Indian Military Aviation

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 26 Nov 2009 10:22

Rahul, maybe I am missing something here, but shiv's email from his friend does state that Indians did all the conversion of documents from Russian to English, and that Russia itself didn't have the complete set of documents for mig-21. So they use these english versions( translated by IAF) for teaching new guys.

I am pretty sure IAF has updated the original Russian documents with their learnings too

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Nov 2009 10:31

Wonder if IAF will have a difficult time penetrating PAF IADS when they acquire the S-300 clones of HQ-9/FT-2000 ?

Here is a nice article on these SAM's
CPMIEC HQ-9 / HHQ-9 / FD-2000 / FT-2000Self Propelled Surface to Air Missile System

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 29 Nov 2009 16:57

Surya Kirans still an item?

IAF Surya Kiran to perform in Malaysia Jan. 18

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 30 Nov 2009 10:50

Austin wrote:Wonder if IAF will have a difficult time penetrating PAF IADS when they acquire the S-300 clones of HQ-9/FT-2000 ?

Here is a nice article on these SAM's
CPMIEC HQ-9 / HHQ-9 / FD-2000 / FT-2000Self Propelled Surface to Air Missile System

My guess is thats where the airlaunched Brahmos comes in although perhaps even a KH-31P would do.

CM.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 30 Nov 2009 18:22

Indigenous Development of Helicopters

HAL has so far delivered 22 ALHs to Indian Air Force (IAF) and 40 to Army. Contracts for supply of 159 ALHs to Army and IAF were signed in December 2007. These Helicopters are planned to be delivered during 2009-2016.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 30 Nov 2009 23:08

Talking about HAL and LCh, any firm ideas on when the first flight of the LCH is scheduled.. Kept hearing a lot of engine activity in HAL today... Missed the Tejas Trainer flight due to a service call

...

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Dec 2009 03:06

Bala Vignesh wrote:Talking about HAL and LCh, any firm ideas on when the first flight of the LCH is scheduled.. Kept hearing a lot of engine activity in HAL today... Missed the Tejas Trainer flight due to a service call ...

soon enough..Shiv Aroor's blog and some other reports said that it would take place sometime in the next 2 weeks, if all goes well, as per HAL.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Dec 2009 03:24

What ever happened to the Ecuadorian Dhruv incident?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 01 Dec 2009 05:26

NRao wrote:What ever happened to the Ecuadorian Dhruv incident?

Resloved

The Dhruv's are back up in the air flying out in Ecuador.. I think I posted some pics earlier in this thread from Livefist.. Hope it helps ~ Cheers!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Dec 2009 23:35

From Orbat.Com:

Indian Air Force Sukhoi-30 wings of two squadrons each will ultimately be based at Ounee (first Su-30 base); Bareilley (second base); Tezpur (third base, four aircraft were sent as a first increment this year); Halwara (Punjab); Jodhpur; and Chabbua (Assam). This means four squadrons are slated for the China border

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 03 Dec 2009 20:50

Advance Light Helicopter (Dhruv) sold to Ecuadorian Air Force by HAL crashed in Quito during a military parade injuring two of its pilots, recently. Ecuadorian Air Force have successfully carried out several missions on Dhruv Helicopters in their difficult terrains. As per the reported statements, it appears that the Helicopter may have been manoeuvred excessively. The built-in safety features ensured that both the Pilots walked away without any major injuries after crash landing.

HAL has assured the Ecuadorian Government that HAL will meet all the contractual obligations and are committed to provide full support required by Ecuadorian Air Force. There have been no indications that existing potential customers have viewed this accident as a setback on Dhruv Helicopters’ capabilities.

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Shri MM Pallam Raju in a written reply to Shri NR Govindarajar in Rajya Sabha today.

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=54950

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Dec 2009 16:11

Orange bird ( with some black thing fitted on its belly) buzzing around HAL from last 1 hour...any one else noticed it?

I saw it from a long distance away and couldnt make out clearly..looked like Lakshya PTA?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Dec 2009 16:58

sum wrote:Orange bird ( with some black thing fitted on its belly) buzzing around HAL from last 1 hour...any one else noticed it?

