Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 09 Dec 2009 03:59

About 10 years ago, my wife had met a motorhama in one of dem BART bogies..Motorhama was from Kraachi, and they got to talking: family, husbands, arranged marriage etc. Wife mentioned that she had said before marriage that she would continue studies for MS in US. Kraachite snickered, said something about "yeah, yeah, we all say that", and asked nervously "Kya hua?". When my wife, a bit surprised by the disbelief, mentioned that nothing happened; she got her MS and was working, the woman was awestruck. Couldn't believe that it could happen after marriage, husband would allow it etc. This type of urban Indian middle class norm seems alien to them, and only seems attainable to the very top of society it looks like.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 09 Dec 2009 04:10

Whatever I have seen of the RAPE class is not impressive. They are arrogant, superficial, small minded, and behave like Gawaars (Thanks Mom). I am also sorry to say that the men are a bit vulgar. You will not see an Sri Sri's or Ammas emerging from there.
Is it something that existing prior to partition? I don't see any evidence of this kind of obnoxiousness from family that came from across the border.

Nehru in his autobiography makes one, albeit sufficiently caustic, remark about this class.

komal · Post by **komal** » 09 Dec 2009 06:16

Hari Seldon wrote:Re there being no major-major terror attacks in Yindia since 26/11, it has *nothing* to do with ISI generosity or TSPA benevolence towards Indians. Nothing.

They have not attacked yet likely because they could not, not because they would not. They had every reason to boil the water again - to spark tensions, to unite their collapsing polity, to pullback troops to the eastern border and so on.

Still, Jahil Hamid and Hamid Gul's words do ring clear - they have set in store something bigger than 26/11, they claim. The next 26/11 will put Dilli in a spot like little else, forced to choose - quantumn wave collapse only - Shcroedinger's cat is either dead or alive. Indo-Pak is either war or surrender.

After 26/11, Pakistan most likely expected that India would launch some kind of air raids on terror camps in POK (camps no doubt filled with expendables and key operatives relocated elsewhere). Surely, Pakistan even had trained operatives ready to wail on CNN and BBC about the civilian casualities caused by the Indian attacks. There would have been attacks on Indians in the UAE. Anti-India resolutions would have been introduced in the UN. The PRC would wax eloquently about the need for peace in the region and internation intervention to settle the Kashmir 'issue'. The ultimate goal Pakistan sought from that atrocity was to label India an agressor and Pakistan a victim and US/UK intervention in Kashmir.

Not sure what role if any the GOI has played in the escalation of violence in Pakistan since 26/11. IMHO, Pakistan feels that they can no longer discount the chance that the GOI will retaliate in kind for acts of terror. And that retaliation will include targetting the Pakistani establishment who GOI believes are involved in planning and executing terror. Pakistan never assumed that GOI would reject the Mahatma and follow an 'eye for an eye' strategy.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Dec 2009 06:34

I'm just thinking, "What could explain the anger against the army and the ISI?"

If you go back a few years (and for two decades before that) the Pakistani army/ISI had a cosy relationship with Islamic militias in which people were picked up for training, received a salary and families received their pensions when jihadis received their 72. This was not made possible by the dynamism of the Pakistani economy. It was made possible mainly by US largesse and drug money. The generals and ISI became richer but there was still money to trickle down.

The jihadis were told that dying for Islam is the right way and this was backed by real money that appeared both for fighting and by dying.

There is now (particularly after 26/11) a twin pincer squeezing of the Pakis by the US and India. It is the funding that I believe is getting squeezed. Add to that the misery of the jihadi groups who lose men and get nothing in return, while the Paki army and ISI are seen to be breaking their old promises.

There is a funny fractal recursive irony here - of the sort that might be expected to occur when there is a breakdown of an unwritten agreement between criminal groups. To repeat what I said earlier - the US helped the Pakis who created assorted jihadis for US wars and expected that the US would keep the money flowing while India was overwhelmed.

The US stopped funding the Pakis and Pakis kept feeding the jihadis. But the unhappy Pakis thought that they could slap the US by doing 9-11 (and some minor incidents before that). The US did not like being slapped and but tried to do a criminal bargain by telling the junior criminals - the Paki army that they would get money to rein in their jihadi proxies. Put those proxies went apeshit in India (and never failed to plot against the West). So the US (under Obama) has suddenly woken up and has reduced funding of the junior criminals (Pak army). Here comes the fractal recursivity I was talking about.. just like Pakistan slapped the US on 9-11 for letting them down - the jihadis are now slapping the Paki army for letting them down.

This is a fight between a Mafia within a Mafia. There is a split in the family. Inter-gang warfare in which the US (and the "Great Powers" of the world) have consistently supported one side of the mafia - the Pakistani army as if it was a legitimate nation state. Admitting this fact will be diplomatically damaging to the US so don't expect anyone to accept this very soon.

