a huge back lash, probably the worst ever. It is very very rare for the Parthsarathy's of the world to come on national TV and call the PM a "sellout" of national interests (almost in so many words) I believe something did change post S e S, as I see the complete home + external affairs portfolio seem to have shifted to Pranab + Chidambaram post S e S. They are actually setting and driving the GoI agenda while MMS and MSK go out and mouth feeble platitudes. Even during the S e S time frame Chidambaram was publicly contradicting MMS on national TV. Antoy seems to be more with the Group 2 now too (he had a fairly different take on the EUMA, was not even in Delhi when MSK was shaking hands with Hillary and announcing EUMA -- unbelievable)

2) The victory of Congress is more a testimony of the complete failure of BJP to get its act together and behave like a right of center nationalist party, as Arnab Goswamy said on Times NOW, Congress become nationalist when opportunity arises, but BJP turned Nationalism to opportunism. A severe but true criticism that BJP deserves in quest to be me too to congress. (note I voted BJP and will vote them again despite everthing)

3) The feeling of quite rage I talk about will not get any notice in the English media which is busy white washing, for example post the Godhara massacre and carnage of Kar Sevaks by burning, for two day ToIlet and HT were celebrating "these goons had it coming, good" and then Gujarat erupted in fury.

4) I did look at the deterrence thread -- however the reason I did not comment on it was because Nuclear deterrence is never for Pakistan. Pakistan we can lick without Nukes anyway if needed. Pakistan's strength is not its arms or Nukes, its strength comes from its 3 and 1/2 friends backing it.

Thanks for the explanation Sanku!

[Atri]

X-Posting from India-China Dhaaga

Dangerous for India.. I remember the stance of Enqyoobuddin on whole Uighur uprising issue and find myself agreeing with him. Uighurs should not be given refuge in India.. After 10 years Uighur refugees will be "strategic assets" of TSP, if we do that..

More out of curiosity, does that not apply for Afghans too? And yet India has been a second home to them - for decades.

And Iranians too.

NRao ji,

Yes you are true about Afghans (Pathans). But, there is quite a difference between Pathans and other Central asians. I find them more vicious and savage than Pathans who are more influenced by North-Indian system of mercantile character by which the power is shared and distributed. Iran-India-China have had cordial relations with each other for most of the time in history. If they limit themselves within their natural frontiers (which they have most of the times), with Baluchistan, Tibet, Northern Afghanistan as neutral buffer states, things will be totally peaceful and wonderful.

Afghans (Pashtuns to be specific) have been under Indic influence lot more than Uighurs, Uzbeks. The experience of India regarding dealing with people from Khyber, Kapisa is ancient and time-tested and not always was it adversarial. Furthermore, Pathans have relationship with Punjab (today's pakjab) which is kind of love-hate relationship; although no punjabi king except Ranjit singh has went on to actually conquer Kapisa. It was usually the other way round. Furthermore, the relations of people from NWFP with people from Indian heartland (Gangetic plains) has always been more or less cordial. Even Abdali came to protect influence of Najib (nawab of doab and audh). Of course, every body has selfish interests.

India's eternal enemy has been the tribal mentality of central asia beyond Amu darya. This mentality has always been adversarial for India, both frontier provinces and heartland. Uighurs, Uzbeks, Tajiks, Kazaks, Turks, Mongols, Huns, Scythians, Kushans, invading tribes in battle of 10 kings in Rigveda (mostly), all were mostly from this region beyond Amu-Darya. Uighurs, Uzbeks, Tajiks, Turks and other central asians are good (for India and world) as long as Russia has tight leash on them and they remain in their region. When they try to move out of the central asian grasslands, Iran, China and India suffer the most. This is not the case with Pathans. Hence their case is different. Hence, Uighurs can be tactical allies for us, in modern times, when India has retreated lot behind her inner border (indus river). But this central asian mentality will never be a strategic ally of India.

Talking in terms of modern history, which is more relevant, Uighurs are influenced by Jihadi ideology and China fears that. Now, our adversarial relationship with China is tactical and not strategic or long term. If PoK is reconquered by India, PRC will stop being enemy of India. PRC bullies India just because they have an option of accessing IOR via a state called Pakistan within "India" which is not subservient to Indic core. If TSP is eliminated, they will have to deal with India for IOR access and India will gladly provide it to them on "INDIAN TERMS".