I saw it from a long distance away and couldnt make out clearly..looked like Lakshya PTA?

I only saw a couple of Kirans this afternoon - but was in the wrong golf course

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Dec 2009 17:18

shiv wrote:
sum wrote:Orange bird ( with some black thing fitted on its belly) buzzing around HAL from last 1 hour...any one else noticed it?

I saw it from a long distance away and couldnt make out clearly..looked like Lakshya PTA?
I only saw a couple of Kirans this afternoon - but was in the wrong golf course

It was the IJT. Saw it taking off yesterday towards the Whitefield side. Couple of kirans in tow along with it. Was standing at the Logica Site when they took off.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 04 Dec 2009 17:35

shiv wrote:
sum wrote:Orange bird ( with some black thing fitted on its belly) buzzing around HAL from last 1 hour...any one else noticed it?

I saw it from a long distance away and couldnt make out clearly..looked like Lakshya PTA?
I only saw a couple of Kirans this afternoon - but was in the wrong golf course

Had been to the kormangala passport office. It's a treat to IAF aircraft watchers. I saw 4 An-32's take off and what seemed like BAe Hawks here and there.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Dec 2009 17:56

rohitvats wrote: It was the IJT. Saw it taking off yesterday towards the Whitefield side. Couple of kirans in tow along with it. Was standing at the Logica Site when they took off.

Ah that explains the orange color as well as the sound of an aircraft doing a loop which I distinctly heard - but could not see from the ASC center golf course.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 04 Dec 2009 19:27

Brando wrote:
Why would an IAF pilot train in Bangladesh? is this done after getting commissioned into IAF?

With friends like Bangladesh ( & Pakistan & maybe China)

INDIA DOES NOT NEED ENEMIES

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 05 Dec 2009 01:09

Political push from Paris for Mirage-2000 upgrade.

Thales to bring down price by involving Indian industry.

French President, Nikolas Sarkozy, has thrown his weight behind the Rs 10,000 crore bid by French company, Thales, to upgrade the Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighter fleet. Sarkozy’s defence minister, Hervé Morin, in New Delhi for a day, made his pitch this morning to Defence Minister AK Antony, telling him that President Sarkozy is keen on signing the deal when he visits India early next year.

Addressing a press conference after his meetings in South Block, Morin revealed that he discussed outstanding procurement cases, including the Mirage-2000 upgrade, with his indian counterpart. Morin said: “We are hoping that some of the procurement cases that are under way between India and France are finalised by the time Sarcozy visits.”

Through two years of negotiations, French aerospace major, Thales, and the IAF have been unable to agree on a price for outfitting India’s 51 Mirage-2000s with new radars, avionics, electronic warfare systems and onboard computers, which will make the aircraft battle worthy for another 15 years. From an initial offer of Rs 13,500 crores ($2.9 billion), Thales came down to Rs 10,000 crores ($2.1 billion). But even that is exorbitant; the IAF has let it be known that, instead of spending Rs 196 crores ($41 million) on each Mirage-2000, it would prefer to buy brand new fighters.

That hard bargaining, it seems, is working. Thales is looking to reduce its price by using Indian suppliers for a significant share of work and components for the upgrade. The IAF now believes that a deal could be close. A top IAF official, who is close to the negotiations, told Business Standard on condition of anonymity, “Thales is climbing down from its high horse and we will meet them halfway. The French President has given his officials a diktat that the Mirage-2000 upgrade deal must be buttoned up this year.”

That urgency is fully endorsed by French officials. One highly placed French industrial source asks rhetorically, “If the upgrade deal is not finalised, what else is there for Sarkozy to sign in Delhi?”

So far, during negotiations, Thales has argued that if India insisted on a cheaper upgrade for the Mirage-2000 fleet, it should be prepared to upgrade fewer systems. If, for example, the IAF was willing to upgrade only the weapons systems, the cost would be considerably cheaper. But the IAF insisted on a full upgrade.

