Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rahul M » 15 Nov 2009 13:04

KiranM wrote:^^^ Training with FSB Alpha might be too much to ask. But cross training with Spetsnaz units under GRU would still be highly useful.

Vympel under FSB?? I thought they would be under SVD since their role is external.

Regards,
Kiran

though notionally separate, isn't SVD more like the FCD from kgb times ? SVD and FSB do share men and resources IIRC, a case of joined at the hip.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby KiranM » 15 Nov 2009 13:10

Anshul wrote:I had a good discussion with an IA Captain who had been to CIJWS.
His words were "Its a sham....the buggers have just created an AURA out of nothing".

He said its no better than the actual COIN modules included in the IMA syllabus.Stuff taught at CIJWS ...is regulr wiki material.They don't tell you anything special ....the syllabus is outdated.

He also said "God knows what the amrikis got out of it....they must have taken up the course for its giggle value!".

But its been made mandatory for all units based in NE.

Just speculation, but isn't CIJWS real value in teaching how to blend into local culture and use the niches used by insurgents locally to beat them? Add to that jungle warfare training. Urban CQB training must look drab considering that such 'shoot houses' have come up in every training establishment.
But I remember seeing photos of using bamboos to conceal grenades and who knows what other such 'skills'. Considering the relative quiet in NE, I feel CIJWS more than proved itself. Though the part about outdated syllabus must be true mainly due to the long years of its existence than anything else.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby KiranM » 15 Nov 2009 13:15

Rahul M wrote:
KiranM wrote:^^^ Training with FSB Alpha might be too much to ask. But cross training with Spetsnaz units under GRU would still be highly useful.

Vympel under FSB?? I thought they would be under SVD since their role is external.

Regards,
Kiran

though notionally separate, isn't SVD more like the FCD from kgb times ? SVD and FSB do share men and resources IIRC, a case of joined at the hip.

I suspect it is more of friendly relations and old boys network from KGB era rather than official sanction.
Though FCD aka SVD is hardly in news, I believe all so called FSB actions outside Russia is really their handiwork.
Last edited by KiranM on 15 Nov 2009 13:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 13:16

KiranM wrote:
Anshul wrote:I had a good discussion with an IA Captain who had been to CIJWS.
His words were "Its a sham....the buggers have just created an AURA out of nothing".

He said its no better than the actual COIN modules included in the IMA syllabus.Stuff taught at CIJWS ...is regulr wiki material.They don't tell you anything special ....the syllabus is outdated.

He also said "God knows what the amrikis got out of it....they must have taken up the course for its giggle value!".

But its been made mandatory for all units based in NE.

Just speculation, but isn't CIJWS real value in teaching how to blend into local culture and use the niches used by insurgents locally to beat them? Add to that jungle warfare training. Urban CQB training must look drab considering that such 'shoot houses' have come up in every training establishment.
But I remember seeing photos of using bamboos to conceal grenades and who knows what other such 'skills'. Considering the relative quiet in NE, I feel CIJWS more than proved itself. Though the part about outdated syllabus must be true mainly due to the long years of its existence than anything else.


I have done a course in CIJW School.

They also have eastern Indian language being taught.

I sure would like to know how the Capt found it not worth his while!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 15 Nov 2009 14:50


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Shubham » 15 Nov 2009 19:46

Are all the Officers commanding the flights of Garud from Ground Duty Branch ? and I guess it is mandatory for all officers to undergo the same training as the Commando Airmen.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby kaangeya » 15 Nov 2009 20:48

Anshul,
I had a good discussion with an IA Captain who had been to CIJWS.
His words were "Its a sham....the buggers have just created an AURA out of nothing".


Funny you shd say that. I had a chat with a friend the other day whose uncle's classmate's sister is married to the current commandant's brother-in-law. He says...

You get the point?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ssmitra » 16 Nov 2009 05:10

kaangeya wrote:
Anshul,
I had a good discussion with an IA Captain who had been to CIJWS.
His words were "Its a sham....the buggers have just created an AURA out of nothing".


Funny you shd say that. I had a chat with a friend the other day whose uncle's classmate's sister is married to the current commandant's brother-in-law. He says...

