Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

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Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

In the Eye of the Storm: Updating the Economics of Global Turbulence

Very interesting perspective, slightly longish and academic though.

Central thesis is that Asset bubbles post the 70s aren't aberrations or side-effects but the main drivers of whatever growth we saw in the non-bubble periods. Revolutionary, and no wonder the author takes us on a trip starting Sri Karl Marx's understanding of the competing systems of socioeconomic organization.
Brenner is skeptical. What sets him apart from both conventional liberal and conservative analysis that seeks to explain the crisis in terms of financial shenanigans is his view of the “decreasing vitality of the advanced capitalist economies rooted in a major decline, and stubborn failure to revive, of the rate of profit, finding its fundamental... source in a persistent tendency towards over-capacity in the global manufacturing sector, which originated in the intensification of international competition between the mid-1960s and mid-1970s.” (emphasis added).

It is here that Brenner becomes so interesting to those of us who study East Asia. Because unlike any other Western economic historian of whom I am aware, Brenner fully grasps the significance to global capitalism of what has happened in East Asia since the appearance of the export-led, state-directed Japanese growth model in the 1960s and its spread throughout Asia since the 1970s.

“Manufacturing over-capacity emerged, was reproduced, and has been further deepened by way of an extended process of uneven development in which a succession of newly-emerging manufacturing powers has been able, thanks to systematic state intervention and highly organized forms of capitalism, to realize the potential advantages of coming late, especially by combining ever increasing technological sophistication with relatively cheap labor and orienting for the world market.”
Brenner contends that “the premature entry of high-competitive lower cost producers, especially in the newly developing regions of East Asia” would have led to serious crisis were it not for the ability of advanced capitalist governments to make available “titanic volumes of credit.” For a while, “traditional Keynesian measures” did the trick in compensating for the decline in manufacturing profitability in the Western capitalist countries, but like a diabetic facing insulin-resistance, governments found that these measures became less and less effective over time.

Instead, “artificially cheap domestic credit” opened the way for “domestic asset bubbles” made possible by the growing financialization of the economy and the migration of human and financial capital from industry to Wall Street and the City of London. Specifically, “the weakness of business investment made for a sharp reduction in the demand by business for credit.

East Asian governments' unending purchases of dollar-denominated assets with the goal of keeping the value of their currencies down, the competitiveness of their manufacturing up, and the borrowing and the purchasing power of US consumers increasing made for a rising supply of subsidized loans...One has therefore witnessed for the last dozen years or so the extraordinary spectacle of a world economy in which the continuation of capital accumulation has come literally to depend upon historic waves of speculation, carefully nurtured and publicly rationalized by state policy makers and regulators – first in equities between 1995 and 2000, then in housing and leveraged lending between 2000 and 2007. What is good for Goldman Sachs – no longer GM – is what is good for America.” (emphasis in the original).
If this is correct, there is no easy fix for our problems. The blowing of asset bubbles is not an unfortunate side effect of regulatory capture or Wall Street’s greed. It was the only way governments could keep economic growth from falling below politically dangerous levels once traditional Keynesian methods of fiscal stimulus through deficit spending were no longer adequate to compensate for the sclerosis at the heart of the advanced capitalist economies: “worsening difficulties with profitability and capital accumulation.” Brenner labels this bubble-blowing “stock market Keynesianism” referring to deliberate measures by governments to steer credit into equity markets.
Read it all. Recommended read only.
Singha
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Singha »

it increasingly sounds like Prad sir has joined the D&G gang via induction :wink:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by amol.p »

Katare wrote:The economic recovery world over is consolidating......

India China is growing at blistering pace, while almost all of the world has officially came out of recession.

Europe exits recession; EU economy grows 0.3% in Q3

US Jobless claims
US jobless claims drop to 4,57,000

IIRC, once this number comes down to 400,000 and holds there it'll signal job creation in the US economy. With the rate its falling it'll take a few weeks to get there. Inshallah, early next year we may see the turn around at main street after this year's turnaround at wall street.

UK bank bailout cost hits $1.4 trillion: Watchdog
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 298529.cms

Washington Times to cut work force by 40%

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 298399.cms
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Opening of world's tallest tower marks end of Dubai era
Next month's opening of the Burj Dubai tower, the world's tallest building, will bring Dubai's era of exuberant expansion to a juddering halt as hundreds of other building projects are already mothballed.
Right. A grand opening for the Burj Dubai would be the proverbial fiddling whilst the capital burns.
Developer Emaar has officially announced that Burj Dubai tower will open on January 4, the fourth anniversary of Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashed al-Maktoum's accession to power in Dubai.

Under construction since 2004, the opening of the steel-and-glass landmark has unofficially been put back from late 2008, but no further delay is likely for fear of loss of face by Emaar, which has not escaped the impact of the global property downturn.

It is keeping quiet about how many tenants it has found for the 160-storey building and the company's plan announced in June to merge with state-owned Dubai Holding gave the impression that stock-market listed Emaar was not in the healthiest financial condition.

That impression was reinforced on Thursday by ratings agency Standard and Poor's Corp, which included both Emaar and Dubai Holding among six state-linked companies it downgraded to junk bond status.
But fear not, Dubai still has a lot to offer.
Despite the debt crisis that unfolded last week, Dubai remains a bustling city full of eyecatching sights.

The city state's iconic national symbol is the three-kilometre (two mile) long Palm Jumeirah artificial island, full of luxury villas whose owners are said to include David Beckham and Brad Pitt.
Am reminded of the city of Detroit's woes recently. Have a post on it from a few days back, on this thread somewhere, IIRC. Heck, google zindabad, here's the story:
Silverdome sale price disappoints
Pontiac -- Nearly 35 years after taxpayers spent $55.7 million building the Pontiac Silverdome and a year after a $20 million sale fell through, city officials have sold the arena once called the most desirable property in Oakland County.