If the US funds the Paki army again - the jihadis will be back in action and attack India. Fortunately they will attack the US too. In any case Indian reactions will make it a safer bet for the jihadis to survive on the Afghan border.

JMT

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 09 Dec 2009 06:43

komal wrote: After 26/11, Pakistan most likely expected that India would launch some kind of air raids on terror camps in POK (camps no doubt filled with expendables and key operatives relocated elsewhere).

I don't buy this argument. Fact is that even when they sent 4000 piglets to occupy a considerable stretch of the Indian Himalayas, India didn't cross the LoC. Why would India cross the Loc for 10 piglets shooting up a hotel? Besides, India's case was made 1000% stronger by Kasab's capture, and I don't think that was part of their plan. If he were rotting in the morgue along with the others, there would still be the phrase "India alleges...., Pakistan denies...Deccan Mooj....Col. Prohit etc".

We shouldn't make the mistake of attributing great strategy to their "calculations". Quite simply, they just want to destabilize and terrorize India at all costs, and will keep trying to do so, secure under nuclear blackmail, 3.5 friends, plausible deniablility, and lack of will from India to absorb larger scale casualties and economic losses that any sort of cross LoC skirmish might entail. If India does even mildly "surprise" them with some sort of retaliation, they would have not planned for it at all, just as they were apparently surprised at India's use of the IAF in Kargil. Chidambaram has said that India has foiled 12 attacks, and from the likes of Headley or that other LeT piglet Madni who was caught in july in India, or the death-by-hair-dryer of an ISI operative, there is more quiet police work going on then is probably given credit for.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Dec 2009 06:48

The unravelling of the love story between the US (CIA and cold warriors), Pakistan and their jihadis has analogies that can be see on almost any day on the streets of any big Indian city.

In Bangalore:

Minister Thuggesh is supported by land mafia "Pistol" Seena. Pistol Seena's work is done by "Ziba" Fayaz. Minister Thuggesh gets implicated in a huge scam and loses power but owes Pistol Seena money. Pistol Seena uses his brother to arrange a plot using Ziba Fayaz to kidnap Thuggesh's son. Thuggesh tries to buy off Seena by telling him that he can get his money if he ditched Fayaz. Seena then stops protecting Fayaz who is now left high and dry. He is wanted in several cases and his sponsors have ditched him. He now has nothing to lose and he goes apeshit slitting the throats of both Seena's relatives and Thuggesh's relatives.

Replace Minister Thuggesh with the US
Replace Pistol Seena with Pakistan army
Replace Ziba Fayaz with jihadi groups/LeT/Taliban

.. and you have the exact story of the US, Pakistan and jihad.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 09 Dec 2009 06:49

shiv wrote: If the US funds the Paki army again - the jihadis will be back in action and attack India. Fortunately they will attack the US too. In any case Indian reactions will make it a safer bet for the jihadis to survive on the Afghan border.

JMT

And also attack Jewish targets too. It looks like as the radical Islam is growing in numbers, the jewish influence is increasing in wealth too.
The jewish lobby was non existent in US before WWII and now its omni-present.
Slowly realization is coming that radical islam is enemy of all and even is an enemy of itself like a snake eating its own tail.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Dec 2009 06:52

Karna_A wrote: And also attack Jewish targets too. It looks like as the radical Islam is growing in numbers, the jewish influence is increasing in wealth too.
The jewish lobby was non existent in US before WWII and now its omni-present.
Slowly realization is coming that radical islam is enemy of all and even is an enemy of itself like a snake eating its own tail.

Check my story. Jews are relatives of Thuggesh, who despite is involvement in scams is a loyal member of the Damgress party which is in power in the center.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 09 Dec 2009 06:52

^^^^ OT but the Jewish Lobby was extremely strong immediately before WWII

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 09 Dec 2009 07:20

Bill Roggio in LWJ on the Multan Blasts

He refers to the warnings given by Hakeemullah Mehsud earlier -

"Residents should leave the cities of Islamabad, Rawalpindi, Lahore, and Multan," Hakeemullah said, warning that government institutions will be targeted

Also this attack was not a 'dumb' suicide bombing. Parts of the assault team engaged the security personnel, and there was usage of guns, grenades, in addition to a car bomb. Similar to the Rawalpindi mosque attack. The only thing different from Mumbai is the car bomb?

Members of the assault team dismounted from a white van and engaged security guards at a checkpoint outside the Army building, according to the Associated Press of Pakistan.
"Security personnel tried to stop a white pick up approaching the post at Qasim Bela," APP reported. "One of the terrorists came out of the van and opened firing on the security personnel. Others threw hand grenades and blasted [from] the vehicle, leaving three security personnel dead."
Members of the terror assault team then entered the building and opened fire

Game changers happening?