Until we have a reformed Hinduism to exert cultural coercive measures to Indianize Islam, Central Asians should not be allow within the heartland of Bhaarat. Personally, I even won't be much happy to see them in Afghanistan, Pashtoonistan and Pakjab, but it won't be bad either given the current state of affairs. The Dharmic path for India is that India brutally punishes all the a$$holes of pakjab, NWFP, Sindh and Bangladesh and show them who's the boss and their roots. Although it is tough, this is the right thing to do, in absence of other forces. Because that punishment, if given to them by India will result in their return to Indic fold. If that punishment is given to them by outsiders (central asians) it will further alienate them from Indic fold and too much of bad-blood to clean up later.

Now that India has lesser control on forces which are at play in that region, India will have to wait to get her righteous kill. Perhaps, events will unfold in such a way that India may have to tackle with forcible migrations of Uighurs due to oppression by PRC officials, something similar to 1971 war, from xinjiang under directive of PRC and TSPA. These migrants won't be similar to those from Tibet, Persia.

The best scenario for India is uighurs stay where they are, get "Moral support" from Indian government and continue to piss-off Chinese more and more.. They should not be allowed on Indian soil..

[Atri]

Until we have a reformed Hinduism to exert cultural coercive measures to Indianize Islam, Central Asians should not be allow within the heartland of Bhaarat. The Dharmic path for India is that India brutally punishes all the a$$holes of pakjab, NWFP, Sindh and Bangladesh and show them who's the boss and their roots. Although it is tough, this is the right thing to do, in absence of other forces. Because that punishment, if given to them by India will result in their return to Indic fold. If that punishment is given to them by outsiders (central asians) it will further alienate them from Indic fold and too much of bad-blood to clean up later.

how can this be done

Acharya ji,

How can Bhaarat be coaxed to take up the Righteous path? That is the whole crux of the matter. I guess lot of reasons have already been discussed on this thread. Most of them are sociological reasons like newer generation taking up the mantle with lower slavish sanskaras; bulging Indian economy.

I guess, thing with Bhaarat has been such that mere existence of a strong political core within Bhaarat makes the peripheral and centrifugal states unstable. For breaking and assimilating TSP, BD it is sufficient for India just to be there and grow and prosper. This mere existence of strong and central and successful India is sufficient for centrifugal forces to die out and assimilate into core. Such is their paranoia.

Modern day India and Indic paths are coming out of Islamic shadow in very strong manner. One should understand those who stand for Hindutva in Republic of India are themselves totally under Islamic influence; in terms of way of thinking. The basis of Indic Dharma is liberation, freedom of thought. The Ram-sene type of guys somehow are still struggling to come out of Islamic conditioning of right and wrong. The issue of women and sexuality; issue about goodness/badness of alcohol, issue about goodness/badness and importance of cow, issue about hussein's paintings; issue about modern western culture destroying Indic values which are typically taken up by Hindutva-vaadis, how relevant they are and what replacement do they suggest.

But what are the values which are being destroyed under the juggernaut of globalization? More people drink alcohol, this is considered loss of Indic value system. But taboo of alcohol is primarily Islamic influence. Women are getting more flamboyant about their display of sexuality which is seen as loss of Indic value system. But, confinement of women and their desires and issues is primarily Islamic influence. More people becoming sceptics, questioning the authority of Sadhus and babas and gods, but free-rationalism is basic foundation stone of Indic path. Out of 6 classical Darshans of Indian philosophy, 5 are staunch atheist.

So, in a way, Indian youth is overthrowing the mantle of value-system which is infact arisen due to Islamic supremacy and returning back to free and liberal Indic fold of life; because that is the "Dharma" of Bhaarat. However they are doing it in contemporary manner. This in itself is one way towards that goal. I will reiterate what I have on many occassions. Indic memes cannot defeat Abrahamic memes by becoming to fundamentalist than them, since Islam is as specialized as you can get in monotheistic fundamentalism. India's strength is in diversity.

Unleash the diversity of Indian meme-complex on abrahmic memes and they won't withstand the assault. Christ will end up as some avatar of Vishnu. Mohammad will end up as sai-baba or something similar. Allah will end up as 1001st name of Vishnu. However they try to maintain the separate identity, let us embrace them. They will dissolve.

If Indics started worshipping Christ and Muhammad as one of their many gods, wtf can muslims and christians do about it? over the period of time, statistically, who will assimilate whom? Once this starts happening, the brutal punishment which I am implying for a$$holes of pakjab, sindh, BD, NWFP and Gangetic plains won't be far away.

India should be seen as the punisher by all the punished. Only then will they understand who the boss is. Trying to kill the snake through hands of guest won't earn India respect she desires. With time, this YYY should go. It should only be India which is seen as lethal enforcer of her values alone. The other YY's influence gives abduls a reason to undermine India's authority and they fear and respect other two YY instead. And I guess this is happening post 26/11 and role of Yindoo hell bent on vengeance and reconquista will be seen more and more in the nightmares of paki abduls with time.

