Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

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Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Moody's Puts U.S., U.K. on Chopping Block
Moody's Investors Service says the U.S. and U.K. must prove they can whittle down their ballooning deficits to avoid threats to their triple-A credit ratings.

In a report released on Tuesday, Moody's set the two countries apart from other top-rated sovereign borrowers, calling them merely "resilient" rather than "resistant," a label it applied to Canada, France and Germany, where public finances are in better shape.

Moody's released the report as part of an effort, spurred by investor demand, to examine the creditworthiness of the world's most highly rated countries. There are 17 such "triple-A"-rated countries.
Didn't have the heart to reach out for the ROFL icon. Guess LOL will have to do. Moody threatening US and UK with downgrades? I mean :rotfl: really? Since when? Poor Moody must be really desperate to jack up its credibility, seems like. Entirely understandable that they have none. Sala, Moody's should be careful lest Al keeda be unleashed on the Moody HQ, at this rate. Don't M00dy know that AAA derives meaning from unkilo-Aunty, not vice versa. Mind it.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by amit »

Hari Seldon wrote:Moody's Puts U.S., U.K. on Chopping Block
Moody's Investors Service says the U.S. and U.K. must prove they can whittle down their ballooning deficits to avoid threats to their triple-A credit ratings.

In a report released on Tuesday, Moody's set the two countries apart from other top-rated sovereign borrowers, calling them merely "resilient" rather than "resistant," a label it applied to Canada, France and Germany, where public finances are in better shape.

Moody's released the report as part of an effort, spurred by investor demand, to examine the creditworthiness of the world's most highly rated countries. There are 17 such "triple-A"-rated countries.
Didn't have the heart to reach out for the ROFL icon. Guess LOL will have to do. Moody threatening US and UK with downgrades? I mean :rotfl: really? Since when? Poor Moody must be really desperate to jack up its credibility, seems like. Entirely understandable that they have none. Sala, Moody's should be careful lest Al keeda be unleashed on the Moody HQ, at this rate. Don't M00dy know that AAA derives meaning from unkilo-Aunty, not vice versa. Mind it.
Aha! Now that explains the broadside against Moody's in that Telegraph (UK) report on Dubai that I posted a few days ago.

Time to stock up on bhel puri and jhaal muri and a carton of Kingfisher! :rotfl:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Chinmayanand »

X-posting... a good watch ...

The Obama Deception
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

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Woman Who Invented Credit Default Swaps is One of the Key Architects of Carbon Derivatives, Which Would Be at the Very CENTER of Cap and Trade

No sh1t, Sherlock!

Anyway, we're entering an age when genuine innovation and vision, far from being appreciated and hailed and lauded is being denounced and reviled. Sample these reactions to speculative derivatives - CDSes...
According to top experts, risky derivatives were not only largely responsible for bringing down the American (and world) economy, but they still pose a substantial systemic risk:

A Nobel prize-winning economist (George Akerlof) predicted in 1993 that CDS would cause the next meltdown
Warren Buffett called them “weapons of mass destruction” in 2003
Warren Buffett’s sidekick Charles T. Munger, has called the CDS prohibition the best solution, and said “it isn’t as though the economic world didn’t function quite well without it, and it isn’t as though what has happened has been so wonderfully desirable that we should logically want more of it”
Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan – after being one of their biggest cheerleaders – now says CDS are dangerous
Former SEC chairman Christopher Cox said “The virtually unregulated over-the-counter market in credit-default swaps has played a significant role in the credit crisis”
Newsweek called CDS “The Monster that Ate Wall Street”
President Obama said in a June 17 speech on his plans for finance industry regulatory reform that credit swaps and other derivatives “have threatened the entire financial system”
George Soros says the market is still unsafe, and that credit- default swaps are “toxic” and “a very dangerous derivative” because it’s easier and potentially more profitable for investors to bet against companies using them than through so-called short sales.
U.S. Congresswoman Maxine Waters introduced a bill in July that tried to ban credit-default swaps because she said they permitted speculation responsible for bringing the financial system to its knees.
Nobel prize-winning economist Myron Scholes – who developed much of the pricing structure used in CDS – said that over-the-counter CDS are so dangerous that they should be “blown up or burned”, and we should start fresh
A leading credit default swap expert (Satyajit Das) says that the new credit default swap regulations not only won’t help stabilize the economy, they might actually help to destabilize it.
Senator Cantwell says that the new derivatives legislation is weaker than current regulation
But fear not - nothing can stop an idea whose time has come. As they say.
Now, Bloomberg notes that the carbon trading scheme will be largely centered around derivatives. Who is Blythe Masters?

