Indian Army History Thread

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby KiranM » 28 Jul 2009 20:38

^^^ I would like to expand on the above by saying, military power is shaped by politico-strategic will. India has great potential to be a big military power. But this is tied down by political strings, most of the time for the bad.

Regards,
Kiran

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby ramana » 10 Oct 2009 04:18

I belive a very important article to understand the 1962 debacle


LINK

Coping with rising China
K. Subrahmanyam

There is no reason to assume that India’s rapidly rising neighbour, set to become the world’s largest economy in the next two decades, will not play the normal game of nations. But the current hawkishness and jingoism in sections of the media and strategic circles in India is without basis and uncalled for, argues a veteran strategic affairs specialist.

In the last few weeks a number of accounts have appeared in our media of ‘incidents’ on the Indo-China Line of Actual Control (LoAC) that portrayed China as exerting military pressure on India. There were also reports of China objecting to the Asian Development Bank loan to a development project in Arunachal Pradesh on the ground that it is a disputed territory and issuing stapled instead of stamped visas for travellers, of Kashmiri residence to China.

Very hawkish articles appeared in the media on both sides. In China, an analyst repeated the argument of the 1960s that India cannot stay united. In India, the ghosts of 1962 were resurrected and there were predictions that there was likely to be a Chinese attack on India by 2012. The retiring Naval Chief’s sober assessment that militarily India is not in a position to catch up with China on equality of forces and equipment in the conventional sense and therefore India should consider technological solutions to cope up with, and not confront a rising China, was misinterpreted as defeatist sentiment in certain media and strategic circles.

It is no doubt significant that while all this tension generation is in the media of the two countries the two governments have sought to reduce the tension and discourage the hype in the media. Some political parties, ex-service officers, and strategists have drawn totally inapt comparisons with 1962. I am one of the few surviving senior citizen civil servants who were in the Ministry of Defence at that time. I functioned as a member of the Joint Intelligence Committee from November 1962 till December 1964.

Year 2009 is not 1962. In 1962, China was isolated from the international system. It was conducting a ‘Hate America’ campaign annually and also denouncing the Soviet leadership as revisionists and capitalist roaders. The Chinese attack on India was launched to coincide with the Cuban missile crisis to make sure that the two superpowers would be preoccupied with each other and not be able to apply pressure on China. The Chinese also promptly withdrew from the Arunachal Pradesh territory they occupied back to the McMahon line.

At that time under the advice of American Ambassador J.K. Galbraith the Indian leadership did not use the Air Force for fear of superior Chinese retaliatory capability. The truth, which we did not know at that time, was that the Chinese Air Force was totally grounded as the Soviets had denied them spares and aviation fuel — not because of the attack on India but because of the ongoing ideological dispute. The debacle in Sela-Bomdila happened not because the Indian Army was outgunned and outmanned but because the divisional commander did not fight and attempted to withdraw from a well entrenched position due to sheer panic. There are books on the ‘unfought war’ by people who were there at that time. Since then the Indian Army has faced the Chinese under valiant leadership and acquitted itself very creditably.

China of today is not the Maoist country that argued that power grew out of the barrel of a gun and that even if 300 million Chinese perished in a nuclear war 300 million would survive to build a glorious civilisation. Times have changed since the ideology of countryside surrounding the cities was advanced during the Cultural Revolution. ‘Dig tunnels deep and store grain everywhere’ was the Maoist slogan in preparation for a nuclear war. China of the 1960s was an isolated country and today it is one of the largest trading nations of the world. Those who build skyscrapers and Three Gorges dam will not be thinking of war in the same way Mao did. China is energy-import dependent and its energy transit lanes through the Indian Ocean and Malacca Straits are very vulnerable

China has a much greater stake in Taiwan than it has in Arunachal Pradesh, which it totally vacated after occupying large sections of it in 1962. It has not risked a war on Taiwan over the last 60 years. It has been extraordinarily patient about it since it understands the risks involved in using force on Taiwan recovery. There was a time (the whole of the 1950s and 1960s) when U.S. aircraft and warships would violate Chinese airspace and Chinese territorial waters regularly. China issued the relevant 437th and 593rd serious warnings to the United States. That continued until it allied itself with the U.S. in 1971 faced with the perceived Soviet nuclear threat. Ideology did not stand in the way.

There are valuable lessons for India in China’s patience and purposive response, untrammelled by ideological baggage or the overburden of memory. When Henry Kissinger started his secret trip to make up with Beijing, he told the doubters that the Chinese were pragmatists.