[svinayak]

How can Bhaarat be coaxed to take up the Righteous path? That is the whole crux of the matter.

My question really is not about reforming Hinduism but changing others to Indic centric righteous path for helping the entire nation.

[svinayak]

But what are the values which are being destroyed under the juggernaut of globalization? More people drink alcohol, this is considered loss of Indic value system. But taboo of alcohol is primarily Islamic influence. Women are getting more flamboyant about their display of sexuality which is seen as loss of Indic value system. But, confinement of women and their desires and issues is primarily Islamic influence. More people becoming sceptics, questioning the authority of Sadhus and babas and gods, but free-rationalism is basic foundation stone of Indic path. Out of 6 classical Darshans of Indian philosophy, 5 are staunch atheist.

What you are mentioning are all western centric westernization and not globalization. That is the key difference.
All these cultural changes are western inspired media based social engineering and promoted by MNC for promoting the international brands inside a huge demographic market. You need to understand this. The western trained sociologists have fine tuned their media and message to direct the new youth to the brand images and marketing for the consumption of the western MNC product. That was the purpose of educating and training large group of Indian sociologists in the last 40 years.These sociologists who were focused on social problem in Indian society in the 70s and 80s suddenly became experts in marketing and media ad for global products in the 90s and later. If you look carefully you will see several key examples.
Indian ethos has to be modernized with Indian values and thoughts. Maculytes cannot do this.

[RayC]

Wow!

What is the solution?

[Prem]

Essenstial Struggle is about the survival of Bharat in india and its a long one .

[Atri]

But what are the values which are being destroyed under the juggernaut of globalization? More people drink alcohol, this is considered loss of Indic value system. But taboo of alcohol is primarily Islamic influence. Women are getting more flamboyant about their display of sexuality which is seen as loss of Indic value system. But, confinement of women and their desires and issues is primarily Islamic influence. More people becoming sceptics, questioning the authority of Sadhus and babas and gods, but free-rationalism is basic foundation stone of Indic path. Out of 6 classical Darshans of Indian philosophy, 5 are staunch atheist.

What you are mentioning are all western centric westernization and not globalization. That is the key difference.
All these cultural changes are western inspired media based social engineering and promoted by MNC for promoting the international brands inside a huge demographic market. You need to understand this. The western trained sociologists have fine tuned their media and message to direct the new youth to the brand images and marketing for the consumption of the western MNC product. That was the purpose of educating and training large group of Indian sociologists in the last 40 years.
Indian ethos has to be modernized with Indian values and thoughts. Maculytes cannot do this.

I think Macaulaytes have their part to play as well. However, there are forces/people which are trying to rediscover their identity after being a macaulay putra during childhood. There are many of them. The macdonalds is getting popular yes, but so is vada-paav

I think macaulay was necessity of time. And I feel that slowly, he will fade-out. I can't explain the reason why I feel so at this moment. But, there are forces which are working towards overthrowing macaulay's legacy yet being contemporary and Indic. BRF is one of such forces. There are several Orkut-facebook communities which draw tremendous people and get educated. There are thousands of blog-writers who are beginning to propagate the contemporary Indic outlook towards life and world. Not only on internet, but this trend is slowly seen in print-media as well, most notable in regional languages. All this contributes towards shifting the emerging picture towards an arbitrary point which is considered by most of the contributors as good for India OR satisfying the Indic terms.

Macaulay is required still to shake the people out of centuries of dormancy. Now that the awakening is complete, sections of society are moving towards shifting the picture towards Indic rise on Indic terms. There are other geo-political events (partition of India, for example) which contributed towards this cause. There are several other events which are happening and are expected to happen in near future which will contribute towards de-macaulization.

I think it is happening.

[Jarita]

What is the appropriate economic construct for India?
From an avowed capitalist I've transformed to someone rather unsure of where we should stand (the more I read the more unsure I am ). Often we are caught in the capitalist, communist and socialist dialogue.
What is the construct that sustained Bharatiya civilization for over 10,000 years till the east India company? The capitalist model has raped the planet and relies on cheap labor and goods from the ex colonies. It is not sustainable.
Can some of the gurus elucidate what is the Bharatiya construct is that that we need to readopt?