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 09 Dec 2009 07:24

What lessons can India derive from the mess in Pakistan? I think we have a lot to learn

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 09 Dec 2009 07:26

^^^
Karma is a she dog. And the pakistanis are at the receiving end of her stick.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 09 Dec 2009 07:37

Strategy and war in Pakistan and Afghanistan

http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... fghanistan

On cue, the NYT editorial page joins in the fun, and urges Pakistani military and civilian leaders to realize that this war is for the nation's survival, and that more must be done in confronting the so-called Afghan Taliban. Well, I love a good lecture from the NYT any time I can get one, so I'm grateful for that. But let's deal with some of the questions that this set of events has engendered.

What exactly will it take for opinion-makers and decision-makers in the West to draw a connection between their strategies and the enormous physical toll on Pakistan? To be clear, I am not arguing for or against particular strategies. What am I arguing for is a comprehensive evaluation of the implications of various theories of war and conflict. The NYT and Obama administration both have a theory of this war, and that's fine; everybody does, and who's to say, prima facie, who's right and who's wrong? But surely -- surely -- there should be some allusion to what Pakistanis are going through right now? Some signal that the some two and half thousand deaths in the last two years, the nearly five hundred dead in the last two months, somehow, some way, factor into the calculus?

The NYT editorial comes close, when discussing why the military doesn't strike against the Taliban in Balochistan when it says "In part, they are hesitating because of legitimate fears of retaliation." But why, pray tell, are these fears legitimate? Doesn't the NYT bear some responsibility for educating its readers to explain what real retaliation looks like? Real numbers, perhaps? This is not a minor quibble, though it may look like it is to outsiders because I am picking apart at a sentence or two in an entire editorial. The central point remains that people simply have no clue about the lives lost in this war in Pakistan.

There are no candlelight vigils, no Facebook groups, and no Fareed Zakaria specials for Pakistani victims of militant violence. To some extent, this is the result of image problems. Pakistan is a "bad actor" in the international system, and as such, deserves little sympathy. After all, wasn't it Pakistan itself that gave rise to these groups in the first place? Indeed it was. But it is a strange moral and strategic compass that blames women and children shopping at Moon Market for the sins of GHQ and the ISI.

Do people understand that Balochistan is an entire problem unto itself? Newsflash, brainiacs at the NYT editorial board: there has been a low level civil war simmering in Balochistan since 2004. This follows the medium level civil war in Balochistan in the mid 1970s. Both times, the military went in, and both times, as the Pakistani military is wont to do, there wasn't a great deal of demonstrated concern for collateral damage.

Why do I bring this up? Because launching drone strikes in Balochistan, and the inevitable civilian casualties that will result, will exacerbate this problem in very serious and predictable ways. I feel stupid even writing this. But apparently it is needed. Here's how it will play out: Balochi grievances will congeal into both an anti-Pakistan narrative and an anti-anti-Taliban one. The storyline will be that the state has sold out Balochi land to foreign forces, when it wasn't even theirs to sell. Balochistan has long chafed under the hard-nosed attitude of Pakistani central governments, both military and civilian, toward provincial autonomy and federalism. Can you imagine how it will react if and when Pakistan gives the go-ahead for American drones to strike in Quetta? Or even less ambitiously, can you imagine the military making a foray into Balochistan again? At this time?

Get a clue, NYT.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 09 Dec 2009 07:46

Very nice Shiv-ji,
I would like to add.
The jehadi groups work under the safety and security provided by the big dada in Pakistan, the Pak Fauj. All these jehadi leaders look up to the Pak fauj Jernails and have this sense of recklessness about them. This is analogous to a pet dog who will bark at the neighbors confident that his master is standing a few feet behind him.

Now come 26/11 as also the parliament attack. The master - Pak Fauj, is browning its pants and has let the jehadi groups to fend for themselves for a few days. Add to this Musharraf actually has to go on air to apologize and promise to reign in and eliminate the jehadi groups.

Isn't there going to be a loss of the sheen around the master's persona, if the master is going to put his tail between his legs the moment the Indians threaten to bash him up? There is a lot of bitterness that will be building up within the ranks of the LET, the way Zaki-ur-rehman Lakhvi and Zarrar shah have been cast away. Even hafiz-e-pig is not amused, given the extra fiery speeches he has been giving recently.

The Pakistanis are sitting on a powder keg. Their own jehadis are restless:
1. The top jehadi leadership it seems has been cast away, might get to go to jail (While they thought they were doing allah's work and therefore felt entitled to heavenly rewards here on earth)
2. The pak fauj - the master, it seems is not as strong as they thought he is. The faujis are also getting killed like pigs in mosques by people who are more faithful than the faujis. Besides the fauj is seen as grovelling in the presence of the kufr Amreeka.
3. There has not been a terrorist attack on India for a long time. The jehadis are trained and ready, and the Pak fauj is holding them back.
4. The rumor mills must be on an overdrive. There must be suspicions of how much the fauj has agreed to cut off the jehadis in a deal with massa.

