Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

John · Post by **John** » 20 Nov 2009 06:17

negi wrote: Yes in fact above statement is true for any weapons platform which you wish to substitute in place of the underlined entity. , what gives ?

Well my point was with a defensive system is that you need to keep pace with technology or it will be rendered useless(as the french found out with Maginot line or Iraqi's air defense network during persian gulf). An weapon system like rifle it depends on who is using it and how skilled they are, more so than the weapon itself.

negi wrote:Platforms like HARPY are a threat to all sorts of ADS assets whether it be Rajendra or even Swordfish .

Acive or IR guided missile complex can still operate even the main FCR radar is taken out by using the secondary or search radar for the target designation and mid course guidance. Introduce network capabilities and it will be very hard to counter.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Nov 2009 07:04

Introduce network capabilities and it will be very hard to counter.

which are already in place.

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Nov 2009 07:41

negi wrote:...

tsarkar wrote: Yes the targeted aircraft won't be able to cue the ARM missile but it will give itself away to HARPY like system, IIRC PRC also has plenty of. Also the enemy aircraft can simply fly out of Akash's engagement window, Israeli pilots exploited the range weakness of SA-6 in Yom Kippur conflict.
Platforms like HARPY are a threat to all sorts of ADS assets whether it be Rajendra or even Swordfish . HARPY does not need a radar to be in tracking mode to target it , it can very well identify and engage any volume search or a surveillance radar . The main question is why do you assume that HARPY won't get detected and shot down even before it locks on to Rajendra ? Btw in my scenario I can visualize Tunguska M1's 30mm shells ripping apart a HARPY even before it maneuvers in for a kill.

In the 1991 Gulf War, the Allied forces tricked the Iraqi air defenses by first launching the BQM-74 Drones. As soon as the Iraqis turned on their radars to engage them, the Allies SEAD planes, which were following the drones, armed with AGM-88 HARMs launched at them. This is how the Iraqi AD was taken out on the first day itself. So SEAD tactics are not about one aircraft wandering around with HARMs.

In a Group mode, Akash SAM system is more survivable from SEAD activities since HARM's 106 km operational range is within the Group's engagement range. Akash Group's 3-D CAR (150km range) is the only one that needs to be turned on while the individual Akash batteries could be anywhere in a silent mode. If the SEAD aircraft approaches closer to launch HARM (within 106km) at the 3D CAR, it could be within range of one of the Akash batteries. Or the Akash Group could lure the SEAD aircraft closer still by turning on a Battery surveillance radar (BLR) of the furthermost battery (making sure the is range greater than 106km) while the closest battery stays silent and waits for the right moment.

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Nov 2009 07:54

John wrote: Well my point was with a defensive system is that you need to keep pace with technology or it will be rendered useless(or Iraqi's air defense network during persian gulf).

Keeping pace with technology is not synonymous with latest==greatest ; whether a platform is obsolete or not cannot be judged by how old its working principles are but keeping in mind its effectiveness in a hostile environment and this involves taking into consideration potential adversary's arsenal. In the present context Rajendra is still an unknown commodity as far as the west or any other country is concerned this assumes great significance specially when defeating an ADS becomes easy when one knows beforehand the innards of the platform which is the case with most of the US SEAD missions in Iraq or anywhere else on the globe for US has been able to get its hands on a substantial RU origin ADS systems .

John wrote: Acive or IR guided missile complex can still operate even the main FCR radar is taken out by using the secondary or search radar for the target designation and mid course guidance. Introduce network capabilities and it will be very hard to counter.

Why is that this missile battery in question is so lucky to have a VSR or even a surveillance radar in the vicinity; and what are the odds against one of these being Rajendra itself ?

Btw FC Radar is more than just a Radar unless the so called surveillance or VSR were built to to serve as FCRs for the given Missile launcher one cannot simply issue commands to launch and vector a missile on demand.

The merits of Aakash need to be appreciated/criticized keeping in mind the scope and its operational envelope ; no one denies that command guidance has its own share of handicaps but again the demerits diminish with engagement range.Conversely one can argue and question the utility of employing a RF seeker on a missile which will engage a target within 10-20 kms (what sort of range does one envisage for the onboard seeker ? how does one weigh the costs of the payload vs its effectiveness ?) , and the FCR for fire and forget missiles don't shut down after firing the round they still have to operate in TWS mode to ensure if target has been eliminated and continue searching for new ones, so the Radar as such remains vulnerable to the HARM/HARPY type platforms.

