Deterrence

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shiv
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

samuel wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... 77407.aspx

Press Trust Of India
Washington, November 17, 2009
First Published: 22:34 IST(17/11/2009)
Last Updated: 22:54 IST(17/11/2009)

Pakistan has more nuclear weapons than India: report

While Pakistan is estimated to possess 70-90 nuclear weapons, India is believed to have 60-80, claims Robert S Norris and Hans M Kristensen in their latest article 'Nuclear Notebook: Worldwide deployments of nuclear weapons, 2009'.
I have a link that says India had 25 weapons in the 1980s. This news means that India is producing 2 weapons a year - or about 10-15 kg Pu per year.

1974 to mid-80s - 25 weapons
mid 80s to today 50 more weapons.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by RamaY »

Nothing to worry! India can never win a nuke-war anyway. Conveniently nuke weaponisation is against india's ahimsa ethos. Finally deterrence is in the eyes of the opponent.

:rotfl:
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

Well it certainly indicates "Hindu rate of growth" of nuclear weapons no? 8)
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Re: Deterrence

Post by RamaY »

Yes sire! It does represent the "Hindu rate of growth" the pseudo-secular dhimmite leadership achieved in "independent" India.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by NRao »

With estimates of Chinese nukes going into the stratosphere, as a fyi only the following:

2009 :: MULTIMEGATON WEAPONS, The Largest Nuclear Weapons
The largest PRC nuclear weapon

The People's Republic of China has deployed a warhead estimated at 5 megatons on the Dong Feng 5 ICBM (U.S. designation CSS-4). The DF-5 can carry a 3,000-kg warhead to a range of 12,000, while the improved Dong Feng 5A can carry 3,200 kg to a range of 13,000 km.[78] The warhead is probably a high yield version of the design(s) used in the PRC's thermonuclear tests of 1968, 1970, and 1976 (given the limited number of Chinese nuclear tests, an independent warhead design is unlikely).[76] {What? Chicom has same problem as India?}

Estimated deployments of DF-5s are highly uncertain. The first two DF-5 missiles were deployed in silos in 1981,[78] and the force remained at 2 through at least 1984.[79] Estimated numbers deployed were 18 in June 2000, 20 in 2003,[76] and 24 in 2005, although reports vary. From about 1990 to 2000, deployed DF-5s were replaced with improved DF-5As.[75, 77] Reportedly the DF-5 force is currently organized into three missile brigades. The 803rd brigade in Hunan province was established in 1984 and converted to DF-5A missiles by the mid-1990s. The 804th brigade in western Henan province was established in the late 1980s, converted to DF-5A missiles by 2000, and may include missiles based in tunnels. The 818th brigade in Hunan province was established in 1996 and was likely initially equipped with DF-5A missiles.[77]

75. Lewis, John Wilson, and Hua Di, Fall 1992, "China's Ballistic Missile Programs: Technologies, Strategies, Goals," International Security, 17:2, pp. 5-40.
76. Norris, Robert S., and Hans M. Kristensen, Nov./Dec. 2003, "Nuclear Notebook," The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, also on line at The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists [http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/nuken ... enote.html].
77. "DF-5 (CSS-4) Intercontinental Ballistic Missile," 2 April 2005, on line, Chinese Defence Today [http://www.sinodefence.com/missile/nuclear/df5.asp].
78. Federation of American Scientists, "DF-5," 28 July 2000, on line, Federation of American Scientists [http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/icbm/df-5.htm].
79. Defense Intelligence Agency, "Defense Estimative Brief: Nuclear Weapons Systems in China," 24 April 1984, DEB-49-84, p. 4, declassified version on line at Nuclear Information Project [http://www.nukestrat.com/china/DIA042484re.pdf].
Eastimated, granted by a Western entity, 24 missiles that can carry their MT nukes. And, 200 MT class nukes deployed ..........