Now, with Thales looking to source from India, there could be rich pickings for Indian avionics manufacturers like Samtel Thales Avionics, the joint venture that NCR-based Samtel Display Systems has set up with Thales. Components developed in France by Thales, will be manufactured cheaply in Samtel Thales Avionics’ high-tech facility near Ghaziabad, allowing Thales to lower its bid significantly.

Puneet Kaura, Executive Director, Samtel Display Systems, confirmed to Business Standard that, “Samtel Thales Avionics is going to be a major partner in the Mirage-2000 upgrade. We have negotiated with Thales for doing a number of work packages in the upgrade. This will also benefit Thales in meeting the offset liabilities that will arise out of this deal.”

For IAF planners the participation of Indian companies, including Samtel Thales Avionics, is a welcome prospect since they would be able to maintain and repair the upgraded avionics in India. The Indian companies would also handle “obsolescence management”, which involves redesigning avionics cards that need upgrading.

Thales was already on track to build avionics systems in Samtel Thales Avionics for a variety of Indian aircraft. These include the technologically advanced TopSight-I, the Helmet Mounted Sight Display (HMD) that Indian Navy MiG-29K pilots will use while operating from aircraft carriers.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 05 Dec 2009 03:21

Vipul wrote:Political push from Paris for Mirage-2000 upgrade.

Thales to bring down price by involving Indian industry.

Through two years of negotiations, French aerospace major, Thales, and the IAF have been unable to agree on a price for outfitting India’s 51 Mirage-2000s with new radars, avionics, electronic warfare systems and onboard computers, which will make the aircraft battle worthy for another 15 years. From an initial offer of Rs 13,500 crores ($2.9 billion), Thales came down to Rs 10,000 crores ($2.1 billion). But even that is exorbitant; the IAF has let it be known that, instead of spending Rs 196 crores ($41 million) on each Mirage-2000, it would prefer to buy brand new fighters.

A top IAF official, who is close to the negotiations, told Business Standard on condition of anonymity, “Thales is climbing down from its high horse and we will meet them halfway.

So far, during negotiations, Thales has argued that if India insisted on a cheaper upgrade for the Mirage-2000 fleet, it should be prepared to upgrade fewer systems. If, for example, the IAF was willing to upgrade only the weapons systems, the cost would be considerably cheaper. But the IAF insisted on a full upgrade.

Now, with Thales looking to source from India, there could be rich pickings for Indian avionics manufacturers like Samtel Thales Avionics, the joint venture that NCR-based Samtel Display Systems has set up with Thales. Components developed in France by Thales, will be manufactured cheaply in Samtel Thales Avionics’ high-tech facility near Ghaziabad, allowing Thales to lower its bid significantly.

Puneet Kaura, Executive Director, Samtel Display Systems, confirmed to Business Standard that, “Samtel Thales Avionics is going to be a major partner in the Mirage-2000 upgrade. We have negotiated with Thales for doing a number of work packages in the upgrade. This will also benefit Thales in meeting the offset liabilities that will arise out of this deal.”

For IAF planners the participation of Indian companies, including Samtel Thales Avionics, is a welcome prospect since they would be able to maintain and repair the upgraded avionics in India. The Indian companies would also handle “obsolescence management”, which involves redesigning avionics cards that need upgrading.

Thales was already on track to build avionics systems in Samtel Thales Avionics for a variety of Indian aircraft. These include the technologically advanced TopSight-I, the Helmet Mounted Sight Display (HMD) that Indian Navy MiG-29K pilots will use while operating from aircraft carriers.

"we will meet them half way" comment is it figure of speech? or a hint at price by India meaning half of 41 mil $ which would be 20.5 mil$ per plane?

If this news is true then it becomes clear that only avionics and radar is to be changed, nothing mentioned about engine.

if we compare this with Mig 29 upgrade:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... de#p756993
Baldev wrote:
1 billion for upgrading 60 mig29 + 250 million for 120 rd33-3 engines with TOT
so this becomes 1.25 billion for 60 mig29 upgrade

or 20.83 million for each mig29 upgrade with 2 new rd33-3 engines on each aircraft

^^
So even if we just take Radar + Engines only for 20.83 million$ per Mig 29 plane, while m2k has one engine only even that is not being changed and in Mig 29 we get 2 new engines per plane. Still M2k deal seems like a rip off!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Dec 2009 14:17

I am wondering why cant we push ALH for export to Russia.

