Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

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Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Is that really the case in China? Aren't exports the fundamental driver of growth, with state spending on construction coming second? In which case as L Dev suggested the real threat is overcapacity, and a massive loss of return on investment should PRC inc. lose its cost advantage.

Secondly, given state ownership and control of banks, isnt it likely that the PRC can disguise the extent of losses for far, far longer than Japan, US, or Europe, avoiding the dramatic credit crunch that seized up their economies?
Something's gotta give. IMO it will be unemployment levels in the west racing past tolerable levels. Should happen within the next 12-18 months, IMO.

Overcapacity - classic deflationary symptom - in the US is running high. That in PRC would be 10x more. So PRC disguising its problems will last for only as long as its export machine (40% of its GDP) finds markets outside.
ldev
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by ldev »

Some observations in no particular order:

*Bill Gross of PIMPCO in his December newsletter suggests China might revalue the yuan upwards sometime in the next 6 months - an effort to appease the chorus of complaints from around the world perhaps? The real question is by how much. Probably an effort to buy time and divide people suggesting tougher action against the PRC.

*A recent article in Bloomberg illustrating how a wide swathe of exporters from Japan to South Korea to Indonesia to India are feeling the pain from the Chinese manipulation of the yuan.

*When a country of just over 100 million people such as Japan or countries of <100 million such as Germany or South Korea do an export led growth model, the rest of the world can absorb some of the slack. But when a country of 1 billion plus people does it, the sheer size of the distortion places severe strain on the rest of the world.

China will eventually have to move to a Consumption led economy. But the process will not be as market driven as in Japan, Germany or even South Korea (which was quite state controlled). The timing of the decision to move to Consumption will be done based on the global geoeconomic objectives of the CPC. If I was to hazard a guess (and I could be wrong), I would say it would be when the CPC is quite certain that momentum is strong enough for it to be within striking distance at least in terms of raw GDP numbers with the US economy such that the PRC will have a veto on global economic decisions. I realize that this is quite a profound statement but the actual actions of the PRC tend to rule out other less profound possibilities.

Added later:
The move to domestic consumption is already happening in a sense but the reliance on exports is still the primary driver. The size of the domestic automobile market and some other consumables such as alcohol is now significant in global terms.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by shyamd »

Deals with some of the issues regarding asset inflation. Go to the link and watch the video, Mervyn King gives his explanation about the so called asset bubble being created.

Three-way on the MPC
Post categories: Bank of England

Stephanie Flanders | 13:26 UK time, Wednesday, 18 November 2009


The nine men and women who set British monetary policy agree that the next few years for the economy are not going to be much fun. But they don't all agree on what to do.

As the minutes of the November meeting reveal, seven members of the Monetary Policy Committee voted to buy another £25bn-worth of assets over the next three months. But two voted against.

David Miles wanted an expansion of £40bn, to keep the asset sales running at the same pace as before. (It would be £50bn, but quantitative easing was always going to take a breather over Christmas. Presumably the Bank thinks that injections of good cheer from Father Christmas will be more than enough to fill the gap.)

The second "no" vote is the more interesting, since it came from the Bank's chief economist, Spencer Dale, who preferred to leave policy unchanged.

Judging from unattributed comments in the minutes, this was partly because he was worried about the sheer uncertainty about the amount of spare capacity in the economy, and the implications of that for inflation.

But he also thought there was a risk that further injections of cash would result in "unwarranted increases in some asset prices that could prove costly to rectify, complicating the task of meeting the inflation target in future."

This has been a growing concern among policy-makers around the world in recent weeks. I raised it directly with the Governor, Mervyn King, at last week's press conference. He gave a robust response - some might say, surprisingly so. (You'll see he makes a scathing comment about people seeing "bubbles" in every asset price rise, when I had chosen my words rather carefully. Not that I took it personally, or anything...)

Now, perhaps, we have one reason for his giving such a lengthy and forceful reply. He's been having the same debate with his Chief Economist.

Should we be worried about a new asset price bubble? The current answer - at the Federal Reserve and at the Bank - is "no". In fact, I doubt that Spencer Dale thinks it's something that needs to be addressed next week or next month.

The agreed wisdom, elucidated by Mervyn King in his answer to me, is that there are two types of bubble: those driven by sheer investor exuberance, and those driven by exuberance plus shedloads of new credit.

In theory, it's only the credit-fuelled binges you have to worry about, because they bring excess levels of leverage - debt - into the equation. Frederic Mishkin also provided a clear statement of this argument in the FT at the start of last week.

When you or I lose money in the stock market (assuming that most of you aren't hedge fund managers), it's usually going to be through our pension fund or ISA. All that happens is the value of the assets in the fund go down, and we are a bit cross. When you have an asset boom, without a heavy expansion of credit, most investors in the market are like that.

But with a credit boom, more of those assets are going to be held by people or institutions who borrowed to buy them. And if the price goes down, they may have to sell them to service that debt (or pay it back). That will lower the price again, causing another round of sales, and so on.