She is the JP Morgan employee who invented credit default swaps, and is now heading JPM’s carbon trading efforts. As Bloomberg notes (this and all remaining quotes are from the above-linked Bloomberg article):
Masters, 40, oversees the New York bank’s environmental businesses as the firm’s global head of commodities…
As a young London banker in the early 1990s, Masters was part of JPMorgan’s team developing ideas for transferring risk to third parties. She went on to manage credit risk for JPMorgan’s investment bank.

Among the credit derivatives that grew from the bank’s early efforts was the credit-default swap.
Read it all. And despair.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Nandu »

S&P, Moody's and Fitch, while private organizations, have some statutory status in the US. In particular, there are US federal laws that recognize them as competent entities for credit rating, and requiring certain instruments to be rated at a high level by these organizations. In fact, that is where these companies originally derived their credibility from.

I seriously doubt they will risk their statutory status by daring to touch US sovereign rating.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

It was never in doubt that the CRAs would never dare touch the US AAA rating. UK, well, after a crash in UK-stan, maybe. But there are others out there that can be stomped to build and/or maintain reputation with..... kindly consider the case of....

Greece downgraded over high debt
Fitch cut ratings on Greek debt to BBB plus with a negative outlook. It is the first time in 10 years a leading ratings agency has given Greece a rating of below A grade.

Heavy selling of Greek stocks and bonds came amid fears that the country was heading for financial disaster unless politicians tackled dangerously high debt levels. Shares on the Athens stock exchange fell more than 6 per cent.
Well, now that Fitch has blazed the trail, can we have Muddi's step up to the plate please??
ramana
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by ramana »

When is it UK turn?
ramana
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by ramana »

WorldFocus TV had a segment on how the poor Dubai residents were back to fishing and even that is meager.
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

ramana wrote:When is it UK turn?
Sometime in the next few months to the next few years, seems like. Like the great Yogi Berra once said:
It's hard to make predictions. Especially about the future.
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

A great piece that I was unsure of where to put exactly. Turns out there is a tangential relation to topics in this thread. There've been posts on urban blight - on the declining state of affairs in a Detroit MI, a Jersey city or a Cleveland OH and why its not very promising in ekhanomic terms. And then we saw Slumdog millionaire burst forth with all the hype n pumping big media could muster.

In this piece in the Biz Std, Sanjiv Sanyal hits bulls eye by articulating precisely the difference between a Dharavi and an inner city Detroit.
Why are Indian slums “safe”?
Slums are not unique to India. Virtually every country has faced this problem in some form during its period of rapid development. The slums of New York and London were legendary in the 19th and early 20th century. However, we need to distinguish between urban decay and slums. Urban decay describes the condition of blight, hopelessness and abandonment that one sees in New Jersey, northern England or even in parts of Africa and Latin America. As writers like Jeb Brugmann have pointed out, Indian slums are not places of hopelessness but of enterprise and energy. Whether it is Mumbai’s Dharavi or Delhi’s “Lal-dora” villages, most Indian slums have a surprising variety of commercial activity, including shops, food vendors, garages and mini-factories.

Indeed, slums like Dharavi are remarkable in how safe and cohesive they are. Most readers of this article will be able to walk through the average Indian slum even at night without fear of being harmed. This is more than one can ask of down-town Johannesburg or Camden, New Jersey. Contrary to popular wisdom, inequality of income and wealth appears to have little impact on crime and social envy. Mumbai has many social schisms: Hindus versus Muslims, Marathi-speakers versus Hindi-speakers and so on. However, the city suffers little conflict between the rich and the poor despite having the most extreme differences in wealth and income.

This cohesion comes from the fact that migrants do not view slum-life as a static state of deprivation but as a foothold into the modern, urban economy. Life may be hard but, in a rapidly growing economy, there is enough socio-economic mobility to give most slum-dwellers hope and keep them hard-working, enterprising and law-abiding. This is being recognised even in China where leading intellectual Professor Qin Hui recently published a paper arguing that China needed more slums!
"being recognized in China"?? The CPC has always maintained the sanctity of growth above all else for the sake of upward mobility -> promise of a better life at least for the next generation --> social stability and 'harmony' (or is it harmoney?).

CPC well understands the genesis, synthesis and consequences of class-conflict in commieland.

BTW, lest misunderstanders insist on taking away the wrong messages...
What should we do about slums?
I am not arguing that slums do not need help. Clearly, we need to provide the urban poor with better sanitation, public health, education and so on. However, we need to rethink the framework of our interventions:

First, advocates of slum redevelopment should recognise that they are not just dealing with a housing problem but are tampering with a complex eco-system. Thus, plans need to allow for informal commercial activities, public transport, and so on. To the extent possible, the redevelopment projects should be phased in a way that the ecosystems are not killed in the name of progress.