You get the point?


Actually Anshul does have a point, however we do tend to forget a few things.
1. CIJWS is NOT a special forces school in facts its sort of a advanced battle school for regular infantry specializing in CI. The CI module at IMA is targeted towards officers and those leading the units rather than combined training for platoon sized units.
2. No the american's did not train there for giggle's; in fact they took it for exactly for what it was... that is why you had line infantry from their national guard units train there instead of any special forces unit.
3. Depending which unit the IA captain is from he may or may not find the CIJWS useful. I am sure the para units have their training center and some do tend to prefer the Combined commando school to the CIJWS but again they are very different schools. (can't compare IISc to IIT)
4. On a different note there are some who prefer the MARCOS kill house to the NSG center....

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby pmund » 16 Nov 2009 23:56

Fantastic article on SFF. These guys are better than Bond... Bcos THEY ARE REAL!
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... 76533.aspx

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 17 Nov 2009 00:28

ssmitra, The 1st US batches at CIJWS were from their SF units.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rahul M » 17 Nov 2009 00:34

which SF unit ?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby KiranM » 17 Nov 2009 00:53

^^^ IIRC Green Berets.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ssmitra » 17 Nov 2009 02:24

Raja Bose wrote:ssmitra, The 1st US batches at CIJWS were from their SF units.


Raja Babu would you happen to know which unit they cross trained with.
however IIRC most US SF units have after that have either gone to the para center or the HAWS... Not sure if any have tried the PGS in tawang...

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rajeshks » 17 Nov 2009 02:56

KiranM wrote:^^^ An accidental discharge to his head is more 'problematic' than one to his leg.

Regards,
Kiran


I would prefer the first one... :rotfl:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 17 Nov 2009 04:07

The 1st batch iirc was from 1st SFG (based out of Guam or Okinawa) and then a subsequent batch from one of the special forces groups attached to National Guard (19th or 20th SFG).

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ssmitra » 17 Nov 2009 06:17

Raja Bose wrote:The 1st batch iirc was from 1st SFG (based out of Guam or Okinawa) and then a subsequent batch from one of the special forces groups attached to National Guard (19th or 20th SFG).

khoma dada, should have been more clear... which Indian unit did they cross train with.
1st SFG is out of Okinawa. Did not know they were here.
The Unit from Guam was definitely not SFG but Guam army National Guard.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 17 Nov 2009 10:53

They might have x-trained with one of the Para Cdos units (that's usually the norm) but I seem to remember that at least during one instance the US SF trained with an Indian line unit at CIJWS (Raj. Rif. or another). US troops (one of the Alaskan units?) have been to PG coz there was an article on it too.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2009 23:10

I would be interested to know how Indian defence forces are handling this. I know the Indian police have neglected this for ages.
http://flonnet.com/stories/20091204262409300.htm

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sunny y » 19 Nov 2009 12:38


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Dmurphy » 19 Nov 2009 13:48

sunny y wrote:Airport to boost security measures :D

http://in.news.yahoo.com/48/20091119/80 ... -weap.html
A welcome move. Don't like seeing the CISF personnel dragging the longish INSAS around in as sensitive an environment as the airport!

But I've already seen NSG personnel armed with the same weapons at DIAL, the last time i was there.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby prasadha » 19 Nov 2009 21:15

What is this "Longish" comment about INSAS. I've seen INSAS with foldable butts in airports. Don't these weapons act as a deterrent as well as to defend. Won't the "Longish" INSAS deter somebody trying a mischief. I don't see anything wrong in using these weapons.

Prasad

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby abhishekm » 19 Nov 2009 21:52

sunny y wrote:Airport to boost security measures :D

http://in.news.yahoo.com/48/20091119/80 ... -weap.html


While it's nice to see that airport security is being upgraded I wonder if anyone would plug one glaringly obvious loophole:

In many airports, hand baggage (and people) are not checked until after you enter the airport building, complete check-in and then reach the departure lounge. You only need to show ID at the airport entrance, then walk in and get your cabin baggage (ie check-in baggage) passed through the scanner.