Leverage makes the returns that much tastier when asset prices are on the way up - which in turn takes prices up even further. But it also makes the collapse in prices that much more costly for everyone involved.

Of course, I'm grossly simplifying. In the past year or two, great tomes have been written on the precise dynamics of this latest boom and bust. But credit - and the leverage it created - was the core of the problem.

We know that small businesses and households are not seeing big a expansion of credit coming their way. But is loose credit driving a "risky" run-up in world asset markets? The conclusion of a report produced yesterday by Paul Ashworth, the Chief US Economist for Capital Economics, is "no".

Mr Ashworth went through the numbers looking for evidence to back up the view that the world was "awash with dollars", driving up asset markets in the US but also world-wide, via a revived version of the "carry trade". He didn't find find any. Yes, the monetary base - the narrowest measure of money supply - is expanding. It would be amazing it it weren't, given the Fed's asset purchases. But debt - or leverage - is not expanding. In fact, the evidence is that institutions are still trying to reduce the debt on their balance sheets.

He produces loads of charts to make the point. Let me just give you two here: the first shows how bank balance sheets are still shrinking. The second shows that the expansion of dollar liquidity (the amount of dollars in circulation) has been slowing down recently - though it's interesting to me that is still well above the rates of growth seen after the end of the dotcom boom in 2001.

Commercial bank credit
Image

Global dollar liquidity
Image

I don't think this disposes of the question entirely. There's plenty of cash flowing into emerging market economies that wouldn't be captured in Mr Ashworth's charts. It may not be a "credit-type boom", but you could forgive those developing-country governments for failing to spot the difference.

More fundamentally, it is quite reasonable to worry - as Spencer Dale apparently does - about the long-term effect on asset markets of a prolonged period of extraordinarily loose monetary policy. It is just not very healthy to have the risk-free rate of interest (that is, the yield on government debt) set, in effect, not by investors but by the central bank.

Then again, there's a lot about the past few years that's been pretty unhealthy from an economic standpoint. We are where we are.

In the minutes of this latest MPC meeting, several are said to have pointed out that expanding the programme by £25bn would also "bring forward the point at which the extraordinary degree of stimulus could begin to be withdrawn, if the projected impact was realised."

They would rather not be here. And now here, they would rather get out sooner than later. They just need the broader economy to co-operate.
Neshant
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Neshant »

If he does step down, i predict he will get a fantastic job offer from one of the many banks he bailed out. He's played his part as an insider for the banks. Soon it will be time to reap rewards when he leaves office.

-----

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner asked to step down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2i7cxUEOXc
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

^ PRC going the consumption route runs into serious structural obstacles.

Savings rate is so high (~40%-50%) among aam Chinese precisely because of (i) lack of a reliable nationwide social safety net which isn't likely to come up comprehensively in the next decade, and (ii) lack of genuine alternatives/investment avenues to deploy the deluge of excess savings --> savings endup captive of PRC's state owned banks --> which are then lent out based on unsound lending practices to state owned enterprises or party-crony enterprises --> recovery of loans is dodgy at best --> loans are effectively bad but not yet shown to be so in the books.

IOW, most of cheena's banking sector will require its own bailout - the size of it is sure to impress (if not depress).

So yes, while I am all applaudy-applaudy about cheena's growth figs, am not yet convinced about how wise or sustainable it has been. Time will tell, I guess.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Singha »

it had to happen and will cascade.....Univ of california to raise UG fees by 32% next fall.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/educa ... ml?_r=1&hp
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Singha wrote:it had to happen and will cascade.....Univ of california to raise UG fees by 32% next fall.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/educa ... ml?_r=1&hp
So it begins. Already khanian janta graduate with the highest student debt burdens in the history of the world. And with the worst job mkt in decades, it will soon become pertinent to ask what a college degree is really worth anyway.

Also, note what proportion of pvt college tuitions are levied from phoren students who now have little chance of finding a H1B sponsor after graduation.

I see socialism-lite ahead - the german/canadian higher ed model will sure look appetizing to too many folks very soon indeed.

So also in medicine. Structural socio-ekhanomic changes up ahead, ahoy!
svinayak
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by svinayak »

Singha wrote:it had to happen and will cascade.....Univ of california to raise UG fees by 32% next fall.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/educa ... ml?_r=1&hp
I was in an alumni meeting and the topic was the fed and economy. It was as if going thru BR economic thread.
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Investment guru Sri Marc Faber on Gold.
I believe that whereas in the past the USD 1000 per ounce level was kind of a resistance level, now it becomes a support level. I don’t think that you’ll see gold below a USD 1000 per ounce probably ever again.

So I’m actually quite positive. Maybe gold at this level is a better buy than it was at USD 300 per ounce in 2001.
Period.

link

He says that in his CNBC TV-18 interview. Thats a desi channel. :)
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

For the record:

Three Month T Bill Rates Go Negative On Concern Risk Rally Overdone (Bloomberg)
Nov. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Treasury three-month bill rates turned negative for the first time since financial markets froze last year on concern that the rally in higher-yielding assets has outpaced the prospects for economic growth.

