Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

[Muppalla]

brihaspati ji,

Great analysis. I was only thinking that the formation of Pashunistan is the end of Indian miseries and an economic road to Central Asia reviving the old silk routes. I only thought China will be an irritant that India could handle in the scheme of things and I may have ignored the western brutality in my small mind. Very depressive scenario.

Any solutions or a strategy that you can think of ?

[Atri]

Any solutions or a strategy that you can think of ?

If I may intercede..

1. Consolidation of Bhaarata to the south of Vindhyas is of paramount importance. The belligerence of GOI against china is ineffective as in spite of excellent preparations of IA against PLA in NEFA, Ladakh, Sikkim and Uttaranchal, Nepal still remains an anomaly which needs to be sorted out before its too late.. And it is already getting too late.. A weak Indo-Nepal border with Nepal not firmly in Indian orbit means that the Vyuha-Rachana of IA is severely compromised in case of Chinese mischief in Ladakh.

2. Myanmar is the second important point.. If and in case Ganga falls to talibani pressure from west and inside and maoist assistance from central India and Nepal with active support of PLA in form of short border war, the possble retreat of PLA might be from East and not North. This means Bihar-Bengal-BD-Myanmar-Yunnan.. BD is somewhat similar to timebomb in the belly of Bhaarat and can potentially be more dangerous than TSPA. Even in absence of PRC invasion, perpetual irregularity in Nepal's orbit vis-a-vis India, makes it an excellent base for PRC and Jihadis to activate their networks in India, most importantlu Maoist network. Without Nepal's cooperation, modern day problem of Maoists cannot be solved. In my personal opinion, Nepal should follow the example of Sikkim as soon as possible to avoid the further mess. The uniform and continuous well defended border with China is important to tackle Maoists.

3. It is here where mentality of talibs and their belief in Ghazwa-e-Hind will curiously determine their thrust area and route as well. The Ho-Ko states that the victorious army will go and conquer Israel as well. One needs to estimate, how many of the pious talibs associate their outspoken ambition of "Indian Conquest" with "ghazwa-e-hind". This will intimately affect their route and pattern. Not all do that and many hold the opinion that this prophecy has already been fulfilled millennia ago. However, certain people like jahil hamid is of opinion which is vice-versa. These people are hopelessly bound to book. In many cases, they simply have to follow it, they can't help.

4. It also needs to curiously determine the potential candidates for mahdi (promised prophet). He will actually have to be strong and brave and popular enough to claim that he is messenger of god. In abrahamic societies, this is a rather bold statement to make. The Guru of Zaid Hamid was hanged under Blasphemy law in late 70's when he tried to preach something similar. I won't be surprised if his chela is up to something similar and is indeed garnering popularity. Although he is just one amongst many, we need to keep an eye on patterns of baki-devotions and popularity as well as the candidates vying to be at the centre-stage of this spotlight. Whoever is sent by god, he will have to be funded by saudi money. Which means Iran will be his enemy and hence, Iran needs to be in Indian good books. Furthermore, since oil-money won't last after 25-30 years, god better send the guy fast ..

5. Even if there is no "conquest" per se in classical terms, the struggle (ironically, synonym of Jihad) will intensify with growing population of Muslims in Ganga belt. One needs to observe the Deoband seminary rather closely.. They are testing the waters which is evident from recent Vande Mataram Fatwa.. It was shame that NDTV guys referred to Deoband as most secular outfit which opposed partition. People apparently clapped on it..

6. We at BRF need to study Kuran and Islamic symbolism, especially the portion regarding flight of Muhammad to Medina and his victorious way back to Mecca. This study will give us great insight about the patterns of terrorist activities unleashed upon India. The jihadis also are hopelessly dependent on symbolism which kind of reinstates their belief.

7. I guess, given Bhaaratiya supremacy over seas especially Bay of Bengal, it might not be a sustainable option for PRC to physically invade heartlands and assist Jihadis. Their unhindered access to IOR simply won't last for long. They are more interested in CAR oil in caspian sea region. Although the conflict can be short-lived (like a quick border war), the internal turnout can be slow and massive, if Qazi-Mullah social structure of power-sharing is not dismantled in NI.

[Sanku]

Brihspati, while you are accurate in your drawing a picture of the future (IMVHO) there is one way in which NI population differs greatly from the Jews.

It is that of the sheer population and of a surging fire barely repressed.

The situation that you mention will come around for sure, and there will be a coming war.

However this time, the country WILL erupt -- even if it is every man for himself, there are a lot of people who even if they band in a very narrow manner will put forward a serious resistance.

