MRCA News and Discussion

[SaiK]

kinda.. but the paper report had more details..

btw here is something:-

“The big news is we’ve got the new F-22 Raptor,” says Alison Weller, aerospace director for F&E Aerospace, the event’s organiser. The F-22 fighter jet — a joint project of US aerospace companies Lockheed Martin, Boeing Co., and Pratt & Whitney — will be making its flying debut at the show.

....A US Air Force F-22 and a Typhoon from Britain’s Royal Air Force will join other aircraft performing aeronautics displays at the show.

http://www.gulfinthemedia.com/index.php ... caeb768543

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/14 ... le_header/

Raptor and Eurofighter go head to head
Battle of the supersonic white elephants wow this author is very explicit!...

Both the Raptor and Eurofighter were designed to win control of the skies from planes like the Su-27 and Mig-29, the last generation of Commie planes.

, and an even scarier Su-35 is planned, but nowadays the Russian design bureaux must live on gas revenues and export sales to the cheaper end of the Third World market, rather than the focused revenues of a vast empire. It is true that Western air forces might conceivably have to fight developing-world air forces equipped with exported Russian machines; but it's hardly the likeliest of missions for them.

Ordinary western fighters with modern missiles and electronic-warfare kit, backed by radar and tanker planes, cooperating with other forces and weapons such as imaging satellites and cruise missiles, could expect to win easily.

...sounds like a slam dunk !

But the Raptor and the Eurofighter are here anyway, the thunder of their jets shaking the buildings here at Farnborough

Raptor not present on the ground and visiting briefly just this once in the air on a day not open to the general public..
By contrast, Eurofighters and pilots will be on hand all this week - reflecting the reality that the Raptor isn't available for export sale (and may not be for the foreseeable future), whereas this is emphatically not the case with the Eurofighter. The Raptor is hot - the press gallery was packed out for its appearance, whereas the humdrum Eurofighter drew a fairly small crowd.

oh..ok, this is the only link that says, Raptor is out of bounds for the dubhaisheiks.

each operational Raptor will have cost US taxpayers perhaps £175m once the planned production run finishes. The price per Eurofighter which actually flies operationally in the RAF will probably be about the same, if current rumours of cost increases on the final batch are true. This seems like poor value; the Raptor appears to be every bit as much an agile, overpowered superfighter and it has Stealth too.

..then pretty much EADS will end as loser in India.. if they proceed with the same approach they have for the gaash rich gelf country.

The reality of geopolitics today is that these planes will never fight an equal battle against the Russian planes they were built to match. They might swat down a few rickety second-hand MiGs or Sukhois one day, above some Third World warzone; but it wasn't worth building them just for that, not when cheaper jets could do the job without more than minimal losses. Not when British and US ground troops are fighting and dying, suffering and losing battles unnecessarily, every day right now -

now.. the third world seems not so derogatory since, we are talking raptors , typhoons and stealth.

[Rahul M]

gripen vs rafale.
take it FWIW.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpo ... stcount=85

[saptarishi]

Boeing aims to win Indian deal with engine offer

Boeing has offered the Indian air force a more powerful new version of the General Electric F414 engine to bolster its bid to sell 126 F/A-18E/Fs for the medium multi-role combat aircraft programme.

Paul Oliver, Boeing's senior director for international business development, confirms the F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) was submitted as part of Boeing's proposal to win the MMRCA contract.

Boeing first revealed plans for the Super Hornet engine upgrade last May, but declined at that time to confirm the EPE would be formally offered to the Indian air force.

The US Navy conceived the upgrade a few years ago as an enhanced durability engine, with new materials and designs to bolster its service life. Subsequently, Boeing and GE teamed up to add a 20% increase in thrust by improving the engine's hot section. Both the durability and thrust improvements will be included in the EPE package.

Boeing also is discussing the EPE upgrade with potential new Super Hornet customers, such as Brazil, and existing operators like the USN. The USN has yet to make even the enhanced durability part of the EPE upgrade a funded programme for the Super Hornet.

Boeing is competing for the MMRCA deal against rival bids by the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, RSK MiG-35, Saab Gripen and Sukhoi Su-35.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ngine.html

[neeraj]

Boeing is competing for the MMRCA deal against rival bids by the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, RSK MiG-35, Saab Gripen and Sukhoi Su-35.