--fixed quotes

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Nov 2009 08:34

moreover akaash missile need not be stationed close to rajendra radar say at 20-25km away and enemy aircraft flying right above the SAM, while radar is 20-25km away

I think thats the usual way SAM traps are laid out. the radar will be in center of bubble but SAM launchers along the edges to minimize reaction time of enemy. the 3D car will give advance warning for akash TELs to 'warm up' so they will be hot on the rails and the 15 secs can be shaved to lesser.

to protect the vital 3D car , perhaps a co-located aerostat radar and some spyder/tunguska elements would be useful to shoot down any 'leakers', sead drones and provide better coverage against low flying cruise missiles.

PLAAF has obtained quantities of KH31P and KH59. its quite important to test countermeasures against both
these systems (we also have both)...best defence is offensive fighter sweeps backed by phalcons and damaging attacks on enemy airbases using missiles and planes...SAMs should be 2nd line defence only.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 20 Nov 2009 17:19

srai wrote:In the 1991 Gulf War, the Allied forces tricked the Iraqi air defenses by first launching the BQM-74 Drones. As soon as the Iraqis turned on their radars to engage them, the Allies SEAD planes, which were following the drones, armed with AGM-88 HARMs launched at them. This is how the Iraqi AD was taken out on the first day itself. So SEAD tactics are not about one aircraft wandering around with HARMs.

actually at that time those AD system radar could target only one enemy at a time,
so if there 5-6 fighters armed with 20-24 HARM in the sky against one FCR which can take out only one target at a time .so it becomes obvious that who is at disadvantage

it is claimed that 2000 HARM were fired by NATO aircrafts.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Nov 2009 18:54

Assume I have an airfield to defend.
My first defence would be AWACS directed fighter sweeps at ranges 500 km from base using Su-30
Next would be AWACS directed combat air patrol at ranges greater than 100 km from base using LCA
Next would be ADGE directed medium range SAMs (Pechora/Barak-8)
Next would be ADGE directed short range SAMs (Osa/Spyder/Akash)
Point defence would be via Igla or L-70

To defend Rohini/Rajendra against Harpy's, there can always be L-70 + Flycatcher nearby using PFFC http://www.ofbindia.gov.in/products/dat ... /mc/14.htm

Flycatcher is the best in its class and in production for many years. Some news here http://www.thalesgroup.com/Press_Releas ... ce_System/

MANPADS work quite well against UAV's http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6 ... n31138458/
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/miss ... ueada.html "The primary aerial threats that must be countered by Avenger systems are unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs)"

Assuming Fiza'ya procures Harpy. Harpy or Falco will never operate together with F-16s. Because Harpy/Falco in vicinity of F-16 represent mid air collision hazards. And the F-16 wake turbulance will any render any nearby Harpy/Falco out of control.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Nov 2009 19:17

Proof Akash is only command guided and not SARH http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/121 ... C03909.JPG

There is no SARH equipment onboard the missile, only radio proximity fuse (RPF) and receiver antenna.

Edited - looks like incorrect picture. I'll search for the correct one and repost.

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Nov 2009 21:37

tsarkar wrote:Proof Akash is only command guided and not SARH http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/121 ... C03909.JPG

There is no SARH equipment onboard the missile, only radio proximity fuse (RPF) and receiver antenna.

Edited - looks like incorrect picture. I'll search for the correct one and repost.

Here's a bigger picture of Akash cutaway:

http://img25.imageshack.us/i/akashgs6.jpg/

It seems the front portion is not being used for anything at this moment. Maybe a SARH is being planned for Mk.II version ... or why keep that area just "empty"? I think it was a way to get Akash Mk.I out right away as the technology challenge for an indigenous SARH was probably too great. But now with Barak-8 and experience with Astra (plus parts available from EU and Russia) it would be possible to integrate a SARH.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Nov 2009 23:10

PLAAF has obtained quantities of KH31P and KH59.

How about an advanced version of Trophy/Arena missile shield + regular ECM systems.

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 22 Nov 2009 14:10

Tamil news channel says that A-2 will be tested tommorrow. It will be the first night launch for it.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 22 Nov 2009 15:17

This may have been discussed before, but I am posting some interesting snippets (more as a reference than anything else, since a new series of tests seem to be in the offing) from the latest MOD annual report.

The range
for Agni-II is more than 2000 km. The salient features of the test firings are mobile launch capability, multi-staging, state-of-the-art control and guidance, reentry technology and sophisticated on-board packages including advanced communication. Agni–II has also been inducted in to Services.