China is a rising power and is most likely to overtake the U.S. as the country with highest GDP in the next couple of decades. It wants to be the dominant power of Asia in the immediate future and that will mean an unequal relationship with other major Asian powers. The only nation that is perceived to have the potential to challenge China, not in the short run but over the longer period, is India — with a comparable population, a similar civilisational heritage, and the advantage of a younger age profile. While a meaningful challenge from India to China is not likely to come for at least a couple decades, India is in a position to play the role of a balancer in the ongoing rivalry between China and the U.S.
Chinese policies towards India have subtle elements of sophisticated coercion to attempt to prevent a closer partnership developing between India and the U.S. China may also have plans to shape a final settlement of the Tibetan issue on the passing of the present Dalai Lama. The pressure on Arunachal and procrastination in finalising the border may be a part of a long-term strategy to compel India to accept a post-Dalai Lama dispensation in Tibet and bring the matter to a closure.

China asserts that it will be rising peacefully. There is no disputing that peaceful rise is in its interest. But that does not preclude the normal practices in the game of nations of pressure, influence, and dominance — economically, politically and even militarily but without recourse to the actual use of force. That has happened all through history and there is no reason to assume that China will not practise the normal game of nations.

India has to learn to cope with this challenge without getting hysterical. Nor should it hamper in any way the growing trade relations between the two countries. There is, in fact, a good case to develop mutual dependencies in a globalised world, with due care to ensure that the dependency does not become unfavourably one-sided against our interest. The most effective way of doing it is to step up our economic growth to 10 per cent by exploiting all available favourable factors in the international economic and political system, as China is doing; develop rapidly our border infrastructure; augment our military capability without delays; and attempt to develop stakes for all major powers in our growth and security.

While doing all this, there is no need to indulge in jingoistic rhetoric. There can be firmness in dealing with the LoAC or other issues where there are attempts at exploiting unequal advantages in situations. India has arrived at a stage in international politics when it has to demonstrate maturity in playing the game of nations.

(The author, a retired civil servant, is an internationally known strategic affairs specialist and commentator.)


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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Yagnasri » 10 Oct 2009 17:47

great article

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Aditya G » 12 Oct 2009 23:27

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?262215

Into The Temple, With Boots On
Operation Bluestar was a bloody, avoidable desecration
Mark Tully


http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?262249

Ice Station Taurus
One armyman was the rock India built its Siachen castle on
Saikat Datta


PS: Could not read the articles before posting ... excuse if its some junk!

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby kancha » 14 Oct 2009 14:02

To add on to the Siachen Saga - Op Rajiv

23rd September 1987 is an important day in the history of Siachen when Pakistan’s No. 1 & No. 3 Commando Battalions of the Special Service Group (SSG), along with No 2 Northern Light Infantry (NLI) Battalion of the FCNA, attacked an Indian post, on the Northern shoulder of the Bilafond La pass. The post at an altitude of 19,000 feet, at the time of attack was occupied by only eight men. It was this section that successfully defeated an enemy brigade sized force, creating history of sorts in the annals of military warfare.

The attack developed a crescendo by 3.00 a.m. and suddenly there was a pause and I intercepted a message from Captain Rashid to some senior officer in the rear “We are waiting for two hours and the ropes have not fetched up yet, we will be day lighted. Cheema is dead and many are injured badly, please send reinforcements.” Their morale was low :twisted: and we knew that they would not pursue the attack any further till at least the following night.

“The kafirs have got hold of our radio frequencies and are monitoring them, all troops switch to alternate frequencies.” There was a pause and then Rashid resumes his conversation, “Sir, we are not carrying our alternate frequencies and all are teams have left the base.” After a while there was another conversation intercepted “Rashid has been killed and the reinforcements have not reached, tell these seniors to come forward and see for them selves. They are safe in their bunkers and care little for us. :lol: :lol: ” That was a good indicator, and we knew that the battle had been won. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby kancha » 14 Oct 2009 14:05

Aditya G wrote:
PS: Could not read the articles before posting ... excuse if its some junk!


The Siachen piece is a keeper ! In fact there are quite a few personal accounts of the Siachen Campaign to be found on the www, just like the one I have posted above.

Regarding Blue Star, sure it was a blot on our history as a nation, but one cannot say that the army was to blame. Heck, the army had no business being there in the first place had the politicos not messed it up. What you cannot discount is the sheer grit it must have taken for the jawans to go into the jaws of sure death - Anyone who has been to the Golden Temple would vouch for the fact that the central complex is a virtually impregnable fortress for purely infantry operations. Yet go in they did, and they died too. The desecration was not due to the fact that the army went in, the desecration was due to the fact that the situation was allowed to worsen to a stage where there was no alternative. And the desecrators were the 'thekedars' of the faith - Bhindrawale and Co.