Is this correct. Su 35 is part of the MMRCA bid.

[Singha]

it is not - being hardly 'medium' in range, payload or size. it is a 'large hunter' as the french would say.

[karan_mc]

Lockheed adds probe to F-16 to attract India

The new probe-and-drogue refuelling capability was demonstrated to Indian pilots during flight
trials performed in September in India, said Rick Groesch, Lockheed’s regional vice-president for Middle East international business development.

so then. there will be no requirement to buy new Mid-Air re fullers and will work with Il-78 ,it is good since F-18 already has probe-and-drogue refuelling capability

http://idrw.org/?p=1709#more-1709

[NRao]

Lockheed adds probe to F-16 to attract India

The new probe-and-drogue refuelling capability was demonstrated to Indian pilots during flight
trials performed in September in India, said Rick Groesch, Lockheed’s regional vice-president for Middle East international business development.

so then. there will be no requirement to buy new Mid-Air re fullers and will work with Il-78 ,it is good since F-18 already has probe-and-drogue refuelling capability

http://idrw.org/?p=1709#more-1709

Flightglobal has been sleeping and idrw (the cut-and-paste website) is reporting a news item that is nearly a year old or perhaps more.

Karan,

There was never a question about new type of mid-air refuellers. The RFP dictates what the MRCA needs to have = probe-and-drogue was the one from the start. LM went on to modify her plane long back.

[karan_mc]

Flightglobal has been sleeping and idrw (the cut-and-paste website) is reporting a news item that is nearly a year old or perhaps more.

Karan,

There was never a question about new type of mid-air refuellers. The RFP dictates what the MRCA needs to have = probe-and-drogue was the one from the start. LM went on to modify her plane long back.

i donot know when it was integrated,but the new probe-and-drogue refuelling capability was demonstrated to Indian pilots during flight trials performed in September in India,

[Craig Alpert]

F-18 Super Hornets to Get IRST

The F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet Block IIs are just beginning to enter service, with significantly improved AN/APG-79 AESA radars and other electronic upgrades.Recent years have seen another spreading improvement within global fighter fleets, however: Infa-Red Search & Track (IRST) systems that provide long range thermal imaging against air and ground targets. Most of these deployments have been on Russian (MiG-29 family, SU-30 family) and European (Eurofighter, Rafale) fighters, or special American exports (UAE’s F-16E/F Block 60s, F-15K/SG).

[Cain Marko]

F-18 Super Hornets to Get IRST

Good! THe shornet is coming along indeed! The offer of the latest EPE 12 ton engines is also a good sign. I think its performance with the 414s left a bit to be desired in the flight evals despite the media blitz. No wonder then that within a couple of months of the flight evals, the more powerful engines are offered. All very good really.

If the IAF does get saddled with this bird, it better have all the goodies - IRST, AESA, towed decoy, ELS, exceptional thrust (the shornet more than any other mmrca bird needs it).

CM.

[Arun KS]

F-18 Super Hornets to Get IRST

Good! THe shornet is coming along indeed! The offer of the latest EPE 12 ton engines is also a good sign. I think its performance with the 414s left a bit to be desired in the flight evals despite the media blitz. No wonder then that within a couple of months of the flight evals, the more powerful engines are offered. All very good really.

If the IAF does get saddled with this bird, it better have all the goodies - IRST, AESA, towed decoy, ELS, exceptional thrust (the shornet more than any other mmrca bird needs it).

CM.

What about the cost?and its performance with respect to Su-30MKI also is the SU-35 also in the MMRCA as stated in the last line of this link http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=11909

[MarcH]

Question still remains if a higher thrust engine actually has any impact on performance. Static thrust of an engine means nada if it doesn't translate into significantly better installed thrust.
Does anybody know for sure if the offered Shornets have the radar blockers in the inlet ? Removing them alone would result in ~10-15% higher installed thrust.

[Baldev]

how much dry thrust will be increased in F414EPE which is still not clear,most of the time aircraft doesn't use afterburners.

and some people say rafale,typhoon,f18 are stealthier,but is semi stealth a requirement in purchasing aircraft?

[Singha]

nobody comes close to Massa in area of electronic strike and sensor pkgs. but onlee problem it needs the cash to convert all weapons into 'smart' and 'datalinked' weapons to fully exploit such capabilities. USAF has the money, other buyers may or may not be able to afford.

