LCA news and discussion

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Dec 2009 08:06

The 70's or even early 80's design included variable ramp/cone type intakes and the fact that Mig-21 and even Mirage used turbo jet engines helped achieve Mach2+ speed at altitude.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Dec 2009 08:21

Craig Alpert wrote: Is that number for Exports or for the Home country?? A couple of posts, earlier, someone made a comment on the French jet costing ~ $ 41-2 Mil a pop, well that's the price for export/upgrade.

just for upgrade- you're not buying a new Mirage-2000 for that price (anyway they're not in production)

The price the Frenchies paid for Mirages were $23 Mil (source wiki) and even if one were to assume this did NOT include grnd support, sims and training, add all that and the price is EQUAL to that of the LCA..

first of all, that price was relevant nearly 25 years ago. inflation means that you won't find a single 4th generation fighter at anywhere near that price anymore..I've seen lots of people referring to Wiki and saying that F-16s cost $25 million..well they're so far from the truth its not even worth explaining. BTW, the French bought the Rafale at around 55 million euros per unit, and they already have the ground infrastructure and training in place.

However, the numbers order by French and that of LCA are MILES apart and hence, when more numbers are ordered by the IAF/IN the prices should come down significantly to say about ~ $28 MIL a pop!

the comparison itself is wrong. you cannot compare the price of new-build Mirages from the early 1980s and compare it to a new build Tejas in 2006.

Economies of Scale, tend to tilt the favour in home countries, as manufacturers make higher (insane at times) amount of profits when exporting as oppose to selling it at home.. Case in point (f-16s @ home cost $20 mil a Pop, Kashmiri Shawls, Wheat, etc..)

they cost that much when the USAF was actually procuring them in the 1980s. Today a single F-16 Block 50 costs nearly $50-55 million without even including weapons, ground support and a few spares (like some extra engines, etc.)

the Tejas is pretty cheap. if the IAF is happy with it, there will be no more affordable fighter they could buy to bulk up the squadron numbers

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 10 Dec 2009 09:17

We need 300 to 400 LCAs. China and Pak would think several times before looking at India again. Think like the Chinese for a change, people!

vina · Post by **vina** » 10 Dec 2009 10:15

Jayram wrote:downloaded some freeware and this the result. The red line and the angle therein is the one we are after.
The angle seems to be around 142 deg measured from the horizontal plane and therefore around 52 deg +/- sweptback from vertical

Zubanallah! . Phiphty Two your sophtware says aye ? Thanks Jayram. Technology has advanced so much huh ?. You do sophtware to meajure angils ?. Poor old fashioned moi was reaching out for a khatara protractor to put on top of bicchar to measure saar and did a eyeball estimate from phorty phive angles and saw that it was in the ball park.

here was an old study "an approach to high angle of attack testing for lca" which had exact angles. I cannot download it no more.

Yeah. I looked right now. I had it in my hard drive. According to the article, the sweeps are 50deg and 62 deg before and after the crank respectively.

Mullah Enqyoob wrote: Fatwa -al - Enqyoob no 40000000013123328 ..In Soober Sonic, it is kismet that you get shocked . What matters more than the act of getting shocked itself is whether it is a "normal" shock or an "oplique" shock

Fatwa -al - Enqyoob no 40000000013123329 ..
Pehind the shock cone, the flow in the normal direction is always supsonic. It is halaal only to design wings out of supsonic brofiles , even iph hawai jehaaj is phlying soober sonic

Fatwa -al - Enqyoob no 40000000013123330 ..
It is haraam for Kufrs to dejine hawai jahaaj from soober sonic brofiles even if hawai jahaaj is soober sonic. However, it is very halaal to dejine using such brofiles for raakits who always soober sonic and on a one a one way mission to jahannum with 72 raisins granteed like JDAM Pakis

So translated from Pinglees to Inglees, the following corollary applies.

The design speed of the YellCeeYea is Mach 1.6 . Also, the entire plane is extremely efficient until that speed. Mark my words, it will accelerate like a jack rabbit upto Mach 1.6 .