And, then, M(C)D. Ouch:

2009 :: From Counterforce to Minimal Deterrence:

This article, for what it is worth, mentions China plenty of times. India - never!!!!
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

RamaY wrote:Yes sire! It does represent the "Hindu rate of growth" the pseudo-secular dhimmite leadership achieved in "independent" India.
My reply in Indic thread.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

NRao wrote:
2009 :: From Counterforce to Minimal Deterrence:

This article, for what it is worth, mentions China plenty of times. India - never!!!!
Current nuclear weapons are so-called two stage thermonuclear weapons. The first stage, or primary, is a fission device powered by plutonium that alone would create a yield of a few kilotons. The first stage in current weapons is “boosted,” that is, the yield of the fission primary is enhanced by the addition of a mixture of heavy isotopes of hydrogen, deuterium and tritium, that produces copious neutrons that induce additional plutonium fissions, thereby substantially increasing the yield. The energy of the boosted primary is used to compress and heat the second stage, or secondary, igniting it and releasing the vast majority of the overall energy of the weapon.

Most modern U.S. nuclear weapons can, therefore, easily be given a selectable explosive yield: a yield of a few hundred tons from the unboosted primary, a greater yield of several kilotons from the boosted primary but with the secondary turned off, and finally a yield of up to hundreds or thousands of kilotons from the complete weapon. For the missions envisioned here, the main adjustment will be to disable the secondary stage of the thermonuclear weapon leaving it with either a boosted fission or pure fission option. Instead of warheads with 300 kt (W87/MX), 335kt (W78/MM III), 450 kt (W88/Trident II) or 100 kt (W76/Trident II,) by disabling the second stage one ends up with yields in the low kiloton range, more than enough to obliterate the infrastructure targets described above.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

NRao:

The pages from BK's book. Now, buy it, before i get accused of copyright violations :)

Page 65
Page 66
Page 67
Page 68

Also, pay close attention to all these chinese arsenal reports, they focus on the DF 5/31/31A's. These are all focused on their bloody backyards. They do not talk much about all the other 100's of war heads, which can be delivered by air and other short/medium range missiles.

You will probably have to dig for some Japanese or South Korean perspective for that type of information.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

ShauryaT wrote:NRao:

The pages from BK's book. Now, buy it, before i get accused of copyright violations :)

Page 65
Page 66
Page 67
Page 68

Also, pay close attention to all these chinese arsenal reports, they focus on the DF 5/31/31A's. These are all focused on their bloody backyards. They do not talk much about all the other 100's of war heads, which can be delivered by air and other short/medium range missiles.

You will probably have to dig for some Japanese or South Korean perspective for that type of information.
Shaurya 2 points

1) What is ref 12 on page 66?

2) In contrast to what BK says take a look at this
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/ ... _1995.html
August1December 1995
Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao begins an internal debate within the
government over whether India should conduct additional nuclear tests.
The Indian cabinet is divided on the issue; some cabinet ministers support
a program of tests; others such as finance minister Manmohan Singh
oppose the tests on grounds that US sanctions will disrupt India's
economic recovery. Some of Rao's advisors believe that tests should be
preceded by preparations to ride out US sanctions for a period of at least
two years. However, the Chief Scientific Advisor, Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam
and the Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission Dr. R. Chidambaram,
argue in favor of tests. Rao orders Kalam and Chidambaram to make
preparations so that tests can be conducted within 10 days of political
authorization. Ultimately, however, Rao decides to defer the tests until
later.
—Raj Chengappa, "Tell Your President, I Keep My Word," Weapons of Peace:
The Secret Story of India's Quest to be a Nuclear Power (New Delhi:
HarperCollins Publishers Limited, 2000), pp. 3921395.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by NRao »

ST,

Thanks.

On the road ................
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

From nrao's link
http://www.fas.org/pubs/_docs/occasionalpaper7.pdf
many potential missions. The
first ballistic missile defense
system was nuclear. Both the
United States and the Soviet
Union once had nuclear tor-
pedoes, nuclear air defense
missiles, and nuclear artillery,
even nuclear landmines. It is
important to recognize that
the enormous reductions in
the numbers of nuclear
weapons since their Cold War
peak has been because nuclear
missions were abandoned as
they were proven infeasible or
were displaced by militarily
superior conventional alternatives.
This ongoing process of nuclear
obsolescence continues today.