[Nihat]

Shiv aroor spoke very highly of the gripen today on a Headlines today special. Pointing out that as per original requirements , the Gripen is the most suited to the IAF needs.

[SaiK]

..but the shornets don't have OLS (mig35)!?

[MarcH]

Hey, Shornets get a 100k $ IRST installed in a droptank.

[Cain Marko]

Hey, Shornets get a 100k $ IRST installed in a droptank.

I think things may be changing, look at that diagram again and see where the IRST is located.

CM

[Craig Alpert]

Not sure whether this has been posted before or not.. But please DON'T SHOOT THE MESSANGER.. If it's a repost Mods please do the needful..
http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=28894&kwd=

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) headed by the Defence Minister Shri AK Antony has cleared the process for the procurement of 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force. During its meeting here today, the DAC debated various issues related to the initial purchase, transfer of technology, licensed production and life time maintenance support for the 126 MMRCA and gave the final go-ahead for the project.

In pursuant to the recent assurance given by the Defence Minister for an early issue of the much awaited Request for Proposal (RFP) for the 126 fighter jets, the Ministry of Defence and Indian Air Force officers have been working overtime to scrutinize all aspects of the RFP. In view of the size and operational importance of the likely purchase, the criteria for selecting the final MMRCA contender from amongst some of the best combat aircraft offered by American, Russian and European companies, has been fine tuned. The RFP would contain a selection model that would involve an exhaustive evaluation process as detailed in the Defence Procurement Procedures — 2006.

The proposals from the likely contenders would first be technically evaluated by a professional team to check for compliance with IAF’s operational requirements and other RFP conditions. Extensive field trials would be carried out to evaluate the performance. Finally, the commercial proposal of the vendors, short-listed after technical and field evaluations, would be examined and compared. The aircraft are likely to be in service for over 40 years. The vendors are required to provide a life time support and performance based warranty for the aircraft. MoD officials have confirmed that great care has been taken to ensure that only determinable factors, which do not lend themselves to any subjectivity, are included in the commercial selection model. The selection would be transparent and fair.
The DAC has approved that a majority of the MMRCA would be produced in India under transfer of technology. The vendor finally selected would also be required to undertake offset obligations in India. It is expected that the ToT and offset contracts would provide a great technological and economic boost to the indigenous defence industries, which would include DPSUs, RURs and other eligible private sector industries. Foreign vendors would be provided great flexibility in effecting tie-up with Indian partners, for this purpose.
There are three guiding principles for this procurement scheme. First, the operational requirements of IAF should be fully met. Second, the selection process should be competitive, fair and transparent, so that best value for money is realized. Lastly, Indian defence industries should get an opportunity to grow to global scales.

With the decks finally cleared, the RFP is planned to be issued in the near future.

Sitanshu Kar Friday June 29 2007

[SaiK]

q: how can the selection process be transparent?

then we have to engage the right to information button.

[Kartik]

The latest edition of AW&ST has an article on the Swiss competition that has the Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen shortlisted. By December, the Swiss govt. will detail the noise measurements which have become a key issue in Switzerland because of lack of airspace. Then, by the end of the year the Air Force will complete its technical evaluation, which is meant to be the backbone of the source selection process. Final source selection is expected to be in March. The numbers of fighters that will be eventually bought, though, is in flux. It is believed that they can no longer afford 30 fighters and maybe even 22 may be too much for them, with finally a dozen or so bought. With the Swiss competition being seen as a benchmark European selection process, the three bidders are doing their best to make their offers as attractive (or palatable ?) as possible.

Most interestingly, and this is the part that has made me post it in the MRCA thread, is the Typhoon bid to reduce its price. Eurofighter is developing an extremely aggressive cost proposal, which effectively means that its planning to offer the Tranche 3A standard Typhoon at Tranche 2 prices as part of increasingly urgent measures to secure international customers for the fighter. Already the UK has made it clear that it is under no obligation to buy any more Tranche 3 fighters than what it has agreed to buy recently (basically 16 new Typhoon T3A, with the rest adjusted against the 24 Tranche 2 Typhoons they diverted to RSAAF). Germany is also following the same route and has also offered the same argument, saying that its already expended what outlays it had made for its total Typhoon procurement. So, Tranche 3B orders may end up very heavily dependant on export orders, which is making the EF Consortium really work hard to reduce supplier costs. In the words of the article
"Since Typhoon's $100-$140 million unit price makes it more expensive than competitors, Eurofighter is putting pressure on suppliers to explore ways to reduce the price for the Tranche 3A configuration by around 15%. The consortium has asked suppliers to cut costs for components, systems and equipment amortized across an unspecified number of Tranche 3 aircraft, which will then be divided into 2 batches for onward sale. The main pricing constraint for EF is that they cannot offer export customers a lower price than that offered to home countries. However, since the Swiss are likely to buy a small number of fighters, offering the Swiss something very close to the German price, which is amortized over 31 units, would potentially solve this conundrum."