Investors were willing to pay the government to hold their money as stocks slid amid speculation the eight-month, 68 percent rally that drove the valuation of the MSCI World Index to the most expensive level in seven years already reflects forecasts for a 25 percent rebound in corporate earnings next year. Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis President James Bullard yesterday said experience indicates policy makers may not start to increase interest rates until early 2012.
...
Bill Gross, who runs the world’s biggest bond fund at Pacific Investment Management Co., said the “systemic risk” of new asset bubbles is rising with the Fed keeping interest rates at record lows.

“The Fed is trying to reflate the U.S. economy,” Gross wrote in his December investment outlook posted on the Newport Beach, California-based company’s Web site today. “The process of reflation involves lowering short-term rates to such a painful level that investors are forced or enticed to term out their short-term cash into higher-risk bonds or stocks.”

The central bank lowered its target rate to a range of zero to 0.25 percent in December and purchased $300 billion of Treasuries this year as part of its effort to lower consumer borrowing costs and support the housing market, the collapse of which triggered the worst slump since the Great Depression....
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by shyamd »

These 2 articles support and explains Vina's view a bit further.

China has now become the biggest risk to the world economy
Far from taking over as the engine of growth from an exhausted West, China is making matters worse. Its "beggar-thy-neighbour" policies continue to play havoc with global trade and risk tipping the world into a second leg of the Great Recession.

"The inherent problems of the international economic system have not been fully addressed," said China's president Hu Jintao. Indeed not. China is still exporting overcapacity to the rest of us on a grand scale, with deflationary consequences.

While some fret about liquidity-driven inflation, Justin Lin, World Bank chief economist, said the greater danger is that record levels of idle plant almost everywhere will feed a downward spiral of job cuts and corporate busts. "I'm more worried about deflation," he said.

By holding the yuan to 6.83 to the dollar to boost exports, Beijing is dumping its unemployment abroad – "stealing American jobs", says Nobel laureate Paul Krugman. As long as China does it, other tigers must do it too.

Western capitalists are complicit, of course. They rent cheap workers and cheap plant in Guangdong, then lobby Capitol Hill to prevent Congress doing anything about it. This is labour arbitrage.

At some point, American workers will rebel. US unemployment is already 17.5pc under the broad "U6" gauge followed by Barack Obama. Realty Track said that 332,000 properties were foreclosed in October alone. More Americans have lost their homes this year than during the entire decade of the Great Depression. A backlog of 7m homes is awaiting likely seizure by lenders. If you are not paying attention to this political time-bomb, perhaps you should.

President Obama said before going to China this week that Asia can no longer live by shipping goods to Americans already in debt to their ears. "We have reached one of those rare inflection points in history where we have the opportunity to take a different path," he said. Failure to take that path will "put enormous strains" on America's ties to China. Is that a threat?

It is fashionable to talk of America as the supplicant. That misreads the strategic balance. Washington can bring China to its knees at any time by shutting markets. There is no symmetry here. Any move by Beijing to liquidate its holdings of US Treasuries could be neutralized – in extremis – by capital controls. Well-armed sovereign states can do whatever they want.

If provoked, the US has the economic depth to retreat into near autarky (with NAFTA) and retool its industries behind tariff walls – as Britain did in the 1930s under Imperial Preference. In such circumstances, China would collapse. Mao statues would be toppled by street riots.

Mr Hu sounded conciliatory last week. China is taking "vigorous" steps to cut reliance on exports, still 39pc of GDP. "We want to increase people's ability to spend," he said.

Beijing is indeed boosting pensions and extending health insurance to the countryside so that people feel less need to save, but cultural revolutions take time. All we have seen so far are "baby steps", says Morgan Stanley's Stephen Roach.

The reality is that much of Beijing's $600bn stimulus has been spent building yet more plant and infrastructure so that China can ship yet more goods, or has leaked into property and stocks.

Credit has exploded. Allocated by Maoist bosses for political purposes, it has become absurd. China is rolling as much steel as the next eight producers combined. It is churning more cement than the rest of the world. Fixed investment is up 53pc this year. Once you know that Hunan authorities have torn down two miles of modern flyway so that they can soak up stimulus by building it again, or that the newly-built city of Ordos is sitting empty in Inner Mongolia, you know what must come next.

Pivot Asset Management said lending has touched 140pc of GDP, "well beyond" levels that have led to crises in the past. With the revolution's 60th birthday out of the way, the central bank has begun to tighten. New yuan loans halved in October. So be careful. Pivot said a hard-landing in China could prove as traumatic for world markets as the US sub-prime crash.