Both advocates of a robust nuclear
posture and nuclear disarmers would
probably agree that the last mission of
nuclear weapons should be to survive a
nuclear attack in order to threaten
retaliation against a nuclear aggressor, with
the aim of deterring such an attack in
the first place. We call this the “mini-
mal deterrence” mission.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

Three great articles on Chinese nuclear doctrine and attitudes
http://www.nti.org/db/china/npolicy.htm

Plenty of mention of India in the following document
http://www.rand.org/pubs/conf_proceedin ... 2.ch11.pdf
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

Shiv, The reference to item 12 on page 66 of the BK book, is to the AN Prasad Interview in July 2007, posted in the previous page.

On your second observation, AN Prasad again is on record here, directly. Couple his statement with the following:

- RC's general confidence level on the use of simulations
- RC's assessment that no further tests are needed, immediately after POK2, before full results were in
- The number of weaponized designs actually tested - 1
- The number of weaponized designs untested? (AN Prasad, estimates these to be at about 12, whatever the actual number may be, it is likely that untested weapon designs exist, even if you do not include a full yield test)

Based on the above, what is the reasonable assessment to conclude? I see no reason to doubt AN Prasad on what he said about RC being opposed to a test.

PS: Added to the second point for clarification
Last edited by ShauryaT on 18 Nov 2009 22:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by NRao »

The issue, as I stated earlier, is with the TN/S1 device tested in POK-II. The BK book states that too.

To resolve this issue the determining factor is bound to be the depth at which the device was placed. I am still trying to fathom the implications of this ridiculous discrepancy of 2x (120 meters vs. 230 meters) between scientists!!!!! Not at the level of what it means to the outcome WRT yield/s, but just how can people who we depend on to be accurate in thinking and reporting be this much off. But, .............. NASA has done that too and goofed up a Martian mission.

The second factor has to be what is the soil composition at 120 meters, we seem to agree that it is granite at 230 meters.

I for one am not willing to accept that India could not drill beyond 100 meters in which ever year that they first dug that shaft. That - in particular - is ridiculous IMHO, with all due respects to Dr. Prasad. As architects we did that on a regular basis in the early 70s (it certainly existed prior to that too) (outside of being taught it in structural engineering classes). Granted the depth is an item of concern. And so is going through rock.

On other designs and RC's inclination not to test - all that is for a different thread. Such topics do not influence the outcome of this one test (S1) either way.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by NRao »

RC's assessment that no further tests are needed, immediately after POK2, before full results were in
Was he not opposed to it prior to POK-II?
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

NRao wrote:
RC's assessment that no further tests are needed, immediately after POK2, before full results were in
Was he not opposed to it prior to POK-II?
Yes, as per AN Prasad. But, why do you ask? I thought, I made it clear.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by NRao »

ShauryaT wrote:[quote="NRao
Was he not opposed to it prior to POK-II?
Yes, as per AN Prasad. But, why do you ask? I thought, I made it clear.[/quote]

Then:
no further tests are needed, immediately after POK2, before full results were in
has no meaning, since he was always opposed to it. IF he was opposed to testing even prior, it is to be expected that he will not wait for "full test results".

Need to run .............
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

Correct, to the last part -not to the no meaning. The post and the points was to point out to Shiv, why I believe that AN Prasad's statement on RC's position is believable.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

NRao wrote:I for one am not willing to accept that India could not drill beyond 100 meters in which ever year that they first dug that shaft.
Not so fast. Independently, the statement may look out of place and wrong. However, look at it in context. Is it possible that he meant the necessary technology to drill deep, without attracting Unkils eyes in space?

Regardless, the approximate depth for the S1 shaft has validation from two credible sources. AN Prasad and Santhanam.