They are developing the Ka-60 which is in the same category as Dhruv , isnt this a good opportunity for us to push for Dhruv export to Russia as they need 400 of these choppers in those category ?

Ka-60

In a small way but time to change the imbalance

Niraj_D · Post by **Niraj_D** » 05 Dec 2009 17:30

Austin wrote:I am wondering why cant we push ALH for export to Russia.

They are developing the Ka-60 which is in the same category as Dhruv , isnt this a good opportunity for us to push for Dhruv export to Russia as they need 400 of these choppers in those category ?

Ka-60

In a small way but time to change the imbalance

This is great option. Apart from revenue, most importantly HAL will gain real experience of mass production. Will require heavy diplomatic negotiating pressure from India for sure...

There are minor physical difference between both helicopters-

Ka-60
# Crew: Two
# Capacity: Up to 16 infantry troops or 6 stretchers
# Length: 15.60 m (51 ft 2 in)
# Max takeoff weight: 6,750 kg (14,850 lb)
# Maximum speed: 300 km/h (162 knots, 185 mph)

ALH Dhruv
# Crew: 1 or 2 pilots
# Capacity: 4-12 passengers
# Length: 15.87 m (52 ft 0.8 in)
# Max takeoff weight: 5,500 kg (12,125 lb)
# Maximum speed: 280 km/h (175 mph, 150 kn)

But we can tailor according to their requirements, may be ALH Dhruv Rus....

what say?

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 05 Dec 2009 19:20

Austin wrote:I am wondering why cant we push ALH for export to Russia.

They are developing the Ka-60 which is in the same category as Dhruv , isnt this a good opportunity for us to push for Dhruv export to Russia as they need 400 of these choppers in those category ?

Ka-60

In a small way but time to change the imbalance

IIRC, Russia has a policy where it's defence forces do not import any weapon system, especially when there is a local product under development or in production. The same reason was quoted for the Russian army not considering the Brahmos.

Ruskies did import UAVs from Israel, that was unprecedented for the Russians. The country did not produce equivalent class of UAV so they had to import it. Same goes for the Mistral class being under consideration. So I am not sure about the Kamovs being usurped by the Dhruvs, correct me if I am wrong. But then again, diplomacy if played right can make anything happen

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Dec 2009 21:06

Russia do import stuff from France , Israel where required so I see no reason why we cant push Dhruv . Just depends if our babus and politician can put this to Russi without hurting their ego.

Dhruv is one export ready product and perhaps we can export to Russia as part of some offset arrangement in some big defence deal.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 05 Dec 2009 21:39

MoD bid to replace Cheetah helicopters may finally take off

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 05 Dec 2009 21:42

Austin wrote:I am wondering why cant we push ALH for export to Russia.

They are developing the Ka-60 which is in the same category as Dhruv , isnt this a good opportunity for us to push for Dhruv export to Russia as they need 400 of these choppers in those category ?

Ka-60

In a small way but time to change the imbalance

AFAIK, we did try to push Dhruv during the negotiation for acquiring 80 Mi-17s, didn't get anywhere.

KrishnaMu · Post by **KrishnaMu** » 05 Dec 2009 22:02

Indian airforce's dazzling helicopter display - Dhruv synchronised dancing.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Dec 2009 23:42

Juggi G wrote:MoD bid to replace Cheetah helicopters may finally take off

If the Dhruv can operate in Siachen, I fail to see why the Cheetah's have to be replaced by foreign birds.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 06 Dec 2009 00:04

20 Years of MiG Disasters
The Statesman / Indo-Asian News Service

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Dec 2009 00:23

Juggi G wrote:20 Years of MiG Disasters
The Statesman / Indo-Asian News Service

A quote from the article

"In the last two decades (since April 1989 and up to 26 November, 2009), 265 MiG fighter aircraft of the IAF have crashed. A total of 96 service personnel and 44 civilians were killed in these cases," Mr Antony told the parliament...