Agni-III Missile: Agni-III is a long-range missile with a capability to launch from rail mobile launcher. It has a capacity to carry 1500 kg warhead. Agni-III has been successfully test fired on May 7, 2008.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 22 Nov 2009 15:39

srai wrote: It seems the front portion is not being used for anything at this moment. Maybe a SARH is being planned for Mk.II version ... or why keep that area just "empty"? I think it was a way to get Akash Mk.I out right away as the technology challenge for an indigenous SARH was probably too great. But now with Barak-8 and experience with Astra (plus parts available from EU and Russia) it would be possible to integrate a SARH.

Immediately after the intial order of Akash Mk.I was placed, Dr. Prahlada, DRDO, mentioned about the Mk.2 as, if and only if service wanted that way. But the option exists. And if indeed service want that way, it will be from the next order, as per him.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 22 Nov 2009 17:14

Nuke-capable Agni-II to be tested during night
http://www.ptinews.com/news/388585_Nuke ... ring-night

Balasore (Orissa), Nov 22 (PTI) India is likely to test its nuclear capable Agni-II Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM) for the first time during night, defence officials said here today.

The trial is expected to be conducted from the Wheelers Island off Orissa coast tomorrow, they said.

"Range integration work in Integrated Test Range (ITR) for the proposed trial has been completed and if final check-up in the sub-system of the missile is found flawless, the mission will be taken up tomorrow," the officials said.

A special 'strategic forces team' raised by the Army would conduct the trial with necessary logistic support by various ITR laboratories and Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) scientists.

The indigenously built weapon is a two-stage solid propelled ballistic missile and has a weight of 17 tonnes and length of 20 metres.

Interesting time to test.. MMS in US..

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 23 Nov 2009 10:01

Night launch for N-capable Agni-II today
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 258841.cms

Can you guess what would be the common in all Mr. Pandit's report related to missile ?

"Pakistan, with the active help of China and North Korea, has surged ahead of India in the missile arena. ...... China is in a different league altogether, brandishing as it does ICBMs (intercontinental ballistic missiles) like Dong Feng-31A (11,200-km range) and SLBMs (submarine-launched ballistic missiles) like JL-2 (7,200-km range). "

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 23 Nov 2009 18:55

As the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni_missile_system

The missile have a range of about 8000km and the first test flight is unsucessfully done on 16 October 2009.

Did I miss this news?? and reference pages are taken offline ...

Test failure is a bad news but bigger good news is that we are developing ICBM

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Nov 2009 19:05

its typO.. the ref links 15,16 is also outdated.. and it could be either 3K or 5K, that numbers appears like digital 8.

sounds like MIRV is up in the air with chaiwaalas with ddm-biskoots.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 23 Nov 2009 19:15

SaiK wrote:its typO.. the ref links 15,16 is also outdated.. and it could be either 3K or 5K, that numbers appears like digital 8.

It could be a typO at one place but not at two places (ref. pages for Oct, 2009 are not that old) ....anyways I am happy and satisfied... we may project ourselfs as stupid but we are not less smarter then others

SaiK wrote:sounds like MIRV is up in the air with chaiwaalas with ddm-biskoots.

another good news ... now I understand why chincom was suddenly worried and interested in Agni

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 23 Nov 2009 20:28

Flash news says that A-2 tested successfully.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Nov 2009 21:01

http://beta.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scien ... epage=true

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Nov 2009 21:57

well about time we pulled our socks up on it. congrats to all involved.

ISRO fired off a PSLV during a rainstorm. likewise we must test in difficult conditions because in the ultimate hour of need, there is no room to wait for better conditions.

prasadha · Post by **prasadha** » 23 Nov 2009 21:57

Hi

This link claims that the test failed.

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/n-capabl ... _fails.php

Sorry to be the one to bring bad news.

Pras

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 23 Nov 2009 21:59

We still do not know whether failure reports are rumors or for real. If it is for real, stringent action must be taken against those responsible. Continued failure can be used as an excuse to give up these programs altogether.. Further, the media must be muzzled on these matters...

ashkrishna · Post by **ashkrishna** » 23 Nov 2009 22:29

what happened? Failure indicates that we are in huge trouble..

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 23 Nov 2009 22:35

one probably has to wait for a reliable source. In these matters, The Hindu is usually reliable. The other issue could be that very accurate splashdowns may be desired, but actual splashdown may not be of that kind. All other reports other tha NDTV one say success/ smoot launch/ are silent.

One issue is quality control. Besides that, sabotage by subverted workers is something to watch out for. Strict surveillance must be maintained on all personnel involved.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 23 Nov 2009 22:44

no news of failure in Hindu

Agni II missile fired first time after sunset

but no mention of success is worrying...