Beyond Mach 1.6, the the Mach half angle will intersect into the wing sweep and the inlet will no longer be shielded and be guaranteed sub sonic airflow.

The sweep of 50 degs sweep vs the 51.3 theoretical seems fine I think.The wings will be operating the shock cone from the pointy nose of the "lound eyed" plane, so the effective flow behind that line should somewhat less than free stream flow I should think giving an "advantage" of a a degree or two less sweep.

I havent opened any Kitaab in Hawaa Chaal or Paani Chaal for a looooooooooong time. Mullah Al-Enqyoob can tell from Kitaabs of the pressure draap, denshity and beloshity draap etc pehind Mach 1.6 shocks to get eggjact figures.

in practice (historical trend line) 52 deg sweep is used for >1.8 mach flight. there are other factors involved which determine this along with the mach cone considerations

Refer Fatwa no 40000000013123328 . It ij possibly to phfly above optimal design speed of the wing like your kaffir thoughts of flying at mach 1.8 with a 52deg sweep angle. But then since you are bound by Fatwa no 40000000013123329, which is cast in stone, you are getting highly shocked. Above wings, pelow wings and with a almight kaboom shock phinally. Above dejine speed, you are literally pushing to the limits on Yin Jinn power and can barely sustain it for a few minutes at max .. And oh.. no jack rappit like acceleration it is a very slow uphill climb beyond the design speed and guzzling fuel like a Paki slurping up Amreeki Baksheesh.

Jehaaj e Kufr is bery epphichiyent

Unlike very martial Sher Dil, Ghairatmand paki and Cheeni, the dhoti clad banias are cowards onree. For Ghairat and equal equal we will puff and huff phrom Mach 1.3 or so (42 deg sweep of Al Bandar, and other transonic regime ones like Eff Solah etc) to 1.8 or Mach 2 which will take until Qayamat comes and do equal equal and go phaster.

Dhotiwallahs being cowards, will simply whizz up to 1.6 like a jack rappit and do no huffing and puffing beyond that, but go poof!!. How is that I ask you? Broof that Yindoos are cowards onree.

Fly in the ointment

By the time you huff and puff beyond transonic regime (Mach 1.3), Jehaaj-e-Kuffar would have vanished out of sight in a wink.

But if you want to be phassionablie like in Bollywood and do Soober Sonic for more time beyond Transonic, the Kufr plane has longer legs there.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 10 Dec 2009 10:22

shravan wrote:Successful flight flutter test for Tejas

INS Hansa Base (Goa), Dec 9 (PTI) The aircraft dived towards the sea as the pilot lifted his hands off the control stick for five seconds. In such a short duration, it had plummeted from four kilometres above sea level to just 900 metres before the pilot hit to the throttle again to take to the skies.

Is this correct or DDM. 3 km. drop in 5 seconds?

If this is true, the darn thing must have had its nose pointed straight down with engines on full thrust (Note that it will only drop 122.5 meters in 5 seconds if only gravity was acting on it, assuming g = 9.8 m/sec^2 )

Even if the drop wasn't that fast, must have been one heck of a stomach-churning exhilarating ride going from 4000 m to 900 m

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 10 Dec 2009 10:31

Guys, whats with the pingreji in LCA thread? Didn't we decide against using it in non-Benis threads?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Dec 2009 10:44

in real life one of the key determinants of A2A superiority is acceleration and climb rate from Mach0.8 patrol speed to Mach1.3+ for launching missiles at high alt.

allegedly the F15C and F22 are very good in that, as also the M2K. the eurocanards are probably pretty good too and the J10 being of same shape could do it, if it used composites to keep the weight light.

the Bandar doesnt look too hot in that regime

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 10 Dec 2009 11:03

Dmurphy: There is sometimes a good reason to stick to pingreji here.

See reason #3 in English to Pingreji Dictionary for why.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 10 Dec 2009 11:50

vina wrote:But if you want to be phassionablie like in Bollywood and do Soober Sonic for more time beyond Transonic, the Kufr plane has longer legs there.