Result:
1. The jehadi groups will lash out at the pak fauj at some point.
2. For sheer survival, the Pak fauj will have to reestablish its credentials by an attack on India.
Which as we know is a question of when and not if.

But this does leave openings that the koofer powers can exploit if they want to.

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Dec 2009 07:54

people the humility I saw

Don't know what Mohtarhama Naqvi was smoking in Dilli. Must have been some pretty strong stuf.

Humility and Dilli . Why pigs will fly before that. In a city and with a culture that is crude, lewd, very rude and extremely uncouth, that is the last thing anyone would associate with Dilli.

Mumbai despite all it's daily challenges with quality of life is atleast civilized and cultured. Dilli if anything is difined by a singular lack of both.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 09 Dec 2009 07:57

shiv wrote:If you go back a few years (and for two decades before that) the Pakistani army/ISI had a cosy relationship with Islamic militias in which people were picked up for training, received a salary and families received their pensions when jihadis received their 72. This was not made possible by the dynamism of the Pakistani economy. It was made possible mainly by US largesse and drug money. The generals and ISI became richer but there was still money to trickle down.

The jihadis were told that dying for Islam is the right way and this was backed by real money that appeared both for fighting and by dying.

There is now (particularly after 26/11) a twin pincer squeezing of the Pakis by the US and India. It is the funding that I believe is getting squeezed. Add to that the misery of the jihadi groups who lose men and get nothing in return, while the Paki army and ISI are seen to be breaking their old promises.

Pakistani jihadi activities expanded throughout the 1990s, even as US funding fell to life-support levels.

It was Gulf Arab money that was absolutely vital - particularly for the Taliban's expansion.

Post 9-11 the opiates trade has boomed to new levels, and American money flows to Pakistan greatly expanded.

Of course the PA used most of the money to buy yet more conventional weapons, expand its nuclear deterrent and associated infrastructure, and of course to pad its own pockets.

The only real squeeze has been in Gulf funding. Not only has Saudi Arabia's funding come under Western pressure, jihadi attacks within KSA 2003-06 on both expats and the government have led to a re-evaluation of their support for jihadis as their key plank in building Saudi influence over the Muslim world.

One result is that Jihadi organisations are now much more likely to use extortion and kidnapping to secure funding. Businesses, NGOs, media organisations all often have to pay protection money in Af-Pak, and kidnappings are not always reported because settlements are reached quietly.

While this does not necessarily make jihadi tanzims 'angrier' at the PA, it does reduce PA leverage. It used to be that PA control over Gulf funds allowed them to play kingmaker - now that those funds are smaller, and groups are making their own money things are changing. The number of groups that the PA still holds the purse strings over seems to have shrunk - the LeT (which has some of the strongest links to Saudi Arabia of any Pakistani tanzim) is still the group the PA has the strongest control over, and perhaps HM, JeM and Quetta Shura are next in that order.

The anger, Shiv is not that hard to understand. It has everything to do with the fall of Kabul and Kandahar in 2001 under a hail of American bombs, the round-ups and renditions to Guantanamo, the endless Predator strikes, and PA attacks on jihadis in the Red Mosque, in Wana, and Swat. All of these murders of thousands of faithful jihadis and their families facilitated by the smiling generals in Islamabad, Rawalpindi and Peshawar for money from the second worst kafirs in the world. As long as the PA allows the Americans to hit the jihadis, the jihadis will hit the PA. The Deobandis are determined to raise the price of opportunism and collaborationism to unbearable levels.

The more the Americans make the PA do, the worse the retaliation from the jihadis. Its a simple equation, which the generals understand well. Now that the Pakiban is ordering all the residents of Islamabad-Rawalpindi out for their own safety as the Pakiban wages war, as you said earlier, its not inconcievable that they might use a WMD there if they get their hands on one.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Dec 2009 08:02

vina wrote:
people the humility I saw
Don't know what Mohtarhama Naqvi was smoking in Dilli. Must have been some pretty strong stuf.

Humility and Dilli . Why pigs will fly before that. .

Compared with Pakiland boss. Compared with Pakiland. You can compare Mt Everest with Mt Blanc and think the latter is modest and humble. But compare the Mont Blanc of Delhi with the molehill of Mumbai and we have a different paradigm.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Dec 2009 08:14

Johann wrote:Now that the Pakiban is ordering all the residents of Islamabad-Rawalpindi out for their own safety as the Pakiban wages war, as you said earlier, its not inconcievable that they might use a WMD there if they get their hands on one.