The price: $583,000.

"This was a giveaway," said David J. Leitch, a broker with an Auburn Hills based realty firm.
IMHO, it should be self-evident why the silverdome story finds place here in this post. Dubai's circus-like construction mania may endup with fixed-asset disposal at fire-sale prices too, perhaps. Unlikely, I know, esp given Dubai law makes it illegal to sell property to payoff debtors, but who knows, eh?
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

US Jobless claims
US jobless claims drop to 4,57,000

IIRC, once this number comes down to 400,000 and holds there it'll signal job creation in the US economy. With the rate its falling it'll take a few weeks to get there. Inshallah, early next year we may see the turn around at main street after this year's turnaround at wall street.
Theek hai. I would like to believe that too.

Tell me, which among the known industrial sectors is willing to hire based on projections of an uptick in demand over the next 2 years?

And its not hard to see why *no* sector out there forsees a rise in demand. Because consumers are maxed out. Credit is unavailable anymore. Willingness to take on additional debt is willy-nilly absent save protracted pushes like the $8000 tax credit for 'zero-down payment new home purchases' kinda sham schemes.

In fact the debt-deflation cycle is moving. Savings rates have risen, the dollah actually rises and general price levels for all non-essentials (except housing) falls. Overcapacity is rife in the ekhanomy. Part-time hires, who generally lead the prospect of an uptick in permanent hires, is not going up!

Sure, job losses are falling but for that to translate to a rise in hiring, much else needs to happen.

Well, enough D&G for now. Let us continue to hope that a real recovery is round the corner and that the specter of Japan's deflationary pressures will not revisit the world.
ArmenT
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by ArmenT »

This article on what can sometimes happen to Commodity Futures traders is absolutely hilarious
http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Special-Delivery.aspx
Note that the name of the company and location have been changed a bit to protect the guilty.
sanjaykumar
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by sanjaykumar »

Ah yes the world's tallest folly-built in Doobaa, fear not Abhi Doobaa is coming :lol: to the rescue.
Satya_anveshi
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Satya_anveshi »

What if we develop our own utopialand that is built over massive credit, provide world class infrastructure, amenities, let's say a singapore replica without sovereign guarantee and run amock by privates.

If the privates go bust, do the negatives overshadow possitives in a country like India?

How bad it is for our *limited geography* to be an Iceland, Ireland, UK, or even Dubail world? Why not we have or create some Dubais that can jolly well go bust (I know this is a pathetic statement to make for some)?

Iceland - I know we discussed this before...a bunch of fishermen with nice homes, cars, and everything who went bust...is it bad than just being a mere fishermen?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by paramu »

Singha wrote:it increasingly sounds like Prad sir has joined the D&G gang via induction :wink:
Not sure why he has to join D&G gang as US has a Federal Reserve that can continuously supply endless amount of money as they are destroyed. Everything should be okay after some time. :wink:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by paramu »

Why Goldman Sachs Is JPMorgan’s Biggest Asset: David Reilly

Basically Goldman Sucks is protecting J P Murugan. We don't know if there is any behind the scene connections.
ramana
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by ramana »

The crash of 2008 has put paid to baby boomer retirement. They will die in the work force as they cant afford to retire.
So can rest easy on that count.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Katare »

ramana wrote:The crash of 2008 has put paid to baby boomer retirement. They will die in the work force as they cant afford to retire.
So can rest easy on that count.
That's what I think too. I am hearing about this BB retirement crap for last one decade, I don't think it's going to happen that suddenly. People will retire gardually depending on what/how much they have saved up. Some will keep working up until they are ready to die.

Obama-Job market jump start
ramana
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by ramana »

Hari, GD and Katare, I realised today that less developed economies have revolutions and wars to change their societies. Modern economies have massive recessions. The unfortunate have both.

I think I should patent this as it summarise three hundred years fo world history in three lines.

If you start from French Revolution -> US Civil War-> First World War-> Tsarist Russian Revolution-> Great Depression -> World War II -> FSU Collapse-> Crash of 2008 the above maxim is true.

Look at the words from common people and not the leaders. How did they change before and after the event.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by shyamd »

Got this in an email today:
The safest banking institutions in the world reside in countries that (1) do not have, and are unlikely to impose, exchange controls or wealth transfer restrictions and (2) have a low overall debt-to-deposits ratio. Not surprisingly, the top candidates are the same as those with the safest debt: Switzerland and Singapore.

Nevertheless, do not fall into the trap of choosing any Swiss bank just because it’s Swiss. Today’s largest Swiss banks, with their fat portfolios of derivatives, are at immense risk of failure if a depression occurs. Furthermore, they have branches worldwide and are thus vulnerable to the whims of numerous governments. The best course of action is to locate smaller, safer local Swiss banks. Austria’s low debt per capita makes it a good backup alternative. If you want to find a safe bank, these jurisdictions are the place to begin.
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Hari, GD and Katare, I realised today that less developed economies have revolutions and wars to change their societies. Modern economies have massive recessions. The unfortunate have both.
Ramana garu, while general, am not sure if the above observation would be unoiversal - several counterexamples come to mind. The 30s Germany was quite developed in economic terms - they did endure a severe recession and that contributed in no small measure to war.

IMHO, war is but economics by other means. A world rife with excess capacity (as now) threatens the profit base of elites everywhere. The wealth and asset base of the said elites are also similarly threatened. The elites in different countries will then seek to remove the excess capacity through a variety of means - regulation, tariff barriers n protectionism, non-tariff barriers such as labor and environmental standards and finally, when all else fails, in an orgy of destructive creation (with apologies to Josef Schumpeter) via war.