Yes it will destroy the shallow DIE non-identity based politics, and you are right in that you "welcome" the move to shake things up so to say.

My position is somewhat different than your in one way -- Is there a war coming -- Yes, of course, this is not something I welcome or think of as a possible future -- I consider it a certainty -- the only possible future -- a war from outside helped by on inside.

A destruction of status quo -- a Pralay of sort -- however this time there will be NO retreat from the north, withdraw to regroup and get back etc -- there will be a complete civilization war -- there is just no place to withdraw.

Who wins remains to be seen -- but a do or die battle is coming -- this is it.

[RayC]

Acharya ji,

How can Bhaarat be coaxed to take up the Righteous path? That is the whole crux of the matter. I guess lot of reasons have already been discussed on this thread. Most of them are sociological reasons like newer generation taking up the mantle with lower slavish sanskaras; bulging Indian economy.

I guess, thing with Bhaarat has been such that mere existence of a strong political core within Bhaarat makes the peripheral and centrifugal states unstable. For breaking and assimilating TSP, BD it is sufficient for India just to be there and grow and prosper. This mere existence of strong and central and successful India is sufficient for centrifugal forces to die out and assimilate into core. Such is their paranoia.

Modern day India and Indic paths are coming out of Islamic shadow in very strong manner. One should understand those who stand for Hindutva in Republic of India are themselves totally under Islamic influence; in terms of way of thinking. The basis of Indic Dharma is liberation, freedom of thought. The Ram-sene type of guys somehow are still struggling to come out of Islamic conditioning of right and wrong. The issue of women and sexuality; issue about goodness/badness of alcohol, issue about goodness/badness and importance of cow, issue about hussein's paintings; issue about modern western culture destroying Indic values which are typically taken up by Hindutva-vaadis, how relevant they are and what replacement do they suggest.

But what are the values which are being destroyed under the juggernaut of globalization? More people drink alcohol, this is considered loss of Indic value system. But taboo of alcohol is primarily Islamic influence. Women are getting more flamboyant about their display of sexuality which is seen as loss of Indic value system. But, confinement of women and their desires and issues is primarily Islamic influence. More people becoming sceptics, questioning the authority of Sadhus and babas and gods, but free-rationalism is basic foundation stone of Indic path. Out of 6 classical Darshans of Indian philosophy, 5 are staunch atheist.

So, in a way, Indian youth is overthrowing the mantle of value-system which is infact arisen due to Islamic supremacy and returning back to free and liberal Indic fold of life; because that is the "Dharma" of Bhaarat. However they are doing it in contemporary manner. This in itself is one way towards that goal. I will reiterate what I have on many occassions. Indic memes cannot defeat Abrahamic memes by becoming to fundamentalist than them, since Islam is as specialized as you can get in monotheistic fundamentalism. India's strength is in diversity.

Unleash the diversity of Indian meme-complex on abrahmic memes and they won't withstand the assault. Christ will end up as some avatar of Vishnu. Mohammad will end up as sai-baba or something similar. Allah will end up as 1001st name of Vishnu. However they try to maintain the separate identity, let us embrace them. They will dissolve.

If Indics started worshipping Christ and Muhammad as one of their many gods, wtf can muslims and christians do about it? over the period of time, statistically, who will assimilate whom? Once this starts happening, the brutal punishment which I am implying for a$$holes of pakjab, sindh, BD, NWFP and Gangetic plains won't be far away.

India should be seen as the punisher by all the punished. Only then will they understand who the boss is. Trying to kill the snake through hands of guest won't earn India respect she desires. With time, this YYY should go. It should only be India which is seen as lethal enforcer of her values alone. The other YY's influence gives abduls a reason to undermine India's authority and they fear and respect other two YY instead. And I guess this is happening post 26/11 and role of Yindoo hell bent on vengeance and reconquista will be seen more and more in the nightmares of paki abduls with time.

Excellent post.

Much is what is true and should be done!

[rkirankr]

Chiron wrote

So, in a way, Indian youth is overthrowing the mantle of value-system which is infact arisen due to Islamic supremacy and returning back to free and liberal Indic fold of life; because that is the "Dharma" of Bhaarat. However they are doing it in contemporary manner. This in itself is one way towards that goal. I will reiterate what I have on many occassions. Indic memes cannot defeat Abrahamic memes by becoming to fundamentalist than them, since Islam is as specialized as you can get in monotheistic fundamentalism. India's strength is in diversity.

