India-US News and Discussion

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 25 Nov 2009 05:07

Reprocessing pact: PM says need to dot Is, cross some Ts

...
It was expected that a political push from both Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and US President Barack Obama would clear the way for the two delegations to reach an agreed text. But sources said India felt that the commitments being put on the agreement did not accurately mirror those in the 123 agreement which was the bottomline for the Indian delegation led by senior Department of Atomic Energy official R B Grover.
...
...
It is learnt that the US side led by State Department’s expert on nuclear policy Richard Stratford wanted to include more reporting and certification requirements mandated by the US Atomic Energy Act. This proved to be intractable as both sides struggled to find the text and language that could serve each other’s purpose.

With the US finally agreeing to stick by the template of commitments in the 123 agreement, sources said an understanding could be reached in one more meeting. There was, however, some disappointment in the Indian camp because the PM was keen to conclude the remaining steps of the nuclear deal during this visit.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 25 Nov 2009 05:29

Manny,
Repulican or Democratic, US International Policy has been consis since 1970. Reagan funded and helped the Taliban.
Given the economic recession, US even under republicans would have made such statements
Bush was a big supporter of the Joshua project. That created it's own set of problems

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 25 Nov 2009 05:53

The state dinner menu is almost completely vegetarian. The only exception is an alternative choice of curry prawns for the main entree.

Potato and Eggplant Salad
White House argula with onion seed vinaigrette
Wine: 2008 Sauvignon Blanc, Modus Oprendi, Napa Valley, California

Red lentil soup with fresh cheese
Wine: 2008 Riesling Brooks "Ara" Willamette Valley, Oregon

Roasted Potato Dumplings with tomato chutney
Chick peas and okra
or
Green curry prawns
Carmelized salsify with smoked collard greens and coconut aged basmati
Wine: 2007 Granache, Beckman Vineyards, Santa Ynez, California

Pumpkin Pie tart
Pear tatin
Whipped cream and caramel sauce
Wine: Sparkling Chardonnay, Thibaut Janisson Brut, Monticello, Virginia

Petots Fours and Coffee
Cashew Brittle
Pecan Pralines
Passion Fruit and Vanilla Gelees
Chocolate dipped fruit

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 25 Nov 2009 05:56

Manny wrote:I'd rather have the US President not attend the diwali function and not host the Indian PM to doing those things while empowering despotic regimes that are mortal enemies of India.

Are you already forgetting the massive support provided by Bush to Gola?
Are you already forgetting how Pakisatan was rescued from imminent financial collapse by Bush?
Are you already forgetting how Bush turned a blind eye to Pakisatan encouraging L-e-T training camps in its territory while pretending to fight the "War on Terra"?
Are you already forgetting how Bush authorized the Kunduz airlift?

Geeez.

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 25 Nov 2009 05:56

MMS is a vegitarian

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 25 Nov 2009 06:00

Suraj,

I think I addressed the significance of the state dinner WRT India as my 2nd point. You are correct it has little impact other than fooling the gulible that Ombaba gives arat's a$$ about India.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 Nov 2009 06:07

>>Personally I would hope our press don't cover the dinner much.
Well if BRFites are covering it so much, wouldn't the press cover it little more?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 25 Nov 2009 06:30

SwamyG wrote:>>Personally I would hope our press don't cover the dinner much.
Well if BRFites are covering it so much, wouldn't the press cover it little more?

Hopefully not the same folks who grumbled about the statement sometime ago that Indians are prone to flattery

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 25 Nov 2009 07:11

State Dinner being livecast on CNN right now.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 25 Nov 2009 07:12

I didn't like this article. Earlier, Walt also compared the Indian lobby to Israeli lobby (He is not a fan of Israeli lobby.)

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/200 ... ard_to_get

This FP article is better.

http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2 ... with_india

I hope these haven't been posted before.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 25 Nov 2009 07:20

You can watch it here LIVE Online

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/2 ... 68922.html

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 Nov 2009 07:31

The twisted smile made me go and search my posts - I remember using the word 'flattery' recently.

Both the supporters & detractors will scan this event to pick all points that favor their school of thought. Our likes and dislikes causes us to become emotional.

When it comes to Indo-US relationships, we can categorize BRFites into the following categories:
1. Who consider Unkil as a great friend/benefactor/partner of Desh's growth.
2. Who consider Unkil as a detractor of Desh's growth.
3. Have no opinion on the relationship.