Of course the dev of WMD since WWII has since complicated the simple certainties of war, so am guessing a trade war and the division of the world into politico-military trading blocs is a distinct possibility.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by vera_k »

I have talked to plenty of baby boomers about their intentions to retire over many years going back to before this latest recession. The people who do not have enough assets - which includes pretty much all blue collar workers - know it and do not plan to retire. Only those who are comfortably placed are retiring and moving out of the work force. Even at my white collar workplace, only those baby boomers who are given the golden boot eventually decide to take the money and retire.
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

That Boomer retirements are in jeopardy is no secret. The boomers were the golden gen - children of what the yanks call the 'greatest generation', fighters and victors of WWII. An entire gen brought up in relative health, wealth and luxury that the world had never seen before them. Am sorry to say that boomers also screwed up things quite a bit since the 70s in ekhanomic terms. When today's reality is contrasted with yesteryears' potential, the contrast is numbing.

What worsens matters for a lot of boomers is that their pensions are in doodoo whether in the public or the pvt sectors.

The big chunk of boomers who worked in the public sector at anything other than the federal level (i.e. retired on pensions from state, municipality or county governments) may soon see their pensions and retirements under strain because local gubmints ares eriously hurting and many are technically bankrupt.

Things are shakier in the pvt sector where unfunded retirements and pension plans are the norm rather than the exception.

On top of this already sad story is an orgy of household debt, unprecedented in peacetime history that has not gone down significantly despite the asset values based on which it was built - house prices - crashing with more falls to come.

Jap retirees have savings at least, even if they may have dwindling family support from the next gen for their golden yrs due to bewildering demographic deficits coupled with the longest life spans in the world.

Meanwhile PRC we are told is racing to get rich before it grows old - its biggest ever gamble underpinning its sacrosanct 1-child policy.

Wahan, the rich world, already rich and now increasingly old suddenly finds a lot of its 'riches' were debt fuelled and had a maturity and return conditionality to them attached.

The cycle goes on and on.

Hari Om.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by shyamd »

Municipalty's are technically broke and were only saved by the stimulus package. Municipalty's have borrowed more than they can repay., they can't meet pension liabilities which are estimated to be around a trillion by Moody's. A lot of their debts will be maturing between 2010-17 and they will be awash with defaults. Tax revenues are declining. The prediction is that, these Muni bonds will land in trouble next year (I hear some of the big insurance co's are getting out of the muni bond market while ordinary folk are parking their money there under the belief that FDIC will save them), FDIC(they are insuring more than they can actually pay off, a bit like AIG) may not be able to save them.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by vishwakarmaa »

prad wrote:only 11000 jobs lost! and September and Oct. losses were revised down too: Sep. from 219K to 139K and Oct. from 190K to 111K.
If dollar dies, then US will lose influence on many parts of world. Faking statistics to sustain confidence in dollar is not a big deal. So, every economist knows those numbers are more political and less real.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Philip »

Celebrating Hubris amidst the debris of Dubai's economy!


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 945283.ece
How Dubai's burst bubble has left behind the last days of Rome

Hugh Tomlinson and James McLean in Dubai

The engine of the black Corvette revved to a gasket-popping roar. Its driver leant out of his window. He was dressed in traditional Arab robes but wore a rubber wizard’s mask. He held an aerosol aloft and directed a jet of party foam into the air. Four-wheel drives plastered in pictures of Dubai’s Royal Family roared their engines back in approval. The cacophony was deafening.

On the opposite carriageway smoke billowed from the spinning back wheels of a new Land Cruiser as the driver pressed the brakes and floored the accelerator. This was the favourite way for many of the fervently patriotic and car crazy Emiratis to mark National Day in Dubai this week, the 38th anniversary of the founding of the United Arab Emirates, and one of the biggest celebrations of the year.

A mile away at the new Marina Yacht Club, Western expats were also working their way into a party mood. Deferential Filipino staff served a foamy lobster broth as an amuse bouche between courses. Beer and cocktails loosened tongues and a knot of dancers formed in front of the band. Tens of millions of pounds worth of powerboats bobbed at their moorings beneath the revelry on the terrace. Behind the boats a dozen skyscrapers framed the view, a few of the lights in their thousands of flats were on. “It’s so beautiful here,” said a pretty young Anglo-Indian woman clutching a large glass of chilled white wine and taking in the scene.

Welcome to the modern equivalent of the last days of Rome. The failure of Dubai World, one of the Emirate’s flagship companies, to honour a debt due last month has rocked this city state to its foundations. By any conventional logic Dubai is now a busted flush.

Related Links
Confidence will never return in Dubai
Dubai is the damp squib as other emirates celebrate
Federation born amid rivalry of ruling families

Superficially there has been no change to life here in the days since the failure to pay up triggered financial carnage but nowhere does superficial as convincingly as Dubai.

The Emirate has been struggling for many months, and if you scratch the surface the pain in this new and gaudy metropolis is palpable. Ross, who asked not to be identified, is one of countless expatriates who have been caught out by the collapse in Dubai’s once-booming property market.

Like many he bought a flat off-plan in what was a red-hot property market. Today he is trapped, his passport confiscated until he repays bank loans he used to invest in a property that may never exist. If his work dries up before he can clear his debts he will go to jail.

We met at a coffee shop in Dubai’s vast Mall of the Emirates. Around us were some of Britain’s most familiar high street names — Next, Debenhams, Virgin, Costa Coffee and Harvey Nichols. For now trade is still brisk. “I’m struggling to know what to do really,” he said.