This is precisely the sense that I got from reading that statement.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Dec 2009 08:22

Indo-Russian Take

Terming the distinction between the good and bad Taliban “facile and false,” Ms. Rao said both New Delhi and Moscow felt that such a difference just did not exist.

Russia and India also felt the need for effective tackling of the situation in Pakistan because terrorism of the kind being witnessed in the region was interconnected.

On Monday, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev spoke about the inter-relationship between militancy in Afghanistan and the situation in Pakistan, and admitted that the situation on the borders of both India and Russia was volatile.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Dec 2009 08:23

Gagan wrote:
Isn't there going to be a loss of the sheen around the master's persona, if the master is going to put his tail between his legs the moment the Indians threaten to bash him up? There is a lot of bitterness that will be building up within the ranks of the LET, the way Zaki-ur-rehman Lakhvi and Zarrar shah have been cast away. Even hafiz-e-pig is not amused, given the extra fiery speeches he has been giving recently.

I think it was Hafiz Sayid or Lakhvi who was recently quoted as saying that the Mumbai killings were unislamic. This is a significant statement if it is read and used in the right way.

It is the RAPE and Pakistani army who have "used" and employed Islam for murder and terrorism and to achieve geopolitical aims. They used the same Islam to help the US and to please the Saudis. Survivors of the Mumbai massacre are strangely convinced that he Kasab types were just brainwashed kids. It is the people who do the brainwashing that need to be brought down.

That is why I believe it is right to strike while the iron is hot and start bringing down Pakistaniyat by asking if the Pakistani army is truly Islamic - and pointing to murders and massacres sponsored by the army in the name of Islam. If the RAPE/Army have to "hide" behind Islam, they will first have to show that the Islam they are hiding behind does not call for murder. In other words they have to help destroy Pakistaniyat themselves.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 09 Dec 2009 08:43

The PA is commanded by opportunists, and has been since Aslam Beg stepped down.

To understand what will happen next we have to identity the threshholds of the opportunists.

- what is the point at which they will stop cooperating with the Americans?
- what is the point at which they will go after the Pakiban without reservation?

The brass's direction depends on what they hit first.

One thing the PA must do, no matter what choice they make is re-establish control over their own ranks. They are *thoroughly* penetrated, and its a basic threat to their security and cohesion. Even a break with America will not be enough to repair that problem. The PA is going to have to purge its own ranks of committed jihadi minded fellows, and its going to have to start to do that amongst its own recruiting pool as well if the people in charge want to survive.

In addition the PA *must* blame India as the 'hidden hand' behind the Pakiban not only to deflect popular anger at the violence, but to maintain cohesion within the PA should they decide to act decisively.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2009 08:50

its quite likely a good bunch of recently retired ex-para regt/SSG types have hooked up with the jihadis. given the right kind of info from sleeper cells within
the establishment, these types *can* assassinate top political and military leaders.

for the regular daily dal-roti car bombs and suicide belts there is ample bench strength.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 09 Dec 2009 08:52

GD,

Off the top of my head, I can name several SSG men in jihadi mid to top ranks.

You have Ilyas Kashmiri of the HuJI, Major Basit and Capt. Khurram of LeT and then HuJI. You have that jawan who blew himself up in the SSG mess at Tarbela, although he was a footsoldier.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2009 08:55

I think they have enough elites now to form hit teams and even platoons not just inspirational squad leaders and spine stiffeners.

the worrying part is if somehow PA is able to turn this lot to ops in India again, they can cause far more damage than kasab and his bum chums.

but I doubt PA can turn them....they are out to take over from PA. Mashallah only
after the caliphate is established will the caliph think of raiding neighbour kingdoms.

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 09 Dec 2009 09:04

Meanwhile, Pakistan's war against Taliban going badly a report by Tahir Ali, from Islamabad in Rediff

He attributes the spate of fatwas to failure of the offensive.

As the wave of terror attacks continues across Pakistan, the government is mulling every possible solution to end the bloodshed, and may even consider a peace deal with the Taliban in South Waziristan.

RamaP · Post by **RamaP** » 09 Dec 2009 09:48

Singha wrote:I think they have enough elites now to form hit teams and even platoons not just inspirational squad leaders and spine stiffeners.

the worrying part is if somehow PA is able to turn this lot to ops in India again, they can cause far more damage than kasab and his bum chums.

but I doubt PA can turn them....they are out to take over from PA. Mashallah only
after the caliphate is established will the caliph think of raiding neighbour kingdoms.