"Industry officials suggest that if successful, Eurofighter will use this cost-cutting approach in its campaign in India, Japan, Romania and Turkey as well as its possible opportunities in Croatia, Bulgaria, Greece and South Korea."

That means that if India does shortlist the Typhoon, and then open up talks on final price bids, Eurofigher may offer a price that is similar to what the UK (or Germany ? since they were leading the sales talks with India AFAIK) may have paid for their Tranche 3A fighters and it would more than make up for the shortfall in numbers due to Germany and UK reducing their Tranche 3B numbers. Although whether that would still be affordable for India considering the unit prices and the total units we're talking about, is debatable.

Last month's Air International, which featured IAF Jaguars at Ambala (I'll scan those by this weekend) also had a feature on the Typhoon in the RAF. Apparently, the rate at which they're using up airframe life is very similar to the rate at which the IAF used up the airframe life on the first 18 Su-30K and MKs- they're basically flogging them. At the current rate, (30 hours per month for each airframe, meaning 3600 hours in a decade) Tranche 1 Typhoons will be retired by 2020 and thats for a fighter with 6000 hours design fatigue life ! And in another similarity to the Su-30MKI, apparently Typhoon Tranche 2 and 3 are so different from the Tranche 1 internally, that the UK has figured out that its costlier to upgrade all its Tranche 1 and 2 Typhoons to Tranche 3A standard, than to purchase brand new T3A Typhoons and replace them itself and that too by nearly 1 billion pounds ! Plus with only a decade of residual airframe life left in them, the T1 Typhoons aren't considered worth being upgraded to that standard. The problem is also that with such less airframe life left, they're not particularly attractive for export either. But with the RAF's Typhoon numbers being slashed repeatedly, with recent reports suggesting that only 120 will eventually serve, its becoming quite obvious that they will be left with no alternative but to either store some of their Typhoons and offer them for export, or just keep them in reserve permanently.

I don't know if the IAF will be keenly keeping an eye out on these figures. It may well be that keeping Typhoons state-of-the-art over 30 years, as the IAF would want, may well be too costly for us. that is, unless the EF Consortium allows HAL/DRDO to develop their own upgrades that could be derived from the FGFA.

[SaiK]

for EADS to play well, their price has to be somewhere near $70M-80M per peice. I am sure this to include ToT expenses, and weapons package. By indiaginzing the cost may be further reduced by locally producing the ToTed parts at 30-50% of the original seller cost.

Eq: $10b/126=$79M per a/c.

[BajKhedawal]

In recession Boeing is hiring and expanding in South Carolina, is it in anticipation of the MRCA deal?

[SaiK]

that would be for their 787 jetliners

[Kartik]

In recession Boeing is hiring and expanding in South Carolina, is it in anticipation of the MRCA deal?

Not at all. They build Super Hornets in St. Louis. And only the first 18 will be built in the home country- the rest will all be built at HAL facilities in India.

Regarding the new plant in South Carolina, the Boeing workers union (not engineers) and the politicians in the state of Washington, where Boeing builds its civil airliners, basically screwed themselves. Boeing wanted them to sign on a dotted line saying that they would not strike like they did last year, for at least another 10 years. The unions refused initially and Washington state politicians (being Democrats) were backing the workers, with the Governor of Washington being seen as pro-workers by the Boeing corporation, including standing in picket lines when the workers were striking for over 40 days. Then, when Boeing corp made it pretty clear that they would seriously set up the new plant in SC, the unions agreed to sign on the dotted line, as long as Boeing would build all its future airliners also in Seattle. Boeing refused and with tax sops being offered and the much lower cost of living in South Carolina, Boeing decided to setup the second line for the 787, in South Carolina. Takes away 3000 jobs from the city of Seattle and in the long run, may well mean Boeing may move out of the state for future airliners. But as of now, the engineering is still done in Everett and Renton only. Most of the recruitment will be happening will be for manufacturing and technicians jobs.