Borrowing from family to supplement his savings, Ross, in his early thirties, moved with his family to Dubai from South London in late 2006, put down a £60,000 deposit and arranged a £30,000 loan to help to cover the initial instalments on a £350,000 two-bedroom apartment in the Dubai Sports City development.

“The plan was to let the place out to cover the loan and mortgage but it was scheduled for completion by the end of 2008 and they haven’t finished the ground floor yet,” he said. Without the apartment to boost the family’s income, the high cost of living forced them back to Britain. The debts became overwhelming in a city where non-payment is a criminal offence. Ross returned for some contract work but he was held on arrival at the airport by the police.

The Sports City developer, Middle East Development, told him that work on his property will restart before the end of the year but will take at least 18 months to complete without any further delays. Even if it were to meet this schedule it will be three years late.

Ross’s options are stark. He must keep working to pay off the bank, borrow from his family, leave Dubai illegally and lose the apartment or go to jail. “The worst-case scenario is that I have to lean on friends or family to get the money together. It’s that or jail — it’s a no-brainer really.” For now he is looking no further than Christmas, trying to decide whether to fly his wife and three children out to Dubai for the holiday.

He is far from alone. The handful of cars dumped by expatriates at the airport each week bear testament to that, and talk of a speculative property market gone sour.

The scale of overbuilding in Dubai, paid for by a phenomenal debt binge facilitated by British and international banks, is hard to conceive until you see it. The world’s tallest building, the 2,600ft Burj Tower, is due to open next month. Its spectral presence looms over the city, its pointed top a needle to the bubble.

On the road tunnel into Palm Jumeirah, the famous tree-shaped property development reclaimed from the sea, is a mural. It depicts Palm Jumeirah itself, the bigger Palm Jebel Ali and the gargantuan Palm Deira, as well as the other massive sea reclamation development The World. All are the responsibility of Dubai World’s real estate arm, Nakheel. Only one, Palm Jumeirah, on which houses were given to British footballers to help to lure ordinary investors, is all but complete.

A year ago Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktoum, the ruler of Dubai, began a fireworks display here so vast that it could be seen from space. This week one resident said that she had just knocked the annual rent on her Palm villa down by two thirds to a little more than £1,000 a month.

The other Palm projects and The World, despite the computer-generated images in the tourist brochures and websites showing green trees and completed houses, are a collection of imported rock and dredged sand on which building work has stopped.

Even more fanciful plans — for a massive seawater canal to be dug around the city to enable waterside properties in the desert hinterland, and another vast offshore island complex called The Universe, are no longer mentioned.

Work on dozens of new skyscrapers continues but building has slowed to a crawl on others. More than 40 per cent of newly built offices are already untenanted, and the available space is expected to double by 2011.

Thousands of the migrant labourers who were bussed in from their desert camps to build Dubai have left as the construction boom faltered. The investment bank UBS thinks that the population of Dubai is shrinking.

The borrowed money has not just gone on property. A state-of-the-art metro train system, operated by Serco, opened amid much fanfare in September at a cost of $7.6 billion. At 9.30am on a Thursday the station at Dubai airport’s cavernous Terminal 3 is empty. The train into the city, capable of carrying more than 640 people, has 21 on board.

Western expats who have been here for a decade or more are still well ahead on their investments even if, as some forecasts predict, house prices dip by 70 per cent from their peaks.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Sanjay M »

In an age of permanently higher unemployment rates, the aging boomers would lose out, unable to hold onto their jobs in the face of competition from younger rivals. Some would end up in involuntary retirement, regardless of whether they wished it or not.

I could see a large mass of angry, unemployed, impoverished, desperate old people emerging. But what would they really be able to do? Hold a riot in the streets with their walking canes and their strollers? They would be trod underfoot by society. This could happen in Japan and China, too.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by krisna »

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... TopStories
Of no intrinsic value, collateralized by nothing, it passes from hand to trusting hand the world over. More than half of the $923 billion's worth of currency in circulation is in the possession of foreigners.
The dollar is faith-based. There's nothing behind it but Congress.

But now the world is losing faith, as well it might. It's not that the dollar is overvalued—economists at Deutsche Bank estimate it's 20% too cheap against the euro. The problem lies with its management. The greenback is a glorious old brand that's looking more and more like General Motors.:((
Paper currencies are wasting assets. In time, they lose all their value. Persistent inflation at even seemingly trifling amounts adds up over the course of half a century. Before you know it, that bill in your wallet won't buy a pack of gum.
Anyway, starting in the early 1970s, American monetary policy came to resemble a game of tennis without the net. Relieved of the irksome inhibition of gold convertibility, the Fed could stop worrying about the French. To be sure, it still had Congress to answer to, and the financial markets, as well. But no more could foreigners come calling for the collateral behind the dollar, because there was none. The nets came down on Wall Street, too. As the idea took hold that the Fed could meet any serious crisis by carpeting the nation with dollar bills, bankers and brokers took more risks. New forms of business organization encouraged more borrowing. New inflationary vistas opened.
The lifespan of no monetary system since 1880 has been more than 30 or 40 years, including that of my beloved classical gold standard, which perished in 1914. The pure paper dollar regime has been a long time dying.
A proper gold standard promotes balance in the financial and commercial affairs of participating nations. The pure paper system promotes and perpetuates imbalances. Not since 1976 has this country consumed less than it produced (as measured by the international trade balance): a deficit of 32 years and counting.
Why has the shortfall persisted for so long? Because the U.S., uniquely, is allowed to pay its bills in the currency that only it may lawfully print. We send it west, to the central banks of our Asian creditors. And they, obligingly, turn right around and invest the dollars in America's own securities. It's as if the money never left home. Stop to ask yourself, American reader: Is any other nation on earth so blessed as we?

