India Nuclear News And Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
Avinash R
BRFite
Posts: 1973
Joined: 24 Apr 2008 19:59

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Avinash R »

India's fast breeder reactor achieves second milestone
Updated on Sunday, December 06, 2009, 10:25 IST
Chennai: India's first indigenously designed 500MW fast breeder nuclear power project achieved its second milestone albeit silently when the huge main vessel was lowered into the safety vessel, an official said.

"We have been waiting to do this for quite sometime but were not permitted by the rain gods. As the sky was clear, we decided to go ahead with the lowering of the main vessel and completed it Saturday," project director Prabhat Kumar said from Kalpakkam.

The Rs 5,600 crore project is being built by the Bharatiya Nabhikiya Vidyut Nigam Limited (Bhavini) at the Kalpakkam nuclear enclave, around 80 km from here.

A fast breeder reactor is one which breeds more material for a nuclear fission reaction than it consumes and key to India's three stage nuclear power programme.

Lowering of the huge stainless steel main vessel - 12.9 metres in diameter and 12.94 metres in height, weighing 206 tonnes - is considered a major step in completing the 500 MW power project by the September 2011 deadline.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25382
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

DAE ups nuclear power generation capacity from 20 GW to 30 GW by 2020
The Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) has raised civil nuclear power generation to 30,000 MW by 2020 against the earlier target of 20,000 MW, said Dr S. Banerjee, Secretary, DAE, and Chairman, Atomic Energy Commission.
DAE's next step was to develop four reactors of 700 MW capacities for which government clearance had been obtained. More 700 MW reactors would come, but that it would depend on the fuel linkage.
The Department was in the process of creating energy parks, essentially the concept is to have more reactors on the same site and share the exclusion zone. Otherwise, every reactor should have an exclusion zone. Each of the parks could have a 6 X 1000 MW or even a 6 X 1650 MW which would total to about 10,000 MW. The Government plans to create energy parks in Andhra Pradesh (Kowada), Gujarat (Chhayamithi Virdi), Maharashtra (Jaitapur) and West Bengal (Haripur).
harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by harbans »

Apologies if posted earlier..

http://www.newsweek.com/id/225533#CommentBox
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25382
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

India-Russia Civil Nuclear Deal Practically Sealed
Describing the proposed civil nuclear energy pact as “path breaking,” the sources said both sides only needed to sort out one sentence.

The pact covered the gamut of nuclear cooperation and was a “significant document” as it went far beyond the 123 Agreement in the civil nuclear energy sector signed with the United States.

The India-Russia pact promises enrichment and reprocessing rights to India and assures the country against termination of ongoing projects and fuel supply arrangements if bilateral nuclear cooperation is ended for some reason. The pact with the U.S. has fallen short on both counts. “We are hoping we will sort out that sentence during delegation-level talks led by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh with the Russian leadership,” said the sources.
Sanatanan
BRFite
Posts: 490
Joined: 31 Dec 2006 09:29

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanatanan »

There was wide dissemination of the texts of the Indo-US nuclear shenanigans (read 'deals'), even to the extent of parsing the dots of 'i's and crosses of 't's apart from the position of various punctuation marks. The same does not seem to be true of the Indo-French or Indo-Russian counterparts. Is it that our media could gather information (mostly leaked by one interested party or the other, I would think) only in the case of Indo-US nuclear deal? Or may be translating French or Russian into English / Indian Languages is a bit tough :!:
Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11240
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Gagan »

It is the trust and comfort levels (or the lack of it wrt the US) that is responsible.

And the US is doing itself no favors by keeping its relations with India ambiguous and distant, such that the babooze have to have a fine tooth comb and a magnifying glass out whenever they meet massa's representatives.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by NRao »

IF it was left up to Bush, he may have signed pretty much anything I guess. The problem is that the US Congress had to pass some crap and perhaps that is why we had all those crossings and dottings.

I am fairly sure that the FR/RU do not have to conduct a similar circus.
Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11240
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Gagan »

The question is that why does the US congress behave in such a way? It is because there are elements there who don't want to see things easy for India it seems. It would appear to some that India's rise is seen as a challenge.