Also, watch some R. Ramachandran interviews, that exist out there. Let me know, what you think. Also, readup on his papers on the issue and related IUNCA.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by NRao »

ShauryaT wrote:
NRao wrote:I for one am not willing to accept that India could not drill beyond 100 meters in which ever year that they first dug that shaft.
Not so fast. Independently, the statement may look out of place and wrong. However, look at it in context. Is it possible that he meant the necessary technology to drill deep, without attracting Unkils eyes in space?
!!!!! He is very clear:
Deeper holes could not have been dug because the country did not possess the technology to drill below 100 meters.
It is not possible.
Regardless, the approximate depth for the S1 shaft has validation from two credible sources. AN Prasad and Santhanam.
vs. Chengappa from the source that actually drilled the shaft - Indian Army. And, RC, etc? There are other issues that I have with what Santhanam has stated. And, the critical part is that S1 @ 120 meters, with a yield of even 10 Kt would have generated a crater. As VS stated, where is this crater?
Also, watch some R. Ramachandran interviews, that exist out there. Let me know, what you think. Also, readup on his papers on the issue and related IUNCA.
Certainly missed it.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

NRao wrote: vs. Chengappa from the source that actually drilled the shaft - Indian Army. And, RC, etc? There are other issues that I have with what Santhanam has stated. And, the critical part is that S1 @ 120 meters, with a yield of even 10 Kt would have generated a crater. As VS stated, where is this crater?
Can someone post in a more plain language the case for a crater and its size and relative dependencies and assumptions thereof @120 meters depth and a 20KT yield?

Also, something to think about. The S1 shaft was dug in 1981. At that time, it was in response to a test request from Dr. Ramanna. There was no TN design ready to test at that time. They had to do this activity without attracting attention. The chances that it went all the way to 230 meters at that time in that location are?

How reliable is this information that Chengappa's source was the colonel in charge? I do not have WOP by Chengappa with me, if someone has it, can they check? Thanks.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by Amber G. »

RC's assessment that no further tests are needed, immediately after POK2, before full results were in
Guru logs (Shiv and others) Hope this is not who is Sita type question but what is the basis of "RC claiming that no further tests are needed?" Do we have second or third hand statements or have direct record (A credible link or a statement from RC himself)

Also would like to see if author can give a credible source (or notes that he did his own research by interviewing experts in drilling business) for the statemnet
Deeper holes could not have been dug because the country did not possess the technology to drill below 100 meters.


(From what I know - I have a nephew (IIT Engineer who worked for Schlumberger) who have educated me about all those drilling machines etc) - a blanket statement like "country did not possess technology" , is not credible)
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

Amber G. wrote:
RC's assessment that no further tests are needed, immediately after POK2, before full results were in
Guru logs (Shiv and others) Hope this is not who is Sita type question but what is the basis of "RC claiming that no further tests are needed?" Do we have second or third hand statements or have direct record (A credible link or a statement from RC himself)

The only information I have is a quote from BK that contradicts this somewhat - It's the very book that Shaurya is quoting from
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/ ... _2894.html
Mid-January 1999
Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) Chairman Dr. R. Chidambaram says that India has an adequate scientific database "for designing...a credible minimum deterrent." However, Chidambaram adds, should the government change the 'minimum' parameters of the proposed deterrent in terms of yields and performance criteria, then tests will become necessary.
—Cited in, Bharat Karnad, "Hesitant Nuclear Realpolitik: 1966-To Date," Nuclear Weapons and Indian Security: The Realist Foundations of Strategy (New Delhi: Macmillan, 2002), p. 427.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

About depth of holes there is no doubt whatsoever that India had the ability to dill holes up to 1000 meters long before 1998 - I have a geology paper that records this. Apart from this mine shafts much deeper have been dug in India from the 1800s - so this inability to go below 100 meters is trash as far as I am concerned. Of course the "inability" to go deeper may have something to do with US minitoring. Recall that Bombay high was drilled in 1974 and Assam drilling increased after the 1970s oil shock

But all the scaling and DOB rules are upset. Someone please educate me and tell me how a 45 kt blast can be contained in a 100 meter shaft. Everything I have read suggests that it will not be contained. The same obfuscation and misleading info is being given out by everyone.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

ShauryaT wrote:
NRao wrote: vs. Chengappa from the source that actually drilled the shaft - Indian Army. And, RC, etc? There are other issues that I have with what Santhanam has stated. And, the critical part is that S1 @ 120 meters, with a yield of even 10 Kt would have generated a crater. As VS stated, where is this crater?
Can someone post in a more plain language the case for a crater and its size and relative dependencies and assumptions thereof @120 meters depth and a 20KT yield?