There is, however, a rub. The Asian central banks do not acquire their dollars with nothing. Rather, they buy them with the currency that they themselves print. Some of this money they manage to sweep under the rug, or "sterilize," but a good bit of it enters the local payment stream, where it finances today's rowdy Asian bull markets.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by shyam »

shyamd wrote:Municipalty's are technically broke and were only saved by the stimulus package. Municipalty's have borrowed more than they can repay., they can't meet pension liabilities which are estimated to be around a trillion by Moody's. A lot of their debts will be maturing between 2010-17 and they will be awash with defaults. Tax revenues are declining. The prediction is that, these Muni bonds will land in trouble next year (I hear some of the big insurance co's are getting out of the muni bond market while ordinary folk are parking their money there under the belief that FDIC will save them), FDIC(they are insuring more than they can actually pay off, a bit like AIG) may not be able to save them.
Why should it be so big a problem when there exists the real almighty - Federal Reserve. These munis/countys/states can issue new bonds to pay off the old ones and Federal Reserve can purchase those bonds with newly printed money. I too start thinking that the whole D&G is misplaced :wink:
shyam
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by shyam »

prad wrote:finally, some good news after 2 years......i'm going out tonight gettin a drink or two and then getting laid. seriously, after looking at 200k+ job losses for 16 months, i am ready for this.
I think you should regularly get laid when things are bad. Atleast you will be able to provide job for some people. :twisted:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Nandu »

Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Why should it be so big a problem when there exists the real almighty - Federal Reserve. These munis/countys/states can issue new bonds to pay off the old ones and Federal Reserve can purchase those bonds with newly printed money. I too start thinking that the whole D&G is misplaced
shyam bhai,
I too found myself slipping into the green shoots camp from the D&G one following the stellar employment numbers BLS released like a few days back. Ever wonder how unemp rate falls when new job losses are still positive? I'll tell ya - by decreasing the labor pool size, which by definition doesn't include discouraged workers - those looking for jobs for 27+ weeks. Quaint, no?

Anyway, here's what Ilargi writes on the highly rated automatic earth blog as advice for us impatient D&G patients
[a]good friend said that, in his view, things -referring to the credit collapse- are developing very slowly. I replied that they are not, that it's just his viewpoint that makes him see it that way. If and when you follow a development as closely as we do, that is, you read extensively about it on a daily basis, you risk having your view distorted.
Funny how that works, eh? Moi keeps asking myself when my little one will grow up as she grows up and suddenly, I look back and like "wow, how time flies!". Time ka sense kabhi kabhi warped ho jata hai. Jai Ho.
US unemployment, no matter how you measure it, U3, U6 or SGS, has gone up about 100% in the last 20 months, and 60% in the past year alone. And if you call that slow, than what is fast? You'd have to get to a speed that would be hindered simply by practical reasons. To lose jobs any faster than this you'd need something like government ordered mass closings, or a bank holiday or something. In other words, you’d have to do the exact opposite of what the US government does, which is to keep anything open that is broke. And that, more than anything, should make you sit and think. These unemployment numbers are here despite everything the government tries.

People like my friend and I do have the tendency to want to see it go faster, in order to have our fears, our ideas confirmed. We know it’s inevitable, so let's have it already, that sort of thing. That's not the same as cheerleading though. We're simply so focused on the topic that our perception of time gets warped. There's nothing slow about the development of US unemployment.
That's fast indeed. Close to the practical limit given that the gubmint, major banks, corpos, janta, everybody in short - have a vested interest in keeping status quo and pretending all is well and under control.
That choice is not hard to explain. It keeps up appearances. It keeps banks alive. It keeps people in their homes and out of bankruptcy. And most importantly, it keeps them believing in magic for a while longer.
Re the credit crisis that is far from over and will get worse before it gets better:
There's also nothing slow about the collapse of available credit in the US, another area of miscomprehension. Even if that's apparently hard to understand, borrowing money from a bank is not the same as borrowing money from yourself. Which is what you do when you sign up for a great looking 3.5% down mortgage covered by the FHA, a government agency. Or, if you want to make it a notch or two worse, if you’re not the one getting the loan, it's your neighbor who borrows your money to buy a home (s)he in all likelihood (just look at the stats) will default on a mere few years down the line, leaving you with any losses (s)he can't pay.
...
Credit, defined the way we used to define it, is gone. We throw TARP funds and FHA loans at the problem, and make people think they are the same sort of credit they have always known, that nothing has changed, just a minor bump in the road. But that same sort of credit will not return for a very long time, if ever. Both lenders and borrowers are profoundly broke, and they can neither lend nor borrow the way they used to. The system now runs on your money. Which you don't have.
Scary stuff, mamu.... The Automatic Earth is one of a few consistently high quality D&G blawgs out there. Recommended reads everytime, IMO. But needs kaleja to read and digest.

Hari Om.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by ramana »

Hari Seldon wrote:
Hari, GD and Katare, I realised today that less developed economies have revolutions and wars to change their societies. Modern economies have massive recessions. The unfortunate have both.
Ramana garu, while general, am not sure if the above observation would be universal - several counterexamples come to mind. The 30s Germany was quite developed in economic terms - they did endure a severe recession and that contributed in no small measure to war.


IMHO, war is but economics by other means. A world rife with excess capacity (as now) threatens the profit base of elites everywhere. The wealth and asset base of the said elites are also similarly threatened. The elites in different countries will then seek to remove the excess capacity through a variety of means - regulation, tariff barriers n protectionism, non-tariff barriers such as labor and environmental standards and finally, when all else fails, in an orgy of destructive creation (with apologies to Josef Schumpeter) via war.