Second, we need to understand that slums are about ease of entry, upward mobility and churn. This process should not be disturbed by indiscriminately handing out non-marketable property rights. Instead, public intervention should encourage a market for rental accommodation starting from basic dormitories. However, when it is deemed appropriate to give property titles to slum-dwellers, the rights should be marketable.

Finally, and very importantly, we should not expect slums in the largest cities to act as routers for all the hundreds of millions of migrants. This is why we need to think of the small mofussil towns as mini-routers for the regional job markets. As I have argued in an earlier column (“Small town India holds the key”, Business Standard, 11th June, 2009), we need to revive small towns as social and economic hubs.
Needless to say, read it all.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Am now becoming cautiously optimistic that the khanate may have turned the corner after all. Sample this:
Dec. 8 (Bloomberg) -- Optimism among chief executive officers about the U.S. economy rose to a one-year high as more said they expect stronger sales and plan to boost spending while limiting hiring.

The Business Roundtable’s economic outlook index increased this quarter to 71.5, the highest since July-September 2008, from 44.9 in the previous three months. Readings higher than 50 are consistent with economic expansion.
Wow, eh? Uncork the champagne! Turn up the music volume! Shower the confetti! Fire AKs into the air to celebrate! Bring in the dancing girls!
However, OTOH, maybe perhaps wait....
You would think that insiders would finally change their tune after almost a year of straight line gains in the market. Think again. The most recent insider trading data from finviz indicates that insider selling outpaces buying by a ratio of 82 to 1! In the most recent data set, $11.6 million in stock was purchased by insiders, while a whopping $957 million was sold. And somehow pundits are still spinning this mass orchestrated sell into the bid by those in the know as a bull market.
Would you say the said insiders know something we boor outsiders don't? Would you expect the same insiders to say anything less than soothing words and optimistic scenarios in the present situ? A clear cut case of see what the business leaders and CEOs do, not what they say, I say.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

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The Doomographers have now chosen to park in Euroland for a brief while to ensoi the climes there.

Greece Government Bond Tumble Fails to Entice Pictet, Frankfurt
The biggest drop in Greece bonds in more than a decade isn’t enough to entice some of Europe’s biggest fixed-income investors amid deepening concern the nation won’t be able to fix its deteriorating finances.

Frankfurt-Trust Investment GmbH, Smith & Williamson Investment Management and Pictet Asset Management, which manage a combined $100 billion, say they are not ready to buy even after the biggest tumble in two-year notes since 1998. Standard & Poor’s put the nation’s debt on watch for a downgrade two days ago, and Fitch Ratings followed yesterday by cutting Greece’s credit rating one level to BBB+ from A-.

S&P said two days ago Greece’s debt burden may climb to 125 percent of gross domestic product in 2010, the largest among the 27 European Union nations, and stay at that level or higher in the “medium term.” Fitch cited “concerns over the medium-term outlook for public finances given the weak credibility of fiscal institutions and the policy framework.{As opposed to the overly strong credibility and the pink-of-health finances UK-stani institutions have routinely enjoyed under Sri Brown's beneviolent leadership}
OK. We all knew Greece is circling the wagons, err, circling the drainhole. But wait!Isn't Greece in the ECU? How can it fail then, eh?
The European Commission “stands ready to assist the Greek government in setting out the comprehensive consolidation and reform program, in the framework of the treaty provisions for euro-area member states,” said Joaquin Almunia, who is in charge of economic and monetary affairs, in a statement late yesterday. He didn’t say what form any assistance could take.

Almunia’s comments come as investors debate whether EU governments would bail out Greece if it was unable to pay its bills. Former German Finance Minister Peer Steinbrueck said in February that euro members would “in reality” rescue states in difficulty. Almunia said yesterday Greece “is a matter of common concern” for euro nations, echoing language he has used since November. He didn’t elaborate further.

“The situation in Greece is very difficult,” European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet said Dec. 7. “We all know the figures, and we all know the very important, courageous decisions that have to be taken to put the situation back on track.”
Talk is cheap, Guv'ner. Put your euros where your mouth is and spell out, kindly of course, what course and recourse will you take when Greece inevitably topples over? Thank you in anticipation.

Meanwhile, Greece is but the teaser-trailer. The travails of eastern Europe and the exposure of some euro-stani banks to the threat from the east is causing rumbles even in tfta castles.
Fitch Ratings said Latvia and Lithuania’s sovereign ratings remain under “downward pressure” as the Baltic states’ economic plight sends their deficit and debt levels higher.

Latvia’s BB+ rating, the highest non-investment grade, and Lithuania’s BBB rating, two levels above junk, are more at risk of a downgrade than Estonia’s BBB+ rating, Fitch said in a statement today.

The Baltic states are suffering the deepest economic contractions in the European Union after their debt-fueled property bubbles burst and their governments forced through tough austerity measures.
But back to the big-picture for tfta eurodom.

