Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 12 Nov 2009 15:58

Mods I had started this new thread in the strat forum:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 14#p770914

guess it was a mistake

, can I cross post it to Future Strategic Scenario for Indian Subcontinent thread?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Nov 2009 17:15

you may but before that you should also edit that post which has at least one glaring mistake (hint : the so-called letter is false since macaulay never said such a thing).

may be you are very enthusiastic about these things but do consider that these topics may have been treated here not once but many times. perhaps it would be better to lurk for a few days before to acquaint yourself with BR before going to town with your thoughts ?

for example, then you could have avoided this mistake of posting in this thread on a topic that has absolutely nothing to do with military issues and should have been posted in forum feedback ?
just a piece of friendly advice.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 12 Nov 2009 19:12

Manish: As the Chankian RahulM says, you may post it. Others may delete it pronto.

I am going to stretch another forum "rule" just a bit, and suggest that you take the thesis and look at posting it at the India Discussion Forum (india forum). What you will find is
a) enthusiastic acceptance
b) total redundancy
because this (in many forms) is posted there ad infinitum and in the opinion of some (incl me) ad nauseum.

BTW, Rahul, HOW can you assert that Lawd MacAulay said no such thing? The letter SHOWS his picture, no?

Clearly it was written down by someone who was sitting in the Press Gallery of the British House of Lawds beside all the Ladies sitting with chloroform pads and "smelling salts" ready to faint at every pompous declaration made by their respective Lawds?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 12 Nov 2009 21:09

Rahul M wrote:you may but before that you should also edit that post which has at least one glaring mistake (hint : the so-called letter is false since macaulay never said such a thing).

may be you are very enthusiastic about these things but do consider that these topics may have been treated here not once but many times. perhaps it would be better to lurk for a few days before to acquaint yourself with BR before going to town with your thoughts ?

for example, then you could have avoided this mistake of posting in this thread on a topic that has absolutely nothing to do with military issues and should have been posted in forum feedback ?
just a piece of friendly advice.

Rahul I found this letter here:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... rd#p624971
Poster's name is P_Saggu, last few weeks I have been reading through History threads and that's where I found it.

Rahul, Enqyoob sorry again for the mistake, Thanks for your patience and guidance.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 12 Nov 2009 21:12

Seriously, Rahul, I would like to see the proof that the letter/speech report is bogus. Great thing to introduce at the kinds of parties that I am invited to (very few any more..

) , in order to facilitate a swift exit.

That letter is as much a part of the Holy Record as the statistic that "33% of all NASA scientists and engineers are Indian".

Hi Manish: My evil 4th cousin thrice removed (now shaheed at BRF) used to post a lot at said forum, so I have nothing but admiration for the place.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 12 Nov 2009 21:49

RayC wrote:I remember this since a Sikh JCO demanded to have a granthi in my unit. I told the JCO, who had insisted, to convert the men and then come back!

A couple of questions here Ray C sir.
1. Can a JCO be a part of a regiment, in which majority of the people are not from his own caste/community/religion. The reason I ask this is that most of the JCOs would have come through promotions in their own regiments. Or is it a special case like ASC, Signals etc. where things are slightly different?
2. How are the "JCO Religious teachers" recruited? Are they combatised trades? Also is it a mandate that the JCO religious teacher for Hindus has to be a Brahmin (or a caste generally involved in Poojas etc.)?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Nov 2009 22:24

BTW, Rahul, HOW can you assert that Lawd MacAulay said no such thing?
..................
Seriously, Rahul, I would like to see the proof that the letter/speech report is bogus.

OK, I'm claiming that I've been misquoted (

) and in stead of

the so-called letter is false since macaulay never said such a thing

what I actually said was :

there is no evidence to support the idea that macaulay ever said such a thing

as for proof, koenraad elst claimed that he had gone through the brit parliamentary transcripts and never found such a quote, let alone by macaulay. moreover, at the time mentioned macaulay was apparently half a world away in India !!

since I haven't done the search myself but in general trust elst to be BS-free on such an open issue I would wager that he is correct.
I think the article is available at his site.
the other quote attributed to macaulay (something on the lines of "all the knowledge contained in hindu and muslim literature would be less than one good shelf of european literature") is however taken to be genuine.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Nov 2009 22:31

2. How are the "JCO Religious teachers" recruited? Are they combatised trades? Also is it a mandate that the JCO religious teacher for Hindus has to be a Brahmin (or a caste generally involved in Poojas etc.)?