Of course the dev of WMD since WWII has since complicated the simple certainties of war, so am guessing a trade war and the division of the world into politico-military trading blocs is a distinct possibility.
I believe Germany is in the unfortunate category. They had both: two wars (WWI & II) and depression. Their whole society got changed in these events.

I agree with the other bolded statements. In particular I think its possible in future to see large agglomerations of people sort of the tribal civilizations Joel Kotkin wrote about.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

An alleged parody about BLS unemp statistics... :lol:

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ulu3SCAmeBA&co ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ulu3SCAmeBA&co ... edded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by shyamd »

Banks face windfall tax
Robert Peston | 16:38 UK time, Sunday, 6 December 2009

Comments (25)

The Treasury is preparing to levy a windfall tax or super tax on British based banks, which could be announced as soon as Wednesday in the pre-budget report and would raise considerably more than £1bn a year for two or three years.

It is not 100 per cent certain that such a tax will be announced, because there are formidable practical obstacles.

But if it is imposed, it won't just apply to UK banks such as Barclays, HSBC and Royal Bank of Scotland. The British arms of overseas firms, such as Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and Deutsche Bank, would also be liable.

However several ministers and officials have told me that the goverment is determined to extract revenue from banks for taxpayers and simultaneously prevent the banks from awarding substantial bonuses to their employees.

"It is a matter of justice" said one minister. "Investment banks are making exceptional profits as a result of the intervention of government and the Bank of England to limit the economic damage from the mess caused by those very same banks. So it would be outrageous if they paid those profits to employees and bonuses. We are determined to
prevent that".

One route being considered is to levy a super-tax on bankers who receive bonuses over a certain low level. Another is to massively increase the employers' National Insurance charge on banks that pay big bonuses, or to tax the profits of investment banks directly.

Whatever tax is finally chosen and announced (if any) would not last longer than two or three years.

The Treasury believes that the City of London would not lose massive numbers of employees or business to rival financial centres if a super tax lasted just a few years.

However it fears there would be serious damage to Britain's financial services industry if banks or bankers based in the UK were perceived to pay much more tax than those elsewhere.

There are many practical difficulties with imposing a super-tax, not least of which is skirting European Union prohibitions on taxation that discriminates against individual companies.

But probably the biggest obstacle to such a windfall tax or super tax on the banks is that the Treasury does not want to be extracting precious cash from banks at a time when they need to strengthen themselves by accumulating capital as a buffer against future losses.

"We can't impose a tax that weakens banks capital" said a member of the government. "Anything we do must be neutral in respect of their capital resources".

That said, the banks are more-or-less being coerced by the authorities into paying out their bonuses in shares, because this actually creates capital for banks.

So if there was a super tax on bonuses awarded in shares, that would not erode banks' capital resources.

Even the Chairman of the Financial Services Authority, Lord Turner, has pointed out that it looks unfair to many that banks are planning to pay out big bonuses on the back for profits that are the exceptional consequence of evasive action taken by the Government and the Bank of England to limit the depth of the recession suffered by
the UK.

The argument runs that reckless lending and investing by the banks precipitated the financial crisis of 2007 and 2008 which was an important cause of the recession.

And not only have banks being bailed out by taxpayers to the tune of £850bn - in the form of loans, guarantees, insurance and investment - but they have also seen their profits artificially boosted by the indirect consequences of the slashing of interest rates and the creation of £200bn of new money.

For example, big companies have paid off old debt and taken on new debt to take advantage of the massively reduced interest rates - thus generating big fees for investment banks.

Also, the sharp falls in the dollar and sterling which the Bank of England and US Federal Reserve have engineered to an extent have created massive trading and hedging opportunities for banks.

"The fact is that we have gifted vast profits to the banks as a result of our actions" said a minister. "If they were using those profits simply to strengthen themselves that would be okay. But what we can't accept, and what society can't accept, is that they are using those profits to pay enormous bonuses".

In the longer term, the Prime Minister and Chancellor want a permanent levy on banks transactions, a so-called Tobin tax. However they recognise that it would be devastating for the City if such a tax was imposed unilaterally by the UK, so the Treasury is preparing a paper which it will use as the basis for trying to secure agreement from the G20 leading economies for such a tax.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by shyam »

Hari Seldon wrote:shyam bhai,
I too found myself slipping into the green shoots camp from the D&G one following the stellar employment numbers BLS released like a few days back. Ever wonder how unemp rate falls when new job losses are still positive? I'll tell ya - by decreasing the labor pool size, which by definition doesn't include discouraged workers - those looking for jobs for 27+ weeks. Quaint, no?

Anyway, here's what Ilargi writes on the highly rated automatic earth blog as advice for us impatient D&G patients
Hari-garu, when I say the D&G is misplaced, that doesn't mean that there won't be unemployment or things are going to be easy. Entities that are losing money will be replenished by printed money by the almighty Federal Reserve. Federal Reserve is getting in everywhere to resecue others. Look at the following quote from the automatic earth blog you quoted.
The taxpayer underwrites 95% of all new mortgages, while the Federal Reserve has bought up even more in mortgage-backed securities.
Why on earth should Federal Reserve buy mortgage backed securities? I would say that the derivatives built based on those securities are now 100% secure. It is not necessarily backed by tax payers but by newly printed money. This type of almighty bail out will go on, but certainly they won't act as quickly just to ensure that world doesn't start suspecting almighty.