Is it really? Though there is a rebellion , I do not think it is for exploring something new or are returning to the "Indic" fold as you say. In fact they are jumping from one ship to another. A western influenced culture in which some of the values which you mentioned above may exist to some extent. In fact in my experience as a teacher/ lecturer , I found that highly intelligent students were shockingly unaware of their culture values or any other culture or values. Whenever you rebel against something, inherently you have some other object/goal/destination which you feel is good. The population here is not seeing the liberal, free, rational and if I may add "thirst of knowledge at all cost" feeling of the Indic culture but by an anothere culture which has some liberal, some free thinking and puts on a appearance of rationality or may accept some degree of rationality.
I have come across many examples where people showcase that they are not traditional and are modern (usually pronounced modren) and accept some values because everybody else does it. My debates with them to think over the pros and cons have limited success.

[V_Raman]

the righteous path is to isolate the <word-that-must-not-be-said> and make the followers follow a different path.

[brihaspati]

Sanku ji,
in all fairness to the GOI, I think they are quite aware of the dangers in practical terms. But more importantly they are aware of the political fallout if the north really is forced to face the concerted efforts of USA+UK+TSP+PRC+Talebjabis. It will discredit and delegitimize all that the political grouping behind GOI has been posturing about ideologically.

They will try their best to stave off actual attacks. But in the process they will then be forced to compromise also - give apparently "small" concessions in the bargaining over the staving off. While the opponents of India will never give up until they are politically, militarily and identity-wise completely destroyed, the Indian leadership remains paralayzed in this acute dilemma.

They have already allowed so much infiltration of hostile ideologies through this very same process of "gradual" concessions, that they can only attack the base of these hostile forces to their own political suicide. So they have to restrain opposition to these hostile ideologies and forces on the one hand - weakening the real driving factors behind defence of India - leading further reliance on external "help". On the otherhand they will have to continue to give small concessions discreetly but continuously to the representative of hostile forces concerned poised outside India.

The recent tone of talks between USA and PRC, the publicity around cases of terror outrages in BD being now traced to Kashmiri militants, TSP media fireworks and the increasing highlighting of the networks of LET in USA and other places, indicates that J&K will be made up the scapegoat for failures in western and Chinese policies towards Jihadis. And it will be the ideologically paralyzed GOI which will have to face the brunt of pressure and the people of India to face the cost - of "Kashmir".

I would be happy if my assessemnt about the "north" turns out wrong and yours turn out correct. But my hunch is that the Jihadi networks through UP,, Bihar and WB are far stronger because when the circumstances come to that - Islamic populations nowhere have been able to shake off the dominance of Jihadis and Maulanas who almost inevitably fall in line behind Jihad. The potential opposing forces are split in their tactical debates - concede/submit/collaborate or resist/fight/destroy. There is no unified ideological command like that which rallies the Islamic.
In military/social coercion terms this always implies initial retreat.

[Abhi_G]

^^^

Brihaspati,

What do you mean by leadership of NI? Are you referring to INC? Actually if you see the region, where is INC? Are you talking at central level? Yes, it is INC. But does that mean that the compromises taken by the center will be accepted by lying down? I do not discount the danger that you are predicting. But there is still a but in the assessment. Maybe my optimism is a bit misplaced.

[SRoy]

^^
Not specifically INC. All political parties in North India.

[Jarita]

MJ Akbar asking for Muslim state in UP.

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... rties-lost

Are we looking for a Kashmir?

[Jarita]

Fareed Zakaria is Rahul Gandis informal foreign policy advisor

[Sanku]

I would be happy if my assessemnt about the "north" turns out wrong and yours turn out correct. But my hunch is that the Jihadi networks through UP,, Bihar and WB are far stronger because when the circumstances come to that - Islamic populations nowhere have been able to shake off the dominance of Jihadis and Maulanas who almost inevitably fall in line behind Jihad. The potential opposing forces are split in their tactical debates - concede/submit/collaborate or resist/fight/destroy. There is no unified ideological command like that which rallies the Islamic.
In military/social coercion terms this always implies initial retreat.

Bji, to clarify -- I agree with you to a great extent as always, the difference if any is in slightly different manner -- are the Jehadi's stronger than expected -- yes, is GoI paralyzed -- yes. Is there a lack of cohesive identity in those battling for India (the cohesiveness is deliberately broken by mind conditioning, the effects of which we keep seeing in threads like Indic identity)

But the good part -- 4 random posters (I count you among the random people with due apologies) have very clearly laid out what Indic was. A while back who is a Indian was also summarized very well, so such incidents tell me that the "new" generation is shaking off the dhimmitude and asking questions which were not yet asked (and some time westernization adds to this rather than taking away from it)

I also know that North India is waiting, so to say with bated breath for something to happen. There is restlessness that I have not known before -- there is energy there is churn in thoughts.