The world economy is still skating on thin ice. The West is sated with debt, the East with plant. The crisis has been contained (or masked) by zero rates and a fiscal blast, trashing sovereign balance sheets. But the core problem remains. The Anglo-sphere and Club Med are tightening belts, yet Asia is not adding enough demand to compensate. It is adding supply.

My view is that markets are still in denial about the structural wreckage of the credit bubble. There are two more boils to lance: China's investment bubble; and Europe's banking cover-up. I fear that only then can we clear the rubble and, very slowly, start a fresh cycle.
World Out of Balance
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: November 15, 2009

International travel by world leaders is mainly about making symbolic gestures. Nobody expects President Obama to come back from China with major new agreements, on economic policy or anything else.

But let’s hope that when the cameras aren’t rolling Mr. Obama and his hosts engage in some frank talk about currency policy. For the problem of international trade imbalances is about to get substantially worse. And there’s a potentially ugly confrontation looming unless China mends its ways.

Some background: Most of the world’s major currencies “float” against one another. That is, their relative values move up or down depending on market forces. That doesn’t necessarily mean that governments pursue pure hands-off policies: countries sometimes limit capital outflows when there’s a run on their currency (as Iceland did last year) or take steps to discourage hot-money inflows when they fear that speculators love their economies not wisely but too well (which is what Brazil is doing right now). But these days most nations try to keep the value of their currency in line with long-term economic fundamentals.

China is the great exception. Despite huge trade surpluses and the desire of many investors to buy into this fast-growing economy — forces that should have strengthened the renminbi, China’s currency — Chinese authorities have kept that currency persistently weak. They’ve done this mainly by trading renminbi for dollars, which they have accumulated in vast quantities.

And in recent months China has carried out what amounts to a beggar-thy-neighbor devaluation, keeping the yuan-dollar exchange rate fixed even as the dollar has fallen sharply against other major currencies. This has given Chinese exporters a growing competitive advantage over their rivals, especially producers in other developing countries.

What makes China’s currency policy especially problematic is the depressed state of the world economy. Cheap money and fiscal stimulus seem to have averted a second Great Depression. But policy makers haven’t been able to generate enough spending, public or private, to make progress against mass unemployment. And China’s weak-currency policy exacerbates the problem, in effect siphoning much-needed demand away from the rest of the world into the pockets of artificially competitive Chinese exporters.

But why do I say that this problem is about to get much worse? Because for the past year the true scale of the China problem has been masked by temporary factors. Looking forward, we can expect to see both China’s trade surplus and America’s trade deficit surge.

That, at any rate, is the argument made in a new paper by Richard Baldwin and Daria Taglioni of the Graduate Institute, Geneva. As they note, trade imbalances, both China’s surplus and America’s deficit, have recently been much smaller than they were a few years ago. But, they argue, “these global imbalance improvements are mostly illusory — the transitory side effect of the greatest trade collapse the world has ever seen.”

Indeed, the 2008-9 plunge in world trade was one for the record books. What it mainly reflected was the fact that modern trade is dominated by sales of durable manufactured goods — and in the face of severe financial crisis and its attendant uncertainty, both consumers and corporations postponed purchases of anything that wasn’t needed immediately. How did this reduce the U.S. trade deficit? Imports of goods like automobiles collapsed; so did some U.S. exports; but because we came into the crisis importing much more than we exported, the net effect was a smaller trade gap.

But with the financial crisis abating, this process is going into reverse. Last week’s U.S. trade report showed a sharp increase in the trade deficit between August and September. And there will be many more reports along those lines.

So picture this: month after month of headlines juxtaposing soaring U.S. trade deficits and Chinese trade surpluses with the suffering of unemployed American workers. If I were the Chinese government, I’d be really worried about that prospect.

Unfortunately, the Chinese don’t seem to get it: rather than face up to the need to change their currency policy, they’ve taken to lecturing the United States, telling us to raise interest rates and curb fiscal deficits — that is, to make our unemployment problem even worse.

And I’m not sure the Obama administration gets it, either. The administration’s statements on Chinese currency policy seem pro forma, lacking any sense of urgency.

That needs to change. I don’t begrudge Mr. Obama the banquets and the photo ops; they’re part of his job. But behind the scenes he better be warning the Chinese that they’re playing a dangerous game.
Contrarian view, that an asset bubble is being created. After Mervyn King, here is another article:

Not all bubbles present a risk to the economy
By Frederic Mishkin

Published: November 9 2009 20:08 | Last updated: November 9 2009 20:08

There is increasing concern that we may be experiencing another round of asset-price bubbles that could pose great danger to the economy. Does this danger provide a case for the US Federal Reserve to exit from its zero-interest-rate policy sooner rather than later, as many commentators have suggested? The answer is no.

Are potential asset-price bubbles always dangerous? Asset-price bubbles can be separated into two categories. The first and dangerous category is one I call “a credit boom bubble”, in which exuberant expectations about economic prospects or structural changes in financial markets lead to a credit boom. The resulting increased demand for some assets raises their price and, in turn, encourages further lending against these assets, increasing demand, and hence their prices, even more, creating a positive feedback loop. This feedback loop involves increasing leverage, further easing of credit standards, then even higher leverage, and the cycle continues.