Maj Gen Kuldeep Singh Brar has in fact written a book on the entire operation. A must read from purely military point of view - the extreme difficulties the soldiers faced, the fact that soldiers right from the Madras Regiment to even SFF guys laid down their lives, all the while taking care not to fire towards the sanctum sanctorum even as the terrorists did so with no such compulsions. I think Khushwant Singh also mentions about those days in his autobiography or some other writing, when he actually met Bhindranwale.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby kasthuri » 17 Oct 2009 07:43

I have been trying to get some information on the Kargil Martyr V. Murugan as his daughter is helping us in our home. So far I could find only one link about him: Remembering son of soil
It will be great if somebody here could give me more information about him so that we can help her better. Thanks.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby saptarishi » 17 Oct 2009 13:59

keep it up,nice job

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Neela » 10 Nov 2009 15:11

Please check Indo-UK thread for some recent articles on Indian soldiers in France in 1915 European war. (Sorry , I refuse to call it World War I)

Channel 4 from UK aired a documentary on foreign soldiers in the war and the presenter was the brilliant Ian Hislop.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Sachin » 10 Nov 2009 22:48

kasthuri wrote:It will be great if somebody here could give me more information about him so that we can help her better. Thanks.

Thank you for at least taking this intitative, you already are giving the daughter a helping hand :)

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Surya » 10 Nov 2009 22:56

Neela - do you have the name of the Channel 4 program

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Sanju » 11 Nov 2009 03:34

Dmurphy wrote:
AdityaM wrote:Some of dads friends (who became some of the senior commanders in the army ) had mentioned that the army was concerned about the charged atmosphere around the time, and many attrocities that they uncovered were kept hidden so as not to create any further bad blood.
The army had found many naked women inside 'the temple', who had been violated by the terrorsists. There were many dead ones too whose bodies were lying around because the terrorists could not dispose them off.

I wish all this info was brought into public domain, so that the focus could be put on the real culprits, instead bad mouthing the army.
Excuse my naivete here, but i really don't understand the point in keeping these things hidden when the Operation was being called all sorts of things, including a failure and a genocide. The hullabaloo would have died down to an extent if the terrorists' misdeeds were exposed then and there.

On the other hand, if the bodies etc were indeed uncovered, wouldn't the army be accused of all the wrongdoings if the the terrorists were not implicated? Were we worrying about the shadow being crooked when one is standing straight?


(Cross posting from the IA Special Forces thread as it is OT there.)

Dmurphy,

Since the Internet is generally a wonderfully anonymous world, I do not know your age nor where all you have been. I will assume that you did not live in the Punjab during the 1980's.

One had to live through those times to understand the above statement by AdityaM and in fact live in Punjab. What you heard in the last few years in Kashmir was happening in Punjab and it affected Delhi area too. Kids picking up Transistor radios left on cycles had their heads and other sundry body parts blown-off. Remember in those times TV was pretty much unheard of among the general populace. Our family would be considered as middle-class and we got our first B&W TV in 1983 after the Prudential World Cup. So finding a Transistor Radio then was like in the present times finding an Ipod!

The Pakis were still fresh from their face being smeared in their own sh!t over Bangladesh. They were keen in exploiting any fault lines real or imagined within India.

A Punjab that was very much united between the practitioners of the two major faiths was being divided by getting the youths on one side subverted to systematically attack and destroy people of the other faith. With so much of intermarrying, historic and familial ties amongst these people it was not taken lightly by everybody and there was a concerted effort amongst the people to overcome these subverted youths. The Social fabric was being torn apart. When your family member was being killed by your friend's son or your distant cousin's son, the only thought is animalistic - that of revenge and retribution. Split one family or neighborhood and the cracks start spreading across communities.

What I have written in two or three paragraphs was happening over months and years. The impact is still there in smaller cities in Punjab, where anecdotally I have heard from a family member that people still do not go for second shows at night.

The bad blood that AdityaM was referring to was among the community. Compared to the relatively smaller price that the Army had to pay in receiving a bad rap for imaginary crimes. The Army is an Institution where the individuals change over time and a near generation of officer have changed since Op Bluestar. The Institutional memory remains and like a Premier body that it is - IA learns from its history (please note I have not used the term its mistakes in this case). Look at Punjab it is currently like any other community/State across this vast Country of ours. Normal as normal can be.

Also remember in a charged atmosphere nobody listens to reason and it was orchestrated very well from across the border, borders and Oceans. Even today, I meet second generation with patently different view of what happened in those times.