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 23 Nov 2009 22:47

By the Hindu, I mean the report in the newspaper rather than the updates... we will have to wait.. last time a similar thing happened...some Hemant Rout cropped up claiming failure...and then the story was repeated again and agan in ToI in some form or the other like "not fully successful", "not all parameters met", etc...

L Ram · Post by **L Ram** » 23 Nov 2009 22:49

N-capable Agni II test firing at night fails
Nitin Gokhale, Monday November 23, 2009, New Delhi
The first night test firing of India's 2000 km plus range nuclear capable ballistic missile, Agni-II from the Wheeler's Island 10 km from Balasore inside the Bay of Bengal has failed.

It is for the first time that, the Strategic Forces Command personnel along with scientists from Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) were conducting this trial during night.

Sources have told NDTV that the test failed to meet many parametres after it was fired off at 1950 hours on Monday night.

According to a defence source, "The indigenously developed surface-to-surface missile was test fired from a rail mobile launcher from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) launch pad - 4."

The two-stage solid propelled missile has a launch weight of 17 tonnes and approximately 20 meters in height. It can carry a pay load of one tonne over 2000 km.

who are the insider sourses and what are their motives behind leaking such matters?? or else it is the sensationalism of the DDM. at the cost of national intrests??

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 23 Nov 2009 23:00

Let us wait for some more time before calling the media names.

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 23 Nov 2009 23:02

The test was successful.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-test-f ... ml?from=tn

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 23 Nov 2009 23:45

Launch looks good

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Nuke-capa ... 79440.aspx

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 23 Nov 2009 23:55

From the Pioneer:

http://www.dailypioneer.com/217933/Agni ... night.html

"The DRDO scientists would review the results and performance of the missile and users in the next few days. It would enable the scientists and the Army to learn appropriate lessons and cut out the mistakes in the next launch."

From TNN:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 262395.cms

It seems another technical glitch caused erratic behaviour before 2nd stage separation.

From Deccan Herald:

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/376 ... ssile.html

"If defence sources are to be believed, the main aim behind the post-sunset test-firing of the Agni II missile was to gauge its accuracy during night time"

This lends itself to the position that there is an accuracy problem which needs to be identified and addressed.

This time there is no obfustication. The Pioneer report seems to point to mistakes being made.

The good thing is that sooner or later they will get it right.

I have been told by somebody I consider reliable that Agni-2 is not as robust or as ruggedized as the Agni-3.

However, one thing should be noted - if the army was so lacking in confidence in the missile itself, why would it schedule a difficult night test ?

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 24 Nov 2009 00:03

Bad news ... just NDTV confirmed the test is failed.

swapna · Post by **swapna** » 24 Nov 2009 00:10

Now agni-2 has repeatedly failed 3 tests .

karthik · Post by **karthik** » 24 Nov 2009 00:16

This is the worst news i have heard so far!! The back bone of our delivery system was always suspicious and looking in view with our N-tests which also under performed, my long suspected fear seems to be coming true. We are sitting ducks!

Its the mindset that scares me, they get into denial mood and i really dont know if that means they will give their life to sort out the problem asap or sweep these dangerous mistakes casually under the carpet while dismissing it or blame it on the launch crew and go on in their usually snails pace!

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 24 Nov 2009 00:21

SanjibGhosh wrote:Bad news ... just NDTV confirmed the test is failed.

here is the link ...

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/n-capabl ... _fails.php

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 24 Nov 2009 00:34

WTH? If we cant even perfect A2, can we even dream about integrating ICBMs???????

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 24 Nov 2009 00:34

Another confirmation of failure from TOI Agni-II missile fails to clear night trial

The liftoff and the first stage separation was smooth. But it faltered just before the second stage separation and behaved erratically, deviating from its coordinated path. Further analysis is on to ascertain the cause,’’

said a source.

Ankit

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Nov 2009 00:41

That's it!!!
The Agni-2 has failed, we need to test the Agni 5 and the surya to correct it.
We also need to test the TNs.

yalgaar.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 24 Nov 2009 00:47

OT warning:

Small request to all, please do not make critical posts of the recent launch of AGNI II missile without reading the details. The details of the test will come out in the next few days. Feel free to dissect the failures (technology & personnel) of all involved parties including the DRDO, Army, GoI etc only after analysing the reasons for the less than perfect test launch. Any commentary now only adds to the angst and does not serve any purpose other than being a whine or rant. TIA to all fellow rakshaks.