[svinayak]

Often we are caught in the capitalist, communist and socialist dialogue.
What is the construct that sustained Bharatiya civilization for over 10,000 years till the east India company? The capitalist model has raped the planet and relies on cheap labor and goods from the ex colonies. It is not sustainable.
Can some of the gurus elucidate what is the Bharatiya construct is that that we need to readopt?

These issues have been deeply discussed and brainstormed for 50 years. Read this book and the website.
BTW welcome home to the final stretch of the debate
http://deendayalupadhyaya.org/economics.html

Integral Humanism
http://deendayalupadhyaya.org/inte_book.html

[Prem]

Often we are caught in the capitalist, communist and socialist dialogue.
What is the construct that sustained Bharatiya civilization for over 10,000 years till the east India company? The capitalist model has raped the planet and relies on cheap labor and goods from the ex colonies. It is not sustainable.
Can some of the gurus elucidate what is the Bharatiya construct is that that we need to readopt?

These issues have been deeply discussed and brainstormed for 50 years. Read this book and the website.
BTW welcome home to the final stretch of the debate
http://deendayalupadhyaya.org/economics.html

Integral Humanism
http://deendayalupadhyaya.org/inte_book.html

Smilar enquiry in Future Leadership thread. India of now cant but Indic India can,should and must provide alternative wholesome development model for humanity. ME orgined ideologies have run their course and tortured souls must be balmed.

[svinayak]

Plz post it in the leadership thread

[Rahul M]

Jarita wrote
Till the Hindu personal law was instituted Hindu women were worse off than an average Muslim woman (not talking about vedic times - talking abt the middle ages) - not only could the male have multiple spouses but the females had no recourse to divorce (unlike Sharia), widow marriage was frowned upon (unlike Sharia) and female infanticide was rampant (unlike Sharia). I am not including Sati etc which are not practised today. And of course the dowry system - the Muslim woman gets Mehr however meagre.

not quite. I don't know which period you are talking of specifically, but at least the basis of civil laws tell a different story.
in the arthashastra for instance, there's a quite detailed civil code. it's not exactly vedic times and acted as a guide for civil laws well into the middle ages.
there was the concept of divorce for various causes (cruelty, incompatibility, adultery), either spouse could initiate that proceeding. the divorced woman was also entitled to all her streedhana and anything that was gifted to her by her husband and a certain amount for regular expenses. the rest passed on to the husband's family. the claims to the husbands properties were forfeit if she remarried. she still retained the claims on streedhana. similar laws applied to widows and a distinction was made between those remarried and those who did not, implying widow remarriage was an accepted truth.
as for polygamy, a second wife was acceptable only in the case where (from memory)
a) the couple were childless after a specified number of years (10 years IIRC)
b) the man could support both wives and so on

the concept of dowry emerged with streedhana, since the bride could be far away and may not be around to stake her claim when her father died, she was given her share of the ancestral property at the time of marriage in the form of valuables. she retained the right to these throughout her life. this concept which was fine for its time had been mutilated beyond recognition starting from the medieval period.

[Jarita]

Can the mod please delete the multiple identical posts. I am unable to delete. Just one version is fine to get the point across I think
Thanks in advance

[Jarita]

Interview with Joseph Atwill of "Caesers Messiah".
It sheds light on the creation of a passive ultra ahimsa toting brand Gandhi. The brand was promoted and developed (quite different from the actual man) to neuter the Indian population.
It is also worrying when one thinks of all the messianic predictions around 2012. It is almost a build up to something that can be controlled and a handy scapegoat (the so called anti christ who is likely to be whoever challenges the status quo). We need a "mule" in India

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNJf83b ... re=related

[V_Raman]

the gurus here are sometimes amazing. anytime anyone points out the ills of hindu society, there is always an historical idealistic explanation and how it has morphed into something bad today.

well that doesnt help in anyway does it?

[Sanku]

the gurus here are sometimes amazing. anytime anyone points out the ills of hindu society, there is always an historical idealistic explanation and how it has morphed into something bad today.

well that doesnt help in anyway does it?

Clearly it does, the reformation movement was based on exactly such historical and cultural analysis to justify why the current behavior was incorrect and not Indic.

As recently as two year back Prez Pratibha Patil (as then Gov of Rajsthan) told the Rajsthani people to give more freedom to their Womenfolk etc and explained that the Purdah practice was not a Rajputana practice but one adopted after incidents like that of Rani Padmini.

All that does not help in your opinion?

[rkirankr]

the gurus here are sometimes amazing. anytime anyone points out the ills of hindu society, there is always an historical idealistic explanation and how it has morphed into something bad today.

well that doesnt help in anyway does it?