One of the children who was trapped in the Golden Temple was the son of one of our officers. When I say our, I mean 14 Mahar. He was held along with his paternal grandmother. Their bodies even were not found. It was a personal tragedy for all of us. If you lived in Punjab before those times and during those times, you wonder how things can change so drastically. In Punjab you rarely find beggars, I have bought peanuts on a Train from a Blind man. The community takes care of its less fortunate. They do not encourage begging. This was the same place that people were mortally terrified to step out once it was dark. A community scared of itself!

This was the same state wherein we had to leave for our boarding school in an Army envoy (in fact one of the first ones - if not the first one to leave Punjab). But that is a different story or should I say Part II of the same story.

The times were very different and in hindsight some of the actions may or may not been correct. But hindsight is remarkable for its clarity.

In all of this, it must be noted that it was political bungling of a self inflicted nature. Army carried out its orders under extremely tough conditions. Op. Bluestar was a first for many things accomplished.

I am not sure if my rambling answered your Q's.

Cheers,
S

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby RayC » 11 Nov 2009 21:42

Sanju,

Very moving!

Opened up memories!

Too traumatic days!

14 MAHAR? Dalel?

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Sanju » 12 Nov 2009 03:37

Thank you sir and you are spot on!

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Dmurphy » 13 Nov 2009 13:24

Sanju wrote:Dmurphy,

Since the Internet is generally a wonderfully anonymous world, I do not know your age nor where all you have been. I will assume that you did not live in the Punjab during the 1980's.
You're right, I was not there. I was yet to grace mother earth when Op.Bluestar happened. It sounds really scary, that one of the most prosperous states in the country was going the J&K way. And I appreciate whatever you've narrated. But, I'm still wondering why exposing the terrorists proactively was not a good idea.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby rkirankr » 13 Nov 2009 16:06

Dmurphy wrote:
Sanju wrote:Dmurphy,

Since the Internet is generally a wonderfully anonymous world, I do not know your age nor where all you have been. I will assume that you did not live in the Punjab during the 1980's.
You're right, I was not there. I was yet to grace mother earth when Op.Bluestar happened. It sounds really scary, that one of the most prosperous states in the country was going the J&K way. And I appreciate whatever you've narrated. But, I'm still wondering why exposing the terrorists proactively was not a good idea.

Dmurphy,

In such a situation people of either communities will fail to make a distinction between ordinary normal people and the terrorists who may belong to a particular community. This would inflame passions and would probably result in a "neighbour kill neighbour". See what happened after IG's death. Also with the TSP supporting some of the bad elements here , it was best to minimize the impact. The Army did what was the best and saved the integrity of the nation on which our politicians had pi$$ed upon.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Aditya G » 17 Nov 2009 23:00

Apologies for posting a link to what looks like a pro-LTTE website. However, this link spread over 13-14 pages has archive of many popular journals from that time like Time, Newsweek.

Worth a look:

http://www.sangam.org/2007/11/Indo_LTTE ... p?uid=2643

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Aditya G » 29 Nov 2009 11:48

http://www.visionbooksindia.com/details ... 8170947413

General S. M. Srinagesh
Soldier * Scholar * Statesman
Brigadier Satish K. Issar
Pages: 360
Price: Rs. 595
Format: Hardcover
ISBN13/10: / 8170947413
Availability: Yes
Published in 2009



This book chronicles an extraordinary life. Satyavant Mallanah Shrinagesh rose to the very helm of the Indian Army at the astonishingly young age of 54. With the reputation of a “scholar soldier”, he was subsequently hand-picked to establish India's pioneering institution for training professional administrators. The first-ever military officer to be appointed governor of a state, his innings as governor of three different states, including the Naga-troubled Assam, was the capstone of a distinguished career of service to the nation.

Shrinagesh's schooling in England left a deep imprint in forming his personality and values. He forsook Cambridge in order to join Sandhurst, convinced that a free India would require trained Indian officers. He belongs to that earliest group of Indian military officers whose success shattered the myth then prevalent that Indians were incapable of providing military leadership.

As overall commander of the Jammu & Kashmir operations in 1947-48, Shrinagesh master-minded the audacious stratagem of over-coming well-entrenched Pakistani defences at Zoji La by the use of tanks. Never before had anyone conceived that tanks could be used at snow-bound Himalayan heights. His military leadership was evident in the no less a critical campaign to link-up with Poonch. Later, as Chief of the Army Staff, General Shrinagesh had perhaps a harder battle on his hands, namely to convince the government of a newly-independent India that the country needed strong armed forces for its security notwithstanding its espousal of a credo of peace and non-violence.

Buttressed by the autobiographical notes that Satyavant Shrinagesh left behind, the book also presents his prescient views on many an important matter military and civil, which are of enduring value .

