India-China News and Discussion

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 16 Nov 2009 10:40

Should have made it clearer. The comment from the colleague was about the northern borders of Occupied Tibet. Nothing to do with India.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Nov 2009 10:42

Bade wrote:Considering locals in this case sitting in Leh/Ladakh should not be an issue. Most of CoK is hardly inhabited even today from all accounts. So why not call it CoL ( as in Chinese occupied Ladakh) then. Makes it even more clearer to the locals and the rest of Indians who are not local.

sounds better !

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 16 Nov 2009 10:53

Rahul M wrote:
Bade wrote:Considering locals in this case sitting in Leh/Ladakh should not be an issue. Most of CoK is hardly inhabited even today from all accounts. So why not call it CoL ( as in Chinese occupied Ladakh) then. Makes it even more clearer to the locals and the rest of Indians who are not local.
sounds better !

Good suggestion. Will start using it gently....

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Nov 2009 12:05

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Nov 2009 12:10

China in future- map of China 2020 - FREE TIBET AND UYGHUR, INNER MONGOLIA!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-rYAh1i6VA

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Nov 2009 12:15

Real area of Tibet

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2526/ ... 608400.htm

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 16 Nov 2009 12:33

Ex Air Chief Fali Major's interview

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/ ... -26-11.htm

We seem to have China phobia and get quite perturbed by their threats. Is it because we cannot match up to their military might?

India does not need to worry too much about China. They may have quantity, but cannot match our quality. Moreover, the scenario is not the same as 1962 and China cannot mess with India as it did in 1962.

Our forces are well equipped and the Indian brain is far ahead when compared to the Chinese brain.

The phobia of 1962 is definitely over and our deployment along the Indo-China border is very good.

That brain comment is going to rankle the Chinese ego and some PLA types will vent through Global times.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 16 Nov 2009 13:29

Uday Bhaskar's take on the India-China stuff. Essentially saying that India has some options unlike in 1962.

Believes that PLA types are pushing the envelope to signal to India that India cannot remain comfortable with status quo.

Another takeaway is that China is acutely perturbed by India US collaboration.

SINO‐INDIAN RELATIONS today

http://www.maritimeindia.org/pdfs/SINO_ ... _Story.pdf

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 16 Nov 2009 17:16

Ref last pic Acharyaji posted..

Apart from the rump on the East that China really is if you remove Xinjaing and Tibet, note one thing...

All river systems for SE Asia are originating in the Tibetan basin. India has to raise the issue of North Tibet. It has to start making Kailash and Mansarover region disputed. Brahmputra and other rivers originate that area. SE Asian nations too must realize that China can and will blackmail them at the appropriate time over water. SE Asian nations too must join in the Tibet cause.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 16 Nov 2009 21:06

Hi was surfing Google news and came across this news, link posted below. If I am reading the tea leaves correctly then we might see a lot more pressure for shitty bitty and other shitty treaties. Not at all good for India. Looks like the alliances are getting finalised, and as usual we will be left alone. We need to be more proactive as soon as possible.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 236707.cms

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 16 Nov 2009 21:15

China may ask US to insist that India sign anti-nuke agreement

Saibal Dasgupta , TNN 16 November 2009, 07:42pm IST

BEIJING: The India-US nuclear deal is expected to crop up during Tuesday’s dialogue in Beijing as US president Barack Obama seeks the support of Chinese leaders on his stand on Iran and North Korean nuclear issues, informed sources said. He is expected to discuss both security and trade issues during his meeting with Chinese president Hu Jintao and premier Wen Jiabao on Tuesday.

US department officials have made it clear Obama will seek Beijing’s support on nuclear non-proliferation issues involving North Korea and Russia. He particularly wants Chinese banking on his plans for tough new sanctions against Iran after he recently got Russia to accept the idea.

“China might ask the US to insist that India sign the Comprehensive Non-proliferation Treaty. This is all Obama can possibly do to make China happy. But the Indian deal cannot be amended at this stage,” an Indian expert Sino-Chinese relations, said.