The Levy Economics Institute of Bard College is asking Can Euroland Survive?
Social unrest across Europe is growing as Euroland’s economy collapses faster than the United States’, the result of falling exports and a weaker fiscal response. The controversial title of this brief is based on a belief that the nature of the euro itself limits Euroland’s fiscal policy space. The nations that have adopted the euro face “market-imposed” fiscal constraints on borrowing because they are not sovereign countries. Research Associate Stephanie A. Kelton and Senior Scholar L. Randall Wray foresee a real danger that these nations will be unable to prevent an accelerating slide toward depression that will threaten the existence of the European Union (EU).

Unlike the case where the U.S. federal government rescued New York State, however, the procedure to bail out a member state is unknown. The ECB is practically prohibited from taking over the debts of member states, and, although it is impossible to surmise what the ECB might do in a crisis, there is enough uncertainty to create the possibility of a (bank) run stemming from an individual member’s debt. And, as discussed, there is no central fiscal authority that has anything like the responsibility of the U.S. Treasury. Charles Goodhart (2006) summarizes the problem:

The federal institutions in the EU have neither the ability, nor the wish, to guarantee the deficits of the subsidiary state governments. The ECB is admonished not to support failing State governments, and there is no fiscal competence at the federal level either to make inter-regional transfers in response to asymmetric shocks or to support the ECB in meeting the burden of bailing out a failing State government. So the federal government in the EU neither can, nor wants to, carry out its part in the kind of implicit bargains observed in other federal systems.

Once markets begin to perceive a nation as a “weak” issuer, they can effectively shut down a nation’s ability to stabilize conditions within its borders. This is the fundamental weakness of the euro zone that we have warned about since its inception. This means that bonds issued by Greece, Portugal, Ireland, and Italy are perceived to be instruments with less liquidity than those issued by Germany, France, or Finland. Even though the government debt of all member states is homogenous in terms of denomination, bonds issued by the smaller countries “will not have the same liquidity as those of larger countries” (The Irish Times 2009).

On the one hand, we admire the willingness of the EU and Euroland to embrace its new members. On the other hand, we suspect that expansion has made the prospects for changing the structure of the union virtually impossible. Hence, there remains the possibility of a trend toward dissolution rather than greater unification.
Pls read the entire PDF report of 20 pages. Very well worth it, I must add. Euroland may well become the west's Dehra-doom.

Again, TIFWIW. Lotsa D&G to keep Doomography scholars (from the Doom school, no less) busy for the rest of the weak, err, week.
Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Meredith Whitney: The government is “out of bullets”

Whitney talks some rather interesting (and sobering) numbers to go with our D&G. Claims states are facing budget holes aggregating $500 bn, local gubmint spend==12% of GDP and more.

Post has an 8 minute video that's a recommended watch.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by ramana »

Hari, Maybe insiders want to cash out as soon as they see an uptick? Many high end homes in No Ca are on sale to benefit from the rise in home sales. Cash in hand versus appreciation in the future.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Najunamar »

Feds target rating agencies

As usual BRF is ahead of the curve.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Suraj »

Najunamar wrote:Feds target rating agencies

As usual BRF is ahead of the curve.
Next thing you know, S&P, Fitch and Moody's will downgrade the SEC :)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Neshant »

I'm surprised investors who were sold hundreds of billions of dollars of junk bonds rated as AAA investments have not taken these rating agencies to court for fraud on a gigantic scale.

These jokers should be behind bars yet they go on operating as if nothing happened.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by ramana »

Deutsch Welle Journal was saying Dubai World had another round of defaults.

Today the TARP was extended to October 2010. So Neel Kashkari did do a good job of saving the US financial system. There were a few mis-steps on the way - not anticipating bankers greed, but on the whole it was successful.

When do you think those jokers in Congress will thank him?

Fat chance!!!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by amol.p »

Spain credit rating downgraded to negative

Spain has had its credit outlook cut to negative from stable by the ratings agency Standard & Poor's.

The agency said Spain faced a deeper deterioration in public finances and a longer period of economic weakness than it had previously expected.

The news rattled European markets, which were already unsettled by Tuesday's decision by another ratings agency, Fitch, to downgrade Greece.

Stock markets in London, Paris and Frankfurt all closed lower.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8405029.stm

Why not cut rating of entire EU nations instead one each time.... :mrgreen:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Chinmayanand »

Evans-Pritchard: Gold Could Hit $6,300

Financial columnist Ambrose Evans-Pritchard sees an “eerie similarity” of the move by India’s central bank to buy half the IMF’s entire sale of gold and the decision by France’s central bank to start converting dollars into gold 44 years ago. That was the “start of the slippery slope” leading to the closing of the U.S. gold window under Nixon.“In the gold mania that followed, the price rose to levels that matched the U.S. dollar monetary base,” writes Evans-Pritchard. “If that were to occur today after Ben Bernanke’s go at the printing press, gold would have to reach $6,300 an ounce.”
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Durgesh, link for th above, please? TIA.