Thank you Vina for gr8 analysis. It seems like hindustani geeks will have the last laugh afterall.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 10 Dec 2009 11:54

Dmurphy wrote:Guys, whats with the pingreji in LCA thread? Didn't we decide against using it in non-Benis threads?

Saar either learn aerodynamic greek or pingreji...your choice

For those who due to too much drinking have lost capacity to learn new language here is what Vina said in videshi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swept_wing

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 10 Dec 2009 12:27

ArmenT wrote:Dmurphy: There is sometimes a good reason to stick to pingreji here.

See reason #3 in English to Pingreji Dictionary for why.

I see. You guys seem to be doing your bit in keeping the Pakis' skills down to painting their bandars with chinese paint! But still

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Dec 2009 17:57

Vina, from Jayaram's note, don't you want to consider 48* at the leading edge and somewhere 1/4th of the crosssection, it may trail to take 52*+/-.

?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 10 Dec 2009 18:32

Ok Fellas.

I am done with this pingrezi stuff as well. If you think we are discussing state secrets and need to use pingrezi to mask the discussion, then continue on email. Any and all pingrezi posts will be 4545-ed from now on.

vina · Post by **vina** » 10 Dec 2009 18:54

Ok Fellas.

I am done with this pingrezi stuff as well. If you think we are discussing state secrets and need to use pingrezi to mask the discussion, then continue on email. Any and all pingrezi posts will be 4545-ed from now on.

Ok. Ok. No more Pingerzi.

.

There are no "secrets" here. Design mach number will be worst kept secret if ever. It is there right in front of your eyes. Even a sophomore with some basic knowledge (unless a total numbskull) will be able to calculate that if he sees the plane.

Once you "out" the plane, there is no secret any more. The only way is to hide it all under a Burkha and make it so secret that no one sees the plane, like the Russian /Cheeni secret secret play.

But the broader point is even if I write it in Oxbridge English or Mylapore Inglees, how many people will really "get" it if it starts getting a bit technical I wonder.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Dec 2009 19:30

If I may: More the BENIS, greater is the obfuscation.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 11 Dec 2009 00:51

Kartik wrote:first of all, that price was relevant nearly 25 years ago. inflation means that you won't find a single 4th generation fighter at anywhere near that price anymore..I've seen lots of people referring to Wiki and saying that F-16s cost $25 million..well they're so far from the truth its not even worth explaining.

I'm sorry I don't run around carrying data so if I am "so far from the truth" do accept my apology. Last I checked, the F-16's prices were $20 mill in 1998 (wiki says $18.8 for blk 50 D models, but we'll round off to 20 for better calculations), add to that year on year inflation rates and you'll see that the average from 1998 to 2008 inflation is at 2.5%. Now when you add all that % up you end up with 29.82% inflation from 98 till present. This accounts to $20 mil * 29.82% = ~$26 MIL a pop! better a congressional report states it to be $26.9 mil a POP with ALL SUPPORT EQUIPMENTS, weapons, CFTS and network capability to blk 52 standard today with the inflation rate would push it out to $35 mil a pop SAME AS THE YELLSEEYAY! Now a recently concluded sale of F-16's block 60 variants for the UAE was sold for $80 mil a pop! But we aren't talking about exports here are we? Also keep in mind that the LABOR costs in INDIA and that of US are VERY DIFFERENT! As far as the production lines, well let's not go there, HAL recently said that they can manufacture 8 on a yearly basis, upgradeable to 12.. Now if you compare that with any other countries (oops, sorry CAN'T compare as it would be comparing apples with oranges)

BTW, the French bought the Rafale at around 55 million euros per unit, and they already have the ground infrastructure and training in place.

Do provide a source (cleary not Wiki as you are not a big fan) for the frenchies and the price they paid for Mirages 2000 5's as you claim to be absurbdly high at around EUROS 50-5 mil a pop because I came across US $23 mil and with the French Inflation from year on basis that would come out to $30 mil. Even if the support is not included add another 5 - 6 mil and you end up with $35 Mill. Again, labor cost for France and India are not the same..

the comparison itself is wrong. you cannot compare the price of new-build Mirages from the early 1980s and compare it to a new build Tejas in 2006.