While we can still lose, all it needs is one icon who can gather the forces around it. Despite the best attempts of GoI and the media to restrain opposition to these hostile ideologies and forces have had a different unexpected reaction too, instead of the forces building up and moving into domain of action, the forces have continued to build up beyond the logical point where they would have burst out naturally. Hence the dammed forces which exists are massive.

It needs one tipping point and one leader.

I am not so concerned about how the stage is set -- I am more concerned about the presence of the Nayak to lead and the timing thereof -- I hope that the situation will provide the man.


Meanwhile we can keep preparing the ground.

[vera_k]

Fareed Zakaria is Rahul Gandis informal foreign policy advisor

Source? This is not good because he preferred to push the Pakistani POV in a Newsweek article after 26/11.

[Jarita]

Fareed Zakaria is Rahul Gandis informal foreign policy advisor

Source? This is not good because he preferred to push the Pakistani POV in a Newsweek article after 26/11.

There was an article talking about Raul Vinci recently where he mentioned Fareed. I should have grabbed the link but don't have it. Someone will bring it up

[brihaspati]

Sanku ji,
the steps in the Anglo Saxon plan are perhaps working out exactly in the way I was worried about. The pressure will mount (and is probably mounting) on GOI and the Congress to give formal sops and concessions to TSP and bear the costs of Jihadi encourgament that the US+UK+PRC has carried on for the last 50 years against the idea of India. Thus India will be asked to prop up the the civilian facade of TSP under which the Talebjabis+TSPA+ISI will carry on its islamist expansion agenda both west and east from the border grayzone of AFPAK. West into southern AFG and east across Pakjab to Kashmir Valley. While India's stake in AFG will sought to be replaced by PRC under PRC+TSP demands.

PRC is now solidly engaged in the Jihadi adventure and will do anything and everything to dismember or emasculate India. USA+UK as usual would give more weightage to their business and capital interests and therefore polish PRC boots. Their strategic assets among the Jihadis and TSPA are worth much more to them than the potential pain or trauma of Indians (who are mostly racially inferior pagans immersed in darkness anyway! from the white-christian viewpoint - and therefore expendable) whose lives or feelings are far less important than the precious TFTA's that roam their teritories.

This does not mean PRC is a great ally or friend. No, it is the same attitude with which the first Brits approached the Mughals or the other local potentates of India. They are going to lick the potentate boots and wait until they can prepare to destroy and takeover.

But meanwhile India suffers. For it has been claimed on India's behalf, that it is "oh so spiritual", and it never hits back, it never matches up penny by penny what the Anglo Saxon ruling elite's extreme selfishness and narrowness cooks up continuously. It never pays back in the same dirty coin. India's ruling elite follows the advice and observation - bend a little, and say to those who suffer as a result, oh don't worry - we are bedning now so that later they will bend.

The elite are by birth or ideology superior to the "natives" - either because of their Christianity, or Islamism, or their communism, or by the sheer heavy weight of their birth in certain families or clans. They are far above the "darkness" of the majority faith and culture, and they cannot rely on such inferior beings for power can they? So they need the outsiders, who had once defeated these very same "inferior" natives - and therefore worthy of worship. So the best strategy is to become the mediator between the natives and the outsiders - raising the spectre of leaning towards one in the eyes of the other - to gain maximum personal mileage.

They have socially, educationally, ideologically ensured that you will not get the "man" soon.

[Jarita]

Sanku ji,


But meanwhile India suffers. For it has been claimed on India's behalf, that it is "oh so spiritual", and it never hits back, it never matches up penny by penny what the Anglo Saxon ruling elite's extreme selfishness and narrowness cooks up continuously. It never pays back in the same dirty coin. India's ruling elite follows the advice and observation - bend a little, and say to those who suffer as a result, oh don't worry - we are bedning now so that later they will bend.

.

This whole mindset has been well elucidated in Caesers Messiah. They made a "turn the other cheek", "living in poverty" brand into the epitome of what an Indian should be

[brihaspati]

Jarita ji,
I am also quoting from your link about MJ Akbar:

What the Muslims of UP are looking for, but have been unable to articulate, is a defined political space within which they can find food-and-faith security. Given the passions that such a demand could arouse, this quest might surface obliquely rather than directly. On the table is Ajit Singh’s dream of a Harit Desh in western UP. Such a state will have a substantive Muslim population, as well as a string of important Muslim educational institutions, from Aligarh to Deoband. It will become a natural socio-economic magnet for Muslims of the north. The idea is still in an embryonic stage. Whoever articulates it, will have rung a wake-up call.