If you actually see/understand the Hindu society through ages, there were many practises adopted to safe guard the society or part of community at a point of time in the history. These practises later on became rituals without people understanding the essense of why it is present in the first place.

That does not mean today ills are not present. The only issue is the reformation has to come from within the society based on the interpretation of scriptures /texts/cultures. Cannot be rammed down the throat from outside.

[V_Raman]

i am not against understanding historical reasons for the things being the way they are. but the reality is that the rug has been pulled from below -- media (tv/internet etc.).

this phenomenon has no precedent in civilizational history. it could result in indian cultural artifacts reasserting itself quickly or it could result in complete loss of it.

imho there is no stopping of indians becoming modernised liberals. but will the indian cultural artifacts survive? i see a revival/democratization of art forms in TN -- carnatic music / bharatnatyam etc being learned across caste/religion. but if i see bollywood -- i am not that sure.

indians becoming westernized and rediscovering indic spirituality --isnt that dharmic after all ?

[rkirankr]

indians becoming westernized and rediscovering indic spirituality --isnt that dharmic after all ?

I do not think becoming westernized is happening to all. I see people around both relatives and colleagues who are westernised as far as getting fancy gadgets, going on a holiday to disney land etc are concerned but who are trying to follow the dharmic ways and teach dharmic ways to the children with a vengeance. It is more like let us be happy and enjoy in a dharmic way.
10 years back I worked in a college and a colleague of mine predicted (At the height of the IT boom) that in another 10 years most of the rituals cultures will be gone. Now he agrees he was wrong.
A few years back we started a group for our community( I wouldn't want to name) and today it has more that 5000 members , mostly young, upwardly mobile , having travelled across the lands, but very very interested to know about the core of our culture/philosophy. Iam amazed at a few who are MTechs/PhDs in their subjects with good job and also are very good scholars in Indian philosophy.

[RayC]

While all are keen and proud of their heritage, they are also aware of the issues of the present.

They try to maintain a balance.

Some find that abhorring and some don't.

[V_Raman]

balance is the hallmark of a true indian. he embraces what is needed and preserves what is to be preserved.

i mean westernization from the POV of respect, and responsibility.

[Umrao Das]

indians becoming westernized and rediscovering indic spirituality --isnt that dharmic after all ?

For all predicaments like this there is "Ilaj"...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0234542/plotsummary

Circa British rule in India, Harnam betrays a freedom fighter, and as a result is rewarded, but the freedom fighter is killed, leaving his wife, and family devastated and destitute. Years later, the freedom fighter's son, Bharat, has grown up and goes to Britain to study. On his arrival in Britain, he is quite shocked to find that the Indian population settled there, shun India and Indians. He takes it upon himself to try and change their way of thinking, meets with Prithi, a Blondie of Indian origin, and both fall in love. Prithi accompanies him to India, and is appalled at the conditions that Bharat and his family in. Will this shock end their relationship?

koee jab tumhaaraa hriaday tod de
tadapataa huaa jab koee chhod de
tab tum mere paas aanaa pirye
meraa dar khulaa hai, khulaa hee rahegaa, tumhaare liye

abhee tum ko meree jarurat nahee, bahot chaahanewaale mil jaayenge
abhee rup kaa yek saagar ho tum kanwal jitane chaahogee khil jaayenge
darpan tumhe jab daraane lage, jawaanee bhee daaman chhoodaane lage
tab tum mere paas aanaa pirye
meraa sar zukaa hai, zukaa hain rahegaa, tumhaare liye

[RayC]

koee jab tumhaaraa hriaday tod de

NO one an do that to me.

I am not a lily livered Indian.

I am a proud Indian and beyond all divisions that others want to create!

[svinayak]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19534068/Will ... tack-India

[svinayak]

http://pragati.nationalinterest.in/2009 ... apitalism/

PRAGATI: THE INDIAN NATIONAL INTEREST REVIEW

Human capitalism

A discussion on ideas for India’s future with Nandan Nilekani, the Indian entrepreneur and businessman. He currently serves as the Chairman of the new Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI), after a successful career at Infosys Technologies Ltd. He recently published his first book, Imagining India.

Nitin Pai

Even before joining the Indian government to lead the national ID project, Nandan Nilekani — then chairman of Infosys Technologies — was engaged in a number of public policy initiatives. He is the president of the National Council of Applied Economic Research, a member of the National Knowledge Commission, a member of the board of governors of the Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay and is involved in numerous other governmental and nongovernmental initiatives. The range of his interests and his passionate commitment to India’s future comes out in his book Imagining India – Ideas for a new century. As indeed, in his voice when he spoke to Pragati.