Reminiscences of his family members reveal the endearing personality of a loving family man, a person of innate modesty coupled with a sense of honour and an unflagging zeal for professional excellence. The book fills an important void in recounting the crucial role of Indian Army and the extraordinary life and historic times of Satyavant Mallanah Shrinagesh."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brigadier Satish K. Issar



Satish Issar was born on 17 January 1937 at Rawalpindi (now in Pakistan), and did his early schooling at Lahore. Upon India's partition in 1947, he migrated to New Delhi. An alumnus of Harcourt Butler School and Hindu College in Delhi, later while in service he did his post-graduation in Defence Studies from Madras University.

He was commissioned on 7 June 1959 in the Kumaon Regiment. During his service of over three decades, Brigadier Issar held important Regimental, Staff and Instructional appointments. Post 1962 war with China, he was amongst the first regular officers selected to join The Ladakh Scouts in June 1963, and saw active service for three years in Nubra sector. He commanded a battalion each of the Kumaon and Naga Regiments, served as Military Assistant to Chief of the Army Staff, Padma Bhushan, General T. N. Raina, MVC, and was Commandant of Kumaon Regimental Centre, Ranikhet. He was an Instructor at National Defence Academy, Kharakvasla, College of Combat (now War College), Mhow, and the National Security Guard Training Centre, Manesar.

After retirement, Brigadier Issar has been devoted to the regional development of Kumaon Region of Uttrakhand.

A keen analyst of defence and security matters, Brigadier Issar has compiled an illustrated history of the Kumaon & Naga Regiments, The Images of Valour and Triumph.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby ramana » 02 Dec 2009 00:36


ramana
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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby ramana » 02 Dec 2009 00:39

Aditya G wrote:http://www.visionbooksindia.com/details.asp?isbn=8170947413

General S. M. Srinagesh
Soldier * Scholar * Statesman
Brigadier Satish K. Issar
Pages: 360
Price: Rs. 595
Format: Hardcover
ISBN13/10: / 8170947413
Availability: Yes
Published in 2009



This book chronicles an extraordinary life. Satyavant Mallanah Shrinagesh rose to the very helm of the Indian Army at the astonishingly young age of 54. With the reputation of a “scholar soldier”, he was subsequently hand-picked to establish India's pioneering institution for training professional administrators. The first-ever military officer to be appointed governor of a state, his innings as governor of three different states, including the Naga-troubled Assam, was the capstone of a distinguished career of service to the nation.

Shrinagesh's schooling in England left a deep imprint in forming his personality and values. He forsook Cambridge in order to join Sandhurst, convinced that a free India would require trained Indian officers. He belongs to that earliest group of Indian military officers whose success shattered the myth then prevalent that Indians were incapable of providing military leadership.

As overall commander of the Jammu & Kashmir operations in 1947-48, Shrinagesh master-minded the audacious stratagem of over-coming well-entrenched Pakistani defences at Zoji La by the use of tanks. Never before had anyone conceived that tanks could be used at snow-bound Himalayan heights. His military leadership was evident in the no less a critical campaign to link-up with Poonch. Later, as Chief of the Army Staff, General Shrinagesh had perhaps a harder battle on his hands, namely to convince the government of a newly-independent India that the country needed strong armed forces for its security notwithstanding its espousal of a credo of peace and non-violence.

Buttressed by the autobiographical notes that Satyavant Shrinagesh left behind, the book also presents his prescient views on many an important matter military and civil, which are of enduring value .

Reminiscences of his family members reveal the endearing personality of a loving family man, a person of innate modesty coupled with a sense of honour and an unflagging zeal for professional excellence. The book fills an important void in recounting the crucial role of Indian Army and the extraordinary life and historic times of Satyavant Mallanah Shrinagesh."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brigadier Satish K. Issar



Satish Issar was born on 17 January 1937 at Rawalpindi (now in Pakistan), and did his early schooling at Lahore. Upon India's partition in 1947, he migrated to New Delhi. An alumnus of Harcourt Butler School and Hindu College in Delhi, later while in service he did his post-graduation in Defence Studies from Madras University.

He was commissioned on 7 June 1959 in the Kumaon Regiment. During his service of over three decades, Brigadier Issar held important Regimental, Staff and Instructional appointments. Post 1962 war with China, he was amongst the first regular officers selected to join The Ladakh Scouts in June 1963, and saw active service for three years in Nubra sector. He commanded a battalion each of the Kumaon and Naga Regiments, served as Military Assistant to Chief of the Army Staff, Padma Bhushan, General T. N. Raina, MVC, and was Commandant of Kumaon Regimental Centre, Ranikhet. He was an Instructor at National Defence Academy, Kharakvasla, College of Combat (now War College), Mhow, and the National Security Guard Training Centre, Manesar.