[Kartik]

for EADS to play well, their price has to be somewhere near $70M-80M per peice. I am sure this to include ToT expenses, and weapons package. By indiaginzing the cost may be further reduced by locally producing the ToTed parts at 30-50% of the original seller cost.

Eq: $10b/126=$79M per a/c.

What you're talking of is not the flyaway cost, its much more. IMO, there is no way that a Tranche 3 Typhoon with AESA, would be available for $80 million and that too with ToT and weapons. This is one helluva expensive fighter and the sole reason for the UK and Germany wanting to curtail their numbers in the Tranche 3 purchase is the cost even with all the training and support and maintenance infrastructure in place. Even countries with jobs, that too in the hi-tech aerospace sector on the line cannot afford it. even if Eurofighter manages to reduce its supplier cost for parts, equipment, one has to take into account that the first few years of training and support infrastructure will also be included in the cost of the deal. if affordability is the only factor that will eventually be the key between the MRCA contenders (as ACM Naik recently said, they were running neck to neck in flight trials) then I'm afraid the Typhoon stands no chance whatsoever and nor does the Rafale. The F-16IN and the Gripen NG will be the likeliest final contenders, and if politics plays its part, the F-16IN stands a very good chance.

[Baldev]

typhoon,not even radar is built by single country
http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofi ... ptor_2.gif

[Baldev]

minimum U turn radius of R73 compared to AIM9M for dogfight
http://sistemadearmas.sites.uol.com.br/ ... velope.jpg

so it would be interesting to know what are the minimum U turn radius of other advanced short range missiles

[sumshyam]

EFFECT OF ACCELERATION ON MISSILES..!!!
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... f96e1b0850

[SaiK]

well having gone EADS way, and inviting Rafale and Typhoon expecting them with competing with Raptor on cost angle, it is surprising we let this happen when F35 was ignored, and kept it separate line of interest only if F16s were inducted for a gradual progression.

best bang for the buck strategy is needed or best buck for the bang that makes the seller happy!? coming down on cost is definitely a selling point for Rafale and Typhoon, but we still need to compare them with other a/cs that is not contending like Raptor and F35 lightning., that way we see how our investments are made, and what are we getting for the same.

any link that has fly-away-cost comparision of all these a/cs with various weapons configuration and other details? google didn't lead me to a single site has this.

[MarcH]

Hey, Shornets get a 100k $ IRST installed in a droptank.

I think things may be changing, look at that diagram again and see where the IRST is located.

CM

Oh well, in the article linked below that cutaway they only refer to the tigereye installed in a droptank.

[Baldev]

Hey, Shornets get a 100k $ IRST installed in a droptank.
I think things may be changing, look at that diagram again and see where the IRST is locatedCM

Oh well, in the article linked below that cutaway they only refer to the tigereye installed in a droptank.

not a big deal,even recce/targeting pods can be used as IRST

[SaiK]

How much of a problem would be a missile like 'paki owned gripenish swedish supplied RBS70' for any of our MRCA candidates?

[Kartik]

Eurofighter may soon decide on which AESA they will fit on the Typhoon.

Selex: Eurofighter partners near agreement on AESA radar
By Craig Hoyle

The Eurofighter partner nations are moving towards an agreement to integrate an active electronically scanned array radar with the type, as discussions over Tranche 3A production near a conclusion.

"We are talking at great length, and there is a gradual coming together," says Bob Mason, vice-president marketing and sales for Selex Galileo, prime contractor and design authority for the Eurofighter Typhoon's current mechanically scanned Captor radar. "A lot of things are pulling E-scan to the fore, and we expect some sort of agreement within two to three months."

Selex, which produces over 50% of the Captor system at its facilities in Edinburgh, Scotland and Milan, Italy, believes the addition of an AESA array will be a vital step towards the Typhoon securing additional sales with nations such as India and Japan.

"The Typhoon needs an E-scan radar, or it will not export," says Mason. Rival types such as the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Dassault Rafale are already being offered with AESA systems.