Hello fellow BRFites....... This is my first post... Have been a long time lurker though......I have been observing this situation very closely and I feel strongly that the situation in TSPA has reached a critical mass. The insurgency in TSPA is almost resembling that of Iraq in 2007, with daily bombings and killings. Also, I am thinking about the socio-economic class conflict taking a violent form in South Punjab....with the average Pakjabi ,living in rural areas in pathetic conditions, collaborating with Taliban and taking on the PA. We all know about how land laborers joined the Taliban and fought the jagirdars in SWAT before seizing power.....

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 09 Dec 2009 09:55

shiv wrote:I think it was Hafiz Sayid or Lakhvi who was recently quoted as saying that the Mumbai killings were unislamic. This is a significant statement if it is read and used in the right way.

No Shiv-ji,
If I am right about the incident you are referring to --SSridhar-ji gave the correct interpretation. HS said that "Suicide attacks are unislamic". SSridhar-ji gave the correct interpretation that LeT attacks are usually not soosai bum explosive type, but "shoot till you attain shahadat" type, which is not exactly suicide. HS and LeT favors the latter approach against the Kafirs because the act of Soosai will preclude the pious getting their 72. However, If they get killed during attacks (without attempting soosai) they get 72, if they live they become ghazis.

This got reported in the Paki media as

ZOMG !!! HS AGAINST SOOSAI ATTACKS !!! HS MAKES LIBRUL BROGRESSIVE ISHTATEMENT !!! BAKISTAN HOLLAND NOW EQUAL EQUAL !!!

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 09 Dec 2009 10:49

Rangudu,

Ilyas Kashmiri has very close connections to the ISI and SSG. However, what I've heard of his biography it seems fairly certain that he was not a commissioned officer. Although he received SSG training, for the same reasons its also questionable whether he was ever a serving member of the Pakistan Army, even as an enlisted man.

In fact, I'm not even entirely sure Kashmiri is really anti-PA. Alevi's family and friends believe the PA itself commissioned his assassination which is likely given his threats to expose PA deal-making with the Pakiban. Ilyas Kashmiri has been publicly connected to Mumbai which was a PA-sanctioned operation. His loyalties seem to lie with Mullah Omar and the Quetta Shura, not the Mehsuds or the anti-PA commanders of the TTP. For those and other reasons, I believe Kashmiri is the PA's hedging bet, someone they have an interest in painting as the opposition.

Regardless, the larger point remains - there are officers from the SSG and ISI fighting with the jihadsi. Some retired normally, and others were forced out or resigned their commissions because of their loyalties. There are formerly loyal jihadis from the LeT who have broken and gone over to those who actively attack the PA without restraint.

For their own survival, the opportunists of the PA are going to have to clean house within the Army and plug the leaks, regardlesss of any other choices they make.

gandharva · Post by **gandharva** » 09 Dec 2009 10:57

Lahore bombing toll rises to 54

LAHORE: The death toll in Monday’s bombing at Moon Market in Lahore’s Allama Iqbal Town has climbed to 54. A Rescue 1122 spokesman on Tuesday said of the 54 people, 28 were men, 11 women and six were children. Nine people were burned beyond recognition. More than 150 people were injured in the attack, he said. The spokesman said rescue teams took 54 bodies to mortuaries in Mayo and Jinnah hospitals while the injured were taken to Shaikh Zayed Hospital, Lahore General Hospital, Farooq Hospital, Mayo Hospital and Jinnah Hospital. app

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 2009_pg1_3

Taliban to take on army in January: Hakeemullah

LAHORE: The Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) will take on the army when winter arrives in the tribal region, TTP chief TTP Hakeemullah Mehsud said in a phone call with CNN on Tuesday. “We will wait till January for our offensive since we are stronger during the snowing season,” Hakeemullah said. He said he was confident despite the large-scale military operation currently targeting the TTP in South Waziristan. “We have conserved our energy and have not lost our morale,” he said. “The leadership of my organisation is safe,” he said, but he did not say where they were taking refuge. He neither denied nor confirmed that the TTP was responsible for Monday’s suicide blast outside the district court in Peshawar. “Being occupied in other matters, I have not been able to contact my colleagues there, so I will not be able to take responsibility at this time,” Hakeemullah said. Suicide bombings have intensified this year as the military pursues offensives against Taliban strongholds across the northwest. The past three months have seen a fierce surge in attacks, including a suicide bombing on October 28 in a Peshawar market killing 125 people. daily times monitor

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 2009_pg7_9

It’s lamentable if India is behind attacks, says Nawaz

LAHORE: It is regrettable if India is behind the terror attacks in Pakistan, Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) chief Nawaz Sharif said on Tuesday.

“If India is involved, the government should make public proof of its involvement”, he said while talking to the media after visiting Sheikh Zayed Hospital to inquire about the health of those injured in Monday’s bomb blast at Moon Market. He said Prime Minister Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani had also informed him about India’s involvement in terror attacks in Balochistan and other parts of the country.