Eventually, the bubble bursts and asset prices collapse, leading to a reversal of the feedback loop. Loans go sour, the deleveraging begins, demand for the assets declines further and prices drop even more. The resulting loan losses and declines in asset prices erode the balance sheets at financial institutions, further diminishing credit and investment across a broad range of assets. The resulting deleveraging depresses business and household spending, which weakens economic activity and increases macroeconomic risk in credit markets. Indeed, this is what the recent crisis has been all about.

The second category of bubble, what I call the “pure irrational exuberance bubble”, is far less dangerous because it does not involve the cycle of leveraging against higher asset values. Without a credit boom, the bursting of the bubble does not cause the financial system to seize up and so does much less damage. For example, the bubble in technology stocks in the late 1990s was not fuelled by a feedback loop between bank lending and rising equity values; indeed, the bursting of the tech-stock bubble was not accompanied by a marked deterioration in bank balance sheets. This is one of the key reasons that the bursting of the bubble was followed by a relatively mild recession. Similarly, the bubble that burst in the stock market in 1987 did not put the financial system under great stress and the economy fared well in its aftermath.

Because the second category of bubble does not present the same dangers to the economy as a credit boom bubble, the case for tightening monetary policy to restrain a pure irrational exuberance bubble is much weaker. Asset-price bubbles of this type are hard to identify: after the fact is easy, but beforehand is not. (If policymakers were that smart, why aren’t they rich?) Tightening monetary policy to restrain a bubble that does not materialise will lead to much weaker economic growth than is warranted. Monetary policymakers, just like doctors, need to take a Hippocratic Oath to “do no harm”.

Nonetheless, if a bubble poses a sufficient danger to the economy as credit boom bubbles do, there might be a case for monetary policy to step in. However, there are also strong arguments against doing so, which is why there are active debates in academia and central banks about whether monetary policy should be used to restrain asset-price bubbles.

But if bubbles are a possibility now, does it look like they are of the dangerous, credit boom variety? At least in the US and Europe, the answer is clearly no. Our problem is not a credit boom, but that the deleveraging process has not fully ended. Credit markets are still tight and are presenting a serious drag on the economy.

Tightening monetary policy in the US or Europe to restrain a possible bubble makes no sense at the current juncture. The Fed decision to retain the language that the funds rate will be kept “exceptionally low” for an “extended period” makes sense given the tentativeness of the recovery, the enormous slack in the economy, current low inflation rates and stable inflation expectations. At this critical juncture, the Fed must not take its eye off the ball by focusing on possible asset-price bubbles that are not of the dangerous, credit boom variety.

The writer is a professor of finance and economics at the graduate school of business, Columbia University, a former member (governor) of the Fed board of governors and author of The Economics of Money, Banking, and Financial Markets, 9th edition (2009)
Hmmm....just what is really going on....too many views.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Image
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

It is abundantly clear that the leadership of the erstwhile G7 is floundering and flailing trying to find a way out of this ekhanomic morass. Luckily for them, one true visionary blessed with courage, rectitude and foresight has condescended to be among them.

His name? Sri Gordon Brown. And no, don't laugh. And kindly don't get me wrong here. Look at Sri Brown's achievements and record, as chancellor of the treasury before moving into 10 Down street, before arriving at hasty-nasty conclusions.

UK Government deficit now increasing at £3bn a week
The Government’s deficit is now increasing at a rate of almost £3 billion a week, it has emerged, in a blow to Gordon Brown.

Barely 24 hours after Mr Brown pledged to halve Britain’s record budget deficit within four years, official figures revealed that the Government is due to borrow even more this year than it forecast in the Budget.

In a further embarassment for the Prime Minister, the chief economist of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development said that the Fiscal Responsibility Bill unveiled in the Queen’s Speech this week was not ambitious enough to solve Britain’s fiscal problems.

......

George Osborne, the shadow chancellor, said: “Today is a defining moment in the debate about Britain's debt - the moment when we see that Gordon Brown has not just lost control of the public finances but lost the economic argument about the debt crisis.
Jai Hor.
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

IMF and World Bank have been saying US dollar as reserve currency is going to end.
Where did they say that? The market will decide, such as it is, what is the reserve currency. In any case, I doubt anybody claims that the USD's status as reserve currency will have a credible challenger anytime soon.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by ldev »

China Banks Fill Syndicated Loan Void as Western Banks Retreat

How to win friends and influence people and diversify from US Treasury bills and bonds.
.......and Bank of China underwrote $25.6 billion of syndicated loans in Asia- Pacific outside Japan this year, or 14.5 percent of the total, up from 4.9 percent a year earlier, data compiled by Bloomberg show. They’re providing capital as western banks from New York- based Citigroup Inc. to Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc in Edinburgh retrench after global financial institutions took $1.7 trillion of writedowns and losses since the start of 2007.......