Sanku ji,
I think you understand what I have all along been hinting at.

[Jarita]

Jarita ji,
I am also quoting from your link about MJ Akbar:

What the Muslims of UP are looking for, but have been unable to articulate, is a defined political space within which they can find food-and-faith security. Given the passions that such a demand could arouse, this quest might surface obliquely rather than directly. On the table is Ajit Singh’s dream of a Harit Desh in western UP. Such a state will have a substantive Muslim population, as well as a string of important Muslim educational institutions, from Aligarh to Deoband. It will become a natural socio-economic magnet for Muslims of the north. The idea is still in an embryonic stage. Whoever articulates it, will have rung a wake-up call.

Sanku ji,
I think you understand what I have all along been hinting at.

Do these guys have some major think tanks, plotting and planning how to take over geographies? Pakistan, Bangladesh Kashmir and now Harit Pradesh.
Are we sitting ducks?

We need to have an armed population. Guns can really even out the field.
The reason my family had to run from Pakistan was because the could not defend themselves - They were scattered, relied and trusted their neighbours who ended up betraying them and did not have weapons or self defense training. Large concentrated groups with weapons trainingmay have efaced thi sbetter. Even now we are perpetually running away - from Kashmir etc. It's a set forumla - increase concentration in an area and push out the minorities. You see that with the Ghettos as well. We need to arm oursleves. There is no other option

[ramana]

The very idea of Dar ul Islam and Dar ul Harb is a think tank. It makes the ummah constantly think of how to expand and consolidate. And fromt here all the geo-political moves come.

During Khilafat days they had the mukhabart (intelligence agency) to do this. All those sufis were frontline troops to passify the kafirs.

[Jarita]

Ramana,
For some weird reason we wear our ouster from territories as a badge of honor. I've seen that with the older generation that was booted out of Pakistan and Kashmir. They have a sob story - we were betrayed, we are peace loving, we did not react. Some are still in a state of shock and don't talk abt it. I can only guess at what they went through.
It's not a badge of honor. You are bloody fools. It is our foolishness and warped perspectives that have concentrated us in a sorry version of India (compare the landmass we were across, vs our spread now). Where the hell is the anger?
There is severe cognitive dissonance. A normal human being feels anger as this ouster, at the rape and abduction of their dear ones. What is wrong with us? I don't see that anger in the partition generation or the Kashmiri Pandits.

[Atri]

Do these guys have some major think tanks, plotting and planning how to take over geographies? Pakistan, Bangladesh Kashmir and now Harit Pradesh. Are we sitting ducks?

The intellectual elite Or the "Muslim Salaariat" of UP left India in Partition. This Salariat is now re-grown. The displacement of Salariat from gangetic belt was biggest relief for Indics and biggest loss for Muslims in Indian subcontinent. While the Indics elsewhere have used this window quite efficiently in past 60 years for their own upliftment, Indics of Western UP have not.

The Pseudo-secular politics has in fact delayed the regrowth of Muslim Salaariat for as long as it could. But its about to arrive now. Deoband tested the waters by mischievous VM fatwa. Now, Harit-Desh which can serve as Dar ul Islam and provide food and faith security to pious biraders.

Since the later days of Aurangzeb, the Muslims of this region (Upper Doab) have been pain in the a$$. The Najib-ud-daullah and Shah Waliullah who invited Abdali were both from this region and repeatedly stabbed Marathas, Mughal emperor and Pathans in their back until they were packed off in 1770 by Marathas, although not thoroughly. Even Abdali took the name of Muslim-Salariat from Doab in bad-taste as back-stabbers.

Since Aurangzeb moved to Deccan, the elite of Doab were habituated to be the real power-centre of the mughal empire. It is interesting to note that, during 27-year long Mughal-Maratha war (1680-1707), when rest of India (most notably Bengal) suffered the most, the traders of Doab and Audh profited enormously. The revenue collection figures of Bengal and Upper Doab-Audh region shows 70% fall in bengal's production, but sharp 50% rise in revenues (and wealth) of people from upper doab-oudh. Since these times, the elite of this region is scheming of controlling the geo-politics and socio-economics of North-India. They have used Deccan, Afghans, British against each other to control the Gangetic plains from attock to assam. However thankfully, they were confined to upper doab (Rohilkhand) by Marathas, Afghans and later British.