Nawaz said that Pakistan would not step back against terrorists at any cost, and would do all it takes to eliminate attacks.

During his visit to the hospital, Nawaz Sharif advised the health officials to ensure proper facilities to the injured, and prayed for their early recovery. app

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 009_pg7_26

Lahoris refuse to be cowed by terrorism

LAHORE: Notwithstanding the fear that has gripped some in the wake of a deadly attack in the provincial capital, Lahoris turned up in numbers at the blast site in a bid to denounce terrorism and express solidarity with the victims of the twin blasts.

While there were tears in the eyes of those visiting the blast site, Moon Market, on Tuesday, all of them said their spirits were high and “terrorism can’t cow down the nation”.

Daily Times talked to several people at the blast site, and most of them held India and the US responsible for the attacks. Although they censured the Taliban, they did not pin responsibility for the twin blasts on the group.

A group of angered citizens also demonstrated near Moon Market, shouting slogans against the US and India.

Ashfaq, one of the protesters, told Daily Times that such attacks could not frighten the nation. He said the rush of people at the market the day after the attack was a “slap in the face of those responsible for the loss of life ...it shows we, as a nation, are determined to face this challenge together”. “Pakistanis are not cowards ... it is the terrorists who are cowards, as they are targeting women and children,” he said.

Muhammad Mushtaq – a trader at Moon Market – told Daily Times shops had been shuttered to express solidarity with the victims, rather than out of fear of more attacks. He said that quarters from “some enemy country” must have been involved in the attack.

Meanwhile, routine life continued in the city: the attack did not affect the rush of traffic or attendance at schools and government offices.

But while there is optimism, there is also concern.

“Bloodshed is spreading in the city, people are afraid and worry about their future,” a citizen told AFP. “Life is becoming miserable, there is fear and threats to our life everywhere ... we are very worried about our children – we feel restless until they come back from school.”

“You never know when the curse, the terror will hit and where. I lost several friends in the Moon Market bombing. Just 15 minutes before the blasts, I passed through that market,” said Suhail Iqbal, a 48-year-old filmmaker. “Now the militants are targetting women and children. They want to destroy our families and it makes me worried, everybody is worried.”

Tahir Kamran, who heads the history department at Government College University, told AFP in an interview militants were targeting Lahore because they wanted to destabilise Pakistan.

“Lahore is very, very important. In many ways it’s more important than Islamabad and Karachi because of culture, because now it has become the knowledge centre – opinion is formed mostly from Lahore,” he said. rana tanveer

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 009_pg13_6

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 09 Dec 2009 11:03

Johann wrote:Rangudu,

Ilyas Kashmiri has very close connections to the ISI and SSG. However, what I've heard of his biography it seems fairly certain that he was not a commissioned officer. Although he received SSG training, for the same reasons its also questionable whether he was ever a serving member of the Pakistan Army, even as an enlisted man.

If this was true, it would make the US military extremely concerned as well. For one thing, the SSG does cross-train with US Special Forces. Wouldn't want information about SOF tactics reaching other people.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 09 Dec 2009 11:04

A Rescue 1122 spokesman on Tuesday said of the 54 people, 28 were men, 11 women and six were children. Nine people were burned beyond recognition. More than 150 people were injured in the attack, he said.

How terrible. I see no way in which the pious can retain popular support if they continue these kinds of random attacks on the public. The Talibs likely know this and hence have been quite restrained in pinpointedly attacking only military,gubmint and security targets thus far.

But the TSPA also knows this. Hence, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the PA is launching these attacks in public markets in order to discredit the TTP. Check if water hoses were used to clean up later at these sites...

Someone above mentions that Yindia is throwing away qualms in paying TSP back in its own coin and hence we see enhanced terror activity within TSP. IMHO, its unlikley Yindia has a hand in the mayhem (I doubt our agencies are that barbaric). However, one area where IMO our agencies canpayback TSP in its own coin is in getting into the TTP's hands a printing press for fake paki currency notes. Now wouldn't that be just desserts given that TSP has been desperately and repeatedly trying to push FICN into our country?

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 09 Dec 2009 11:05

One hears of retired pakistan army men involved in terror training etc.
Question to be asked is, when did the pakistan army men retire?

Did they retire when their lid was blown. do they retire just before they are assigned terror training. or is it a post-retriement hobby.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 09 Dec 2009 11:05

Confirmation that the "sensitive office" involved in the Multan blast was indeed the ISI HQ.
Quick single in Multan - 12 dead

[edit]News about it was reported 2 pages back as an unnamed "sensitive office" or some such -- edited accordingly[/edit]

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Dec 2009 11:18

gandharva wrote:

“Lahore is very, very important. In many ways it’s more important than Islamabad and Karachi because of culture, because now it has become the knowledge centre – opinion is formed mostly from Lahore,” he said. rana tanveer

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 009_pg13_6

How is that

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Dec 2009 11:30

Johann wrote:Ilyas Kashmiri has very close connections to the ISI and SSG. However, what I've heard of his biography it seems fairly certain that he was not a commissioned officer. Although he received SSG training, for the same reasons its also questionable whether he was ever a serving member of the Pakistan Army, even as an enlisted man.