China is desperate to get Obama’s word that he will not meet the Dalai Lama in the immediate future. Beijing also wants an assurance from the US that it will stop selling arms to Taiwan. China regards Taiwan as one of its states and hopes to merge it with the Chinese mainland in future.

For India, the important question is whether the US president’s efforts to woo China will hurt Indian interests in relation to Pakistan, the situation in Afghanistan, climate change, the nuclear deal and even the controversy involving the Dalai Lama.

Obama will also get a doze of Chinese reasoning about the need to open a line of dialogue with milder elements of Taliban in Afghanistan, which is also the thinking in the Pakistan government. This is exactly the opposite of the stand taken by India, which believes there are no moderate elements in the Taliban.

The US president indicated on Monday he was ready to soften his stand on certain issues by refusing to meet the Dalai Lama during the Tibetan leader’s recent visit to the United States and skipping the Tibet issue during his talks in Shanghai on Monday.

Rising trade disputes between the US and China and differences on the issue of climate change are two other issues that will figure during the talks between Obama and Chinese leaders on Tuesday. China has indicated it will stick to its stand on the climate change issue, which is similar to the stand taken by New Delhi, but there are some critics who fear Beijing might deviate from its stand by doing a side deal with Washington.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 236707.cms

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Nov 2009 22:00

the NPA lobby has been trying to push ctbt down our throats for a long time now, to no effect.
and the spider of the worldwide proliferation net is asking India to sign ctbt, what irony !

other than some increased chai-biskoot expenses, I don't see much of a problem.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 16 Nov 2009 22:09

The timing of the Washington Post article on Chinese proliferation to coincide with the Obama visit to PRC, tells you a lot doesn't it ? There must be powers at work who does not see all this peace-making treaties as of any value to deal with PRC.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 16 Nov 2009 22:47

RoyG wrote:China may ask US to insist that India sign anti-nuke agreement

“China might ask the US to insist that India sign the Comprehensive Non-proliferation Treaty. This is all Obama can possibly do to make China happy. But the Indian deal cannot be amended at this stage,” an Indian expert Sino-Chinese relations, said.

This is from a country which proliferated missiles and nukes to Pak and NoKo (possibly others). Thinking of it, the whole "Cheenis supplied the bum to Pakis" seems to be a psy-ops simply to weaken the Cheeni hand towards pressurizing US to ask India to sign CTBT.

Desh can consider signing CTBT, if the cheenis took back all the bums and missiles they suppled to the Pakis and NoKo.

KrishnaMu · Post by **KrishnaMu** » 17 Nov 2009 01:21

Himalayan histrionics -Asia's two giants still cannot agree where one stops and the other begins

IF THIS is to be Asia’s century, a small prerequisite is that its two rising powers rub along together. Yet recent bonding between China and India has turned to repulsion. Breathless Indian commentary talks of irreconcilable rivalry, even future conflict. As for the Chinese, few had bothered much about India. The superiority of China’s economic and political models was taken as read. That makes an October editorial on the website of the People’s Daily, the Communist Party mouthpiece, all the more striking.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 17 Nov 2009 01:38

From the above link

As for whether India and China can bury the hatchet over the border: that depends as much on China’s understanding of its internal threats as on its robust, sometimes rabid, southern neighbour.

So standing up to a bully, makes you rabid.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Nov 2009 01:44

So standing up to a bully, makes you rabid.

High time to bring Kailash, Mansarover, North Tibet on the table with China. Starting with a few off the cuff statements on NT by some junior ministers and denial nd counter denials, it will take 4-5 years from now that these will be considered disputed comfortably around the world. Time to start is now.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 17 Nov 2009 01:47

We can do our bit on different blogs and boards

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Nov 2009 01:54

Bade wrote:From the above link
As for whether India and China can bury the hatchet over the border: that depends as much on China’s understanding of its internal threats as on its robust, sometimes rabid, southern neighbour.
So standing up to a bully, makes you rabid.

No. When your fundas in a bully hands you start blaming all even those you know very well.

It shows the state of UK that Economist writes such tripe.