While France / Russia don't care if India rises, and are quite willing to join in.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by SaiK »

thats because we are idealogically orthogonal to the khans.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25382
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Interview with the new AEC Chairman, Dr. S. Banerjee
Excerpts
Where does the country stand in terms of fuel reprocessing and enrichment?

Today, we already have undertaken enrichment but on a scale for specific needs. We have not set up enrichment plants to cater to 1,000 MW reactors, but we have the capacity that needs to be expanded. Plans are on to set up a commercial enrichment plant near Mysore, Karnataka. Essentially, it is an issue of expanding scale.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25382
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

India-Russia sign nuclear pact
India and Russia on Monday signed a path-breaking broad-based agreement in civil nuclear field that will ensure transfer of technology and uninterrupted uranium fuel supplies to its nuclear reactors . . . “Today we have signed an agreement that broadens the reach of our cooperation beyond supplies of nuclear reactors to areas of research and development and a whole range of areas in nuclear energy,” Mr. Singh told a joint press conference with Mr. Medvedev.

The Prime Minister said the agreement will deepen and strengthen the already existing nuclear cooperation between the two countries under which four new nuclear reactors would be set up by Russia in Kudankulam in Tamil Nadu and a site for the fifth one has been identified in West Bengal.

The new civil nuclear pact provides for uninterrupted uranium fuel supplies from Russia even in the event of termination of bilateral ties in this field for any reason.

The India-Russia pact on atomic cooperation is a significant document and goes much further than the 123 agreement between India and the U.S., officials said. The pact also has provisions for transfer of enrichment and nuclear technology, which is denied in the 123 agreement with the U.S.

Mr. Medvedev said the nuclear agreement opens the way for greater cooperation beyond Kudankulam.

“The nuclear cooperation between the two countries have a very good future. We are satisfied with the cooperation and I hope today’s agreement will pave the way for greater cooperation in this field in the years to come,” he said.

Asked about provision of ENR to India against the backdrop of a G8 resolution in July this year under which Russia and seven other countries committed that they will refrain from transferring such technology, he said: “Nothing changes for us.” {Now, what could that possibly mean ? This is an ambiguous statement}
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by NRao »

Gagan wrote:The question is that why does the US congress behave in such a way? It is because there are elements there who don't want to see things easy for India it seems. It would appear to some that India's rise is seen as a challenge.

While France / Russia don't care if India rises, and are quite willing to join in.
Perhaps.

However, we have to recognize that the mechanism was set up long prior to any thought of a "deal".

Furthermore, we have to recognize that the Bush admin actually had to twist arms all over to get things through. As I stated earlier, IF it were to be left just to Bush, India would have got a lot more.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by NRao »

First N-plant with US-tech by 2018
“We also want to use India as a base for exports of components for nuclear power plants to the US and Europe,” Roderick said.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by shiv »

er could someone please indicate what shares I should be buying today wrt all these deals?
amdavadi
BRFite
Posts: 1489
Joined: 16 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amdavadi »

NTPC :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25382
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

L&T as well.
Sanatanan
BRFite
Posts: 490
Joined: 31 Dec 2006 09:29

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanatanan »

From Reuters:
Lack of land adds to U.S. atomic firms' India worries
Tue Dec 8, 2009 5:37am IST
By Bappa Majumdar

NEW DELHI, Dec 7 (Reuters) - U.S nuclear firms said on Monday they were worried land scarcity in India could further delay a joint atomic deal already hobbled by policy holdups over issues such as accident liability protection.

A 50-member U.S. business delegation this week is seeking to push the implementation of the deal, which promises to open up India's multi-billion-dollar nuclear market to American firms.

U.S. firms already worry over delays such as writing a new Indian law to limit U.S. firms' liability in case of an industrial accident and differences over a fuel reprocessing pact. Recent protests over land acquisition for building reactors has added to their uncertainty.

India and the United States signed a civilian nuclear deal last year, ending India's nuclear isolation since it tested a nuclear device in 1974 and opening up its atomic market for firms such as General Electric Co (GE.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and Westinghouse Electric Co, a subsidiary of Japan's Toshiba Corp (6502.T: Quote, Profile, Research).