I guess some minimum physical standard is necessary but I regularly see ads from IA asking for pandits etc as a separate category.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 13 Nov 2009 01:21

in general trust elst to be BS-free on such an open issue

Unfortunately, 4 exactly the same reason, Prof. Elst has been declared a non-person in/by the same parties.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 13 Nov 2009 08:20

Sachin wrote: A couple of questions here Ray C sir.
1. Can a JCO be a part of a regiment, in which majority of the people are not from his own caste/community/religion. The reason I ask this is that most of the JCOs would have come through promotions in their own regiments. Or is it a special case like ASC, Signals etc. where things are slightly different?
2. How are the "JCO Religious teachers" recruited? Are they combatised trades? Also is it a mandate that the JCO religious teacher for Hindus has to be a Brahmin (or a caste generally involved in Poojas etc.)?

There are two types of Infantry Battalions:

(a) One class (though it can have two classes)
(b) Mixed.

In one class units, the JCOs and troops are from the same class (communities). In a mixed unit, it will be an all India composition.

The Religious Teachers are recruited through open advertisement in newspapers and they go through the recruitment procedure. The have to have certificates of their competence from their religious institutions before recruitment.

No, a Hindu RT need not be a Brahmin.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 13 Nov 2009 15:49

As far as I know, a certificate from the religious institution is required.

For a Hindu RT, the qualification required is an undergraduate degree in Sanskrit....

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Nov 2009 09:05

Gaur wrote: Bullpup Insas.

AFAIK, IA was not too impressed with them.

I would like to be shown one Indian made or Indian designed item that any Indian (outside of BRF) is impressed with straight away and not critical. Incompetence and incapability are just as much Indian characteristics as a reputation of incompetence and incapability. Half of all Indian goods are bad and the other half are considered bad even if they are not.

Maybe this should go in the core Bharatiya values discussion thread.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 14 Nov 2009 11:12

What is the biggest conventional bomb in India's arsenal(1000 lb?)?

Can the SU-30 MKI carry it?

Do we have anything along the lines of MOAB/FOAB?

koti · Post by **koti** » 14 Nov 2009 14:49

^^Also do we have any bunker busting type of weapons?

And is it possible to use the principle of ERA to shield high value bunkers from bunker busting weapons? APFSDS rounds and bunker busters use same principle to burst through fortification.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 14 Nov 2009 22:56

I would like to be shown one Indian made or Indian designed item that any Indian (outside of BRF) is impressed with straight away and not critical.

Alloo!

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 15 Nov 2009 01:34

koti wrote:
And is it possible to use the principle of ERA to shield high value bunkers from bunker busting weapons?

I think the ERA plates in this case would have to be huge in order to work against something like the 5000lb GBU-28

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2009 06:48

VijayKumarSinha wrote:What is the biggest conventional bomb in India's arsenal(1000 lb?)?

Can the SU-30 MKI carry it?

Do we have anything along the lines of MOAB/FOAB?

I think there was a cylindrical 4000 pounder that the Canberras could carry in an internal bay. The Su 30 does not carry that AFAIK - I don't even know if India keeps those bombs in its inventory. I do not (offhand) recall reading about the Su 30 carrying anything more than 250 kg dumb bombs - and I am beginning to suspect that in general dumb bombs will get replaced by smarter munitions. In that sense an Su 30 with dumb bombs is like transporting hay in your Porsche. Of course there are pictures and videos (some my own) of the Su 30 with dumb bombs

To my knowledge India has nothing like the MOAB other than napalm which is a fuel-air explosive. Having said that I recall that the Prithvi was supposed to have hajaar different warhead types and I wonder if an FAE was one type? In any case Prithvi carries no more than 1000 kg/2000 lb.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Nov 2009 08:38

I don't think IAF operates anything heavier than the KAB-500 bombs which would come to around 1100 lbs. and yes, they do operate FAE on the Mig-27 IIRC, may be on other aircrafts as well.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 15 Nov 2009 12:48

Noob question :
I gather that tank barrel's are either smooth-bore or rifled. Smooth bore to fire missiles, APFSDS, HEAT,HE and rifled barrel for HESH. My question is whether it is possible to fire both HEAT and HESH using the same type of barrel?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Nov 2009 13:00