After retirement, Brigadier Issar has been devoted to the regional development of Kumaon Region of Uttrakhand.

A keen analyst of defence and security matters, Brigadier Issar has compiled an illustrated history of the Kumaon & Naga Regiments, The Images of Valour and Triumph.



Jagan, Finally a book on our own Hyderabadi! As a school kid, I used to walk past his home in Hyderguda where he lived after his retirement.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Rahul M » 02 Dec 2009 07:25

Aditya G wrote:http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?262215

Into The Temple, With Boots On
Operation Bluestar was a bloody, avoidable desecration
Mark Tully

................

PS: Could not read the articles before posting ... excuse if its some junk!

very well written article by ,ark tully, a must read.

So ultimately, the blame for Operation Bluestar must be borne by the politicians who allowed the situation to deteriorate so far that they had to call out the army. They include the Akali Dal leaders. But Operation Bluestar did show the remarkable resilience of India. Neither the outrage among Sikhs at the desecration of their shrine nor indeed the anti-Sikh riots following Indira Gandhi’s assassination four months later fulfilled Bhindranwale’s ambition of constructing a Sikh identity based on hatred of Hindus. Once again India showed itself to be like a great ocean liner which sails through storms that would capsize smaller and less stable vessels. But this inherent stability reinforces India’s tendency to let things go, the “chalne do” factor, which was certainly at work in the Punjab crisis. Fear can be the beginning of wisdom, so perhaps India is not sufficiently afraid.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Jagan » 06 Dec 2009 07:04

71 War related TV News reports - in colour! Some of the best war time news reports I have seen!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFSVsCDMTZw
PAF POW movement to India (has Brig H S Kler in it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDotO6eM9xU
Gen Manekshaw visits Pak POWs and Indian Troops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqm_vQ0aRi4
This one is a great one - first it has some coverage of the distasteful incident where Kader Siddiquis men killed some Biharis in front of the press. The second part of the film is about the arms laying down ceremony held after a few days - in which Gen Nagra, Gen Sagat Singh and Brigadier Kler were present (photos are in BR Army gallery). An interview with Brig Baqar Siddiqui - Chief of Staff under Nagra - in which he states "part of the game" - maybe he was expecting to be back in Pakistan in about a few months?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPCzZZE6Qp4&NR=1
This one is fantastic as well - Coverage of the Chamb Battle front, T-55 stuck in mud, an Mi-4 evacuating battle casualities. Wow!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2d872sKV2o (Warning - Graphic content)
This is a disturbing video - with some GRAPHIC content on Indian wardead. It is about the early days of fighting in the Commilla sector in East Pakistan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPqLnZgsGAg&NR=1
Preparations in Dacca for the War - Footage of six Indian soldiers from the Naga Regiment capturedbefore the war. Footage of Razakars



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goJ8pOIo_cM
Bihari refugees after the war (And Indian troops providing protection to them)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf2oHCm3L7M
Evacuation of refugees after the war


65 WAr related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMsZ-8to ... re=related (Warning - Some Graphic content)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biMHVeFG_oA

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby abhishek_sharma » 07 Dec 2009 08:04


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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Airavat » 18 Dec 2009 13:28

The ‘71 Saga

When asked by Gen. Jacob a third time, “are you willing to accept an unconditional surrender Sir?” tears rolled down Gen. Niazi’s cheek, as he hung his head in shame. Gen. Jacob got up, saluted him and drove off to the airport and on reaching Calcutta, it was announced to the world that the surrender would follow the next day. I have personally heard General Jacob narrate this account, to a gathering at the release of the book, Conflict and Diplomacy: US and the Birth of Bangladesh, Pakistan Divides, by the notable Jaswant Singh and retired Major General S.P. Bhatia (by Rupa & Co).

Image

However the experience of 1962 led India not to move troops away from the Sino-Indian border. The US seventh fleet eventually entered the Bay of Bengal, but by then Dhaka had fallen. One photograph, with Lt. Gen A.A.K. Niazi, signing the surrender document as Lt. Gen J.S. Arora and other top Indian military commanders looked on, symbolises Pakistan’s darkest hour. But Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw, the then Chief of the Indian Army, as in many ways also an architect of this victory, discreetly kept away from the show.

Maroof Raza is the Managing Director of Salute He has authored ‘Generals and Governments in India and Pakistan’ (Har Anand Publications, New Delhi)

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Aditya G » 18 Dec 2009 22:45

Q: What was the Indian Army detachment in Lhasa post-1947? When and what events lead to it being recalled?