BTW same logic applies elsewhere.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » 17 Nov 2009 04:18

Bade wrote
Was discussing the border issues with a colleague from dragon land. He alluded to something that I was not aware of...or maybe PRC propaganda. The claim was that HH Dalai Lama wants more than just North Tibet. So the PRC would find it hard to compromise where the borders are. Both Tibetans and Chinese have different perceptions of the actual border. He seemed not so aware of the Indo-Chinese Occupied Tibetan border issues.

Please "Bing" or "google" the original Map of Tibet ...

The Chinese PLA -- has systematically divided Tibet, and "absorbed" many parts of Tibet into other Chinese Provinces --

This way they can systematically loot/plunder , the water & mineral resources of Tibet.

TAR is a small subset of what Tibet used to be.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Nov 2009 04:29

A very good map of pre-PRC occupation is in the book "Seven years in Tibet". A lot of land was chopped off and added to Qinghai and Xinkiang to reduce the Tibet autonomouse region.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 17 Nov 2009 06:04

Speaking from my personal interaction with different Chineese on many occasions,they do have this Phobia abot being not as brainy like Indian as they know they do lack imagination. Mainland Chinese get very iffy if they see Indians involved in business deals . Chief knows what he is talking about.
China asking O to talk to India shows their weakness and nervousness. US has no leverage and neither does PRC , Both will have to come in terms with Indian needs and demands starting with first part of business i.e dismantling of the land of dimwits, Pakistan. Another 10% economic growth decade and Chinese get nervous breakdown. They must settle with India or their dream of Superpowerdum goes kaboom. WEST will milk this weakness, India factor to keep them off balance.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 17 Nov 2009 06:36

The Nine Nations of China

This week, President Obama makes his first state visit to China. What kind of country will he find there? We tend to imagine China as a monolith: 1.3 billion people sharing the same language, history, and culture. The truth is far more interesting. China is a mosaic of several distinct regions, each with its own resources, dynamics, and historical character.

As a traveler, teacher, and professional investor who has been exploring China since 1986, I’ve come to think of these regions as the Nine Nations of China (inspired, in part, by Joel Garreau’s Nine Nations of North America). Taken individually, these “nations” would account for eight of the 20 most populous countries in the world.

Click on the interactive map for more details.

Just over a century ago, northeast China—known to the outside world as Manchuria—was a wilderness of dark forests and frigid snow-swept plains. Its only inhabitants were a few hunting and fishing tribes. The foremost of these was the Manchu, which conquered and ruled China as its last imperial dynasty. The arrival of the Trans-Siberian Railroad in 1898 changed everything, unleashing a flood of migrants and pitting Russia against Japan in a battle to dominate the region. The Japanese prevailed, and in 1931, they made Manchuria part of their empire. They introduced industrial-scale farming and built mines, steel mills, and factories.

http://www.theatlantic.com/slideshows/c ... belt.mhtml

Maybe this should go in the Understanding the dragon thread.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 18 Nov 2009 08:16

Please delete if inappropriate. Spotted on the web:

In the news today is a video documenting the fact that the Chinese have learned to deep fry a living fish and keep it alive long enough to be eaten piece by living piece in a restaurant. Tell me again, please, why the human race is worth preserving?

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 18 Nov 2009 11:56

A_Gupta wrote:Please delete if inappropriate. Spotted on the web:
In the news today is a video documenting the fact that the Chinese have learned to deep fry a living fish and keep it alive long enough to be eaten piece by living piece in a restaurant. Tell me again, please, why the human race is worth preserving?

Here is that original video which shows how the barbarians of the east have their lunch .

Warning, this may be too graphic for some people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BYPuLnA ... r_embedded

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 18 Nov 2009 13:13

Prem wrote:Speaking from my personal interaction with different Chineese on many occasions,they do have this Phobia abot being not as brainy like Indian as they know they do lack imagination. Mainland Chinese get very iffy if they see Indians involved in business deals . Chief knows what he is talking about.
China asking O to talk to India shows their weakness and nervousness. US has no leverage and neither does PRC , Both will have to come in terms with Indian needs and demands starting with first part of business i.e dismantling of the land of dimwits, Pakistan. Another 10% economic growth decade and Chinese get nervous breakdown. They must settle with India or their dream of Superpowerdum goes kaboom. WEST will milk this weakness, India factor to keep them off balance.