EADS conducted test flights with the Euroradar consortium's Caesar active array using a Eurofighter development aircraft in 2007, and Selex has also previously supplied AESA systems to the UK Ministry of Defence for evaluation in fast jet types such as the Panavia Tornado. A prototype of the company's Vixen 1000E/Raven ES05 is also now in flight test with Saab's Gripen Demo airframe, with this viewed as a de-risking activity for a possible larger version for the Typhoon. A prototype AESA array was recently installed on Saab's Gripen Demo aircraft

"E-scan was previously looked at as risky and potentially costly. Now the risk of doing nothing is worse," says Alastair Morrison, deputy senior vice-president radar and advanced targeting for Selex Galileo. "It's in everyone's interest to make this work."

Selex says an AESA array could now be produced for the same cost as a mechanically scanned system, but deliver a five- to 10-times increase in mean-time between critical failures, reducing maintenance and other through-life support costs. The new technology also brings advances in detection range and performance, for example by operating "virtually instantaneously" in both air-to-air and air-to-ground modes. Selex has also developed a "swashplate repositioner", which enables the normally fixed AESA array to be moved laterally by +/-100°. "Germany now believes a repositioner of some sort is desirable," says Mason.

An AESA version of the Captor could also potentially be retrofitted to Tranche 2 aircraft for Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK. Separately, Mason says Selex is now investigating wider uses for AESA radar technology, including possible communications and electronic attack modes. "We are looking at all applications," he says.

[Philip]

The horrendous costs being mentioned for fighter aircraft designed to fight Cold War battles,only underlines my point about numbers and costs and ease of induction,training and maintenance and life-support .Most of the western fighters are just too expensive and frankly,as many ananlysts have pointed out,burdened with so much of external ordnance,stealth capabilities are a real joke.Add to this the extra cost of BVR missiles and the reality from all conflicts in the past-where missiles and expensive ordnance rapidly get expended in the first few weeks of battle,ultimately,forces have to then depend upon old ordnance like "dumb" bombs when there is no more smart munitions available and rely on dogfighting abilities in close combat.

Recently,a British expert,in the key decision making post of acquisitions,said that it never failed to surprise him that the costs of weapon systems simply overshot budgets and when these weapon systems finally arrived,after much delay,they failed to meet the required paramaters! We are seeing that with the Typhoon in particular and the venerable F-18's manufacturers have also realised that in the Indian environment,especially the heat of the desert,the aircraft simply hasn't got the required power to perform as touted just as the poor LCA Tejas is similarly handicapped with another GE engine that cannot perform particularly at sea level.If one is serious about costs,the way to go is to simply order more of the types in service especially the SU-30MKI,extra upgraded Jaguars,perfect the LCA MK-2 asap and add MIG-35s to upgraded MIG-29s.The French seem to be pricing their products just too high.Perhaps a Rafale win in Brazil might make them offer a more competitive price for this contest.A Twin-engined fighter is a must in the context of the sub-continent,where bird strikes and engine flameouts are more prevalent.

[NRao]

When did "stealth" become part of the MRCA concept?

Hanging weapons is integral to ALL the participants.

[Philip]

Stealth is one of the requirements,though the aircraft isn't intended to rival the F-22 or 5th-gen fighter. The stealthiest of the lot will score some points,as in BVR combat the one who shoots first hopes to score first! If the technology/aircraft is supposed to last 40+ years as stated,then an aircraft with a lot of composites and stealth features will score over one that has less,costs notwithstanding.If we wanted a stupid dumb truck there were many other options.Incidentally,the decision to buy off the shelf 75 basic trainers iwhich include the Pilatus in the list,is a very wise one.Some of these aircraft are actually combat capable and will assist in COIN ops.

[NRao]

There is a set of MRCA requirements AND THEN there is MRCA requirements++. It is in this second group that stealth for MRCA falls - great if it is there, but per the original rec I do not every recall it being part of it.

We cannot make up things as we go along. Made-up things soon become "real".

Not having RFP is a big headache. The only decent sources are the vendors. And, I do not recall ANY vendor mentioning stealth as a rec.

[SaiK]

sounds like many have a strong handle on the RFP, and RFP++. any one care to throw more light into those links

[NRao]

sounds like many have a strong handle on the RFP, and RFP++. any one care to throw more light into those links

Like I said the best sources are the vendors. There are few crumbs dropped by Indian side (MoD and IAF), but they are not as good in details as the vendors.