But with delays in implementation of the deal, U.S. firms have lagged in a competitive scramble with Russian and French firms whose governments guarantee their liability in case of an industrial accident.

"Yes, we realise land acquisition is a problem here," Timothy Richards, head of international energy policy at General Electric (GE.N) told Reuters.

In India, farmland acquisition has highlighted a broader standoff between industry and farmers in a country where two-thirds of the population lives on agriculture.

India identified two sites in July for U.S. firms to build reactors but the news was greeted with noisy protests by farmers refusing to give up their land.

Hundreds of poor farmers marched in New Delhi in October to protest against the acquisition of land for a proposed nuclear power plant in the western state of Maharashtra.

U.S. firms say they are leaving the task of land acquisition to the Indian government. Craig Hansen, Vice President of Babcock and Wilcox, a leading U.S. nuclear power generation company, said he hoped "the opportunity will outweigh the problems".


Meena Mutyala, business leader of Westinghouse's India strategy, said issues which also required resolution included fuel reprocessing and export licencing.

(Editing by Krittivas Mukherjee and Paul Tait)


I had alluded to this issue in a bolg post as early as in September 2007. Quoting a relevant portion from it here:
. . . . Last but not the least is the requirement of enforcing what is (probably unfortunately and inappropriately) called a 'sterilised zone' law/rule -- authorities will not permit, without their prior approval, civilisational or industrial growth over an area of 5 km radius around the npp. This requirement is prevalent only in India. Such restrictions on land-use could cause much heartburn for the affected persons. Value of their property would plummet when an npp comes up nearby, leading to agitations, which in turn lead to project delay (may be even cancellation of the project).
Perhaps now the 'sterilised zone' law/rule will get bent for the imported plants :!:

Likewise, the 'distance-to-coal mine' rule may also be rewritten just to accommodate US, France and Russia. I see signs of this beginning to happen.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

sorry I haven't kept up with this thread, what happened to the water contamination incident ?
have the perpetrators been located/arrested ?
TIA.
Hiten
BRFite
Posts: 1130
Joined: 21 Sep 2008 07:57
Location: Baudland
Contact:

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Hiten »

Just in: 3 people arrested with Uranium in Mumbai

TimesNow says samples have been sent to B.A.R.C for analysis

Journos should be more circumspect & add alleged until test results are released :|
Last edited by Hiten on 08 Dec 2009 09:57, edited 1 time in total.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25382
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Rahul M wrote:sorry I haven't kept up with this thread, what happened to the water contamination incident ?
have the perpetrators been located/arrested ?
TIA.
Not yet, Rahul.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25382
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Kaiga is an 'insider mischief': Karnataka Pollution Board Chief
“Our people are investigating the matter and the report would be out soon,” he added.
Multiple agencies are investigating this incident. There is an FIR with the State police and so they are investigating. Kaiga Plant management is investigating as well as the NPCIL. May be, AERB is also investigating. Now, Karnataka State Pollution Control Board Chief says they are also investigating.
Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4856
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Neshant »

US to build 12 N-plants in AP, Gujarat
I get the feeling I'll be reading about one or more of these units going off union carbide style and killing/poisoning hundreds of thousands some day.

seems the nuclear suppliers are awfully eager to make the sale and wash their hands off it right from the start.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

thanks SS.
wasu
BRFite
Posts: 112
Joined: 24 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by wasu »

US n-firms feel the New Delhi chill news

http://www.domain-b.com/economy/worldec ... firms.html

New Delhi: A US nuclear trade mission of around 50 companies, currently doing the rounds in the Indian capital and dropping loud hints of sourcing nuclear engineering products from India, may be feeling the New Delhi chill a bit more harsher than others. With NPT zealots in the Obama administration ensuring that the 123 Agreement takes its time to materialise, New Delhi may have atlast decided to shed some of its forced cordiality to all things American and not rollout the red carpet.

...

An Indian administration that has seen all the bonhomie between the respective governments gradually wither away, even as NPT-hawks and assorted cold war-era warriors begin to assert greater authority within the policy making confines of the US administration, may have decided to splash some cold water on the hype that Americans routinely generate with all their endeavours.