Once we consider the above categories, the next question would be is Unkil a benefactor or a detractor at a systemic level or Administrative level. By Administrative level, I mean based on an particular Administration - channeled by their ideologies and circumstances. Unkil being a younger civilization or Empire still has lots of systemic level of thinking. I think an older civilization or Empire would be more mellowed and would work things out - kind of live and let live.

Also domestic and foreign policies stemming from party ideologies have a big role to play too.

So anybody running around in BRF crying Obama is the greatest or evilest guy are just riling up others or naive themselves.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Nov 2009 08:06

The body language between the two is not that good - to me at least. Something is amiss. May be Obama has not got over his China trip and keeps mentioning "China" by mistake? Slip of the ..........

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Nov 2009 08:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfY1ISdABSw

Seeing is believing + Solid scientific proof

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 25 Nov 2009 08:56

Acharya wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfY1ISdABSw

Seeing is believing + Solid scientific proof

Acharya ...

American Renaissance (abbreviated AR or AmRen) is a monthly racialist magazine published by the New Century Foundation.[1] The magazine's founder Jared Taylor has been called a white separatist by the Southern Poverty Law Center

Are we to believe the crap coming out of some redneck magazine ???

source

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Nov 2009 09:00

AnimeshP wrote:
Acharya ...
American Renaissance (abbreviated AR or AmRen) is a monthly racialist magazine published by the New Century Foundation.[1] The magazine's founder Jared Taylor has been called a white separatist by the Southern Poverty Law Center
Are we to believe the crap coming out of some redneck magazine ???

Take it easy. We need to have a similar "scientific" study to refute it. It is for awareness purpose.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 25 Nov 2009 09:06

Acharya,
The comments below the video are classic. The Chinese believe that they are the new whites. I love it.
Indians should not fall for this crap by becoming defensive. Jsut sit back and enjoy the movie

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Nov 2009 09:08

Jarita wrote:Acharya,
The comments below the video are classic. The Chinese believe that they are the new whites. I love it.
Indians should not fall for this crap by becoming defensive. Jsut sit back and enjoy the movie

There is slow racist change they are working worldwide to make Chinese rich and the new whites.
If Indians SDRE and dark become rich sooner the entire racist foundation will fall flat.

The genetic link to the dark people has been proved. check this http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... 849&st=300

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 25 Nov 2009 09:11

Acharya,
This is the new Aryan Dravidian theory. Same underlying drivers

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 25 Nov 2009 09:23

NRao wrote:The body language between the two is not that good - to me at least. Something is amiss. May be Obama has not got over his China trip and keeps mentioning "China" by mistake? Slip of the ..........

I sensed that too. Manmohan was planning to raise some hard questions regarding Af-Pak situation and China. Perhaps that didn't go down too well. Although this is pure speculation onlee.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Nov 2009 09:35

NRao wrote:The body language between the two is not that good - to me at least. Something is amiss. May be Obama has not got over his China trip and keeps mentioning "China" by mistake? Slip of the ..........

Why is there body language problem
Can somebody do some analysis

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2009 09:37

google says it will not remove this racist image of michelle obama that comes 1st in the image search.

http://images.google.co.in/images?hl=en ... 2&aq=f&oq=

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 25 Nov 2009 09:38

SwamyG wrote:The twisted smile made me go and search my posts - I remember using the word 'flattery' recently.

Both the supporters & detractors will scan this event to pick all points that favor their school of thought. Our likes and dislikes causes us to become emotional.

When it comes to Indo-US relationships, we can categorize BRFites into the following categories:
1. Who consider Unkil as a great friend/benefactor/partner of Desh's growth.
2. Who consider Unkil as a detractor of Desh's growth.
3. Have no opinion on the relationship.

SwamyG,

I had posted this earlier. A thoughtful blog post by Dhruva Jaishankar -

First, there are those who see American decline as greatly exaggerated and argue that American hegemony serves as a stabiliser to the world order.

Second, there are those who agree that American decline is exaggerated but argue that the United States’ unparalleled power is fundamentally destabilizing.

Third, there are those who see American decline as ongoing or imminent, and also undesirable

Finally, there are those who see American decline as underway or imminent, but also desirable

Worth a read!

The Rise of American Declinism, by Dhruva Jaishankar

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 25 Nov 2009 09:40

This doesn't look all good. I think this is going to go down in History as a debacle! And if that's what it is, that's what it should be. I have not seen anything come out of it. CNN (democrat news correspondent) represented this as an India vs Paki issue (bad for America).