Why not?? I mean equipment wise, the so called "new built Tejas" is not much different from the 80's Mirages 2000 5's are they??

the Tejas is pretty cheap. if the IAF is happy with it, there will be no more affordable fighter they could buy to bulk up the squadron numbers

The prices for LCA will be cheap AFTER the FOREIGN COMPONENTS are ELIMINATED..use the KAVERI engine, INDIAN RADAR, Weapons and VOILA! the price are very comparable to that of the a foreign country, but until then I'd say it is still A HELLUVA lot better than getting an EXPORT variant and paying an ARM AND A LEG! but $35 mil for a home grown jet AIN'T cheap especially when you look at the labor rates in India! But I guess if we were to look at new jets (4+ gen and 5th gen) today they would cost $40-100 Mil for any country and we can develop those for say HALF the price is DEFINATELY CHEAP!!!
JAI HO ! YELL SEE YAY!

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 Dec 2009 00:56

Jagan wrote:Ok Fellas.

I am done with this pingrezi stuff as well. If you think we are discussing state secrets and need to use pingrezi to mask the discussion, then continue on email. Any and all pingrezi posts will be 4545-ed from now on.

Glad to hear this change in policy.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 11 Dec 2009 01:35

With HAL paying B.E engineers around Rs. 8000-10000 (before the new pay commission) even in cities like Bangalore, I simply don't have any hope that they can produce even 8 LCAs for long. A 12th pass call center employee gets more salary than this. One of my friends left a job there to complete M.Tech and become a teacher in some university.
Did I mention 1-3 hours long tea and lunch breaks?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Dec 2009 03:10

Jamwal with the 6th pay commission the salary now should be Rs 55,000-70,000 pm.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 11 Dec 2009 03:19

Not for the entry level graduates.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Dec 2009 03:20

For them it should be ~ Rs 35,000 - 45,000 pm, unless that amount you quote is a stipend, and not a salary.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 11 Dec 2009 03:34

That's much better. That person could've been bluffing about his position. He was posted in Jaguar maintenance division BTW and saw a lot of LCAs piloted by the dashing pilots who handled it like seasoned bikers handle their bikes.

I think it's going OT and am going to stop here.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 11 Dec 2009 04:10

If MRCA deal does not go to HAL and instead to TATA, L&T etc..then maybe HAL might concentrate more on LCA, i seriously doubt if the assembly line can simultaneously handle MRCA and LCA.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Dec 2009 06:07

Rupesh wrote:If MRCA deal does not go to HAL and instead to TATA, L&T etc..then maybe HAL might concentrate more on LCA, i seriously doubt if the assembly line can simultaneously handle MRCA and LCA.

To repeat what has been discussed here time and again, Tatas and L&T currently do not have the infrastructure to manufacture supersonic fighter aircraft although they could make components via offsets. Other than HAL no other Indian company can do this currently and any change will have to come in slowly. The only (decidedly minor) competitor to HAL may be that private company in Hosur (can't recall the name) and an India-wide maintenance org called AirWorks India. Another public sector undertaking like BHEL too perhaps. And the Air Force itself could manufacture - with some expansion of its infrastructure - but that would make the IAF like the PAF

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 11 Dec 2009 06:08

Craig Alpert wrote:but $35 mil for a home grown jet AIN'T cheap especially when you look at the labor rates in India! But I guess if we were to look at new jets (4+ gen and 5th gen) today they would cost $40-100 Mil for any country and we can develop those for say HALF the price is DEFINATELY CHEAP!!!

Saar do you have an example of contract where technology transfer is cheaper than outright sale. Even if 80 million becomes 70 million it is twice the cost of LCA. And don't forget the life time costs e.g. $50 million dollar upgrade on Mirage 2000, cost of american missiles and munitions, spares, or services. Everything added it is close to 100 million a pop. Add the geopolitical risks and costs and the LCA tejas is dirt cheap.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Dec 2009 06:17

Gagan wrote:For them it should be ~ Rs 35,000 - 45,000 pm, unless that amount you quote is a stipend, and not a salary.