.....

So far, it's been the US that has been trying to convince India to sign on all the details that American domestic and national interests demand, and has been citing acceptances of such conditions by other countries. It may now well be India's turn to cite its agreement with Russia and see what the arm chair warriors at Foggy Bottoms make of it.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by NRao »

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by NRao »

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by NRao »

Both those headlines are misleading!!!!
arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arun »

SSridhar wrote:India-Russia sign nuclear pact ..........................
Reaction of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to the Indo-Russian nuclear agreement:
FO expresses concern over India-Russia nuke deal

By Iftikhar A. Khan
Friday, 11 Dec, 2009

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan expressed concern on Thursday over the signing of India-Russia civil nuclear energy deal and said it had a legitimate interest in ensuring that strategic balance in South Asia was maintained.

‘Major powers have a responsibility in this regard as discriminatory policies are contributing negatively,’ Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit said at a press briefing here.

He said Pakistan could not remain oblivious to such developments and would take all possible steps to protect its legitimate security interests.

He also referred to the statements emanating from New Delhi about waging a limited war, linking it with the cold start strategy officially unveiled by it in 2004.
The spokesman did not say how the civil nuclear energy framework agreement would affect the strategic balance, but experts are of the opinion that it will enhance India’s capacity to enrich fissile material, which can covertly be used for developing nuclear bombs.

They pointed out that the India-Russia pact promised enrichment and reprocessing rights to India and assured the country against termination of ongoing projects and fuel supply arrangements if bilateral nuclear cooperation was ended for some reason. ..........................

Dawn
vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4479
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by vera_k »

40 cents: That's the cost of an Indian life
A couple of weeks back, the Union cabinet okayed the bill -- Civil Nuclear Liability Bill, fixing the civil liability at Rs 2,500 crore ($450 million).
Greenpeace sent its report to Soli Sorabjee for an Opinion. Sorabjee is not only one of the best constitutional experts we have in this country, he is also India's former attorney-general. This is what Sorabjee said in his Opinion: "There is no warrant or justification for capping nuclear liability, as is sought to be done. Any such move will be in defiance of the Supreme Court judgments and will be contrary to the interest of people of India and their fundamental rights under Article 21 of the Constitution."
Sanatanan
BRFite
Posts: 490
Joined: 31 Dec 2006 09:29

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanatanan »

From The Hindu:

Limiting nuclear liability is a violation of rights: Sorabjee
. . .

Sharing Mr. Sorabjee’s view, senior Supreme Court lawyer and constitutional expert P.P. Rao said: “This [Bill] can be challenged as it may not stand judicial scrutiny. It is vulnerable, arbitrary and unfair.” He wondered how the government could legally deprive a victim of fair and just compensation. Any such move would be violative of the right to life.

According to Mr. Sorabjee, Supreme Court judgments have clearly laid down that in case of accidents in plants engaged in a hazardous or inherently dangerous activity that poses a potential threat to the health and safety of persons, such enterprises, applying the ‘polluter pays principle,’ owe an absolute and non-delegable duty to ensure that no harm results to anyone.

Pointing out that the main lesson from the Bhopal gas tragedy was that foreign companies engaged in hazardous industries must be made strictly and absolutely liable for any damage caused by their units, Supreme Court lawyer Prashant Bhushan said “the proposed Bill, instead, seeks to limit the liability, which is absurd.”
Who is the polluter? In the event of an accident, can the culpability be definitively assigned amongst the designer, manufacturer, constructor, agencies who do quality control, or the operator? One could argue that, if the design, construction and operation are under continuing oversight of a Regulatory Authority, then they should also be included in the "culpability" list above. When an event happens, blame game would immediately start. So would the chorus of legitimate claims for compensation drowned by illegitimate, opportunistic ones. In my view, institutionalised, independent mechanisms for establishing the cause(s) for the "event" must first be put in place before such legislations are enacted in India.

I believe that, for example in the case of the Chernobyl accident, the designer who did not provide adequate mechanisms to adequately prevent positive reactivity coefficient taking over, the Regulatory Authorities who allowed such a design to be implemented, are also to be held responsible along with the Operators who violated norms laid down for safe operation.