Also, something to think about. The S1 shaft was dug in 1981. At that time, it was in response to a test request from Dr. Ramanna. There was no TN design ready to test at that time. They had to do this activity without attracting attention. The chances that it went all the way to 230 meters at that time in that location are?

How reliable is this information that Chengappa's source was the colonel in charge? I do not have WOP by Chengappa with me, if someone has it, can they check? Thanks.
Shaurya if anyone was able to give you that easily we would never have had this debate. It is not that easy and apart from the math there is a lot of data that is missing (which we cannot get) about type of rock etc. I think you really should go though the publicly available material on this topic - especially about crater formation in general and the "western" opinions about the S1 crater which is available in great detail in the following site.

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/
The India part is also big, but the following is relevant
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/India/I ... ields.html

The cratering information is here
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Library ... fects.html

BRM craterology paper
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... crater.pdf

It is a huge site an I have spent a lot of time reading some parts in detail. You can find both the analysis of India's tests as well as craterology there. I have linked these sites and individual articles so many times in the last couple of months that I now realise that most people do not bother looking at links and every newcomer to the discussion comes with the same old questions. If you are masochistic enough - go through 150 pages of the fizzle discussion

I suggest you put in a lot more reading on these issues and then see if any reconciliation is possible. I assure you that it is not - but you have to reach your conclusion on your own. Anything I say will seem biased. What Chengappa said has been repeated a lot of times in these threads. "How reliable" is a moot point.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

Shiv,

I have been through the sites you have linked, many times. I try to do my own work and do know that the answers to questions, will not come easy. But, if some are claiming x,y and z then I guess it is fair enough to ask for some explanation.

I have been going through this site, i had book marked earlier for some answers. Scanned through those which were around 120 meter depth tests. Not one of them has a crater number reported. :evil: But, am not sure it tells us anything, as some other numbers are way off.

My quotes were from BK's book called India's Nuclear Policy, not from "Realist Foundations". Clarified this earlier also.

Also, some questions, from some members are proxy questions - clearly! Either, they should come up with their own questions or let the proxy show his face!
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

Shaurya - the curious fact is that if you look at all the reports of all previous nuclear tests before the 1998 tests - nobody gave a damn about crater size. In the days of atmospheric tests yields were measured by fireball size and by atmospheric sampling. When they went underground yields were measured by seismology after setting a standard for the rocks of the area, confirmed by radiochemistry and also CORRTEX to a lesser extent.

In fact the use of seismology to detect global tests became a whole new field after India's 1974 test and the CTBT issues were brought in to discourage new entrants.

It is only after the Indian 1998 tests that a great hoohah was made about crater size and yield. It has never been used to seriously estimate yields until the Indian tests were done. he only other time it was studies was when the US did a series of tests precisely to test for cratering. I think this was th plowshare series of tests. If the USSR has done some studies - there is no public info on the net in English.

Crater size and yield is mostly mumbo jumbo because if you bury a bomb deep enough you get no crater. If it is too shallow it blows out and produces a enormous crater. At depths between these two extremes what happens is that a cavity is formed underground and that cavity starts caving in from above. Sometimes the caving in stops after a bit, but if the caving in continues with collapse right up to the surface you get a crater that is approximately the size of your original cavity. The size of your original cavity depends on yield and the strength/quality of the rock surrounding the device. There are reports (that I need to find) that state that the 1974 POK 1 test was nearly a blowout. I think PK Iyengar said "We were lucky" that it did not blow out. I will check and post here

After the US Baneberry test leaked radioactivity they made sure that all their tests were so deep that nothing leaked out. The leakage of material was avoided not just because of radioactivity - but because leaked material tells you about the bomb design. Why do you think a U2 was flying over Chagai in 1998? A lot of studies were done after the leaked Baneberry test about depth of burial and the BARC team have mentioned all that in their claim that they buried the device deep enough to avoid all venting.

Remember that if you have a design for a 200 kt thermonuclear weapon, can you really scale it down to something less?