How would you define India’s national interest? When we posed this question to Jaswant Singh, he said it was the preservation of the resilient core of Indian society that is the heart of India’s national interest, because it is Indian society that keeps the wheels turning whatever is the political structure of the state. According to K Subrahmanyam, India’s national interest is to ensure high rates of growth, alleviate poverty and ensure good governance.

Anything that we can do to make the country stronger, more equitable, more secure, more fair and which can truly leverage the extraordinary opportunity—that would be the national interest. The definition of Indian society is amorphous and is prone to multiple interpretations. My view is that it is very rare that nations get an opportunity to lift a billion people out of poverty. And due to a confluence of events that I have described in my book, we have a truly extraordinary opportunity that comes once in a millennium. It is in our national interest to make the most out of that opportunity and achieve economic independence and fulfilment for all our citizens—doing that would automatically address the other challenges that we have.

[brihaspati]

Purely economic development, and prosperity alone is a good theory. But how far is it feasible as a stand alone policy?

Will internal and external factors/movements/ideologies that thrive on non-prosperity (as well as lack of capacity development to utilize economic opportunities) allow economic development and prosperity attainment for "all"? How much are the costs involved in neutralizing those ideologies/movements? How will such costs impact the very development of economy and prosperity?

This super concentration of attention on one aspect of national life as the super panacea, probably comes from success in economic entrepreneurship. Such a success can give an impression of invincibility of that method only. But the national life is regulated not only be economics (as Marxists would model and have us believe) - but also by obsession about power and excess consumption by interested groups.

A comprehensive programme is required - and stressing only on economic prosperity as the cure all - will mask important pitfalls and dangers that can completely unravel the proposed strategy.

[Jarita]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19534068/Will ... tack-India

Thks
Whose narrative is this?

[brihaspati]

There is a potential hotspot in BD. The case against the accused involved in the assassination of Mujibur Rehman is heading towards closure. Already, one of the last living descendant/remnants of that massacre has been attacked. The BDR uprising happened when the new gov was moving ahead apparently with prosecution of "war criminals" and after the visting TSP dignitary expressed anxiety over such a move. Post BDR uprising, that "war crimes" initiative has slipped into a backburner somewhat. If the "assassination" case actually proceeds to completion, this can probably trigger another paranoid "jihadi" reaction. It is worrying given the surrounding scenario of Northern/central India and the Gangetic plains - TSP/PRC and Maoists.

[brihaspati]

The Americans are doing a repeat of Nixons' visit. This implies that the Obamaic line of stabilizing the AFG front and withdrawing with good face is now in its second phase. USA has gone back to its racial and religious straitjackets to decide that it needs TSP to survive and is yet reliable or useful as a stooge.

The US admin is now drawing in PRC into the bargaining. Here, once the decision to preserve TSP has been taken, TSP's infantile disorder of demanding freedom to act on Indian territory or gradually incorporate or destabilize at least the northern productive areas will have to be dealt with. Here China will be most willing to give greater support/concessions to TSP territorially for to Chinese current elite - India has to be broken up or destroyed so that no economic rival remains in Asia, and the road to IOR opens up without any blockage.

It is this Chinese willingness to give more to TSP that will and perhaps has already forced the USA to open up bragaining with PRC. Given that the northern half of India has been more or less homogenized politically under the INC, at least electorally, with sole outliers being MP and Gujarat, and Bihar and WB slated to be electoral targets in the coming phases, the GOI will have a massive official legitimacy to negotiate on international affairs.

A degree of concession on J&K to both separatists as well as TSP type Jihadis is likely - and will be justified on the basis of "bringing peace", stability to the region, and safeguarding the economic development programme within India. At least this is how it will be sold to and by the media. The people may or may not fall for it and the danger for GOI lies in the potential political costs once the real agenda of TSP+PRC+USA(+UK/EU) becomes clear in its fallout. For this reason, the process will be kept under tight wraps and will only perhaps be presented as inevitable/unavoidable/reluctantly but forced to go into considering the "heart rending consequences otherwise" for the "aam aadmi" etc.

I would like to request all my gentle detractors here who were quite disappointed with my suggestion, that the "north" may be unable to resist a concerted and coordinated move by external forces with internal tacit/deluded/"misguided" help - to think again. It should not be taken as a titally negative thinking. If it happens, it will force ruptures within tightly linked and networked family groups where people will be forced to choose between collaboration to preserve valued material assets and migration/flight to preserve ideological/cultural values. Unless such a rupture is forced on the society - the essential fighting capacity of the society to resist such external manipulation is compromised.