Meanwhile, anger against the dlagon glows onlee.
Calls For Protectionist Retaliation Against China Rise
What is truly remarkable about two comments in the last two days in the august Financial Times, is that they both say protectionism against China is likely. One actually urges it, the other pretty much says it’s a-comin’ unless China mends its ways. And both pieces were written by reputable economists, the last people you’d expect to be talking about trade barriers as a last ditch option.

But as the articles suggest, China’s intransigence has gone so far that a pushback is inevitable unless something gives, and China has signaled that it has no intention of blinking.

The overly cheap peg for the renminbi is tantamount to having both large export subsidies and substantial tariffs in place. Even though China’s partners have various favored industries here and there, the scope and scale of these interventions pale next to what China achieves through its currency manipulation. Of course, the US has aided and abetted this practice by being unwilling to call China a currency manipulator long ago, before they got so deeply hooked on massive exports and the US became addicted to cheap capital.

But as the sabre-rattling from Robert Aliber yesterday and Martin Wolf today suggests (hat tip reader Michael), relationships come under serious stress in bad times. Yet China seems determined to repeat the mistakes of the US with Smoot Hawley in a different form. China maintaining its peg against the dollar has bettered its position against other exporters (witness the collapse in the Japanese trade surplus in particular) and the US needs the dollar to fall relative to the RMB (as in that is our biggest imbalance, ergo, that is where the adjustment most needs to occur).
...
The US will not be able to deleverage (absent explicit default) unless we move to a trade surplus. As long as we run a current account deficit, we need to run a capital account surplus. That means (if the deficit and therefore corresponding surplus are more than trivial) rising levels of debt, and high odds of speculative asset bubbles.
You go, girl!

Martin Wolf in FT waxes eloquent on the systemically globally yellow-matter peril the gentle cheenese are engendering
China’s exchange rate regime and structural policies are, indeed, of concern to the world. So, too, are the policies of other significant powers.

What would happen if the deficit countries did slash spending relative to incomes while their trading partners were determined to sustain their own excess of output over incomes and export the difference? Answer: a depression.

What would happen if deficit countries sustained domestic demand with massive and open-ended fiscal deficits? Answer: a wave of fiscal crises.

Neither answer is acceptable; we need co-operative adjustment.{Yup. And good luck with that.} Without it, protectionism in deficit countries is inevitable.
We are watching a slow-motion train wreck. {Hear! Hear!}
We must stop it before it is too late.{It is too late birader. Welcome to the real world}
Read it all.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by shyamd »

Betting that Dubai Holding, a company owned by HH sheikh Mo, will shortly find itself unable to pay its debts like Dubai World, several hedge funds have retained corporate intelligence firms to conduct in-depth inquiries into the firm’s assets.

Dubai crisis getting bigger? Apparently, the Dubai case was a case of "Can't pay" rather than "won't pay", I am told.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by shravan »

^ Its only $12 billion. Dubai Holding has $1.8 billion due for repayment next year.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Matt Talibi in Rolling stone totally flays the Obama admin on its economic policies

Well, so what, one may ask. So many such essays populate the web, after all.

Sure, but not every such essay is by Matt Tabibi. Recommended read only.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by shravan »

House leader says government needs to borrow at least $1.8 trillion more

By Lori Montgomery and Ben Pershing
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, December 11, 2009; 12:18 PM

House Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.) said Friday that the government needs to borrow at least $1.8 trillion more next year to avoid defaulting on its debts.

Such an increase in the nation's debt ceiling is much larger than Democrats had contemplated earlier this year.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Ameet »

prad wrote:situation in Greece should be watched closely. EU now faces its first real test as to its resiliency. if confidence in Euro, the primary pillar on which the entire concept of a European Union is based, collapses then the existence of EU itself might be in jeopardy.

if Greece defaults, investors will ask the question: if some members of EU can't pay their debts and nobody else is allowed to intervene, then what is the point in having a Euro currency in the first place?

^^^the above is the reason that i believe, if sh** hits the fan, the europeans will find some "loophole" and come to Greece's aid. the other option of doing nothing can spell an end to the Union itself.
Ireland, Greece May Leave Euro, Standard Bank Says
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... Mkt.e8ujIo

Greece and Ireland are among countries in an “intolerable” economic situation, which may lead to bailouts or even an exit from the euro area by the end of next year, according to Standard Bank Plc.

The widening difference in yield, or spread, between Greek and Irish bonds and German securities may accelerate, increasing the debt burden for these countries, he wrote in a report today. The Irish-German 10-year spread may rise to 300 basis points next year, from about 170 basis points, he said. The spread averaged about 43 basis points in the past five years, with the Greek-German average at 67 basis points in the period.