But there is something called "hind sight" by which we become wiser after an event. Hence the whole issue needs to be approached from a realistic and fair view point. Just limiting the damages to some amount of money to be paid by the operator (or his Insurer) may not be the correct solution.

Just my views.

By the way, can any one tell me just how Russia (USSR) settled the national and international compensation claims arising out of Chernobyl accident?
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

Typical of the Indian media, a brouhaha of "sellout" has started even without exmaning eitehr the draft bill or international precedents..

the Joint Protocol, linking up the Vienna and Paris protocols of IAEA and OECD resp on nuclear liability, are fairly clear on the exclusive liability of the operator for any accident, as also the limited nature of the liability..

A lot of info here..

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf67.html

Excerpts:
Liability is channelled exclusively to the operators of the nuclear installations;
Liability of the operator is absolute, i.e. the operator is held liable irrespective of fault, except for "acts of armed conflict, hostilities, civil war or insurrection";
Liability of the operator is limited in amount. Under the Vienna Convention the upper ceiling is not fixed**; but it may be limited by legislation in each State.
Current levels of liability according to various conventions and laws seems to be in the 300-550 million dollar range, so our reported 450 million is not out-of-bounds at all.
** The Paris Convention set a maximum liability of 15 million Special Drawing Rights - SDR (about EUR 18 million), but this was increased under the Brussels Supplementary Convention up to a total of 300 million SDRs (about EUR 360 million), including contributions by the installation State up to SDR 175 million (EUR 210M) and other Parties to the Convention collectively on the basis of their installed nuclear capacity for the balance.
The US framwwork
It was renewed for 20 years in mid 2005, with strong bipartisan support, and requires individual operators to be responsible for two layers of insurance cover. The first layer is where each nuclear site is required to purchase US$ 300 million liability cover which is provided by two private insurance pools. This is financial liability, not legal liability as in European liability conventions.


The second layer is jointly provided by all US reactor operators. It is funded through retrospective payments if required of up to $112 million per reactor per acident* collected in annual instalments of $17.5 million (and adjusted with inflation). Combined, the total provision comes to over $10 billion paid for by the utilities. (The Department of Energy also provides $10 billion for its nuclear activities.) Beyond this cover and irrespective of fault, Congress, as insurer of last resort, must decide how compensation is provided in the event of a major accident

UK framework
In the UK, the Energy Act 1983 brought legislation into line with earlier revisions to the Paris/Brussels Conventions and set a new limit of liability for particular installations. In 1994 this limit was increased again to £140 million for each major installation, so that the operator is liable for claims up to this amount and must insure accordingly. The majority of this insurance is provided by a pool of UK insurers comprising 8 insurance companies and 16 Lloyds syndicates - - Nuclear Risk Insurers. Beyond £140 million, the current Paris/Brussels system applies, with government contribution to SDR 300 million (c €360 million). The government is planning legislation for 2010 which will require insurance above the £140 million level, and towards the EUR 700 million level specified under the 2004 Paris/Brussels Protocol (when it enters force), this to be provided by government at commercial rates.
Basically, the best way to transfer the liability to the "foreigners" would be to allow 100% equity stake in the utility, rather than insisting upon NPCIL to be the sole utility for all nuke power projects!

I dont think SU paid anything at all to anyone (at least its own citizens) as compensation for Chernobyl...That was not the communist style!
putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4727
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by putnanja »

What if there was manufacturing/design defect which becomes known say 10-15 years after installation of the plant? Is the operator still responsible for the damages?
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

^^^ Internationally, the onus is on the operator, even it seems for force majeure conditions like sabotage..

In case we want the manufacturer of the plant to be liable, the way to do it is to ensure that he beceoms the operator..that way manufacturing/design is not divorced from the utility...

Even today in India, the designer and operator of most plants is the same, ie AEC (or Govt of India)...