Gagan - salaries will never get that high at least in the near future for that category. What has happened in India is that with the IT boom people who could expect Rs 10,000 a month (before the IT boom) were suddenly able to make 4 times that amount. So everyone is rushing towards IT - which will eventually lead to a glut and reduction in salaries (or job losses as "costlier" people will be shelved for "cheaper" new graduates.) What I see happening in India is not an overall increase in all salaries to match IT but a rationalization of IT sector salaries that will bring them down. In the long term this will be better for India making all jobs across all sectors more attractive while reducing the wild rush for IT alone.

Sorry OT

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Dec 2009 06:24

shiv wrote:The only (decidedly minor) competitor to HAL may be that private company in Hosur (can't recall the name)

Taneja Aerospace.
The license manufacture Cessnas. They have an airfield south of Bangalore. The Rustom which was being tested from there, crashed just outside the airfield there.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Dec 2009 06:28

Oh shiv saar,
I've worked in a government facility, and the 6th pay commission jacked my salary from ~ 21,000 to 57,000 overnight. My Departmental head was making ~ 27-28,000 made ~ 65-70,000 after the pay hike. I can imagine the head of the institution must be making well over 1 lakh as per the pay bracket announced.

The 6th pay commission has raised the salaries by leaps and bounds

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Dec 2009 06:35

Gagan wrote:Oh shiv saar,
I've worked in a government facility, and the 6th pay commission jacked my salary from ~ 21,000 to 57,000 overnight. My Departmental head was making ~ 27-28,000 made ~ 65-70,000 after the pay hike. I can imagine the head of the institution must be making well over 1 lakh as per the pay bracket announced.

The 6th pay commission has raised the salaries by leaps and bounds

Heartening to hear that...but knowing the nature of your non-engineering background

makes me think that the same hike may not be reflected elsewhere. I don't know.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Dec 2009 13:38

I hate to throw a bucket of ice cold water on the subject,but the latest news is depressing.First of all,the perfected MK-2 version hasn't even been built or tested,the MK-1 version has only a 20 aircraft order and cannot provide full capabilities.Just read the latest news about the progress of the Chinese aerospace industry in open media reports like AWST,Flight,etc.,where one top US analyst has stated that "the only arms race the Chinese are into is with India,which they are winning".I speak only of China becaus ewhatever they devel;op Pak will eventually get too.

Now granted that all is hunky dory with the aircraft's dsign,etc.,the abysmal rate of production even ramped up to 12 a year simply cannot meet the IAF's needs.This means that by 2020,we would've had only around 100-120 aircraft in service and by that time,the aircraft would be masisvely outdated when the 5th-gen fighters from Russia,JSF,and even China are in service,the Russian PAK-FA expected to be in service by 2015,of which a variant will be made for India.With the expected MMRCA deal also well udner way by 2015,with a few squadrons in service by then,which aircraft will the IAF prefer to meet the challenges 5 years hence and for the next few decades? Now 120 MIG-21 Bisons are in service and these aircraft,upgraded so well,will ceratinly have to be phased out by 2020,some if not earlier. The costs also of the LCA MK_2 will ceratinly be in the $40-50 million class once the new (most probably EJ) engine arrives and the redesign and development costs are added to the current figure.Unless production is not less than 24 aircraft per year,2 per month,the LCA will rapidly lose its relevance as newer aircraft become available.

