Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2009 09:59

I am not sure takeover of hostile airfields is part of the mandate. the regular paras (like us rangers) could be tasked with that. garud strength looks too small to indulge in batallion strength ops like taking airbases over against opposition.

would something like the RAF regiment be it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Regiment

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Nov 2009 11:07

As per their training, it seems Garuds do train for takeover and control of hostile airfields (which will include manning it after capture).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Nov 2009 11:10

possibly can add neutralisation of SAM batteries to that.

koti · Post by **koti** » 25 Nov 2009 12:35

Anyone have any idea whether or not ForceOne has acquired CornerShot or similar eqipment?
And why on earth have they opted for M4?? They are are a lot of better weapons already available/used like TAR, MTAR, F2000, P90, Sig552 etc......

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 Nov 2009 12:47

koti wrote:Anyone have any idea whether or not ForceOne has acquired CornerShot or similar eqipment?
And why on earth have they opted for M4?? They are are a lot of better weapons already available/used like TAR, MTAR, F2000, P90, Sig552 etc......

Is there anything wrong with m4?
As Force One, unlike the Military SF, will not have to operate in extreme environments m4 is a good weapon for them.
I would never like Military SF (like para or marcos) to get m4, but for urban environment, I see no problem with it.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 25 Nov 2009 13:36

Gaur wrote:I would never like Military SF (like para or marcos) to get m4, but for urban environment, I see no problem with it.

Sir, how would M4, being such a long weapon, be helpful in CQB situations like the one at Taj or Oberoi, which are again calssified as urban environment? Would you not prefer something shorter like the MP5 instead?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 Nov 2009 14:33

^^ True, for Taj like situations, it would always be better to have mp5.
But Force One have acquired them, have they not?
But a 9mm smg is not good for every situation.
What if the next batch of terrorists use BPJs?
What if the situation demands shooting at relatively longer range?
Would an smg do well in that situation?
That is why every CT force uses carbines in addition to smgs.
Note that NSG used mp5 in Mumbai Ops, yet they have ordered Sig-552 Commando carbines.

Also, I am not saying that m4 is the best choice. But it is not a bad choice either.
But to say that Force One does not need carbines is wrong IMO.

PS: Please, no need for "Sir".

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Nov 2009 14:37

NSG 'used' SIG-552 in 26/11 ops, not just order the later.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 25 Nov 2009 15:05

How the NSG has changed after 26/11

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 25 Nov 2009 16:29

Some Force One pics and a story on 2 friends in Force One
Force two

Some details about the latest acquisitions in NSG
NSG hub: Fit for the fight

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 25 Nov 2009 18:47

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Articl ... 003&mode=1

Apparently, 4 commandos fainted in the heat today. How did THAT happen?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Nov 2009 18:58

Dmurphy wrote:......
Some details about the latest acquisitions in NSG
NSG hub: Fit for the fight

The commandos are provided with all infrastructure like submachine guns and Australian made pistols which will enable them to be on a par with international counter terrorism units.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 25 Nov 2009 19:30

yeah man, I noticed that too.

As you know, they probably meant austrian.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Nov 2009 19:33

yeah, glock. but I wonder how people of the caliber who confuse austria and australia tend to end up in our media.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 25 Nov 2009 19:47

Probably, they end up in media due to THAT reason only!!

Or maybe, they are selected by people for whom, every object remotely resembling a firearm is the "latest and sophisticated" AK 47

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Nov 2009 19:57

Well its a brave new world out there with Austrians and Australian in the Yellow Sea separated by the State of Malakha fighting it out with their American made Mirage 21s.

In the old days we needed LSD to think like this. Now its a profession.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 25 Nov 2009 19:57

atreya wrote:Probably, they end up in media due to THAT reason only!!
Or maybe, they are selected by people for whom, every object remotely resembling a firearm is the "latest and sophisticated" AK 47

One of the reasons is there are very few to question them. How many people you associate with know what a Glock is, forget where its made? So these people can get away with any BS they want.
When the Su-30 was first inducted, the Pune papers ran many articles with MiG 29 pics labeling them as Sukhois. Twin tail, twin engine, hey must be the same thing!
Let them post the wrong picture of a cricketer or actor and then see the number of letters to the editor.

Anyways, we should take this to the "Errors in defence reporting" thread.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 26 Nov 2009 00:06

Rahul M wrote:NSG 'used' SIG-552 in 26/11 ops, not just order the later.