By allowing 100% foreign/pvt equity in utilities, we clearly lay down responsibilities...then NPCIL can, if it wants to limit its own liabilities, only use AEC technologies, while the foreign tech is used by the foreign utility..
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by SaiK »

why not post it in full here?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12062

Pokhran-II: An H-bomb disaster
Last updated on: December 11, 2009 11:23 IST
Tags: Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Defence Research and Development Organisation, Department of Atomic Energy, P-2, RCM


The failure of India [ Images ]'s sole H-bomb is the latest in the Department of Atomic Energy and Bhabha Atomic Research Centre's long history of being economical with the truth.

Several articles have been written in recent weeks, on the Pokhran tests of 1998 and, in the wake of disclosures about the failure of the test of the thermo-nuclear (TN, or hydrogen bomb) device, the need for further testing. Some of these articles have argued that technical information published by the DAE and the BARC does not show that Pokhran-II was unsuccessful; and that there are compelling arguments against resuming H-bomb testing, even if the TN test was a failure.

BARC is quoted as saying that the TN device's yield was "consistent with" its original estimate of 50 + 10 kilotons (kT) for the two main tests conducted on May 11, 1998, viz. a 45 kT (TN) device and a 15 kT A-bomb which were exploded simultaneously.

BARC has also argued that it employed different techniques to estimate the device yield (power output), and that the post-shot Radio-Chemical Method (RCM) used to arrive at the above figure was considered the most accurate for measuring device yields. However, according to the former director of BARC's radio-chemistry division, he had measured the yield of India's first nuclear device in 1974 (P1) using the Mass Spectrometry method, internationally accepted as even more accurate than the officially tom-tommed RCM. It is also far less sensitive to the major weakness of the RCM method: If a sample is taken even slightly off the geometric centre of the core cavity (the heart of the nuclear weapon), the yield estimate can be way out from correct value. That was the principal reason why Raja Ramanna, the 'Father of our Nuclear Weapon Programme,' insisted on using the MS method for yield estimation in 1974. If the MS method was used in P-2 also, the results should be made public. If it was not used, why not?

Both the A-bomb 'trigger' and the main H-bomb produce neutrons. However, H-bombs produce more neutrons than A-bombs. This leads to considerably larger amounts of two artificially created radio-isotopes--Manganese 54 and Sodium 22--being produced by the TN device than the A-bomb. This higher ratio of Manganese 54 to Sodium 22 in the H-bomb explosion gives an 'idea' of the A-vs H-bomb/device yields (no numbers, only an "idea"), it has been argued.

The absolute values of this higher ratio have been withheld for 'obvious' reasons, says BARC conveniently. However, a 'fizzled' TN device also produces 'copious amounts' of these isotopes. Moreover, the mere presence of these isotopes is not a quantitative yield measure; at best it is only a qualitative indicator. The source of many of the assertions is an article in the July 1999 issue of BARC's in-house newsletter — not a peer-reviewed scientific journal. How many people in India, let alone internationally, are even aware of such a newsletter, or read it, even sporadically?

But there are more serious problems with BARC's assertions. Crucially, BARC claims the A-bomb yield was only 15 kT when its collaborator in P-2, the Defence Research and Development Organisation, and leading nuclear weapons laboratories worldwide, have rated it at 20–25 kT. Moreover, the hi-tech ARC — which is totally independent of both BARC and DRDO—with its very large seismic array that is 10-15 per cent more sensitive and accurate than DRDO's, (and far superior to the 30-year-old BARC array at Gauribidanur in Karnataka [ Images ]) measured all seismic signals from all P-2 tests. The highly sophisticated measurements and calculations of ARC scientists indicated a maximum TN device yield at only 20 kT. It is no wonder that the failed TN device has not been weaponised, 11 years after P-2, and India is absolutely naked today before China's H-bombs!

A 15 kT device could not have produced a 25-metre diameter crater as had occurred. What's more interesting is that, what BARC claims was a 45 kT H-bomb—that is supposedly thrice as powerful—produced no crater at all! Commonsensically, a genuine 45 kT TN device should have produced a gigantic crater. To get around this difficulty, BARC argues that if the shaft (in which the TN device is placed) is deep "enough", there will only be upheaval within the shaft, but no crater will be created. However, the shaft containing the TN device was only 20 metres deeper than the shaft for the A-bomb. Such a small difference cannot "explain" the fact that there was no crater at all.