It is the Salaariat from Doab which provided the ideological base to partition. It was Salariat which hoped to establish their superiority over Delhi and India after 1857. When that failed, it was Salariat from doab which opened up Darul Ulum Deoband, AMU, Jamia Milia. Khilafat movement started here and was confined to doab until Gandhi decided to jump in. Iqbal was from doab, so were Muhammad Ali and Shaukat Ali brothers. Liaqat ali khan was from this region, along with entire bureaucracy of newly independent TSP. Urdu is local language of this region, which is forcibly imposed on Pakjab, Sindh, Baluchistan, NWFP and POK.

Indics need to watch-out from now on.. I guess, if this demand starts picking up momentum, the tensions will start rising throughout the gangetic belt. I am curious about behaviour of Bengali Muslims, in case this materializes.

[Prem]

Notice the pun on Harit Pradesh=Green Pradesh.
In Punjab they will say , kiyon maut no awwaajaa maar riya. It wont be a Pradesh but In Pardesh. Jarita is right , Indian masses need militia to protect thier way of life, National Secular leadership has failed us miserably. Over all a very sand and disappointing time for Desh that we still have these back stabbing elemenst surviving in UP after making Pakistan . This article is just a vontinuation of of plan put in motion by Islamists to undermine Indian security. Secularists, Leftist , Islamists, from Merrut riot maker to Khaidhi to Akbar to SIMI to IMC to LET to AQ to Hadley to Rana or Dawood, all ek hi thaile ke Chatte Batte.

[Jarita]

Khilafat movement started here and was confined to doab until Gandhi decided to jump in. Iqbal was from doab, so were Muhammad Ali and Shaukat Ali brothers. Liaqat ali khan was from this region, along with entire bureaucracy of newly independent TSP. Urdu is local language of this region, which is forcibly imposed on Pakjab, Sindh, Baluchistan, NWFP and POK.

Indics need to watch-out from now on.. I guess, if this demand starts picking up momentum, the tensions will start rising throughout the gangetic belt. I am curious about behaviour of Bengali Muslims, in case this materializes.

Shabana Azmi, Javed Akhtar and other assorted types are also from this region.

[Prem]

[Indics need to watch-out from now on.. I guess, if this demand starts picking up momentum, the tensions will start rising throughout the gangetic belt. I am curious about behaviour of Bengali Muslims, in case this materializes.

I have been warning about this for the last few years and even go warning for pointing out the very same factors mentioned by you. Before we forget , we must ponder over the timing , why now and who is behind this kind of unholy thoughts? India is about to slip away from medieval parasitic forces and start journey to fulfil its destiny as a nation and civilization.
Jarita ji, Azamgarhis are the main soldiers of Dawood bhai .

[Atri]

[Indics need to watch-out from now on.. I guess, if this demand starts picking up momentum, the tensions will start rising throughout the gangetic belt. I am curious about behaviour of Bengali Muslims, in case this materializes.

I have been warning about this for the last few years and even go warning for pointing out the very same factors mentioned by you. Before we forget , we must ponder over the timing , why now and who is behind this kind of unholy thoughts? India is about to slip away from medieval parasitic forces and start journey to fulfil its destiny as a nation and civilization.
Jarita ji, Azamgarhis are the main soldiers of Dawood bhai .

This warning about watching out muslim-elite from upper doab has been persistently made since the time of Savarkar (1920's). Even Savarkar is very late, from what I can recollect, the first warning of the muslims of Rohilkhand is made since the days of Balaji Bajirao (Nanasaheb) Peshwa (1750's) that in the words that "this poisonous tree (Vish-Vriksha) will cause the ruin of Hindusthan". Even Sadashivrao Bhau (commander of Panipat campaign) warned about this future to Mughal emperor who was advised (by marathas) to keep the advisers from Rohilkhand (najib) away.

Azamgarhi people will be foot soldiers, Prem ji.. They will never be intellectual elite. Those who are educated in Upper-doab region (historically those who were native to that region) will give an ideological base to the fight put-forth by pious biraders. Dawood Kaskar was a two-bit smuggler and a marathi manoos originally from Alibag, Konkan, Maharashtra. The real man who converted a secular underworld don to religious underworld don was **Tiger Memon, again originally hailing from upper doab.