Johann, I am not sure if he was an officer of the SSG, but he was an enlisted member of the SSG when he served in Afghanistan where he lost an eye in an operation.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Dec 2009 11:33

Guys-> why dont we send a peace delegation from India at this time to Lahore made up of

1. 100 Bollywood celebrities- Bhatts, nandita das et al
2. 100 esteemed rights activists- A Roy, T Sevelatnad, R Guha, maoist supporters et al
3. 100 eminient Journalists- all Majoir english TV presenters
4. 100 emininent MPs- scions, karats, yadav's etc.

Wouldn't this be a nice time to talk peace. Peace int he subcontinent should not be cowed down by extremists trying to provoke a war between India and Pakistan as stated by one Quereshi.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Dec 2009 11:33

AdityaM wrote:One hears of retired pakistan army men involved in terror training etc.
Question to be asked is, when did the pakistan army men retire?

Did they retire when their lid was blown. do they retire just before they are assigned terror training. or is it a post-retriement hobby.

AdityaM, while some PA personnel (mostly officers) quit the PA job and joined the Taliban, those who joined the Punjabi Taliban were mostly 'conveniently retired' by the PA to maintain plausible deniability.

Vivek_A · Post by **Vivek_A** » 09 Dec 2009 11:38

Understanding the threat

SHIREEN M MAZARI(who else?!)

For Pakistan, the time has come to do a realistic assessment of its options within the prevailing scenario and the Obama strategy. For there are viable options for Pakistan which it has not yet explored properly, but first it needs to realise what it confronts. A major part of Obama's strategy will be operationalised in the Pakistani context. The US has already declared that it cannot succeed in Afghanistan without Pakistan's support. So any failure will be laid squarely on Pakistan's doorstep, unless we can extricate ourselves from the flawed alliance with the US. Clearly, the US also wants to shift the centre of gravity of the war and thereby its international focus to Pakistan and away from the failures in Afghanistan. As happened in Cambodia during the Vietnam War, Pakistan is the new front which the US seeks to destabilise to achieve objectives which have little to do with 9/11 - but 9/11 provided the opportunity: the objectives being cutting Pakistan down to size and seizing control of its nuclear assets. The US does not wish to see any strong Muslim state so it is targeting both Pakistan and Iran.

It should be abundantly clear to the Establishment that they are the central target of the US and its strategic partner in this region, India. It is not merely a coincidence that the US removed its check posts along the Afghan side of the border with Pakistan just as the Pakistan military moved into South Waziristan. Nor is it merely a coincidence that Indian and US arms are flowing freely to the forces targeting Pakistani forces and civil society. The nature of the terror attacks has also qualitatively altered with a new focus on the military, its sensitive agencies especially the ISI and civil society at large. There is also a growing focus on Punjab which the US assumes, must be aroused for the military to do more of US bidding - traditional Indian analysis about Pakistan and its army! While suicide bombers are still wreaking destruction across Pakistan, there are growing remote controlled attacks using highly incendiary explosives - which Pakistan does not possess and apparently the US does. The blast in Peshawar on November 13, targeting a military organisation and the blast in Moon Market, Lahore, were not simply rough IEDs but devices comprising sophisticated material which has puzzled the Pakistanis since it is nothing they possess - and again the finger tends to point to the US and India (since India is still only in the process of destroying its chemical weapons). As for targets - military and civil society, with the Rawalpindi mosque (in the heart of the residential area of the military) and the Qasim Bela Multan target providing both simultaneously.

RamaP · Post by **RamaP** » 09 Dec 2009 11:48

The TTP is definitely having a strong training program for its cadres because earlier the attacks has transformed from driving an explosive laden car and blowing it up to conducting a sophisticated assault using commando style raids. I think the Taliban's Buner March earlier this year was a Psy-Op rather than any concerted invasion of sorts. A decisive game changer in this situation would be a mutiny/revolt by the foot soldiers of PA in a strategic location like Wah complex or other such sensitive sites. That would definitely give Uncle Sam a very strong reason to overtly move in...... The political dynamics of TSPA in coming weeks would give a fairly clear prediction....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2009 11:53

Wouldn't want information about SOF tactics reaching other people.

well entire battalion of SSG was used in ningarhar province etc to support tha taliban in their march to kabul and subsequent war with the tajiks.

the talibs and their offshoots certainly have all the SSG manuals they want and
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