Had the TN test really worked, the 120-metre deep shaft at the bottom of which the TN device was placed would have been totally destroyed, and its deepest portions even vapourised. There would, in addition, have been enormous surface damage. Most tellingly, the massive two-tonne, eight-meter high tripod ("A-frame") astride the shaft's mouth with a complex set of winches and pullies connected to a lift-like container to lower and raise personnel, equipment and materials to and from the shaft's bottom, would have been totally destroyed. But the A-frame was totally intact after the TN device test. How can this hard, visual evidence be ignored?

Some experts have argued that the damage that even a 25 kT A-bomb can cause to enemy city targets with large populations would be unacceptable to any adversary, and so, such A-bombs would be enough for us to deter even China, which has already deployed 200 H- bombs of 3.3-5 megaton yields each--200 times more powerful than what we have. Around 50 of these are in Tibet [ Images ] targeting us. It is astonishing to see the same people who argued vociferously for decades that H-bombs were central to our Credible Minimum Deterrent, suddenly do a volte-face and say A-bombs (which, for technical reasons, cannot be made to have yields more than 80 kT) are enough! Why?

China would be undeterred by our A-bomb arsenal of the yields indicated above. So we reiterate our considered view-- shared by the majority of our nuclear scientists, strategic analysts and, above all, our military--that a solely A-bomb arsenal is inadequate as a deterrent against China. Otherwise, why did four prime ministers want a TN device (H-bomb) and why did the then Prime Minister Vajpayee and his National Security Advisor Brajesh Mishra direct and insist with the BARC-DRDO leadership — Kalam, Chidambaram, Santhanam and Kakodkar--that at least one P-2 test must be of a TN device?

The current controversy over the failure of India's sole H-bomb test of P-2 is only the latest case in a long history of DAE and BARC being "highly economical" with the truth, and using such "economy" to protect themselves from public criticism of major failures in large numbers of programmes and projects. Failures have been screened from the public gaze on the grounds of 'nwarranted secrecy; worse, DAE has made a huge effort to hide the facts from not only successive Parliaments and the people but even from successive governments, causing incalculable damage to our nuclear weapon and power programmes and to national security.

K Santhanam is a former chief adviser (Technologies), DRDO, and programme director, Pokhran II.

Ashok Parthasarathi is a former S&T adviser to late Prime Minister Indira Gandhi [ Images ] and Secretary of several scientific departments.
K Santhanam and Ashok Parthasarathi in New Delhi
Q: If Santanam ji is correct, What options & choice do we still have, besides full scale testing [exclude sub-criticals]?
Sanatanan
BRFite
Posts: 490
Joined: 31 Dec 2006 09:29

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanatanan »

In the US, is the Auto Industry treated differently than Nuclear Plants? For all auto accidents, is only the Driver (or his insurer) liable to pay compensation?

For example, see this article where trailer owners are suing the manufacturer for "using poor methods and materials". (This article is not about an auto accident per se, but deals with automobiles. The "accident" was caused by Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. Nevertheless the liability for damage caused does not seem to rest solely with the owner of the Trailers, nor with the Hurricane - "force" majeure!. I must admit I just picked this article up at random from a Google search. There may be better examples.) If possible, must check with Mr. Ralph Nader :!:

Thousands of FEMA Trailer Claims Filed by Victims of Hurricane Katrina and Rita

With respect to nuclear accident liability, I think what might be good for gora land need not necessarily be good for India.

I do agree that one way, as suggested in the earlier post, might be for NPCIL to opt out of operating imported plants - only, under the current UPA dispensation, I do not know whether NPCIL would have a choice in the matter!

In my view, India should not bow to these pressure tactics by the US (and probably others). For long I have been a votary of not importing nuclear power plants, even if I am in a minority of one!!
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by NRao »

In the US, is the Auto Industry treated differently than Nuclear Plants? For all auto accidents, is only the Driver (or his insurer) liable to pay compensation?
IF the product has a flaw then the manufacturer is responsible.
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

Sanatanan wrote:In the US, is the Auto Industry treated differently than Nuclear Plants? For all auto accidents, is only the Driver (or his insurer) liable to pay compensation?