I think this can continue for a long time as long as the world accepts dollar. They will accept that as long as oil is traded in dollar. Will Arab countries say that they should move away from dollar? No way. It will destroy the comfort huge dollar reserves provide them. Why should they object to Federal Reserve printing money as long as that is to bail out US economy so that oil consumption and oil prices are kept high?
Last edited by shyam on 07 Dec 2009 01:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by shyam »

Nandu wrote:What Kashkari is up to, now.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02016.html
I think the same fate awaits Sri Vikram Pandit too... :mrgreen:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by shyamd »

shyam wrote: Why should it be so big a problem when there exists the real almighty - Federal Reserve. These munis/countys/states can issue new bonds to pay off the old ones and Federal Reserve can purchase those bonds with newly printed money. I too start thinking that the whole D&G is misplaced :wink:
Well, the FDIC was created after the crisis in the 30's. The prediction is that the fed will be again too late again and billions short this time. Lets see how it plays out
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^Shyam,

Let's agree to agree on this one. For all our sakes, lez hope the Fed reserve can continue this game of printing money forever.

Caution is also called for however as after the tech bubble bust in 2001, Greenspan's new easy money scheme led to housing bubble that lasted all of 7 yrs only. Why, I wonder. Why couldn't it also go on forever?

The example of WWI is also pertinent. SOmetimes crashes (and wars) happen because events overtake actors. Nobody really wanted war in WWI but ended up fighting one anyway. Similarly nobody (including you and me) wants an ekhanomic crash but fear is it may come about anyway.

In any case, let us hope the USD continues to hold firm for another decade plus at least by which time Dilli is at least somewhat economically, politically, technologically and socially on a stronger wicket than it is now. Enough to weather the coming storms.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Neshant »

From the ongoing inflation vs deflation debate.

From an inflationist John Williams from Shadow stats :

Part II of IV :
http://www.kingworldnews.com/kingworldn ... 4:2009.mp3
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Should this go here?
Higher ed spending in amrika
http://chronicle.com/article/Interactiv ... _medium=en
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Katare »

Administration to slash bailout cost estimate
The Obama administration will lose $200 billion less than expected from the federal bailout program and is looking at using part of the savings to fund new job creation efforts.
A Treasury official said that the administration now believes the cost of the financial rescue program will be at least $200 billion below the $341 billion estimate it made in August.

The administration had made the $341 billion estimate as part of its midsession budget review released in August.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Katare »

Random thoughts on posts in the last couple of pages of this thread........

I think like most previous bail-outs all over the world most govt will recover most of their money. Some would even make modest profit on their investments.

Retirement in US is a luxury that workers buy/earn by saving a part of their earning over life time. If certain babyboomers haven't saved enough they would simply not retire at 58 or 60, 65 or even at 70. Just by adding another average 5 years on working life most of the stress on Social security would go away.

Retirement doesn't mean people stop working and earning money. A lot of folks retire and still work, (just below the legal limit for claiming SS benefits) earn, spend and pay taxes. Only super savers get to say good bye to working and go on to golfing, Bingo and casino tours.

Dubai thing is again blown out of proportion here, its a temporary mismatch in cash flow which would get rectified once economic activity picks up again. There were a lot of excesses in Dubai but nothing that can't be corrected with a healthy dose of forced economic correction.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by ramana »

As if on cue Premen Addy writes in Pioneer.


LINK:
http://www.dailypioneer.com/221241/Cast ... -sand.html
OPED | Tuesday, December 8, 2009 | Email | Print |


Castles in Dubai’s sand

Premen Addy

As with New York’s Wall Street and the City of London, Dubai and its high life embody the unacceptable face of capitalism, where worst practice is sacred and best practice scorned. Behind the Dubai glitz, now losing shine, is the sordid reality of immigrant slave labour

The Dubai fantasy is a remake of the Biblical Sodom and Gomorrah, of the multiplying villainies of human nature held together by insensate greed, the manic pursuit of fast bucks. Full-time parasites, fading celebrities and and their escorts and minions from West and East wanted a piece of the action, convinced that the new Gulf El Dorado would be the Bacchanalian nirvana for which they craved. Opulent life-styles based on round-the-clock feasting, drinking and free-wheeling sex were an irresistible allure. What an anti-climax that the promised orgiastic experience should end in post-coital despair.

If they had read their Shelley these spirits of darkness would have known that a traveller from an antique land had encountered two vast and trunkless legs of stone in the desert, that near them, on the sand, half-sunk, lay a shattered visage with wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command. On the pedestal were these words: ‘My name is Ozymandias,/King of Kings:/Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair.’ Nothing remains. Round the decay/ Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare/The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

Dubai World’s financial collapse encapsulates Pharaonic conceit without the grandeur and folly of epic proportions. For several years and months the scatophagous British tabloids, and even the broadsheets, never shy of netting a salacious yarn, were abuzz with tales of the Dubai miracle, of a lush tropical paradise carved out of a bleak landscape of sand and merciless sun, of skyscrapers that reached for the stars, of under-soil air conditioning for the convenience of the millions of the great, the good and the idle, all liberated from the curse of the work ethic, Protestant, Islamic, Hindu or heathen.

As with New York’s Wall Street and the City of London, Dubai and its world embody the unacceptable face of capitalism, where worst practice is sacred and best practice scorned. Behind the Dubai glitz is the sordid reality of immigrant slave labour. Thousands of the Subcontinent’s poor and others further afield — Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Indians, Filipinos and Thais have been drawn to the Gulf sheikdoms in expectation of gainful employment, of wages that would exceed those on offer at home. Many signed up for jobs through loan sharks. On arriving at their destinations, their passports were confiscated by their employers; their wages a parody from which they had to repay debt and a usurious rate of interest. As hewers of wood and drawers of water, their living quarters and food were in sync with their lowly status. Women answering advertisements for nurses and housekeepers were often forced into sequestered prostitution and concubinage.