Greek yields soared this week after a cut in the country’s credit by Fitch Ratings, which said Prime Minister George Papandreou’s government doesn’t grasp the debt crisis’ severity.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^ Yes, it makes eminent sense to do so. UK-stan for instance is part of the EU but not part of the common currency zone. Greece and Ireland (and soon, I suspect - Spain and Portugal) cand and will leave the eurozone while retaining schengen membership.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by amol.p »

prad wrote:the real answer to the deficit problems of EU nations is a long term plan for spending cuts and tax cuts. they have to stimulate demand and cut off on those cradle-to-grave welfare programs == tax cuts, spending cuts.

but the problem with spending cuts is EU population feels entitled to such welfare treatment, so there will be massive social unrest. tax cuts are good for increasing aggregate demand but to do so without decreases in spending will only push them further into deficit.

the way i see it, the aging population would have brought Europe to the same situation perhaps a decade from now, but the semi-depression has fast-forwarded that to now. situation will only get worse for EU in the coming years, increasingly they will have to tax the ever declining labor forces of their countries to keep up with the welfare programs. but that can't be sustained indefinitely. eventually all roads lead to the same destination: a significant retreate from the cradle-to-grave welfare programs.

aka massive spending cuts within the next few years == aggregate demand will take a hit == if it's a global phenomenon, then it's fine; if not, then a major Depression is inevitable for Europe.

^^^ keeping the above in mind, Europe will increasingly do everything it can to wall off PRC. meanwhile, if PRC continues with currency manipulation and exporting deflation, other countries including US and ASEAN nations might soon start raising their voices too.

Prad.....the main problem is ageing population. As per statics any population rate below 1.8 that civilizations growth will end in 50 years. Itlay has 1.3, Spian has 1.6 and avg EU has 1.6. The real problem is no tax paying young generation is available in EU. If they wish to sustain only option is to allow migrants to swoop across EU...which I dont think they will allow.

There is a very good video on Youtube - Islamic Demography....where in they have show how the ISLAM does not need to fire a single bullet to conquer EU as by 2030 there will be 52 million Muslims in EU more than population of Goras.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^errr, amol.p bhai.

I well know this is a have-fun dhaaga and is not meant to be taken terribly seriously but still, from a basic thread-integrity standpoint, kindly edit your post above. It contains some rather glaring inaccuracies, IMHO, and is based a rather suspect source - an EJ scare-video. And this is from an unapologetic doomographer.
As per statics any population rate below 1.8 that civilizations growth will end in 50 years. Itlay has 1.3, Spian has 1.6 and avg EU has 1.6.
Its the average fertility rate to be precise. In another few yrs, under a doomography scenario, an entire generation of euro-natives will be under-born (i.e. generational strength required to maintain culture) will be lacking. Dunno where from you can ramp up production to fill the void.
The real problem is no tax paying young generation is available in EU. If they wish to sustain only option is to allow migrants to swoop across EU...which I dont think they will allow.
And what will they do if they don't allow. An ageing populace, so used to a cradle-to-grave welfare state that they've almost forgotten existence sans props, is precisely the wrong force to count on to fight vigorously for anything other than the same props to be extended a wee bit longer. The Mark Steyn hypothesis, of sorts.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by amol.p »

[quote="Hari Seldon"]^^^errr, amol.p bhai.

I well know this is a have-fun dhaaga and is not meant to be taken terribly seriously but still, from a basic thread-integrity standpoint, kindly edit your post above. It contains some rather glaring inaccuracies, IMHO, and is based a rather suspect source - an EJ scare-video. And this is from an unapologetic doomographer.

[quote]

Hi Hari.....there are no inaccuracies.....there is a program coming of FOX HISTORY...accent of money....mostly based on recent turmoil in markets worlwide. they have also said the the same thing. They have suggested italy will be the 1st country in EU that can face terrible challenge due to 1.3 of population growth.
Also to maintain long term growth & consumption without artificial money flow, standard population growth has to be 2.11.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Neshant »

I really hope dumb ass conmen ceos don't take over India's economy like they have in the US. What a fraud the whole federal reserve, banking & bullsh*tting industry is which takes from the real economy and allocates it to themselves for manufacturing nothing, discovering nothing, inventing nothing... except scams.


----

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/12/01/ ... ad-of-bon/

Goldman's call to arms: Bankers seeking gun permits ahead of bonus season

Goldman Sachs Group (GS) is at the focal point of the American public's rage against Wall Street -- and probably for good reason. The firm's former chief executives have populated the highest echelons of American government, which has turned around and given Goldman -- and its partner in the current financial collapse American International Group (AIG) -- billions of dollars in taxpayer money.