.......The Banking Regulatory Commission told city banks last month to avoid the “blind” pursuit of size after domestic lending surged to a record 8.9 trillion yuan ($1.3 trillion) in the first 10 months of 2009 from 3.7 trillion in the same period a year earlier........


.......Offering credit to companies outside China is also a way for the nation to invest its $2.27 trillion of reserves without buying Treasuries. China’s holdings of U.S. government debt swelled to $798.9 billion in September from less than $100 billion in 2002, according to the Treasury Department......


......Deposits at ICBC, Bank of China, China Construction Bank Corp. and Bank of Communications Co., China’s four largest publicly-traded banks, grew by 4.3 trillion yuan to 26.2 trillion yuan in the first half of 2009, according to Bloomberg data. They totaled 18 trillion yuan in June 2007......

........Chinese households’ savings as a percentage of income rose to 37.5 percent last year from 27.5 percent in 2000, according to Stephen Roach, chairman of Morgan Stanley Asia Ltd. in Hong Kong. The rate of U.S. household savings was 3.3 percent in September, the Commerce Department said Oct. 30....


......“Borrowers see these huge hoards of cash available at relatively decent prices and it makes sense to knock on their doors,” said Amit Khattar, Singapore-based head of non-Japan Asia loan syndication at Credit Suisse Group AG, Switzerland’s largest bank. “But that doesn’t mean the doors open for everybody, at least not yet.”.....
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by SwamyG »

Singha wrote:it had to happen and will cascade.....Univ of california to raise UG fees by 32% next fall.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/educa ... ml?_r=1&hp
LoL, except 2-3 or three, nobody else is wearing pants. Sorry could not help from noticing this important thing :-)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Neshant »

i notice just before India bought the 200 tons of gold from the IMF, the price shot up from 950 to 1050.

This can only mean that IMF insiders were passing on the information of India's intended purchase to certain others to make bets ahead of time on the gold futures market.

Nice scam. Offer gold for sale. When you get a large buyer, rush out and place a bet that the price of gold will rise, sell the gold to the buyer, and reap dividends on that bet.

I also notice Russia announced that week itself that it would sell 20 tons of gold. I think it was a ploy to help hold down the spot price of gold while India made its purchase and do some damage (albeit futile) to the insider's bets.

20 tons : 200 tons which is exactly a 1:10 ratio - just what's needed to hold down prices on a sell rumour. Coincidence?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Prem »

The price of Gold is still going up. India most probabaly has already made couple of hundreds of millions from the Gold purchase.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Neshant »

I know. But the fact remains gold prices jumped 100 dollars just before India made its purchase. I don't trust international bankers. In future, purchases should be made via multiple sources in the private sector. Buy a contract and then take delivery.

Buying it through some crooked organization like the IMF or some foreign bank is an invitation to them to front run the market.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Buying it through some crooked organization like the IMF or some foreign bank is an invitation to them to front run the market.
As long as GoI takes delivery i.e. physical possesion of said bullion, I can live with IMF crooks placing bets this way or that.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Satya_anveshi »

Are bhai log....real inside information is the *seriousness* of intent to buy. So, the ultimate inside information was with Indians:) We could easily, even at the last minute, said well...the price isn't good for us and screwed the market and yet take advantage.

There may have been a market manipulation but nothing stopped Indians from taking advantage of it too. If we did not do it, well what can I say?

But India buying gold at that price and in that much quantity is sure to set baseline for a long time to come. It may have indirectly, in not so subtle way, made a lot of people in India richer with some level of permanance (reduced volatility).
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Neshant »

I don't have any clue how one would approach the IMF to make a purchase. But I'm sure they are not ignorant. If I was the IMF, I'd ask for a deposit up front if you want to make a purchase to demonstrate your seriousness of making a purchase.

There are so many ways the system can be gamed. As we speak there are foreign companies trying to sell India their brokerage technology that links Indian brokers to foreign stock markets. How do we know they are not intercepting the information along the way and using the buy/sell orders to their advantage. I.e. buying up a certain stock ahead of a major Indian purchase, selling it as a major sell order comes in?

When it comes to trading your hard earned money for paper games, its best to be wary. There is a reason paper promises aka money was invented and that is to more easily separate people from the fruits of their labor.

Allowing Goldman sachs to take a 10% stake in the national stock market has got to go down as one of the stupidest things ever done. These guys main source of revenue is gaming the system and subtracting not adding value from their own country. Lord knows what scams they pull in foreign countries.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Time Lapse Unemployment Visualization

Short quick video on the geography of the recession.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Thread regulars, kindly see this here:

BRF Hyd meet in late Dec

Would be fun to meet up sometime. Let me know.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Its going from bad to worse. AM telling ya, unemployment will be precisely what breaks this status quo.