Yes, they used SIG-552 for sniping, did they not?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Nov 2009 00:14

we were actually a bit confused among 3 candidates (IIRC), 552,553 and 550(1). I forget what the final verdict was. there could have been more than once version of the above too.

you can have a look at the archives.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 26 Nov 2009 17:48

In the past 1-1.5 years, commando units are being raised everywhere. Especially after 26/11. To keep a track of all of them, I have collated some commando units below. Kindly check them and add on, if I have missed any.
NOTE: 1) Not all of the following units are new. Some may have existed for a long time. However, they are not mentioned in BR.
2) Commando units that do not have a name, have simply been called "Commando unit"

CISF- Black panther
CRPF- CoBRA
ITBP- Commando unit
RPF- RPSF
Assam Rifles- Commando unit (to be raised)
Mumbai Police- Force 1
Andhra Police- Greyhounds Unit (specific anti-Naxal)
Delhi Police- Commando unit

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 27 Nov 2009 10:34

I went to Taj/Gateway of India yesterday evening. Saw the Force 1 commandos upclose. Few observations
- ALL of them were young guys - almost like new recruits
- 2 Mahindra Marksman small armoured vehicles were there
- 1 Tata 713 C (cummins engine) 4x4 APV was there
- Atleast 3 groups I noticed where 2 of the commandos had MP 4 and the third had a MP 9. Dont know if that is by design or happened by chance

I wish the word 'commando' was not written so big on the unfiorms. Subtleness is surely not desired in what is a also a big political statement by our politicians that they are doing something.

But frankly the best of the lot that I liked were the Mumbai police guys with Ak 47s. They had that hardened and matter-of-fact look about them.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Nov 2009 10:57

atreya wrote:In the past 1-1.5 years, commando units are being raised everywhere. Especially after 26/11. To keep a track of all of them, I have collated some commando units below. Kindly check them and add on, if I have missed any.
NOTE: 1) Not all of the following units are new. Some may have existed for a long time. However, they are not mentioned in BR.
2) Commando units that do not have a name, have simply been called "Commando unit"

CISF- Black panther
CRPF- CoBRA
ITBP- Commando unit
RPF- RPSF
Assam Rifles- Commando unit (to be raised)
Mumbai Police- Force 1
Andhra Police- Greyhounds Unit (specific anti-Naxal)
Delhi Police- Commando unit

You forgot the creek crocodiles...( what a name

)
New force to man hostile creeks along Indo-Pak border

In order to thwart landing of terrorists through the sea route, BSF has formed its first commando unit -- Creek Crocodiles -- to man the hostile creek area where India shares border with Pakistan.

Creeks are a very hostile terrain constituting of numerous raised grounds having mangroves and a network of water channels which are quite shallow where all movements are tide dependent.

Creek Crocodiles are trained to thwart any evil designs from across the border, BSF Commandant Pushpendrasinh Rathore, who is training the commando unit at Koteshwar outpost of BSF, told PTI.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Nov 2009 11:41

Soon commandos and special forces will outnumber regular soldiers...somewhat like the 51% reservation for "minorities" in certain states

.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 27 Nov 2009 11:41

To add to the list

CISF- Black panther
CRPF- CoBRA
ITBP- Commando unit
RPF- RPSF
Assam Rifles- Commando unit (to be raised)
Mumbai Police- Force 1
Andhra Police- Greyhounds Unit (specific anti-Naxal)
Delhi Police- Commando unit
BSF : Creek commandos (link posted above)
C60 : anti naxalite force of Maharashtra police

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 27 Nov 2009 13:06

Gaur wrote:^^ True, for Taj like situations, it would always be better to have mp5.
But Force One have acquired them, have they not?
But a 9mm smg is not good for every situation.
What if the next batch of terrorists use BPJs?
What if the situation demands shooting at relatively longer range?
Would an smg do well in that situation?
That is why every CT force uses carbines in addition to smgs.
Note that NSG used mp5 in Mumbai Ops, yet they have ordered Sig-552 Commando carbines.

Also, I am not saying that m4 is the best choice. But it is not a bad choice either.
But to say that Force One does not need carbines is wrong IMO.

PS: Please, no need for "Sir".

What I can't figure out is why do we keep talking about MP5 9mm when there is the MP-UMP available which has the .45 acp with higher penetration.

Also the big european manufacturers (HK, FN etc..) have come out with the number of options in SMG which have bullets with high penetration ballistics such as the
CBJ-MS PDW / Submachine gun 6.5x25

or the

HK MP7A1 submachine gun 4.6x30mm

The M4 is however an excellent SAFE choice since it has been widely used tested and can be heavily customized depending on user.
On a separate note I was sure that mumbai police was buying the flat top carbine (which allows for ACOG 4X telescopic, ACOG Reflex red-dot etc..) but the Force Two article shows the guy carrying the handle version......