Doesn't this pose a severe risk as weapons might be hidden either on a person or in hand baggage? Effectively the sterile zone begins after you enter the building and not before. You can walk up to the departure lounge carrying all the explosives/weapons in the world before you are subjected to a security check prior to boarding aircraft and I think this is very, very risky indeed.

Srinagar airport is an honourable exception and people and luggage are stopped and scanned before they enter the airport building. Ben Gurion airport in Israel also has similar systems in place. And this is unconfirmed (as most security-related stuff in Singapore is) but apparently Changi airport has infra red scanners which scan the car park in front of the departure lounge and detect explosives or weapons before people/luggage get into the terminal.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Surya » 19 Nov 2009 22:11

wrong thread for discussing airport security although there are a lot of glaring loopholes. Problem is one cannot discuss them here without also exposing it.

so lets not go into it

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby abhishekm » 19 Nov 2009 22:33

Surya wrote:wrong thread for discussing airport security although there are a lot of glaring loopholes. Problem is one cannot discuss them here without also exposing it.

so lets not go into it


Agreed on both counts and sorry. Moderators- please feel free to delete the post.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Dmurphy » 19 Nov 2009 23:08

prasadha wrote:What is this "Longish" comment about INSAS. I've seen INSAS with foldable butts in airports. Don't these weapons act as a deterrent as well as to defend. Won't the "Longish" INSAS deter somebody trying a mischief. I don't see anything wrong in using these weapons.

Prasad
Airports can be a crowded place sir, so smaller the gun, the better. And its a well known fact that shorter guns are always preferred over the longer ones in CQB situations. And to me a single 5.56mm bullet firing rifle is a strict no no for commandos. And I also don't like the fact that they'll be facing rugged 7.62mm bullet firing AK-47s and hand grenades with SLRs. Sorry, but the love for desi made equipments shouldn't compromise our boys' safety or effectiveness.

JMT.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ssmitra » 20 Nov 2009 00:58

prasadha wrote:What is this "Longish" comment about INSAS. I've seen INSAS with foldable butts in airports. Don't these weapons act as a deterrent as well as to defend. Won't the "Longish" INSAS deter somebody trying a mischief. I don't see anything wrong in using these weapons.

Prasad


What deterrent. Someone who has planned to attack an airport will not do so because he see's a guard with a big gun.....
Great logic....except someone should let the pigs know...
and as for airport security measures.....only time we should discuss it is after there has been an attack. That way we can always pretend we were the only ones who can gather info from the net and just by looking around. If we see a security lapse don't report it. Just pray you are not there when the lapse is exploited...
Jai Hind...

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 20 Nov 2009 01:40

prasadha wrote:What is this "Longish" comment about INSAS. I've seen INSAS with foldable butts in airports. Don't these weapons act as a deterrent as well as to defend. Won't the "Longish" INSAS deter somebody trying a mischief. I don't see anything wrong in using these weapons.

Prasad

INSAS is an excellent weapon for "the job that it has been designed for".
No weapon can be right for every situation.
First of all, nope, any "longish" weapon would not deter someone from trying mischief.
Do you think that a planned terrorist attack would be abandoned because of the length of the guns the CISF is armed with?
And as long as the terrorists are not wearing BPJs, I would rather have CISF equipped with 9mm rounds in crowded public place than 5.56 NATO rounds.
Also, even with foldable butt, no assault rifle would be as compact as an SMG.
In hostile situations, any soldier would rather have butt resting on his shoulder than otherwise. So, in CQB, a SMG with butt is much better option than a buttless assault rifle.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gagan » 20 Nov 2009 02:11

“I was conferred the AVSM by the Navy, because it was a covert operation... I am sure the SFF men get recognition and awards within their own system.” Just that nobody is saying how.

There was an navy / ?SFF op to take out the pakistan navy ships berthed in chittagong harbor in 71.