Apparently you can, in the following ways (as per internet sources)

1) Use a non fissile tamper for the secondary (no fission after fusion)
2) remove the secondary altogether (no fusion)
3) remove the boosting of the primary (fission alone)

A fourth method would be to fiddle with the amount of LiD - but that is my guesswork.

I think the BARC team designed a 45 kt device out of pre existing components and this was done at short notice to suit a pre existing, hastily deepened shaft. Nobody in the world deliberately designs 45 kt TN devices and what was done was probably a fiddling with the components of a 200 kt or 300 kt design (figures as mentioned by Bharat Karnad). Perhaps they removed some LiD and replaced it with sand or Lonavla chikki :D Fiddling with designs is a formula for failure especially if the design is not already tested. I am willing to believe that the exact yield of the TN device may not have been 45 kt as stated, but there is absolutely no information to prove that fusion did not occur and the 100 meter deep information is not credible because a 100 meter depth is too shallow for 45 kt. You have to use the "BARC people are fundamentally stupid" argument to say a 45 kt device was tested at 100 meters. I will try and come up with the calculations for this using available data despite my mathematical disability.
Last edited by shiv on 19 Nov 2009 18:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

ShauryaT wrote:

I have been going through this site, i had book marked earlier for some answers. Scanned through those which were around 120 meter depth tests. Not one of them has a crater number reported. :evil: But, am not sure it tells us anything, as some other numbers are way off.
Here is a link that lists ALL US tests in Nevada with yield and depth of burial in meters. Nobody is bothered about crater size.

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Tests/Nevada.html

Will scan a post relevant pages of Chengappa's book which quotes "more than 150 meters" for the fission test and over 200 meters for the thermonuclear. Both those shafts were arready ready by 1995, having been made in the 1980s. There is something wrong with the "technology not available" statement.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by NRao »

ShauryaT wrote: I have been going through this site, i had book marked earlier for some answers. Scanned through those which were around 120 meter depth tests. Not one of them has a crater number reported. :evil: But, am not sure it tells us anything, as some other numbers are way off.
Try: http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Tests/Nts.html

However, what seems to be the most authoritative source is on the very last page of: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... crater.pdf

The two curves of interest are the NE for hard rock and NE for alluvium.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

Relevant pages about dates and depths of shafts from Chengappa's Weapons of Peace

"White House Shaft" was the "deeper shaft" in 1995, filled with groundwater
Image

"Taj Mahal" was over 150 meters deep
Image

"White House" has the Thermonuclear device placed and was "over 200 meters" deep.
Image
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

Any references by Chengappa, for sources of information on DOB for S1, S2...White House and Taj Mahal.

If one reads both Ramachandran and Chengappa, you will see a degree of consistency, with the BARC story.

What we need from these two is reporting that comes across as independent in their views and does not sound as a mouth piece of BARC. This applies more to Ramachandran than Chengappa, for he has been silent.
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Re: Deterrence

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ShauryaT wrote:Any references by Chengappa, for sources of information on DOB for S1, S2...White House and Taj Mahal.
The second scan above - page 422 has the following ref which is relevant (The refs for the other pages are not relevant)
Pages 421-423: Mishaps based on interviews with personnel involved and senior scientists including Santhanam
ShauryaT wrote: What we need from these two is reporting that comes across as independent in their views and does not sound as a mouth piece of BARC. This applies more to Ramachandran than Chengappa, for he has been silent.
Shaurya - there were only a few people present at the time of the tests - and IIRC it was Kalam, Chidambaram, Kakodkar, Sikka and Santhanam

Everyone else is a mouthpiece of one of these people.
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Re: Deterrence

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shiv wrote: I think the BARC team designed a 45 kt device out of pre existing components and this was done at short notice to suit a pre existing, hastily deepened shaft.
My read is they knew for a very long time, since 1981, the date of the white house shaft, as to what the DOB is going to be for the TN device. So, the 45 KT was not as much of an haste as it is made out to be. Remember they even drained the shaft in 1996, which likely gave away the preparations to Unkil's eyes.
You have to use the "BARC people are fundamentally stupid" argument to say a 45 kt device was tested at 100 meters. I will try and come up with the calculations for this using available data despite my mathematical disability.
If you are going to take the pains, then try the following:

DOB: 120, Yield: 45 Soil: Sandstone/Shale Crater: ?
DOB: 120, Yield: 20 Soil: Sandstone/Shale Crater: ?
DOB: 120, Yield: 20 Soil: Sandstone/Shale/Granite Crater: ?
DOB: 120, Yield: 45 Soil: Sandstone/Shale/Granite Crater: ?