HESH can only be fired from rifled guns. APFSDS from both (uses contra-rotating bands in rifled bores) I guess HEAT rounds can also be fired from rifled guns in same way but since HEAT tank rounds have been mostly superseded by APFSDS tank rounds, don't think it has been tried.

only two tank guns used rifled guns, the arjun and challenger. challenger is moving on to smoothbore to maintain commonality with other NATO countries.

at the moment arjun is the only tank AFAIK that continues to use rifled gun due to the IA's unique requirements for firing HESH. it can of course fire HESH, APFSDS and lahat missiles.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 15 Nov 2009 17:27

Rahul M wrote:HESH can only be fired from rifled guns. APFSDS from both (uses contra-rotating bands in rifled bores) I guess HEAT rounds can also be fired from rifled guns in same way but since HEAT tank rounds have been mostly superseded by APFSDS tank rounds, don't think it has been tried.

Umm, If a rifled gun can fire HESH, HEAT and APFSDS then why has the whole world switchted to smooth-bore guns? Is it because they are easier to make and maintain?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 15 Nov 2009 19:19

AFAIK HEAT rounds cannot be fired from rifled guns.
Well, technically they can be fired, but the effectiveness of the round would drastically decrease. This is because the spin imparted by rifling would create centrifugal force which would disperse the jet of metal.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2009 19:47

Google aunty tells me that the two main advantages of smoothbore are
1) reduced wear and tear
2) ability to fire missiles

Rifled barrels are accurate to longer distances and can fire bunker and fortification busting shots like HESH - not possible with smooth bore.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 15 Nov 2009 20:29

shiv wrote:Google aunty tells me that the two main advantages of smoothbore are
1) reduced wear and tear
2) ability to fire missiles

Rifled barrels are accurate to longer distances and can fire bunker and fortification busting shots like HESH - not possible with smooth bore.

Shiv's post made me think. I was wondering why Unkil would let go of the bold part? What do they have for Infantry Fire support instead. Then I realised they have this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1128_Mobile_Gun_System

For all the proponents of Unkil/ Western smoothbore philosophy, MGS uses Rifled gun.

Now we poor SDREs uses MBT only for Infantry Support so we want to fire everything possible from our poor old rifled guns.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Nov 2009 22:10

Gaur wrote:AFAIK HEAT rounds cannot be fired from rifled guns.
Well, technically they can be fired, but the effectiveness of the round would drastically decrease. This is because the spin imparted by rifling would create centrifugal force which would disperse the jet of metal.

same is true for APFSDS rounds. read how they are fired from rifled bores (arjun's gun for example) contra-rotating bands on the rounds are used that keep the sabot inside un-rotated.
so theoretically HEAT can also be fired using same principle. but all this is moot since tank fired HEAT rounds are obsolete tech.

Umm, If a rifled gun can fire HESH, HEAT and APFSDS then why has the whole world switchted to smooth-bore guns? Is it because they are easier to make and maintain?

the world finds no need for anything from a tank gun other than APFSDS and now missiles. it is easier to fire APFSDS rounds from smoothbore guns. same is true for missiles.
the life is higher as there is less wear and tear.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 16 Nov 2009 03:47

One other question, are modern howitzers smoothbore or rifled?

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 16 Nov 2009 21:39

Newbie Question:

Why do some helicoptors have those rails (rods) instead of wheels?

How are these helicoptors taxied on the ground (say from the hangar to the field for take-off or vice-versa) from one spot to another. I saw some specially built carriages to taxi these craft, but surely it shall be very difficult to land with the rails exactly on the carriages (cannot get the picture now) How is the Dhruv towed by the users?

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 17 Nov 2009 00:33

Hi....Can anybody please identify this weapon ??

Thanks

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 17 Nov 2009 00:47

^^^
A Solid state electric powered laser gun according to Wired:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/06 ... state-las/

Edit: Just realized this is in the wrong thread. Please post such queries in the newbie/miscellaneous thread.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Nov 2009 01:00

Mayuresh wrote:Newbie Question:

Why do some helicoptors have those rails (rods) instead of wheels?