Now, as bonus season draws near, Bloomberg News reports that nervous Goldman Sachs partners are arming themselves. According to Bloomberg, some senior Goldman bankers are applying for gun permits ahead of the holidays for fear of the public's reaction once they start receiving their year-end rewards.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Amol.p, my beef is with this assertion that you made:
where in they have show how the ISLAM does not need to fire a single bullet to conquer EU as by 2030 there will be 52 million Muslims in EU more than population of Goras.
Really?? 52 mil moslems in EU will outnumber the native gora popn? By 2030?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

i am sure i am going to be flayed for saying this, but imvho, unfettered liberalism is not a progressive stage in the history of mankind. if anything, it is a decadent one. decadence in psychology, attitude, actions, etc.
I agree, with reservations. It is some hardship, some challenge, some uncertainty and some purpose that brings out the best in people and keeps them vigilant and healthy and fit as a society, as a nation and more broadly as a civilizational construct in the long (i.e. more than a few generations worth) time frame.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by sanjaykumar »

Worthy of Captain Kirk.

Only liberalism is an extremely demanding calling requiring self-discipline.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

Only liberalism is an extremely demanding calling requiring self-discipline.
How true. What passes for liberalism today is a different animal altogether.

Meanwhile, legalized insider trading, anyone??
"For a group often criticized for being out of touch with what's happening on Main Street, some argue Congress seems to be deeply in touch with what will soon happen on Wall Street, especially when compared to the average investor.

"If the question is -- are they using information that they're picking up in Congress to beat the market? The answer is absolutely," said Dr. Alan Ziobrowksi, a professor of economics at Georgia State University.

This may surprise you, but it's perfectly legal for both members of Congress and their staff to use inside knowledge about upcoming legislation to play the stock market.

For example, let's say Congress is quietly preparing to pass a bill that helps the dairy industry. Before the public is aware of Congress's intentions, our elected leaders and their staffer can invest in dairy companies that stand to benefit from the bill. Then, they can pass the bill and watch the stock take off. Critics call it a form of legalized insider trading.

Critics of Congressional investment practices point to a recent transaction made by Republican House Minority Leader John Boehner of Ohio. In September of 2008, when the economy was on the brink of collapse, the U.S. Treasury Secretary and Chairman of the Federal Reserve went to Capitol Hill to privately brief Boehner and other congressional leaders. At the time, one of the greatest economic dangers the country was deflation. One day after that meeting, records show Congressman Boehner pulled his money from a fund tied to inflation.

"It says to me he picked up some information and he tried to save himself a lot of money by dumping it as soon as he could," Dr. Ziobrowksi said. "And again, though, technically speaking, there is absolutely nothing illegal about that."

"I think the worse danger of course is that they're going to be passing and lobbying legislation on the basis of what's good for their portfolio rather than what's good for you and I," Dr. Ziobrowski said.
Wow, eh? Nice gig there onlee.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

There is no recovery

The Automatic Earth folks puncture cheenese claims of grand ekhanomic miracles in this thoughtful piece. Never mind that cheena bhakts and drones alike will vehemently disagree.
It would feel more consistent, since China of course has no genuine recovery either. Its exports are still falling, but its output rose 19.2%. In other words, the Chinese will have to buy their own products. Problem is, they don't feel like doing it. According to Michael Pettis, Chinese household consumption is 35% of its economy, vs 55-65% in Europe and 70-72% in the US. And its consumption isn't rising fast, if at all, either. What is rising are savings, presently at 26%, vs a negative savings rate in the US until recently. Pettis asks an intriguing question about China:
"Crises seem to drive the household consumption rate down, even though bull markets don’t seem to drive it back up. Is that because crises cause households to worry about risk (although if that were true they wouldn’t go permanently down, would they)? Or is it because the government responds to crises by increasing the amount of misallocated investment, the consequence of which is to reduce future consumption?"
So what would it take to drive Chinese consumption upwards towards levels that might sustain at least part of its economy if and when American and European export markets don’t rise from their ashes?
And later:
One thing should become clear now: China won’t be able to run its economy on domestic demand for many years to come. Until then, it will rely on western consumers, who are broke, and on government subsidies, i.e. consumption of its own flesh. Whatever the choice may be, a 19.2% increase in Q3 2009 output looks a lot like despair. Who will buy all that extra output? There are no extra clients anywhere on the horizon.

Just as is the case in the US, people like the Bloomberg reporter quoted above confuse government funding with credit. Of course, if you ask no questions, both may look pretty much the same. But that doesn’t mean they are. You can't be both the seller and the buyer of your own products and still claim you’re making a profit.