Many veteren cops of Mumbai believe that participating in 1993 bombings was the biggest mistake of dawood's. There would never have been a crack-down on Mumbai underworld, if Dawood had remained aloof from all this religious panga. Dawood now is a pawn of ISI, because if he does not oblige to them, they turn him over to RAW. The Rajan group (Hindus) separated from Dawood, after these bomb-blasts, thereby making it easier for cops to come down. Cops were unleashed by politicians, who had to cater to public opinion rising against dawood and underworld.

** Edited to add later - I am sorry about Memon.. Memons do not hail from Upper Doab, but from Sindh-Kathiawad-Gujarat region. Tiger Memon too was from similar ancestry. There are 4 theories of their origin. Three of them say that they were originally SDRE Lohanas and Rajputs. Fourth theory which Memons believe in the most, is that they are of TFTA Arab descent from Banu Tammi tribe and came to India along with Mohd. bin Qasim

[gandharva]

Since the later days of Aurangzeb, the Muslims of this region (Upper Doab) have been pain in the a$$.

Are these snakes ashrafs or azlafs?

[Atri]

Since the later days of Aurangzeb, the Muslims of this region (Upper Doab) have been pain in the a$$.

Are these snakes ashrafs or azlafs?

Historically, the Rohillas were Pathans who had migrated to India a century ago and settled in doab by post-Akbar rulers. Most of them claim to be direct-descendants of Arabic aristocracy. For example, the guy who played role in rejuvenation of political Islam after Aurangzeb, Shah Waliullah claimed descent from Quraish tribe. The second was Maulana Muhammad Qasim Nanotvi, who established Deoband madrassa too was quraish. Syed Ahmed khan was Pathan and Syed and hence Ashraf again.

All the notable personalities of our concern were ashrafs and claim TFTA descent.

I think Javed Akhtar, Kaifi Azmi et al are Shias (I am not sure), but they also have a TFTA ancestry. So does Aamir Khan (related to Maulana Abul Kalam Azad).. Interestingly, MJ Akbar's father was a Bihari Hindu who was adopted by a childless Muslim couple. Will have to check what Ziauddin Barrani says about Azlaf-Ashraf status of adopted Hindu child ...

[Atri]

Such a state will have a substantive Muslim population, as well as a string of important Muslim educational institutions, from Aligarh to Deoband. It will become a natural socio-economic magnet for Muslims of the north. The idea is still in an embryonic stage. Whoever articulates it, will have rung a wake-up call.

The magnet argument is very well chosen set of words. It refers to population displacement to the scale of one which happened during partition. It indeed rings a wake-up call.

[Jarita]

Who is MJ Akbar communicating this to?

[ramana]

Its Ajalf.

[Prem]

Who is MJ Akbar communicating this to?

He is communicating to outsiders , whosoever care to pay for the services. After the election , now feast time to devour Mother India, Piece by piece while SS brigade smoke the Indian Peace Pipe. The main question is how did he dare to even bring up the such demand. The Amar Singh is the local face of many powers inimical to india .

[Atri]

Who is MJ Akbar communicating this to?

That's what I have been thinking about. Is it just a "Matter of fact" statement? OR is it a demand disguised as innocent insinuation? OR is it a cheeky way of ending the article with bang?

Prem ji is right about SP and their "Bikaau" nature. They are open for sale now, since they are getting thrown out of UP by INC.

Here is exactly where the anomaly of North Indian system of politics revealed as both beginning and end..

INC has two choices

1. Not to finish off SP completely so that they do not sell national and civilizational interests for self-preservation..
2. OR, go for the kill and risk the sell-out (Which may or may not bring SP back into game)

This fundamental anomaly of North Indian politics is persistent since defeat of Harshawardhan by Pulikeshi-2. Typically, the dominant power does not go for a kill in NI politics. And the cycle (of appeasement and pseudo-secularism) repeats.

[Sanku]

Bji, Chiron, Prem and others.

I suppose we are solidly in one corner of the ring in our opinions and reading of the situation.

I do however feel that now is different from ever before, the NI belt has, for the first time in history after nearly 700 years of servitude finally seen independence for 60 years. Something which never happened even during the Maratha and Khalsa ascendancy.

It has fundamentally changed the situation -- we have seen one effect -- in 90s.

It would be too pessimistic to assume that all the forces that were unleashed at that point for reclaiming India for Indians and Indian heritage are wasted or spent too early.

Why does the "Man" need to come from the Elite, he/she will not -- it will be a Mayawati/Lalu like figure, NI politics has been toying with that prototype for a while (Modi, Kalyan Singh, Nitish Kumar, Mayawati) without hitting "the" person.

May be next iteration in 10-20 years? Triggered by the very inimical forces mentioned so far.