Unfortunately it seems no matter how many times it is written here or anywhere, our brave jawans in the SF (army or paramilitary) DO NOT HAVE ACCESS to a large number of weapons...
They until very recently were either given the AK-47, Vz's and more recently the tavor.
Even the NSG don't have a whole lot of choice. its either the MP5 or AK-47 (sniper rifles apart).

Recently there was a picture of an NSG jawan with a supressed MP5...HK MP-5SD3 on perimeter guard duty here on BR itself. Made me think if he had a choice would he really choose to use a weak 9mm SMG with a further lowered muzzle velocity due to the supressor when some suicidal piglet decides to rush him. I think not.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 27 Nov 2009 13:32

ssmitra wrote:They until very recently were either given the AK-47, Vz's and more recently the tavor.

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but whats wrong with the AK-47s? Is it because of the high recoil? But it does have the killing power. And limiting the variety of guns in the force is a good way to cut down on the efforts to maintain them.

JMT

ssmitra wrote:Even the NSG don't have a whole lot of choice. its either the MP5 or AK-47 (sniper rifles apart).

I have photograph of the NSG practising with Tavors.

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 27 Nov 2009 13:58

Dmurphy wrote:
ssmitra wrote:They until very recently were either given the AK-47, Vz's and more recently the tavor.
Excuse my lack of knowledge, but whats wrong with the AK-47s? Is it because of the high recoil? But it does have the killing power. And limiting the variety of guns in the force is a good way to cut down on the efforts to maintain them.

JMT

ssmitra wrote:Even the NSG don't have a whole lot of choice. its either the MP5 or AK-47 (sniper rifles apart).
I have photograph of the NSG practising with Tavors.

There is nothing wrong with them, but given the fact that jawans already carrying out long foot patrols in hostile conditions would it not be prudent that being a rising economic powerhouse we at least provide them with lighter weapons with higher accuracy and less kick...
however since we are talking about special forces in this sections I don't think "efforts to maintain them" is a relevant argument (with all due respect to you) unless they are used as line infantry (albeit highly trained ones)

as for NSG training with tavors is not surprising since most of them come from the para-sf regiments. However it must be a relatively recent development since I don't believe Tavors were ever observed in mumbai.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Nov 2009 14:12

since our special units are diversifying in numbers and scope, I guess its best for a safe and time tested choice like M4/MP-x and a dal-roti MSG90/SIG sniper rifle than very bleeding edge kit that hasnt seen much field use.

OFB should be kicked on its behind and made to come up with a INSAS sniper rifle with bipod, scope and long barrel that state police anti-naxal forces could use. quite often I see these naxals "taking up position" in villages or forests and holding off police armed with 303/FAFAL....police need LMG and sniper rifles with good training to put fear of god in them.

koti · Post by **koti** » 27 Nov 2009 15:23

OFB should be kicked on its behind and made to come up with a INSAS sniper rifle with bipod, scope and long barrel that state police anti-naxal forces could use.

Insas AR with scope and Insas LMG with scope are already available. I fail to see the requirement to develop another rifle of same caliber.
I don't see a reason why IA has no advanced dedicated sniper rifles(like this one) other then Marksman rifles like SVD and Galil.
So I think working on other calibers would be more appropriate then working on Insas for a Sniper rifle version.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Nov 2009 15:26

does anyone know how widely the INSAS sniper and LMG versions are deployed in the regular army?

by now are there any army units left using FN-FAL?

I believe we purchased around 700 units of Denel NTW20mm rifle before *sigh* Denel got blacklisted under holier than thou sandbox games

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-con ... /ntw20.jpg

take a look....a "rifle" that is 180cm long, a barrel the thickness of a man's fore arm...thats some serious meat there. I guess one guy would carry the barrel and another the rest out in the field.

whispers say the pakis used to play smart all the time, before we got a few of these and *killed* some pakis through the sandbags and bricks of their sangars...then they eased up and acted fair.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Nov 2009 15:31

Singha wrote: by now are there any army units left using FN-FAL?

IIRC, none. But I've seen the SLR used for ceremonial purposes.....

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 27 Nov 2009 15:37

Singha wrote:take a look....a "rifle" that is 180cm long, a barrel the thickness of a man's fore arm...thats some serious meat there. I guess one guy would carry the barrel and another the rest out in the field.