Also, repeat the same with DOB as 230. I am probably, more math challenged or lazy than you are. Thanks.
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Re: Deterrence

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ShauryaT wrote:[ My read is they knew for a very long time, since 1981, the date of the white house shaft, as to what the DOB is going to be for the TN device. So, the 45 KT was not as much of an haste as it is made out to be. Remember they even drained the shaft in 1996, which likely gave away the preparations to Unkil's eyes. .
That is not what Chengappa says on pages 416 and 417:

416
Although Ramanna had proposed making a hydrogen bomb soon after the 1974 test, when Sikka took charge in early 1995 only little progress had been made. Some designs had been developed in the 1980s by the group but without political push these languished.
417
For the bomb team the 1996 postponement came as a boon. It gave them the breathing space not only to master the hydrogen bomb but also to perfect the five other devices being planned.
Refs for these in interviews with Sikka including one from 1998 that is online here
http://www.india-today.com/itoday/12101 ... html#sikka
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Re: Deterrence

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shiv wrote:
Shaurya - there were only a few people present at the time of the tests - and IIRC it was Kalam, Chidambaram, Kakodkar, Sikka and Santhanam

Everyone else is a mouthpiece of one of these people.
I do not consider folks such as AN Prasad, PKI, Homi Sethna, Srinivasan, Rodriguez or the military brass as mouth pieces of anyone of the above. I consider them EQUALLY credible with the rest of the above. The retired tag of many of them does not make much of a difference to what they know or can know.

If you read BK, his preference for a full scale weaponization and test program with primarily the TN weapon as the main stay of the Indian arsenal is clear. You may disagree with that. But, I do not get the impression that his conviction is driven by any sense of vendetta but by his read of the situation and his research and convictions on the matter. Can he be wrong, sure. BK does not dwelve as much on the sizzle/fizzle theories, for even if this whole thing was completely successful, it would make the least impact to what he really wants, which is a reliable assured set of TN based war heads, tested repeatedly in their final weaponized configurations.
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Re: Deterrence

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My point was they knew, that the test had to be conducted in the white house shaft. Did not say anything on the likely weapon configuration. I agree that the designed weapon is likely to be in the 100-300 KT range. The 45 KT was tailor made for the test, given the DOB limits.
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Re: Deterrence

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ShauryaT wrote:My point was they knew, that the test had to be conducted in the white house shaft.
True but how do you reliably scale down the design yield of a bomb to suit an existing shaft? The calculations would take centuries by hand. Even by computer it would take time.
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Re: Deterrence

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ShauryaT wrote:I do not consider folks such as AN Prasad, PKI, Homi Sethna, Srinivasan, Rodriguez or the military brass as mouth pieces of anyone of the above..
I do not believe that you have heard what some military brass have to say about this - but that is not your fault. You may not want to believe what you have heard some of the "military brass" have said. But that is your choice.
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Re: Deterrence

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ShauryaT wrote: If you read BK, his preference for a full scale weaponization and test program with primarily the TN weapon as the main stay of the Indian arsenal is clear. You may disagree with that. But, I do not get the impression that his conviction is driven by any sense of vendetta but by his read of the situation and his research and convictions on the matter. Can he be wrong, sure. BK does not dwelve as much on the sizzle/fizzle theories, for even if this whole thing was completely successful, it would make the least impact to what he really wants, which is a reliable assured set of TN based war heads, tested repeatedly in their final weaponized configurations.
BK has his views and he is doing the country a favor by voicing his views loud and clear. I believe his view are correct but I am convinced that India will not test. It's not going to happen.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by Jarita »

Shiv
Why won't we test
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