[kittoo]

Bji, Chiron, Prem and others.

I suppose we are solidly in ......
.......e very inimical forces mentioned so far.

I agree with Sanku ji. The freedom that was gained after 700 long years, wont be given back within 60 years. There is no way Hindus will agree to another partition of their country, and that too in making another homeland for Muslims.
Just not going to happen (and in my humble opinion, most probably never going to happen again).
Also, the importance of NI is generally too much. While its not the case today, I dont believe Hindus will let go Ganga in another country (for a big part that is, and the myriad holy places attached to it).

[harbans]

If Harit Pradesh goes, so does Uttaranchal. If Uttaranchal goes, Nepal is done within the next 50. The migration will swamp local populations in these areas quicker than one can imagine. Demographics in the NE states and West Bengal already have undergone major demographic iteration last 30-40 years. Hot air aside, we certainly are looking at some sort of partition demands within the next 50 years.

[Sanku]

Bji, Chiron, Prem and others.

I suppose we are solidly in ......
.......e very inimical forces mentioned so far.

I agree with Sanku ji. The freedom that was gained after 700 long years, wont be given back within 60 years.

There is one more +ve hope, if you look at Indian history through many years, the generation growing up in 70-80s would be the first generation to grow up which not brought to regard one of the above as the glorious successes and have seen the world through the ideological lenses of the same

Turko-Afgans, British, Nehruvian-Gandhianism, Communism

True as Achyara keeps saying, we have a mind experiment of "consumerist westernization" being carried on us (like South Korea) but the inherent issue in that approach is that it is essentially the same as "ideological vaccum"

Ideological vacuum coupled with presence of a strong ideological push from other sources can be very damaging (naxalism etc) but ideological vaccum in India alone will give Indic thoughts an oppertunity to come in.

I am told, often that the modern generation is becoming religious along with westernized (of course the religion part is meant negatively) -- this to me indicates that for the first time, all Indic thought as to compete internally with is status quoist and not with status quoist dhimmis + proseltyizers.

Please note I mean all the above only in context of elities, I do not wish away the dangers of prosletyzation to economically lower segments.

[Pranav]

If Harit Pradesh goes, so does Uttaranchal. If Uttaranchal goes, Nepal is done within the next 50. The migration will swamp local populations in these areas quicker than one can imagine. Demographics in the NE states and West Bengal already have undergone major demographic iteration last 30-40 years. Hot air aside, we certainly are looking at some sort of partition demands within the next 50 years.

At the time of independence, planners tried to make sure that no minority ghettos were left to fester. One of the motivations for designating Bhopal, Hyderabad, Ahmedabad as state capitals was to attract population influx and thereby dilute the minority ghetto character.

A new Green Pradesh attracting legions of illegal Bangladeshis is a nightmare scenario. The shameless treachery of our politicians is mind-boggling.

[Pranav]

There is one more +ve hope, if you look at Indian history through many years, the generation growing up in 70-80s would be the first generation to grow up which not brought to regard one of the above as the glorious successes and have seen the world through the ideological lenses of the same Turko-Afgans, British, Nehruvian-Gandhianism, Communism

I don't know - some of the gen-next Babas are also educated in UK-stan onlee.

[Abhi_G]

This fundamental anomaly of North Indian politics is persistent since defeat of Harshawardhan by Pulikeshi-2. Typically, the dominant power does not go for a kill in NI politics. And the cycle (of appeasement and pseudo-secularism) repeats.

Chiron, OT relative to this thread. Could you shed some light on the Harshvardhan vs Pulakeshi and Shashanka tussle? What was the implication on Bharat due to restraining of Harshavardhan north of Vindhyas and on the east (until Shanshanka's death). You are talking something about the political thinking of NI. Would you consider elaborating that in the distorted history thread?

What about the Pala empire that followed Harsha and controlled quite a large portion of India ? If you could post in the distorted history thread, that would be great.

TIA

[Jarita]

I know some of the folks will be pissed off but can anyone verify if Subramanyam Swamis assertions on Antonia Maino are accurate or not? Since 2004 India's security situation is deteriorating rapidly. We are really screwed. It cannot be a conincidence

This is the worst things have been in a long time. I don't think it is a question of spine. I think it is a question of swiss bank accounts, blackmail and ideology
- Kashmir
- Media indoc and attacks on national symbols
- Massive infilteration
- 0 upgrades in defence and virtual neglect
- First time India is importing foodgrains
- Maoist problem
- Harit Pradesh and other creeping sharia issues
- India checkmated in the international arena
I could go on and on