[Manish_Sharma]

I would like to request all my gentle detractors here who were quite disappointed with my suggestion, that the "north" may be unable to resist a concerted and coordinated move by external forces with internal tacit/deluded/"misguided" help - to think again. It should not be taken as a titally negative thinking. If it happens, it will force ruptures within tightly linked and networked family groups where people will be forced to choose between collaboration to preserve valued material assets and migration/flight to preserve ideological/cultural values. Unless such a rupture is forced on the society - the essential fighting capacity of the society to resist such external manipulation is compromised.

It's just the heart breaking raw truth behind your gentle words which takes time to get digested, Brihaspati. Like this above post you have written.

Sorry for my simpleton mind, but I would be very grateful if you can explain what the above part of your post means, I am unable to understand it. I would be very grateful if you can explain this to me.

[Jarita]

A degree of concession on J&K to both separatists as well as TSP type Jihadis is likely - Unless such a rupture is forced on the society - the essential fighting capacity of the society to resist such external manipulation is compromised.

Problem is that with all these ruptures we keep losing territory.
What are the possible alignments that can be made to avoid precisely this scenario? We don't have a Soviet Union anymore
Brihaspati, do you have a sense of what is motivating the present GOI

[Muppalla]

I would like to request all my gentle detractors here who were quite disappointed with my suggestion, that the "north" may be unable to resist a concerted and coordinated move by external forces with internal tacit/deluded/"misguided" help - to think again. It should not be taken as a titally negative thinking. If it happens, it will force ruptures within tightly linked and networked family groups where people will be forced to choose between collaboration to preserve valued material assets and migration/flight to preserve ideological/cultural values. Unless such a rupture is forced on the society - the essential fighting capacity of the society to resist such external manipulation is compromised.

Please, Please expand this. Very difficult to understand.

This I beleive about the erosion of core in terms of values which can lead to compromises. Irrespective of the nationalism in the pheriphery, the sheer size will determine the components of compromise with a promiscuous leadership. The core irrespective of corruption or power mongering, it never fiddled with National-compromise in the past. I beleive what you are saying is that the recent events are pointing to a direction where the core is fiddling with such future.

[Umrao Das]

I would like to request all my gentle detractors here who were quite disappointed with my suggestion, that the "north" may be unable to resist a concerted and coordinated move by external forces with internal tacit/deluded/"misguided" help - to think again. It should not be taken as a titally negative thinking. If it happens, it will force ruptures within tightly linked and networked family groups where people will be forced to choose between collaboration to preserve valued material assets and migration/flight to preserve ideological/cultural values. Unless such a rupture is forced on the society - the essential fighting capacity of the society to resist such external manipulation is compromised.

Please, Please expand this. Very difficult to understand.

This I beleive about the erosion of core in terms of values which can lead to compromises. Irrespective of the nationalism in the pheriphery, the sheer size will determine the components of compromise with a promiscuous leadership. The core irrespective of corruption or power mongering, it never fiddled with National-compromise in the past. I beleive what you are saying is that the recent events are pointing to a direction where the core is fiddling with such future.

He is asking you to read the Migration of Jewish faith people to Europe and from there to scatter all over the world, only to be hounded every where till they decided that their home land has to be protected at any cost.

That wisdom will befall on India only when India is screwed to unbearable extent. In the opinion of the author.

Read Exodus if possible by Leon Uris

[brihaspati]

I would like to request all my gentle detractors here who were quite disappointed with my suggestion, that the "north" may be unable to resist a concerted and coordinated move by external forces with internal tacit/deluded/"misguided" help - to think again. It should not be taken as a titally negative thinking. If it happens, it will force ruptures within tightly linked and networked family groups where people will be forced to choose between collaboration to preserve valued material assets and migration/flight to preserve ideological/cultural values. Unless such a rupture is forced on the society - the essential fighting capacity of the society to resist such external manipulation is compromised.

Manish Sharma ji and Muppalla ji,

I think we have already engaged once in the discussion about the "core". For me, as before, the core is simply not a certain population living in a fixed geographical area and whatever they practice. The core is an idea of a certain identity and society which is carried on (or revived) by a living group of people. Further, the external manifestation of this "idea" can change from time to time, but there is always an underlying acknowledgement of continuity and heritage from the past forms.

Thus just what the larger majority of Indian populations practice in their geographic area of the northern plains at a given time point in history, does not necessarily define the core for me. There still are elments of ideologies or beliefs that identify with sources outside of India as their primary affiliation and identity. For such elements, the "continuity" is with something all whose contexts and imagery have no fit with the Indian historical, geographical or anthropological experience.