Out of work, money and patience
(11-17) 04:00 PST Lansing, Mich. -- One frustrated client hurled a piece of concrete through the window of a welfare agency. Another threw her car keys at a welfare worker before being escorted away. At one point, a woman on public assistance even took a swing at a worker.

As Michigan struggles with the highest-in-the-nation jobless rate, state workers who deal with unemployment, welfare and other aid programs say they have never been so overwhelmed - or so worried about their safety. Some clients have begun taking their anger out on the very people who are offering help. And caseworkers are seeking extra protection.

"We are seeing it more and more as a dangerous situation," said Amy Harrison, a caseworker who used to work for the state prison system, where she says she never felt as insecure as she does now.

More than 15 percent of Michigan workers do not have a job. The dismal economy has also caused record demand for food stamps and public health care, forcing impoverished clients to wait hours for help in crowded office buildings. To make matters worse, a troublesome new computer system is also causing delays.

It's a recipe for conflict - or worse.
Read it all.

It will get worse because state and local gubmints are in deep doodoo. They *have to* layoff massively and slash ruthlessly into current entitlement programs (some of the pension schemes for police and fire departments are mighty generous, for instance) sometime within the next 12 months - starting of course with California. And with the public sector literally the hirer of last resort, that blow can be crushing.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Neshant »

As interest rates fall back near zero, there aren't many happy returns

Yet all that saving isn't exactly paying off. Personal income from interest hit $1.26 trillion in 2007, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis. This year, that number is on track to fall by $40 billion - even though people are saving more.

"Savers are getting killed by these low rates," banking analyst Bert Ely said. "They're getting next to nothing."

"It takes money out of the pockets of senior citizens and anyone living on a fixed income and gives it to borrowers, many of whom are overly indebted," McBride said. "It's as if Grandma stuffed an envelope full of cash, walked down the street and gave it to the guy with two new cars, a big-screen TV and who's behind on his mortgage."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/0911 ... ttom_rates
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

The deflation camp is finding ever more corroborative evidence in its favor. Here, our resident alarmist Sri Ambrose Evans prichard is on a roll again.

His columns are always a pleasure to read meshing a sense of historical perspective to current ekhanomics, even if often times, the subject matter is decidedly gloomy.

Core deflation in the US continues to gather pace
Core inflation for factory goods in the US fell to minus 0.6pc in October from a year earlier, edging the country closer towards Japanese-style deflation despite massive monetary stimulus.
Unemployment has reached 10.2pc and the average working week has fallen to a record low of 33.0 hours, creating powerful deflation headwinds.

Gabriel Stein from Lombard Street Research said the US “output gap” is currently at 6.2pc of GDP. The last time it was near this level – in 1982 – producer price inflation fell by 300 basis points over the next year. A repeat today would cause it to spiral to dangerous levels below minus 3pc.

While the Fed appears split over its exit strategy, even arch-hawk Richard Fisher of the Dallas Fed said the sheer scale of excess plant will curb prices and wages for a long time. Capacity use in manufacturing is near a post-war low of 67.6pc.

Mr Fisher said the “peak impact” of the Obama fiscal blitz has already come and gone. “Several recent sources of strength are likely to wane as we head into next year. Cash-for-clunkers and the first-time-homebuyer tax credit have both shifted demand forward, increasing sales today at the expense of sales tomorrow. Neither of these programmes can be repeated with any real hope of achieving anywhere near the same effect. The more demand you steal from the future, the less future demand there is for you to steal,” he said.
Re the bolded part, one-time pony-tricks has been all the rage of late, I notice. Can-kicking raised to art-level. Witness how Calif kicked the budgetary cuts can down the road a few months ago by, get this, borrowing from state lottery revenues of the next year among other tricks to seal the recurring budget hole for this year. And what'll do next year, who knows?

Meanwhile, wahan, deflation spectre grips Japan...

Link
The Bank of Japan faces mounting pressure to loosen its policy as deflation tightens its grip on the nation's economy, even as some other central banks begin to roll back stimulus steps amid signs of economic recovery.

The Japanese central bank on Friday kept rates unchanged and upgraded its assessment of the economy, citing rising exports and industrial output. The bank, which has stuck with super-easy monetary policy for more than a decade, has hoped to follow other central banks in looking at ways to tighten policy. Instead, Japan's government and economists are urging it to adopt new easing steps, such as purchasing long-term government bonds.

The calls grew louder Friday after the government declared that the nation's economy was in deflation -- a decline in the general level of prices for goods and services -- for the first time since 2006. That year, policy makers concluded the nation had finally shaken off the deflation that had hindered its economy since the late 1990s. The heightened pressure for easing also follows a spate of recent data showing accelerating price declines in broad parts of the economy.

"Deflation is getting very severe," said financial services minister Shizuka Kamei. "We are closely watching what the BOJ can do in this environment."

During the third quarter, the domestic demand deflator -- a measure of changes in prices of goods and services except for exports and imports -- fell 2.6%, its fastest pace since 1958.