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/07ashok.htm

... Till the late 1950s, Indian Army detachments were posted at Lhasa and Yatung, protecting the trademarks ...


http://en.fondsk.ru/article.php?id=1320

...In 1959 Indian army took active part in anti-governmental riots in Tibet....


The first article also has a few titbits on operations in Sikkim (1975).

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Babu Bihari » 30 Dec 2009 21:38

/OT alert

Since RSS has been brought into the discussion, I want to give a couple of data points on RSS.

1) RSS volunteers fought alongside our troops in the 1962 war when we didn't have equipment to take on the Chinese. So much so that they participated in the Republic Day parade with full honors.
2) They have their own Muslim wing, Rashtravadi Muslim Manch, but unfortunately not much is reported about this organization in media.
3) They adopted families in Kashmir (many of them Muslim) who lost their bread earners due to terrorism.
[All this I can recollect reading some of the articles on net over the last couple of years]

When nation was at war in 1962, ordinary folks, even dehati ones in villages, gave away whatever they could. Many women just threw away whatever cherished family jewelery they had (my dad told me about this, I presume this was to buy weapons).

My point - (1) Do not buy in the propaganda for or against RSS. (2) Though our troops have highest respect from us ordinary folks, ordinary people too do their bit.
Last edited by Babu Bihari on 30 Dec 2009 21:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby RamaY » 30 Dec 2009 21:52

Babu Bihari wrote:1) RSS volunteers fought alongside our troops in the 1962 war when we didn't have equipment to take on the Chinese. So much so that they participated in the Republic Day parade with full honors.
2) They have their own Muslim wing, Rashtravadi Muslim Manch, but unfortunately not much is reported about this organization in media.
3) They adopted families in Kashmir (many of them Muslim) who lost their bread earners due to terrorism.
[All this I can recollect reading some of the articles on net over the last couple of years]

When nation was at war in 1962, ordinary folks, even dehati ones in villages, gave away whatever they could. Many women just threw away whatever cherished family jewelery they had (my dad told me about this, I presume this was to buy weapons).


Thank you Babu-Bihari Babu for stating the facts.

One can understand a DDM member propagating RSS-Yindutvavadi nonsense. But it is a different matter when (supposedly) well-informed people do the same on BRF.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Jagan » 30 Dec 2009 21:53

Babu Bihari wrote:/OT alert

Since RSS has been brought into the discussion, I want to give a couple of data points on RSS.

1) RSS volunteers fought alongside our troops in the 1962 war when we didn't have equipment to take on the Chinese. So much so that they participated in the Republic Day parade with full honors.
.



Is that from an RSS Text book?

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Babu Bihari » 30 Dec 2009 21:56

RayC sir, I recollect all this from memory, no links at this time. May be they volunteered and helped the troops. I distinctly remember reading that they had some role in 1962 war.

Added: Jagan sir, all this from memory reading some articles. I will try to google up the link.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby RayC » 30 Dec 2009 21:59

Babu Bihari wrote:RayC sir, I recollect all this from memory, no links at this time. May be they volunteered and helped the troops. I distinctly remember reading that they had some role in 1962 war.


I am not aware.

But this much I know certain Hindu organisations like Bharat Seva Ashram did great service. I know that my Mother gave away all her gold for the Nation to them and many others did so too! The Nation comes first!

I have seen them in Andhra cyclone and Gujarat earthquake and you can't have a better organisation!

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Jagan » 30 Dec 2009 22:07

Babu Bihari wrote:RayC sir, I recollect all this from memory, no links at this time. May be they volunteered and helped the troops. I distinctly remember reading that they had some role in 1962 war.

Added: Jagan sir, all this from memory reading some articles. I will try to google up the link.



we rely on referenced information.

"from memory", "I was told", etc will not hold water here. esp on a tall claim like this.


Collecting funds, doing marches in towns aned cities are different. everyone does it. the NCC does it, maybe organisationslike NSS and RSS do it. The NCC goes further with active involvment in Civil defence. I am sure there is al ocal org everywhere.

But saying, RSS volunteers fought alongside our troops in the 1962 war is right up there in fantasy land. I am sorry to be harsh, but I really dont like "Myth Building" out of the blue.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Babu Bihari » 30 Dec 2009 22:23

Jagar sir, OK. I will be more precise in future. One thing I recall is a photo of their participation in 1963 Republic Day parade for their role during the 1962 war. I stand corrected on their role.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby shravan » 30 Dec 2009 22:32

Babu Bihari wrote:Jagar sir, OK. I will be more precise in future. One thing I recall is a photo of their participation in 1963 Republic Day parade for their role during the 1962 war. I stand corrected on their role.


From Yahoo Answers.

