KV Rao wrote:
RayC wrote:No answer as yet?
I think the armed forces provide a very useful case study for handling the issues of caste, religion etc. However, I find that the question, "we in the army did it (managed the issue), so why can't you (outside the army, in the larger society) do it?" a bit unfair.
Without getting too philosophical, the armed forces are a voluntary organization, and are a tightly-disciplined corporate body, and not at all a democracy, one might say it is totalitarian which is an appropriate way to organize it, so it's not a pejorative. One joins the army with the expectation that there are rules of conduct, standards of behavior, cultural norms etc. to be followed, and the organization makes sure that no one steps out of line.
Real life in larger society is not like that; one is born as an Indian, there is no choice, and one is born into a particular religion (normally no choice for most people), furthermore, one is supposed to be free to grow and aggrandize oneself in any way that one sees fit (subject to minimal constraints imposed by a democracy). That includes being obsessed with one's religion, promoting oneself as a member of a particular religion etc. In the army you can kick someone out if they act like a X first, and as a soldier second or third. In a democracy, it is a person's right (though we may not like it) to see himself as an X first, and as an Indian second, or third or not at all, and still have all the rights of an Indian. (as an aside, notice how the self-styled great patriot Bal Thackeray was angry with Sachin Tendulkar for saying he is an Indian first and a Maharashtrian second? They both have the right to say what they did and to propagate their beliefs, though we may value Tendulakar's belief higher).
The challenge for India is how to keep its people free in a maximal sense (not just in the sense of not being ruled by foreigners), while retaining the cohesion to act together in the collective interest. It's several orders of magnitude more complex than the related problem solved by the armed forces. I don't mean that the armed forces had a small problem, or that we shouldn't be appreciative of how well they solved it, it is just that their problem definition doesn't scale up to the civilian society's problem.
I won’t deny that the Army is a totalitarian organisation. Yet, it has avenues to redress issues.
I would never suggest replicate it. I only suggest, slowly get the public to realise the importance of being an Indian, beyond our divides.
I appreciate that many find their sub-nationalism supreme like Bal and Raj and Karunanidhi. But if we wear our Indic and other values on our sleeve and flaunt it before ‘others’, then we have to think again. I heard an interview of Nassaruddin Shah who advised Muslims not to flaunt their difference. I know the family fairly well and I daresay they are any less of an Indian than I.
India is going through a churn. Let us help India and not divide it is all that I am trying to project
I am sorry I bring the Army example, but that is what I have seen and experienced. If I were a corporate head honcho, I would have given examples from my experience from that view. There are many who find it offensive that I give example from my life (not you)! I can’t give examples of Bill Clinton’s life can I? I am an open book and I have qualm sharing personal details and not be what is a Mukhawta (mask)! Again, it is the fault of upbringing! Lies and falsehood was frowned upon!
In a democracy you have the right to say and do what you want. Do you have the right from stopping me that liberty?
The Army, as far as I understand, is not a corporate body. It is loss making organisation exchequer wise, but it ensures that the exchequer and the country functions in safe environments.
Another thing that perplexes me is that if some community is doing something against the country's interest, why not say it straight and then take on the questions? Why cloak it in double talk?
I have openly called to question the Imam of Jama Mazjid's statement and Deoband's on TV over Bande Mataram.
If Muslims in Pakistan can sing Pakistan Paindabad, what is the big deal over Bande Mataram?
I find the last Pope's call to harvest souls in Asia as most reprehensible and antediluvian.
I say this openly and not cloak it in double talk or act coy like a teenage girl!
Just because I said I am not a Hindu has people like Manish Sharma and Pullikeshi and some others after my blood.
Even as I say so, Ma Kali is my prime deity! She and Shiv are our kul deities and I respect our families religious sentiments, even as I proclaim that I am not a Hindu! I attend the family Kali Puja every year without fail. Am I not an Indian believing in religious issues as a part of family heritage, even if not a true Hindu, having renounced religion?
I stay awake in the wee hours to hear Mahalaya, the start of Durga Puja! It is so powerful! Yet, I say I am not a Hindu. It is my Indic roots! Proud of it!
Must I be a Hindu to be able to survive.
I know this is OT, but have I no right to survive as an Indian even if I don't profess the majority religion?
It reminds me of this:Shylock:
I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands,
organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same
food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases,
heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter
and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If
you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?
And if you wrong us, do we not revenge? If we are like you in the
rest, we will resemble you in that
With total humility may I ask, non Hindus have no right to exist and be heaped scorn?
I agree much has been done in history and even in the present to upset India, but why should the descendants or those who are not involved in the shenanigans currently suffer when they stand shoulder to shoulder with the majority community? And some have done more than some of the majority community for the country? Can we forget the contributions of the Tatas, Azim Premji, CQMH Abdul Hamid and others of the non majority community?
Noon, in the UK is proud to be an Indian as so is Keith Vaz.
Let us unite and not divide!
if things are going wrong, it must be said openly and not obliquely.
Any thread on the Sadhvi or that Colonel and Malegaon?
I agree it was a fitting answer, but not from an Army officer!
I feel violated!
I assure you my blood boils too at these indignities heaped on my Nation!
But I would do nothing to embarrass my Nation!
It is not that I don't know Hinduism. I corrected my unit's Panditji (Religious Teacher) when he was reciting the Chandipath!
I also said the sermon for Christmas!
I embrace the greatness of India!
I am proud of India and it is matter of great pride that I was born as an Indian!