Therefore,the most we can hope from the LCA is that it will replace the MIG-21 Bisons by 2020.For all other requirements the IAF will have to acquire another aircraft from abroad,which is why the actual acquisition numbers of the MMRCA will be around 200+,along with 240-300 SU-30MKIs,apartf rom upgraded MIG-29s and maybe more of the type (35s) as the cutting edge of the IAF.By 2015,once the 5th-0gen fighter arrives,it will be so advanced over the LCA that the IAF will want more of it and less of the LCA,especially as mentioned earlier,the arrival of more 5th-gen aircraft from the US and China in the skies.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Dec 2009 14:16

the abysmal rate of production even ramped up to 12 a year simply cannot meet the IAF's needs

that is for the Mk1 only. for a 40 size (not 20 as you say) production run that is enough. no one has talked about Mk2 production rate so far.
common sense dictates that for a larger order production too can be increased to around 25-30 without screwing up the economics.

This means that by 2020,we would've had only around 100-120 aircraft in service and by that time,the aircraft would be masisvely outdated when the 5th-gen fighters from Russia,JSF,and even China are in service,the Russian PAK-FA expected to be in service by 2015,of which a variant will be made for India.

which of IAF's potential adversaries would field 5 gen fighters in that time period and in what numbers ? PLAAF fielding true 5 gen fighters in numbers before 2020 looks more fanciful that fact. of course they can field some RCS optimised J-10 but that won't be a true 5-gen.
PAF and PLAAF will still be 4 gen aircraft forces in 2020. at most PLAAF will have a couple of 5 gen fighter squadrons.
forget the chinese, barring a handful of countries all over europe and asia air forces will still be flying 4 gen eurogighters, rafales and gripens in 2020.
the LCA is not going to be obsolete anytime soon.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 11 Dec 2009 15:15

Eurojet could develop thrust vectoring with India

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... india.html

Eurojet is separately bidding against General Electric to supply the EJ200 for an improved version of India's single-engine Tejas light combat aircraft. A combined offer could provide sufficient economies to persuade India to fund a demonstration programme.

Johnson says Eurojet could be ready for a flight demonstration within 18-24 months, but stresses that the emphasis will be on obtaining data that backs the TVN's economic benefits rather than its enhanced dogfighting capability.

If India does provide part of the funding and R&D then flight demonstration could well take place on a prototype of Mk-2.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Dec 2009 17:59

Rahul,of course our production "can" be increased,but what is HAL's track record? To be fair to them too,what is the track record of almost all indigenised production in India of major defence weapon systems? We have seen every service chief in the last two decades bemoan the tardy performance of the DRDO and PSUs,not least the Navy chief about warship production.Even the production of licence built systems are behind schedule.The naval version of the ALH has been rejected by the IN,which is now in a fix because the ALH doesn't meet its requirements and ships designed on the basis that the ALH would fit the bill will now need new imports in large numbers.Take the Hawk for example,whatever the causes for the delay,all we find is that the institutions blame someone or the other and never try their best to meet deadlines because no one is ever held accountable.Look at Russia though.The celebrated missile designer who failed to deliver on the Bulava missile which repeatedly failed,was found accountable and sacked.Can that ever happen in India with our babudom who never get criticised for their failures,only poor Admirals (like Vishnu Bhagwat,who got the sack) and Air Marshals who rightly question the relevance of female fighter pilots ?

Coming back to the LCA,just take a look at the entire project,the schedules and deadlines revised time and time again and we still haven't found an engine for it yet! So of what use will 40+ MK-1 LCAs be if the MK-2 is not perfected and built at lightning speed? If it arrives in the latter half of the next decade,do you seriously think that it will be a worthy acquisition in large numbers for the IAF when several far more capable aircraft would've arrived on the scene by then some in service with our enemies? Going by current estimates,the LCA MK-2,with an EJ engine most probably,will have to be redesigned for a larger fuselage,flight tested in full,a feat taking at least 3-4 years,with first production arriving around 2015,which at that time,the first 20-40 Mk-1s would've just come off the production line given the official 8-12 per year figure.The 5th-gen fighter from Russia,at least the Russian version,will be arriving off production lines at the same time! The JSF will be in service with a number of US allies and improved Chinese fighters will definitely be in the skies,perhaps even the prototypes of their 5th-gen fighter.