The only place India is ahead of chinese is English, movie making and IT (thanks to britain and visionaries). Otherwise we are behind chinese in every aspect which requires imagination. China makes everything for world right from panty liners to providing rare metals for US precision weapons to fuel cell batteries of next-generation cars. Stop living in mountain of superiority and be realistic. It has trade surplus of $350 billion/year with Europe and US ! something we will not have in next 10 years too. A nation of 1.3 billions people cannot be without imagination or stupid.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Nov 2009 13:33

A well-known Chinese scholar said that it is the Chinese belief that only two nations can occupy the Heavens, one China and the other India. All the others will be below them. It is a civilizational belief.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 18 Nov 2009 13:41

ashish raval wrote:The only place India is ahead of chinese is English, movie making and IT (thanks to britain and visionaries).

Stop repeating BS, will you. The national literacy levels in india were less than 1% when the british quit india, the british systemically destroyed village education centres were most of the population received it's education. They used indian resources and labour to profit themselves, even the railways were built for faster movement of british mercenaries to quell nascent freedom movements and transport goods from the indian interior to the seaports to be shipped back to england.
Read historian dharampal's book, they are online and free and dont make such baseless comments again.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 18 Nov 2009 14:55

Avinash R wrote:
ashish raval wrote:The only place India is ahead of chinese is English, movie making and IT (thanks to britain and visionaries).
Stop repeating BS, will you. The national literacy levels in india were less than 1% when the british quit india, the british systemically destroyed village education centres were most of the population received it's education. They used indian resources and labour to profit themselves, even the railways were built for faster movement of british mercenaries to quell nascent freedom movements and transport goods from the indian interior to the seaports to be shipped back to england.
Read historian dharampal's book, they are online and free and dont make such baseless comments again.

You stop finger pointing. Literacy level in India in 1947 were 12.2 % and even my Grandfather knew how to write and speak english so stop peddling BS. J.C.Bose did not learned how to make wireless by reading Veda's. Neither did he communicated with Einstein in Sanskrit. Could you explain to me what they taught in Village education centres in 1800's in India !! Certainly not how to make steam engine's right !!. Give the due where it is necessary. Indians did not go to England to learn english comeback and teach rest of Indians it was british people who taught english to Indian born english, anglo-indians and wealthy Indians and later missionaries did it.

ashkrishna · Post by **ashkrishna** » 18 Nov 2009 15:04

ashish raval wrote:
You stop finger pointing. Literacy level in India in 1947 were 12.2 % and even my Grandfather knew how to write and speak english so stop peddling BS. J.C.Bose did not learned how to make wireless by reading Veda's. Neither did he communicated with Einstein in Sanskrit. Could you explain to me what they taught in Village education centres in 1800's in India !! Certainly not how to make steam engine's right !!. Give the due where it is necessary. Indians did not go to England to learn english comeback and teach rest of Indians it was british people who taught english to Indian born english, anglo-indians and wealthy Indians and later missionaries did it.

The above arguement can be dismantled in 10 different ways.... I shall leave the "finger pointing" to the more experienced...

The hilarious linking of vedas to wireless sets provides for comic relief....

So, why do we not give credit where its due and welcome the british again? They seem to have taught some of our ancestors to write. Damn , I miss that golden age....

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 18 Nov 2009 15:26

^^ the point of argument is we cannot claim everything as birthright and we Indians are superior and rest of world is b.s. and we cannot deny the fact that everyone in the world learns english because it was established as a language of science during industrial revolution and we learned the language because of urge within us to learn science and grow. Regarding inviting europeans, we did not invite them in 1498, it was urge of European explorers for Indian products and spread of christianity which lured them to India. If chinese were so stupid in business they would not have succeeded on world stage and have $ reserves of 2.4 trillion moving up at a rate of $400 billion/yr while we are stagnant at $300 billion which is a nowhere in comparision.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 18 Nov 2009 15:28

If the knowledge of English is so important for success in IT how come Pakistan or other colonies of England are not so successful at it. While the knowledge of english might have helped, is it the only reason for the success of Indian IT?