Isn't that an Anti Material Rifle rather than a sniper rifle?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 Nov 2009 16:21

rohitvats wrote:
Singha wrote: by now are there any army units left using FN-FAL?
IIRC, none. But I've seen the SLR used for ceremonial purposes.....

There are still some AMC (Army Medical Core) Units that use them.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 Nov 2009 16:31

ssmitra,
I am no ballistics expert, but IMO even .45 acp and 4.6x30mm would have a hard time bypassing level 3 BPJs.
But even if get across that, what about range?
Each type of weapon has its own place and cannot substitute for other.
That is why every force needs carbine in addition to other weapon types. Is there any urban CT unit in the world that does not use carbines?
Again, I am not saying that m4 is the best carbine available, but it is a good choice nevertheless.

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 27 Nov 2009 18:44

sugriva wrote:To add to the list

CISF- Black panther
CRPF- CoBRA
ITBP- Commando unit
RPF- RPSF
Assam Rifles- Commando unit (to be raised)
Mumbai Police- Force 1
Andhra Police- Greyhounds Unit (specific anti-Naxal)
Delhi Police- Commando unit
BSF : Creek commandos (link posted above)
C60 : anti naxalite force of Maharashtra police

If we are talking of State-specific units then how about Special Operations Group of the Jammu & Kashmir Police and the UP police's Special Task Force.

Does the Tamil Nadu police have a crack commando unit? I remember seeing pictures somewhere but can't recall the name. Thanks.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Nov 2009 19:12

Even the NSG don't have a whole lot of choice. its either the MP5 or AK-47 (sniper rifles apart).

that is not quite true. even during mumbai at least two versions of the SIG SG-550 series were observed.
someone posted an image of the NSG armoury from its site once that contained quite a large selection of weapons.
there is an upper limit however on how many types an unit can operate in an ops.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Nov 2009 19:26

rather than just the latest toys with ipod cradles and usb ports to download diagnostics, perhaps one should look
at improving training also. in order to setup NSG hubs,GOI had asked the state govts for land to setup training facilities. cities like bangalore that were not given NSG hubs but army SF units were asked to make do with existing land the army already owns. the "gold std" SF/CT units worldwide allegedly get to shoot 100s of rounds a day. we should also aim to match that and build ever more realistic and varied training ranges including marine ones.
the state police CT and anti-naxal units could also probably find lot more live shooting facilities useful.

at the low end of the scale, the 'vanilla' state armed police while not matching the small-unit tactics, mobility
and precision of the more elite units must be able to stand their ground and land some accurate fire. I had once asked a assam police guy guarding a museum in guwahati how much shooting he got - he said they went to range once a year to shoot off 5 live rounds.

even the local cops in avg US town get better shooting practice than that. perhaps on their own cost or subsidy they probably also do extra sessions in pvt shooting ranges. many of them also hunt game animals and birds as a matter of culture.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 27 Nov 2009 19:33

Singha - you are correct. When some police forces sent their units designated for anti-naxal work to the army for training, a disproportionate amount of time was spent on marksmanship which was sub-standard.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 Nov 2009 20:27

Dmurphy wrote:I have photograph of the NSG practising with Tavors.

Can you please post them or provide a link?

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 27 Nov 2009 20:48

abhishekm wrote:
sugriva wrote:To add to the list

CISF- Black panther
CRPF- CoBRA
ITBP- Commando unit
RPF- RPSF
Assam Rifles- Commando unit (to be raised)
Mumbai Police- Force 1
Andhra Police- Greyhounds Unit (specific anti-Naxal)
Delhi Police- Commando unit
BSF : Creek commandos (link posted above)
C60 : anti naxalite force of Maharashtra police
If we are talking of State-specific units then how about Special Operations Group of the Jammu & Kashmir Police and the UP police's Special Task Force.

Does the Tamil Nadu police have a crack commando unit? I remember seeing pictures somewhere but can't recall the name. Thanks.

Thank you sugriva

Abhishekm, I "think", SOG and STF will not be included in this list., as they are not exactly "commando" trained. They are formed for a specific purpose- SOG for helping RR in fighting terrorists and STF for combating rising crime in UP. STFs are formed in almost all state police forces to combat crime. But most of them are not commando-trained, AFAIK. Do let me know if you have any sources proving otherwise.
TN Police STF is commando trained, I think. So they maybe included here. It is called 22 STF, according to their official site
http://tnpolice.gov.in/news_archives.php?yr=2009

While, this news article calls it "Tamil Nadu Commando Force"
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/07/04/stor ... 610800.htm

Note the DDMitis at the end of the article. MP-5 "rifle"