Tales of the new Arabian nights rarely got (or get) the appropriate column inches in the international press or receive generous time on radio and television. However, there is no lack of space for sexual titillation and exotic derring-do. For instance, an English couple, clasped in a clinch that endangered the art in the solitude of the early morning beach, were hauled off to a police station by a bemused Dubai constable.

It made the headlines in British newspapers, with droves of the paparazzi flying out to take shots of the sinning pair, who turned out to be neither man nor wife, but having taken to their cups only too well, if not too wisely, found themselves in a one night stand, as such adventures are described.

Under the sharia’h the offending parts may have risked amputation, but with camel corp Whitehall mandarins in overdrive mercy subsumed justice and the chastened couple received an expulsion order from the wardens of paradise, returning to the regulated public comforts of the British capital.

And so to an older tale. It was the time of the first Gulf war, in the early 1990s, waged by President George HW Bush to eject the invading Iraqi forces from oil-rich Kuwait, ruled then and now by the al-Saba house. Like most Gulf monarchies, the family possessed sumptuous mansions in the West, not least in the favoured watering hole of London. The lady of the al-Saba household had hired an Indian maid whom she whipped and humiliated at will. One day the tormented soul escaped and flagged down a passing taxi. Speaking no English, but with the aid of imaginative signs and gestures, she explained her plight. The sympathetic driver took her to the Indian High Commission, whose staff promptly sent her back to her Kuwaiti mistress in the interest of the Indo-Arab cause. The woman suffered further punishment, was chained to the floor like a dog. A neighbouring Sri Lankan domestic, plucking up courage, reported the matter to the nearest police station. The Detective Inspector in charge was soon knocking at the al-Saba door but, receiving no response, broke it open and released the captive.

Recalling this from memory, the woman was given shelter by the anti-slavery society in London and legal proceedings were set in motion. Delaying tactics from the al-Sabas took the case from court to court. Eventually the case reached the High Court with a judge and jury in place. The result was a triumph for British justice. The judge awarded the complainant some £ 325,000 in compensation, which included the accumulated interest arising from al-Saba procrastination.

When the verdict was announced the humble Indian domestic turned to the judge and jury with a respectful Namaskar. For Indians it was surely a moment of the deepest shame.

Shame is what the public at large in Britain is experiencing with the revelations emerging at the public inquiry into former British Prime Minister Tony Blair’s role in former US President George W Bush’s Iraq war. When Mr Blair’s name was put forward for the European presidency it was contemptuously cast aside by France and Germany and other members of the EU for the little known Belgian Premier, the truest judgement on the reputation of the former British Prime Minister.

Meanwhile, the inquiry goes on. Whether it ends in a stich-up of anodyne platitudes only time will show.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Premen Addy (and one Happymon Jacob) are always entertaining writers. Good one, there.

Meanwhile, same story in new bottle getting repeated here....
Is China’s Capital Spending Bubble About to Deflate?
a research report by Pivot Capital Management, which makes a compelling case that the capital spending bubble in China has reached its limits. This is important in a narrow sense, since capital investment is now the largest component of Chinese growth, and in its broader ramifications, since China is seen as a major contributor to growth expectations around the world.

{Yawn. Havn't we heard that story 1000 times before. Wake me up when the PLA ekhanomy crashes so visibly that even the CPC can't spin it away as 'the spontaneous joy of the cheeni masses marching towards harmony...blah blah'}
...
The article argues that China’s investment boom was part of the global credit mania, and unlike real estate and private equity, has not deflated in a meaningful way. While all economies that developed rapidly in the 20th century showed high investment relative to GDP, China’s level is well above historical precedents.
{Yawn again. Thanks to the valiant efforts of Sri Prasant, am 400% convinced that PRC crashing is against the laws of G_d and nature and has a negative probability.}
...
Similarly, the expansion of debt is also proving less effective in generating GDP growth. From 2000 to 2008, it required $1.5 in debt to produce $1 of GDP. By contrast, credit efficiency in the US became poor right before our bubble imploded, with it taking $4 of credit to produce $1 of GDP. China now is even less efficient than the US in 208, with it now taking $7 of credit to yield $1 of GDP increase.

The article shreds the usual arguments as to why China can nevertheless continue spending at rapid clip. For instance, the notion that China has a low government debt to GDP ratio is a canard once you factor in liabilities of local governments. bonds guaranteed by the Ministry of Finance and the central bank as part of the 2003 bank bailout, explicit guarantees of the debt of the three “policy banks” and other off balance sheet liabilities. Adding them yields a public debt to GDP ratio of 62%, comparable to most Western European nations. It also debunks the idea that China can spend its reserves, since its reserves are not high in relationship to its liabilities.

{Now thisis surely old stuff, I recall posting this somewhere a moon or 2 ago.}

The report continues with a litany of troubling data: that China has few areas with any scope for manufacturing capacity addition, and that the idea that China can urbanize further is also greatly exaggerated (China defines “urban” as a population density of 1,500 per KM, so Houston and Brisbane would not count).
Read it all, if you wanna.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by kittoo »

ramana wrote:As if on cue Premen Addy writes in Pioneer.
LINK:
http://www.dailypioneer.com/221241/Cast ... -sand.html
OPED | Tuesday, December 8, 2009 | Email | Print |
Castles in Dubai’s sand
And so to an older....For Indians it was surely a moment of the deepest shame.
A moment of shame indeed. What was done by Indian embassy was inhuman and shameful, not no mention an exact opposite of what Indian culture stands for.
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