I remember a story in BRM I think where a commando dressed as a fisherman was planting a bomb on a pakistani navy ship. He was spotted by the ship's crew and hauled on board. Because he was shivering the pakistanis gave him some hot tea, meanwhile the timer was ticking away. The commando jumped off just in time as the ship blew, with a scalded tongue from the hot tea he had gulped down.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 20 Nov 2009 02:42

^^
Great Story. :D
If you know of more such incidents, please post them.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sunny y » 20 Nov 2009 12:22

Gagan wrote:I remember a story in BRM I think where a commando dressed as a fisherman was planting a bomb on a pakistani navy ship. He was spotted by the ship's crew and hauled on board. Because he was shivering the pakistanis gave him some hot tea, meanwhile the timer was ticking away. The commando jumped off just in time as the ship blew, with a scalded tongue from the hot tea he had gulped down.


:rotfl: :rotfl:
Fantastic work by brave commando.....Gagan Sir, please post about more such incidents if you know any.
And what is BRM ??

Thanks


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 23 Nov 2009 05:40

Assam Rifles to raise specialised commando unit
http://www.assamtribune.com/scripts/det ... nov2309/ne

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 23 Nov 2009 23:50

Per news report the Commando C-130s will be based on Hindan, New Delhi. This was bit of a news because I expected the C-130 sqn to be co-located with 50 Para Bde in Agra. Conjecture will follow that at least a new Para SF battalion, if not an independent Bde may be raised and based at Hindan. 8)

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 24 Nov 2009 01:20

Aditya G wrote:Per news report the Commando C-130s will be based on Hindan, New Delhi. This was bit of a news because I expected the C-130 sqn to be co-located with 50 Para Bde in Agra. Conjecture will follow that at least a new Para SF battalion, if not an independent Bde may be raised and based at Hindan. 8)


Aditya,

It might be because Garuds want to use it too.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 24 Nov 2009 08:23

Garuds are a small unit with only 1 Battalion strength at the moment, that too I suppose is spread across in small teams across air bases. Total sanctioned strength is equivalent of 2 battalions.

I am sure that Garuds will be based onboard with C-130s, but they will probably lack the bayonet strength for typical special op like Cactus. JMHO.


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Lalmohan » 25 Nov 2009 03:11

Dmurphy wrote:
prasadha wrote:What is this "Longish" comment about INSAS. I've seen INSAS with foldable butts in airports. Don't these weapons act as a deterrent as well as to defend. Won't the "Longish" INSAS deter somebody trying a mischief. I don't see anything wrong in using these weapons.

Prasad
Airports can be a crowded place sir, so smaller the gun, the better. And its a well known fact that shorter guns are always preferred over the longer ones in CQB situations. And to me a single 5.56mm bullet firing rifle is a strict no no for commandos. And I also don't like the fact that they'll be facing rugged 7.62mm bullet firing AK-47s and hand grenades with SLRs. Sorry, but the love for desi made equipments shouldn't compromise our boys' safety or effectiveness.

JMT.


high powered guns in confined spaces is a bad idea, bullets riccochet off and can be very dangerous to everyone. 2 of the 26/11 piglets had shot their own fingers off by accident due to this effect whilst killing hostages - as the recent articles (on mumbai thread) revealed. i had expected a 9mm HK5 to bring down the piglets, but it seems that they took quite a few hits before succumbing, could be due to drugs

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 25 Nov 2009 05:08

Aditya G wrote:Garuds are a small unit with only 1 Battalion strength at the moment, that too I suppose is spread across in small teams across air bases. Total sanctioned strength is equivalent of 2 battalions.

I am sure that Garuds will be based onboard with C-130s, but they will probably lack the bayonet strength for typical special op like Cactus. JMHO.


It depends on what they are used for - Op.Cactus was somewhere between a special op. and specialized infantry action and there we used what we had at the time. All ops don't require massive numbers of SF - they will be typically used for small unit actions and very specific tasks (otherwise it is back to the elite infantry debate all over again).

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rahul M » 25 Nov 2009 09:20

what's garud's op mandate ? AFAIK CSAR, sabotage and possible capture of enemy airfields are part of its job definition.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Raja Bose » 25 Nov 2009 09:55

Takeover of hostile airfields and securing them, CSAR are amongst their roles. The sabotage part - nothing public on it.


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