So there you go. Lets see what comes out of this later.

Otherwise, I think India knows what it needs to do. Go at it alone, personally I've always been a fan of that ( just need the old gen to go!)

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 25 Nov 2009 09:43

Just looked at a glimpse of MMS and Obama in local news and sorry to be blunt but in those 15 seconds it did not look like somebody with any stature or backing of 1+ billion people was standing beside Obama.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Nov 2009 09:45

darshan wrote:Just looked at a glimpse of MMS and Obama in local news and sorry to be blunt but in those 15 seconds it did not look like somebody with any stature or backing of 1+ billion people was standing beside Obama.

How can you say that. Did'nt Indians vote for MMS and his party

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 25 Nov 2009 09:47

Singha wrote:google says it will not remove this racist image of michelle obama that comes 1st in the image search.

http://images.google.co.in/images?hl=en ... 2&aq=f&oq=

Maybe I am going daft but I don't see a racist pic

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 25 Nov 2009 09:47

Acharya wrote:
darshan wrote:Just looked at a glimpse of MMS and Obama in local news and sorry to be blunt but in those 15 seconds it did not look like somebody with any stature or backing of 1+ billion people was standing beside Obama.
How can you say that. Did'nt Indians vote for MMS and his party

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 25 Nov 2009 10:11

Manoman Singh is actually quite an impressive person-all substance, you want a poseur-look next door in Pakistan or in the US congress.

Like most truly intelligent people, he only says what is necessary.

I am not embarrassed in the least by MMS.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 25 Nov 2009 10:15

From http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 265412.cms

Obama was respectful and solicitous of his elderly guest, whom he described as "wise" and a man of honesty and integrity. Although their two joint appearances were not exactly effusive and the body language was flat, both leaders imparted weight to their promise of a major engagement in the 21st century, invoking their common history and political ideals.

I am no body language expert, but both MMS and Obama appear to be looking stiff as if unable to open up to each other too much. It almost looks like they had a bit too animated exchange during the meeting and then decided to cool it for the rest of the show (my personal opinion and speculation onlee).

It would have been nice to see Obama showing some of his election charm and MMS cracking his wide smiles. MMS is no charmer, but he is certainly the leader of 1 billion Indians and seems to be doing a great job of representing Indian interests. He is PM not a bollywood starlet.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 Nov 2009 10:24

Here is the toast at the State Dinner.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/2 ... 70007.html

I liked the order of the two countries in the following line of MMS

As two leading democracies, India and the United States must play a leading role in building a shared destiny for all humankind.

Isn't it customary to mention others first before mentioning the self? For some reason, it gave me the tickles. Who ever wrote that: Nicely done.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 25 Nov 2009 10:27

Hate to say this but it seems to me that India, in a sort of colonial flashback, looks for approval and a pat on the back from the western world. Nowhere is this better seen than in it's heavily publicized desire to be acknowledged as a "rising power" (whatever that means) by the United States. Sort of embarassing really! Notice all the articles about India's perceived offense as not being "recognized" by the U.S Prez in his speeches. Why the hell does it matter? - step up man and throw the idea of the colonial yoke off; the yoke itself has been off for the past 60 years! It is like a guy who wears glasses all day and then takes 'em off but keeps thinking they're still on and behaves accordingly!

What power was ever recognized as a power with this sort of approach? Power and respect is gained by doing things on your own terms and making the elite bow to your terms. Even the weak countries in the middle east know this, so does Noko. They don't have power but pack a solid pair of cajones. The elephant has more than enough power, every damned animal knows this - only the elephant seems to have forgotten and its knees are made of jello! Nuckin futs!

CM

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 25 Nov 2009 10:37

Here is the full list from the Huffington Post which got it from the WH:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/2 ... 65029.html

And another from C-SPAN:
http://www.c-span.org/pdf/09state_dinner_guests.pdf

Can someone go through this list and point out the notables and what significance they have?

As to why do we care about this visit?

1. Ramanaji asked that this thread focus on it.
2. We were looking for any strategic opening as seen in the Bush administration. Like the dismantling of the NSG.
3. Any policy shifts which are favorable for the US from the INC and MMS specifically for the Ombaba administration.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 25 Nov 2009 10:58

Amber G. wrote:Just to set the record straight about Diwali and White House - Bushes had the event but IIRC they chickened out by the protests of Pakis types to personally attend the event. Obama was/is the first POTUS who personally attended the celebrations of Diwali in the White House.