And he's supposed to be the defense minister. The IAF has operated 5 different types of "MiG Fighter aircraft". So which ones is he talking about? Why club all of them together and give any MiG-XX a bad name?

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 06 Dec 2009 01:27

Ajai is reporting that Mirage upgradation deal is likely to be clinched at $1.8 billion.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Dec 2009 06:51

$1.8 billion - still, what $35 mil per AC?

What does that buy for the IAF? Even 25-30 Rafales should be better?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Dec 2009 07:10

nachiket wrote:
Juggi G wrote:MoD bid to replace Cheetah helicopters may finally take off
If the Dhruv can operate in Siachen, I fail to see why the Cheetah's have to be replaced by foreign birds.

because IAF still needs small single engined birds for various roles.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Dec 2009 07:29

Are we getting any ToT for the 1.8bil?

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 06 Dec 2009 07:36

RoyG wrote:Are we getting any ToT for the 1.8bil?

I was going to ask the same. Maybe the high price is a cover to sneak in, in a chankian way some other "covert" ToT/Consultancy for some nagging problem we may be having in engine tech/flight tests etc.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 07 Dec 2009 10:37

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/12/ ... delhi.html

instead of spending Rs 196 crores (US $41 million) on each Mirage-2000, it would prefer to buy brand new fighters.

we can get new sukhoi 30 mki for the same price,why go for a upgrade on a old airframe?

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 07 Dec 2009 19:55

IAF wants EJ200 engines for Tejas, but..

http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/200 ... s-but.html

although american engine is cheaper but the cost difference between two engine lies in this

cost of F414 + cost of redesign of fuselage + further delay= cost of EJ2000

and TOT is another issue

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 07 Dec 2009 22:46

Hi....Does anybody know who is supplying avionics for NAL Saras or they have been developed indigenously ??

Thanks

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 07 Dec 2009 23:32

NRao wrote:$1.8 billion - still, what $35 mil per AC?

What does that buy for the IAF? Even 25-30 Rafales should be better?

Bloody robbery!

I wouldn’t spend no more than $10-12mil on upgrades that doesn’t require changing engines.

Just get a replacement deal----> tell French's to take them M2Ks with $1.8 billion and give us 50 Rafales

Niraj_D · Post by **Niraj_D** » 08 Dec 2009 15:44

TGW

How will China react to the fresh agreement made in between the Government of Nepal and India that allows the Southern neighbor, China’s arch rival, to construct an Air Base for the Indian Air Force in Surkhet?

The Jana Disha Daily, the Maoists’ Party mouth piece dated December 7, 2009, claims that in the consultative meeting held between the representatives of the Government of India and Nepal, December 4-7, 2009, Kathmandu, the Nepali side has provided a clear go-ahead signal to India to construct the Air-Strip for the Indian Air Force.

It was earlier reported that India has already built air-strips deep inside Bhutan and an air-strip in Surkhet of Nepal will serve the Indian security interests in a much more enhanced manner, say experts. As per the agreement the government of Nepal will have to allocate some ten hectares of lands in the area to construct the Air Strip.

It was reported that during the visit of Nepal’s Defense Minister Bidya Devi Bhandari to New Delhi in July 2009, Mrs. Bhandari had requested India to construct the Air-Strip for Nepal Army.

“The very idea of constructing an air belt in Surkhet is basically not a Nepali brain. Instead, it is the Indian mind to build an air strip right inside Nepal from where the Indian regime, should an imaginary war with China becomes a reality by 2012 as claimed by Bharat Burma, an Indian defense analyst, could pounce upon Tibet that adjoins the Nepalese border”, claim Nepal’s analysts.

Surkhet is close to the tri-junction, Kalapani, where China meets India in Nepali territory. Nepal’s defense analysts claim that the Indian Army can strike the heartland in Tibet as and when India and China go to war. How China reacts to this "benevolent" Nepal, gesture made in favor of India will have to be watched.

http://www.telegraphnepal.com

This might give us some tactical advantage in any possible conflict.
How will China react to this? Will see in Chinadaily very soon...

Any guesses before that?

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 08 Dec 2009 21:59

WAC Commanders focus on ‘people first Mission Always’