What one military mind says is that oto overcome the crisis of dwindling numbers and capability,the IAF should order another 100 SU-30MKIs in addition to the 240 on order,rammping up local production,as several MIG-21 squadrons will be retired next year leaving us with an acute shortage.The MMRCA deal will be made only by late next year and whatever aircraft is chosen,it will not be available in large numbers in service (200+) until the end of the decade.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Dec 2009 17:59

Is the EJ200 not optimized for naval ops? The humidity and salinity of the ocean environment is supposed to be bad for electronics and metals alike.

Is there any specific and major difference between an engine that is optimized in such a manner?

The GE 414 is in the F-18 E/F so one assumes it is optimized in such a way. Is this a very major concern?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Dec 2009 18:59

if EADS has some shares of klimov, then we have a leapfrog tech in TVN. They are already into some deals in Russia.

A PAK-FA jointly done with EADS-India and Russia makes it a F22 raptor equivalent!

. LCA blocks can beat F35, while MCA could compete with F22++.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Dec 2009 19:03

philip sir, I'm sure there are legitimate causes for castigating dfence PSU's and DRDO but the situation has changed over the past decade and is changing for the better. it's failure to recognise that which is the problem.
the situation is not solved by throwing the baby with the bath-water.

thankfully, it's the top brass from air force and navy that has started recognising the problem and do not seem to share the view expounded by you !

ALH has been rejected by the IN,which is now in a fix because the ALH doesn't meet its requirements and ships designed on the basis that the ALH would fit the bill will now need new imports in large numbers.

that's not quite correct.
http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2009/12/n ... plans.html

About the air arm of the Navy, the Chief clarified that the focus in the next financial year would be on helicopters. .........The tender for six meduim range maritime reconnaisance aircraft will be released this year and procurement of 16 multi role helicopters to replace the existing anti-submarine warfare Seaking helicopters, and 47 Advanced Light Helicopters to replace the Chetaks is on the horizon.

I never understood the rationale for suggesting the dhruv as a replacement for the sea kings.
I mean whoever came up with that proposal ! replacing a heavy ASW helo with a light helo sounds like DDM's idea of modernisation.
but for the replacement of chetaks it's quite a good alternative now that the teething problems have been rectified.

Coming back to the LCA,just take a look at the entire project,the schedules and deadlines revised time and time again and we still haven't found an engine for it yet! So of what use will 40+ MK-1 LCAs be if the MK-2 is not perfected and built at lightning speed?

I didn't realise that the LCA mk1 is that obsolete !!

given that the IAF is going to use 2nd and 3rd generation fighters till 2020-25 (bisons and jaguars) the 4+ generation LCA Mk1 and 2 is nothing less than "more than acceptable" standard for IAF !

for pete's sake, the LCA Mk 1 offers capabilities quite similar to the gripen which is a MRCA candidate, supposed to be the fighter of the future of IAF !

if IAF wants to move towards that 1000 a/c target and still maintain the overall quality, the LCA is the only alternative.

The 5th-gen fighter from Russia,at least the Russian version,will be arriving off production lines at the same time!

I'll consider us lucky if it arrives before 2018,

2019-2020 is a reasonable date, probably.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 11 Dec 2009 19:44

ADA, DRDO Scientists Get Commendations From Air Chief For Exemplary Contribution....huh? what for? what's the contribution !!

Philip sir, Ur comments ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Dec 2009 20:06

I wish the lady toned down her excitement a bit !

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 11 Dec 2009 20:25

a perfect sample that represents some of the attitudes in this forum. Not complaining as long as it ends well.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Dec 2009 20:26

is that addressed to me ?

added later : in case it is, I'll request you (and the lady) to look up some details about the sundry upgrade programs for IAF (mig-27, DARIN), indigenous RWRs and other EW gear, self protection jammers, mission computers for mki and mig-27 probably also for the mig-29 in future, significant advances in IACCS, low level light weight radar aslesha (meant for mountainous terrain), 3D CAR rohini, rajendra, akash SAM and so on.

I'm sure I'm still missing some.

of course it may be all "huh ?" to suman sharma but the IAF Chief isn't oblivious to the value of all this.