The Bush administration changed their India policy only after Colin Powell left the administration in 2005 and after getting significant improvement in Indo-US ties. There was and still is a lot of institutional dislike for India. Bush tried to change it and for that you must give him credit. Therefore Bush started the Diwali celebration when it was possible for him after 2005 knowing there would be less opposition to it. I don't know if Ombaba would have started it had this never happened in the previous administration. Ombaba to his credit is trying to maintain the tradition & practices of his predecessors and its no skin off his back to light a diya, but would please PIOs in the US, so why not.

Dubya & Laura did not attend the last Diwali event in 2008 because of pressure coming from the Evanjelical Jihadi (EJ) elements in the WH, who really hate Hindus. It was a deliberate snub to PIOs. Not because of protest of Paki types, but EJ types. The WaPo article is speculation. Even Ombaba gave a special Ramazan message last August and it seems that is now tradition. Perhaps the Ombaba lovers in Ohio can persuade him to celebrate Holi, Ganesh Chaturthi or Pongal (Makara Sankranthi)?

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 25 Nov 2009 11:21

A summary of Obama-Singh meeting

http://greatbong.net/2009/11/24/the-party/#more-4159

Obama: “Ok Dr. Singh. Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time, there was this Dad who had three sons.

The eldest son earned a lot and was the true breadwinner, paying a sizeable sum so that Dad can pay his health bill, buy clothes and in general live his life. Dad, knowing that he was totally dependent on the eldest, would scold him from time to time but essentially would let him do what he wanted to if for nothing else than for self-preservation.

The youngest son was wild, debauched and an absolute criminal. He lived off on Dad’s and the eldest son’s charity and yet wanted more. If he did not get what he wanted, he threatened to set the house on fire. Hence he had to be paid off.

The middle son didnt earn as much as the eldest and was peaceful, tranquil and positively sheepish. Hence he neither commanded nuisance value nor actual value.Sometimes Dad, in a gesture of supreme tokenism, would throw a party “in his honor” but that was it.”

Dr. Singh: “Hmm…So USA is the Dad….”

Obama: “Yes Dr. Singh. I know you can figure this one out. Now if you will excuse me, Michelle needs a foot massage and I really should get going. It was a pleasure talking to you and sharing the values of our great democracies and re-inforcing the bonds that have held together the peoples of these two mighty lands.

Thank you.”

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 25 Nov 2009 11:46

A low profile coverage in US media.

and good to see comparatively similar coverage in Indian media.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 25 Nov 2009 11:54

If India had not blasted nuke devices in 1998, would there be a Indo-US nuke deal in first place?

The pok-2 increased India's nuisance value and hence importance.. I think if India displays her rogue side, within few years of sanctions, there will some bigger treaty to foster and strengthen the relation of two nations who share democratic values...

I sincerely wish India developed submarine launched MIRVed Agni 5 asap and then conduct series of nuke-tests (pok-3)... within 5-6 years of this, west will sign one more landmark treaty with India..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2009 12:24

PRC used the strategy of raising the cost of keeping it outside the tent quite successfully to break into every white boys club and then exploit it from within - like blatantly indulge in nuclear proliferation yet freely buy uranium from australia.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 25 Nov 2009 12:44

During any such visit/occasion EJ comments on various internet fora typically talk about India's caste system.

they think "caste" system is a big counterpoint to Indian democracy.

I think a two fold policy of :

1. Highlighting India's affirmative action programs ( largest in the world)
2. Detailing the various levels of second class citizenry that have existed and continue to exist in the western world must be done.

Caste was a factor in all so called Indo-European peoples. In the west it weakened as the feudal society was slowly replaced by the tyranny of anglo-saxon finance.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 25 Nov 2009 13:02

'Explaining' the changes and 'highlighting' the affirmative actions are all meaningless exercises in response to such malicious statements. Responses should be based on the motivation of the original statement/source. They are not cases of innocent ignorance waiting to be 'corrected' by us. Instead, they are publicity-seeking tarring efforts unworthy of defensive 'explanations'. As an analogy, someone who comes and patiently wishes to learn about problems they've heard of is worth spending time explaining to, but a person who comes and rudely points a finger in ones face is not.

Of the two-fold measure mentioned, the second must be forcefully stated repeatedly with equal publicity to push them back, and then the first asserted once they're in a defensive position.