"It's very important for the BOJ to show the market it has the will to conquer deflation, both through action and through words," Mr. Shirakawa, of Credit Suisse, said. "Otherwise, expectations for deflation will only get worse."
Re the bolded part, tell me what policy response is it that Japan hasn't tried since 1990? They tried everything top-down they could find, and then some, and so far nothing has worked.

Name one emerged khanomy that doesn't have overcapacity issues. Any one. And there you see why the deflation imperative is coming from. The excess capacity has to be extinguised and the productive capital thus freed redeployed into happier sectors, in theory. In practice, the extinguishing creates an output gap that can be really ugly in the short run. The destruction precedes the creation in 'creative destruction' (Josef Schumpeter, 1946?) and debt-deflation is destruction on steriods - destruction of overcapacity, of overleveraged positions, of insolvent financial institutions and of debt on burdened households. And it freezes elite nuts in societies everywhere because of real wealth destruction and revolution possibilities.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Muppalla »

Hari Seldon wrote:Thread regulars, kindly see this here:

BRF Hyd meet in late Dec

Would be fun to meet up sometime. Let me know.
Hari,

I am making a very very short visit to Hyd. I will be coming there next Thursday and returning back on 3rd December. There is a weekend in between and if there is a possiblity of a quick meet then I will try my level best to meet the jingos.

Sorry for the OT here.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Muppalla »

Hari Seldon wrote: It will get worse because state and local gubmints are in deep doodoo. They *have to* layoff massively and slash ruthlessly into current entitlement programs (some of the pension schemes for police and fire departments are mighty generous, for instance) sometime within the next 12 months - starting of course with California. And with the public sector literally the hirer of last resort, that blow can be crushing.
It is like a deserted landscape in massa land if you travel thru midwest. A substantial number of strip malls are closed. Most of the small towns are lke dead town. People living is big cites like NY and DC are in okay land but otherwise unemployment and small biz is in serious condition.

As long as China surives there is no revival of US. In reality there no actual economic revival since the DotCom bust. Everything that is happening is just fake and the people here realize it too. There will be open calls for protectionism and it is imminent in the near future that we will start seeing the growth of protectionism.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Muppala garu,

Would very much like to meet with you. Could you pls drop me an email?

Would be nice if milindc can join in also. A quick 3 person beer-biryani meet, why not?

Hi Milindc, if you are reading this, pls let me know what you think.

HS
Last edited by Hari Seldon on 22 Nov 2009 17:49, edited 1 time in total.
Muppalla
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Muppalla »

hari,

I have sent the email to you. If you receive the email, you can delete the id from here.
milindc
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by milindc »

Hari Seldon wrote:Muppala garu,

Would very much like to meet with you. Could you pls drop me an email at vsudhir dot brf at gmail?

Would be nice if milindc can join in also. A quick 3 person beer-biryani meet, why not?

Hi Milindc, if you are reading this, pls let me know what you think.

HS
The only day I can make is Friday nite (27th). Need to travel to Pune for a cousin's wedding on weekend. I don't know about Muppala garu's jetlag since he is arriving on Thursday. :D
Will send a mail to you.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Muppalla, you hv mail. Milindc, awaiting your email.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Muppalla »

Hari and milindc,
I have already told my family members to leave me alone for Friday night. I will make it unless some drastic changes happen. In anycase I have Hari's email and mobile number. I will call on Thursday regarding location etc.

This is the last post on this here and let us take it over to email. Hope to see you guys.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Demand for a particular product category (other than gold) that has spiked of late?
Smith & Wesson, the famed American gunmaker once owned by Tomkins, the British conglomerate, expects to nearly double its annual sales in the next three to five years as demand for its firearms soars in the recession. It is not alone.

Smith & Wesson is expecting sales to rise by 30 per cent to $102 million (£61 million) in the first quarter of the next financial year, after growing by more than 13 per cent this year to $335 million.
...
In September, gun sales rose 12.4 percent, or more than 100,000 new firearms per month. In 2009, gun sales are expected to reach 13.5 million, compared to 12.7 million in the preceding year, FBI monthly estimates said."

"Basically we have a perfect storm in the firearm industry," said Elliott. "We have the most anti-gun president ever in the United States, Obama. And we have a recession going on right now. During economic crises, you know crime goes up."
link
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

[youtube]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ZXEShSIFks&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ZXEShSIFks&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/youtube]

OMG OMG OMG

Watch the fifth and sixth minutes!!!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

MUST WATCH!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by svinayak »

prad wrote:
all in all, the whole situation is ripe for a lot of true change in global affairs.
2012
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Neshant »

Just a theory but i wonder if obama is in china to give that country something behind the scenes as financial compensation for devaluing the dollar.

The rest of the suckers (like India) who are holding dollars then end up bearing the brunt of the devaluation.

I am 100% convinced that the US debt won't be worked off as is prescribed by the IMF to developing countries in debt. Rather it will be scammed off. Its only a question of who will be made to hold the bag.
Locked