Vinod Ji · Post by **Vinod Ji** » 18 Nov 2009 15:43

ashish raval wrote: China makes everything for world right from panty liners to providing rare metals for US precision weapons to fuel cell batteries of next-generation cars. Stop living in mountain of superiority and be realistic. It has trade surplus of $350 billion/year with Europe and US ! something we will not have in next 10 years too. A nation of 1.3 billions people cannot be without imagination or stupid.

Calling spade a spade is not a crime. What is wrong with admitting some one is ahead of you in some fields and we shall strive to get better? Is not that called pragmatic?

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 18 Nov 2009 15:46

Pakistan inherited less that 5% of total british educational establishment and everyone knows what they dreamt of day and night looking towards moon and thinking of eathing lunch in amritsar and dinner in Delhi. Other colonies like SA are doing good in everything including IT depending upon their size and population. Still other colonies of africa were woefully exploited without british establishing any education centres and warlords mismanaged the african colonies after british left. Carribean colonies were only interested in making their countries a tourist destination and not technology superpower. Canada and Australia are doing as good if not better than India but cost of IT/ITES is higher in those countries and so they send their work to India too.
English is not only important it is the only language into which India is exporting its products to. Our IT export to non-english speaking countries is miniscule.

ashkrishna · Post by **ashkrishna** » 18 Nov 2009 15:47

ashish raval wrote:^^ the point of argument is we cannot claim everything as birthright and we Indians are superior and rest of world is b.s. and we cannot deny the fact that everyone in the world learns english because it was established as a language of science during industrial revolution and we learned the language because of urge within us to learn science and grow. Regarding inviting europeans, we did not invite them in 1498, it was urge of European explorers for Indian products and spread of christianity which lured them to India. If chinese were so stupid in business they would not have succeeded on world stage and have $ reserves of 2.4 trillion moving up at a rate of $400 billion/yr while we are stagnant at $300 billion which is a nowhere in comparision.

No one claimed anything as their birth right,

No one here claims that the chinese are "stupid" (far from it..I would say, considering the number of whines I see everyday), just have a look at the general tone of the posts in this thread. Is china a threat and a competitor to bharat of today? The answer is yes yes... and the rest follows.

The "inviting" part was intended to be sarcastic..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Nov 2009 15:48

ashish raval, while you are perfectly entitled to admire the Chinese, you don't need to put India and Indians down unnecessarily.

Yudhajit · Post by **Yudhajit** » 18 Nov 2009 15:49

^^ Knowledge of English wsa important for success in 'IT enabled services'. It was certainly not enough for success in IT, but can be argued to be an important contributing factor. IT enabled services have also produced a lot of jobs for the benefit of (kids from ) middle class, otherwise we would be discussing about better employment opportunities as one of the strategic goals for the next 20-30 years.

Nobody gives credit to British for anything, but the fact is English language helped us grab the opportunity at short notice. Babus and politicians were spared the hard work.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Nov 2009 15:53

All posters, any attempt to derail the thread will result in receiving admin warnings.

Just to remind, after two warnings one gets banned for a month to cool the heels.

Vinod Ji · Post by **Vinod Ji** » 18 Nov 2009 15:53

SSridhar wrote:ashish raval, while you are perfectly entitled to admire the Chinese, you don't need to put India and Indians down unnecessarily.

I don't see him putting India down.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 18 Nov 2009 16:01

Sridhar, Where did I put Indians Down !!! Why would I put myself down ! What I am trying to tell here is we have to be honest in admiring a stronger enemy and there is no harm in replicating their success in our country too. Stronger enemy does not mean that we have to look other way and try to belittle them. If they can look and come down in India and learn how to replicate our success in China's IT sector what stops us to do the same !