So any weakening or "fall" of the north, does not necessarily mean that the "core" is compromised.

What, I meant in that brief paragraph, was that there are certain disturbing features in northern Indian politics and the immediate neighbouhood of India that can potentially indicate a degree of political and territorial adjustments. Whether such an adjustment will be seen to be anti-India or not will depend on what "India' means to a given individual or group.

The crisis features as I see them, (which I have also mentioned before), are the situations developing in AFPAK, PRC strategic moves territorially and politically, removal of effective opposition to virtual one party dominance as affected by the electorate of northern India, the reactivation of Maoist violence, intensification of Jihad, and no media or rashtryia attack (and sometimes even tacit participation) to suppress overt attempt at politicization of religious agenda if and only if that attempt is not coming from what can be considered "Hindu".

The AFPAK situation follows so far what I had proposed many months ago - that Obama's policy will be to first stabilize the AFG front and then withdraw saving global face. If the initial military campaign to oust the Talebs fails, then the search will be on to invent a "good Taleban" and force a gov of national consensus. The problem here is of course that the Talebs are just one extension of the Islamic Jihadi thinking of the Paki variety that hopes to revive a Caliphate, with the other extensions being the pro-Taleb portions of TSPA and ISI. Without going into the elaborate details I have given before, my estimate is that for various reasons, the US will be forced to withdraw. In doing this they will still want to retain a toehold on the subcontinent and they will not consider India as a more reliable ally than TSP (again due to racial and theological shortsightedness). The civilian gov of TSP will be forced to retreat virtually to the south, whereas the southern AFG, Pakjab, POK forms a virtually semi-independent Islamic state controlled by Talebjabis and protected by the claims of possessing nukes. The USA may actually allow this to happen to prevent further strengthening of PRC handle in this area. The PRC can and perhaps will give less conditional support to Talebjabis, because it wants to displace USA as the key power in the region and it wants India destroyed to eliminate economic competition and gain undisputed access to IOR.

Here the Talebjabis can actually bargain with both to extract protection of Talebjabi efforts to expand into India. (A Taleb spokesperson has already expressed such pious aspirations). For PRC, Talebjabi expansion into India is actually welcome for its own strategic reasons. For USA it can become a necessary bargaining point to concede. And the first casualty of such understanding will be Indian claim on J&K. Such concessions need not look alarming externally at first. And I think, if it takes the form of the "Irish" settlement, it will indicate that the USA+UK have at least the bargaining upperhand for the moment.

The GOI is taking steps to appear belligerent and "strong" along the eastern borders. But whether GOI can manage four different fronts surrounding the north is a different issue. Here the encirclement of the northern plains are being effected by Jihadi+TSPA incursions into J&K, possible posturings on Aksai by PRC, PRC moves around AP in the far east and reactivation of separatist violence in NE, the Maoist reactivation in the east and centre, and Jihadi terror in the west and south.

All these factors taken together may not be manageable, given acceptance of fractured identities and claims of excluvism. The ineffectivity of "fighting back" can come from a genuine dilemma of hesitation to hit back on people whom you have been taught to see also to be "Indians", but who could now themselves be hesitating as to identities. A political and military retreat may mean temporary loss of territory or manpower, but actually forces people to choose sides. Those who will find it absolutely unacceptable to compromise on the "core" ideas will migrate/flee to consolidate elsewhere. Such a physical separation also disrupts, family-social-friendship-identity networks that sometimes binds our freedom to act. This is what I meant.

[Jarita]

Situation is like being on a small area of land and surrounded by Danavas who keep closing in. I will take the liberty of calling the PRC and TSP danavas since their ethos reflects the most adharmic traits. There is absolutely no value for human life and dignity. When I think of TSP I think of Saurav Kalia which is the tip of the iceberg. There is something severely distorted in both these countries. And we are surrounded by these danavas.
Looking back at our stories, what should we do? It sounds like Mahabharata again but there is no Krishna in sight

[Jarita]

Simultaneously the media in India is questioning the very concept of nationalism. NDTV is now questioning whether the national anthem is mandatory or not.

[brihaspati]

Why look and wait for a Krishna? Even if a Krishna "descends", he will not be able to do anything if the ground is not prepared. Without waiting for a "avataran", what is more important is to realize and identify what is needed or absolutely important to "preserve" and the factors that come in the way of consoldiation of forces to "preserve". Even that very quest to identify and realize will have a consolidation effect where larger numbers of people come to realize that there are others of similar thoughts.

Ideas generate strength. For what one mind can think may become the thoughts of many and translated into twice as many hands of action.