It is a false claim that RSS fought in Sino Indian war alongside Indian army.

The RSS which had been keeping low profile after the lifting of the ban, earned recognition based on its volunteer work during the Sino Indian war in 1962. RSS was invited by Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru to take part in the Indian Republic day parade of 1963. It along with several other civilian organizations took part in the parade.

The reason was our neighbor China has just got back from aggression and India did not have enough forces. India did not have army for Republic day parade, thus a decision was made to have civilians to march in the parade.

Read this from a RSS author:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ifuxzl ... de&f=false

A picture of that event is posted on RSS website:

http://www.sanghparivar.org/files/u1/rs ... sevaks.jpg

I don't have links but if you want you can buy these books or look at libraries.

M. G. Chitkara, Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh: National Upsurge, Page 275

Srirupa Roy, Beyond belief: India and the Politics of Postcolonial Nationalism, Page 83

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Babu Bihari » 30 Dec 2009 22:46

Thanks shravan, the book by RSS author clears it up. They were invited because the troops were deployed.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Jagan » 30 Dec 2009 22:52

Shravan thanks for that link. (BB this is exactly the research you need to make before throwing wild claims)

Also note the apparent discrepancy. The book states 100 strong contingent. someone handwrote 35-00 on the newspaper clipping on the sangh parivar site.

the link to the photo says the same http://www.sanghparivar.org/photo-of-rs ... de-in-1963

This is exactly the kind of mythmaking fodder. someone glances the sanghparivar site, and before you know everyone starts claiming 3500 contingent in the RD parade whereas its actually 100

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Virupaksha » 30 Dec 2009 23:17

Jagan,

If only the first block from that photo is considered as rss - seeing that the entire first line is wearing Khaki shorts, there are around 200-250 people in the first block.

The second block is also wearing white or some very light colour- difficult to really pinpoint in a black and white photo. Also they seem to be wearing shorts.

Also notice that the "last" person possibly from the previous batch is also wearing a very very light coloured shirt.

So from that photograph alone, 100 is a very very lowball estimate.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby svinayak » 31 Dec 2009 00:01

ravi_ku wrote:
So from that photograph alone, 100 is a very very lowball estimate.

Numbers do not signify much here. Actual number should not be the topic of discussion here and it will take it away from the significance of organization and participation. Using this example and trying to imply that everything about RSS is some fantasy should not be topic of discussion.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Jagan » 31 Dec 2009 02:59

Ravi

Photo intrepretations are as per individuals. My interpretation would be different from yours. So such interpretations have to be backed up with reliable information.

The Number 100 is from the link shravan has posted which is a book published by the RSS. I didnt come up with any such estimate.

Acharya wrote:[ Actual number should not be the topic of discussion here and it will take it away from the significance of organization and participation. Using this example and trying to imply that everything about RSS is some fantasy should not be topic of discussion.


I am not discussing the RSS either. This is about how "Myths" creep into Military History . Someone can take some webpage somewhere without any evidence and come up with a a tall story .. the moral is dont depend on webpages off the internet to support your theories.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Rupesh » 01 Jan 2010 04:46

India: Never Again the Same

1962 WAR report in TIME Mag

But Americans in New Delhi last week were irritated by evidence that the Indian government still prefers equivocation to the plain truth. Official requests went out to the Indian press not to print photos showing the arrival of U.S. arms, and the twelve U.S. Air Force transport planes sent by Washington to ferry Indian troops were made to sound like leased aircraft flown by mercenaries. The crowds know better. A current slogan is a revision of the earlier cry for brotherhood with China: "Americans bhai bhai; Chini hai hail" (Americans are our brothers; death to the Chinese!).

An Indian Cabinet minister, who disagrees with Nehru politically but respects him, says passionately: "He will come to many changes now. You cannot imagine how difficult it was for him to get rid of Menon. Do not think it was easy for him to ask for American arms. Right now, it is important not to push him into a corner in public." Another Cabinet minister, who does not like Nehru, also counsels patience: "His will to resist will wear down. It is already worn down a long way. Hitherto, there was no opposition at all in India. Now, Nehru is relying on his opposition. He may hate it. He has been thrown into the company of people like me, people he does not like. We make strange bedfellows, but together we are going to win the war."

To Americans it may sound like a peculiar way to win a war. But though India moves at a different pace and speaks with a different voice few could doubt last week the Indian determination to see that the Himalayan defeats were avenged, however long it may take.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby BajKhedawal » 04 Jan 2010 10:59

I hope this is the right thread to post this

Found this picture online, its titled “Dhaka, December 17, 1965”. I wonder if those are 303 or the .22
(Who knows? Somebody’s Dadi-Amma could be in the picture)

Image


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