How are these helicoptors taxied on the ground (say from the hangar to the field for take-off or vice-versa) from one spot to another. I saw some specially built carriages to taxi these craft, but surely it shall be very difficult to land with the rails exactly on the carriages (cannot get the picture now) How is the Dhruv towed by the users?

mainly low weight and ease of maintenance. those rods are called skids btw.

the skid-fitted helos are lifted on wheeled trolleys for moving around. (as to the exact procedure how it is done you better ask enqyoob)

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 17 Nov 2009 01:39

^^
I never knew that. Thanks for the info.

now we need a picture.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Nov 2009 01:47

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 17 Nov 2009 02:08

^^^
that is an exaggeration .....the real tow consist of a simple pentagonal frame with 4 independent all-movable wheels...there is a provision for locking the skids onto the frame with clamps built on it.....and of course, it may be a time -consuming process to move a chopper from inside a hanger to the take-off zone , when compared to a chopper with landing gears ( wheels in this case)....moreover the chopper isn't hoisted onto the frame,instead the pneumatic/hydraulic jacks built on the tow are used to hoist the chopper,after the skids have been clamped ( similar to the way in which an F1 car is hoisted during wheel change...I hope you get the point ).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Nov 2009 02:12

ah, thanks for explaining bob. do you have a pic somewhere ?

p.s. why call it an exaggeration though ? looks real enough !

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 17 Nov 2009 02:19

Rahul M wrote:

How did the chopper land exactly on this platform?

And the usual tows that I have seen are much smaller.Just did not know how they were operated. Probably, just like a "jack" is used to hoist a truck when the wheels are changed. I was just wondering about the advantages of the skids as opposed to a tricycle landing gear and could only come up with:
a. Lower Cost
b. Ease of Maintainence

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 17 Nov 2009 03:30

How did the chopper land exactly on this platform?

The Djinn 4-Castor Magic Carpet flies up and does Mid-Air Rendezvous with the chopper and then guides it down to the runway. Check BENIS dhaga 4 details of modern system.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 17 Nov 2009 11:31

Pakistani hacking onslaught makes India a hapless prey

The saga is not new and starts from the partition of the erstwhile British India into two dominions, India and Pakistan. From the very beginning animosity of Pakistan to India has been explicit and from time to time it has been found to change and adopt new strategies with the sole intention – to dismantle the democratic fabric of India and also to balkanize it. However, it has faced reverses too that led to the breakaway by the then East Pakistan, now Bangladesh.

But its deep-rooted hatred to India is unabated and now it has brought to the fore a novel mode of onslaught and it’s hacking. As per hordes of latest reports, hackers from across the border in Pakistan are leaving no stone unturned to build up a determined cyber attack against the country’s websites. Nevertheless, Indian hackers appear to be falling a great deal short in firepower. What is most striking hardly any Indian political party is aware of this phenomenon!

This fact may send a shudder through the backbones of Indians. Reports state that in the region of 40-50 Indian sites are being hacked on a daily basis by Pakistani hackers while about 10 Pakistani sites are being hit by their Indian counterparts. What ails India then? Well, it’s the same reactive stances instead of proactive, the greatest stumbling block for more than last millennium.

There are other factors as well. Studies suggest how the slipshod attitudes of both corporate sector in addition to the government regarding cyber security impede any positive approach. Ethical hacking seems to prevail India still! Who are these ethical hackers? Well, ethical hackers are usually computer security experts who concentrate in penetration testing and related testing methodologies to test out the vulnerability of a company’s information systems.

Nasscom surveys have pointed out that information security threats have created an “unprecedented demand for qualified and experienced information security professionals” but India is yet to get smart to comprehend this crucial issue.

What should India do then? God knows!

I know there's a seperate thread for the IT stuff, but thought this article merits a mention here.

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 17 Nov 2009 22:13

Rahul M wrote:ah, thanks for explaining bob. do you have a pic somewhere ?

p.s. why call it an exaggeration though ? looks real enough !

you mean a pic of dhruv on tows? lemme check if its safe to post it here.
--------------------
exaggeration in the sense that those aren't the tows.
This is a better explanation.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Nov 2009 23:44

thanks bob. I didn't mean the dhruv specifically.

btw, could you have a look at the supercruise discussion in LCA thread and add your inputs ?
TIA.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 18 Nov 2009 03:26

For ppl who want to know about helicopter ground handling:

http://www.tlchelilift.com/index2.html

Apparently "TLC" stands for "Ted's Last Chance" because the company was set up by a person who had cancer.

I can't figure out how they lift the helicopter on to the trolley in India. It's a good bet that they make the pilot lift the craft and then some intrepid soul has to push the trolley under the skids and then let the pilot settle down on it . But these other gadgets put some bar between the skids and jack it up, or attach wheels and then jack up the wheel attachment.