Thousands of FEMA Trailer Claims Filed by Victims of Hurricane Katrina and Rita

With respect to nuclear accident liability, I think what might be good for gora land need not necessarily be good for India.

I do agree that one way, as suggested in the earlier post, might be for NPCIL to opt out of operating imported plants - only, under the current UPA dispensation, I do not know whether NPCIL would have a choice in the matter!

In my view, India should not bow to these pressure tactics by the US (and probably others). For long I have been a votary of not importing nuclear power plants, even if I am in a minority of one!!
There is absolutely no similarity between autos and utilities..Laibility of the operator of the utility is a global standard, India cannot be standing in isolation when what it is seeking to do is global nuke commerce....Of course we can also make do with indigeneous reactors only - we have been doing so for many years, and the outcome is not all that encouraging.

In the meanwhile, the best idea to shift the onus on the "designer" is to force/incentivise him to become the operator..Allow 100% foreign equity instead of preserving the NPCIL monopoly..
Sanatanan
BRFite
Posts: 490
Joined: 31 Dec 2006 09:29

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanatanan »

somnath wrote: . . . Laibility of the operator of the utility is a global standard, India cannot be standing in isolation when what it is seeking to do is global nuke commerce....
Whatever be the defacto position as per the 'convention', I do not agree that, just because the damages could be more far reaching, the basic fairness and logic of fixing liability or standards for arriving at compensation should be different for the Nuclear industry when compared with other industries.

In an earlier post (11 Dec 2009) somnath had cited the following document:
Civil Liability for Nuclear Damage from World Nuclear Association.

The same document (updated as of November 2009), says towards the end:
China is not party to any international liability convention {emphasis, mine} but is an active member of the international insurance pooling system. Its 1986 interim domestic law on nuclear liability corresponds with international conventions and the liability limit was increased to near international levels in September 2007. It is setting up a reinsurance arrangement with Russia which is more symbol than substance. {emphasis on 'interim' is mine, with a view to suggest that there is a possiblity that a domestic law could be suitably changed when the crunch comes}
Without China's participation, giving a "global" or "international" character to this "convention" may not be right. I would imagine that China has good reasons not to be a party, at least so far.
somnath wrote: Current levels of liability according to various conventions and laws seems to be in the 300-550 million dollar range, so our reported 450 million is not out-of-bounds at all.
In the final analysis, Government of India must look after the best interests of its citizens. In the event of an accident, one of the most affected are the people. And hence the liability should be based on per capita compensation and not just on the total quantum. In the countries pushing for adoption of the "convention", population density is much less than compared to India. So, if at all GOI is forced (or chooses) to swallow the convention, then, I would suggest that India must insist that the foreign operator or whoever else is held responsible, must match the per capita compensation as per the 'convention' not just total quantum of 300 or 500 million dollars. A share out of 450 million dollars may go a much longer way for the accident-afffected individual in those countries than in India. Cost of human life and limbs whether Indian or foreign must be same (even if we are today, some way from this ideal!) After all "energy planners" in India always like to compare, between India and other countries, "per capita consumption" of electricity; so also they should match "per capita compensation" arising out of an accident in a nuclear plant that produces that electricity :!:

If GOI decides that NPCIL should be made the sole scapegoat as operator of a foreign designed and constructed nuclear power plant, then the economics and cost of electricity sold from that plant, should be worked out on the basis of cost to NPCIL of insurance to cover the per capita compensation. In this case I feel the foreign plants may end up being too costly.

Then there is the suggestion that the liability could be wholly shifted to the foreign owner / operator by allowing him to set up and manage npps in Indian territory. This could very well happen, perhaps even on concessional terms. I already see signs of watered down site-selection criteria to enable foreign plants to be constructed. This would be the first step in the formation of the Second East-India Company :!:
arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arun »

French Ambassador to India, Jerome Bonnafont, says that talks have been accelerated for putting up two EPRS Reactors of 1,650 mw each at Jaitapur:.

Areva to begin talks with NPCIL for Maha N-plants
Locked