The Chinese are trying to kick-start economy with their own reserves. But once the engine runs, if it does, it’ll need somewhere to go, someone to purchase its products. That someone will have to have a trade surplus, i.e. money to spare. The Americans don’t have any. They are trying to kick-start their economy with borrowed money, which means they are increasing their already sky-high debt levels. Which is why Jim Rogers is dead-on when he says that there is no recovery, and things have only gotten worse in the past year.
More on the hole in which the khanate finds itself:
You wouldn't know it from looking at the stock markets yet, but if you imagine the economy as a closed system, which in the thermodynamics definition can exchange heat and work (energy), but not matter, with its surroundings, it becomes clear that whatever happens inside the system doesn’t solve any problems, but merely transfers wealth (heat) from one part of the system to the other. That is, while banks and investors have been making money over the past 6-month rally, someone else has been losing out.

To figure out who, you need look no further than the record numbers of American citizens who are unemployed, homeless and/or living on foodstamps. The system as a whole shows no recovery, just parts of it do due to increased misery in other parts. Moreover, what does enter the system from outside is borrowed money that needs to be repaid. This should also make clear why printing money cannot solve any of the existing problems. For one thing, America's largest creditor is China, which has its currency pegged to the dollar. No gains there.

In more general terms, much, if not most, of what is seen as wealth consists of nothing but leveraged bets. Which is how a home that cost $100,000 to build comes to sell for $500,000. This wealth will have to be deleveraged, until things are worth what they are, i.e. they have a price someone is willing and able to pay for them. In the absence of cheap and abundant credit, that is.{The genesis of deflation - of an accelarating series of extinguished claims which is what debt essentially represents - extinguished through default rather than repayment}

All countries are chasing the same remaining pieces of the pie, which can only be obtained by increasing one’s exports, or, more correctly and comprehensively, one’s trade balance. And since the world economy as a whole can also be considered a closed system, the only possible turn of events in this case too is wealth transfer. Which can be achieved, as noted, by an increase in exports, or possibly through warfare. It cannot be achieved by printing one’s own currency. That could function (temporarily, until hyperinflation sets in) only if the system were what thermodynamics defines as an isolated system, i.e. no exchange whatsoever with the outside world.
Needless to say, read it all. And yes, Jai Ho.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by Hari Seldon »

The economissed rag uvacha:

Ireland shows the rest of Europe what austerity really mean :(( :((

Well, big blother gleat blitain next door must be watching with jeebees for sure. Perhaps.
The budget came against the background of a sharp contraction in economic activity, far greater than that experienced in other euro-area countries. GDP is projected to decline by 7.5% in 2009 and a further 1.3% in 2010. An unemployment rate of 12% this year is at least showing some signs of stabilising. But consumer confidence remains weak and households continue to save more and to spend less, thereby depressing tax revenues. Next year, almost half of all income earners will pay no tax. In an effort to widen the tax base, the government proposes to introduce a new property tax.
Above consumer and business behavior is classic debt-deflation play only.
Brian Lenihan, in effect cut the pay of public-sector workers earlier this year by introducing a special 7% pension levy...

On December 9th Mr Lenihan presented his 2010 budget, inflicting even more pain by imposing steep pay cuts on public employees. This time, the response may not be quite so muted. The police are already threatening to defy a no-strike law in protest, and other public-sector workers are preparing to hold ballots on industrial action.
These measures mark the end of two decades of social partnership, based on a consensus approach to pay bargaining between government, employers and unions. Whether this will usher in a long period of industrial conflict will become clearer in the coming weeks. Public-sector unions are already giving warning of a sustained campaign of strikes. But in these hard times they may not win much support from the Irish public.
Dunno how much choice the much vaunted Irish public will have, ultimately. About as much as the Icelandic public had, I surmise.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown

Post by bart »

Hari Seldon wrote:The economissed rag uvacha:

Ireland shows the rest of Europe what austerity really mean :(( :((

Well, big blother gleat blitain next door must be watching with jeebees for sure. Perhaps.
Well, the Irish bhai-log are sort of like desis in that they are hard working folks with decent community ties. And they are no stranger to hardship and having to rebuild their lives, having struggled through the potato famine, colonial oppression by Britain and poor economic conditions for most of their existence, which is the reason why so many working class neighborhoods in the US are Irish.

Icelanders and other Scandinavians are again survivors, they can live off the land and fish and in general survive in isolation.

But what about the Eew Kay whose citizens are entitled to H&D and being pompous and bullying others as a legacy from the times when Britannia ruled the seven seas? They are in for a 'ab tera kya honga kalia?' moment. Ouch.

They are already looking for scapegoats. 30,000 people lost their jobs when Woolworths closed. But why fear, the anger can be directed towards Tata. Check out this hyped bullshit linking Tata with Rajendra Pachauri and a huge Indian scam to profit from climate change:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/colu ... edcar.html
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