Telangana Monitor

[RameshVarma]

a. First, it is not what I say. Nepotism is rampant in Indian courts, administration. Even a blind man from Mars can see that. So there is no such thing as "my saying". And the legal solution I proposed is not split right away, but a referendum after 5 years in "Nizam area". What law do you propose to reduce existing fire?

Referendum in the Nizam area after 5 or 15 years is not going to solve the problem in any manner. The only thing that is going to solve the issue is better governance. If things haven't changed in 50 years even after being represented by 40% of MLA's in the AP assembly, how can one be sure that things are going to change in 5 to 15 years with same set of people representing them.

If you think by forming a new state they are going to develop then your seriously wrong as their problems will compounded by weaker voice in the center, decrease in the investments in their region, esp Hyderabad (which I assume will become UT), they need to contend with other states for Water resources, needs to depend on other states for Power, need to pay octrai for access to coastal regions(so most of industries will be favoring a state with coastal regions and with surplus of Power),Telangana land being no Punjab or Bihar, did I mention about the Maoist problem in Telangana region.So if the region is divided then most will be lost for Telangana but not Andhra (am not sure about Seema).

Now you might be wondering why people of Andhra are worried about United Andhra, even they have selfish motives, like their investments(both in terms of public and private) in Hyderabad (which is the bone of contention in this fight).

Today the problem of backwardness of not only Telangana but also other regions can be attributed to rampant corruption in the political classes. In the current political setup an elected representative is only answerable to the another elected representative. If things are to improve on the ground then the elected representatives must be made accountable not to another elected representative but to a government body which needs to keep track of the development happening in the region.[for example Sarpanch as to be made answerable to Gaz. level officer in the collector's office and zilla parshid members should be answerable to IAS and MLA and MP should be made answerable not only in the assembly and parliment but to an appropriate govt. employee about the work that is being carried out]. Now some of sort of checks like these will not eliminate corruption completely but it may contain the corruption if we have at least dedicated IAS officer in constituency.

Now proposing a solution just for sake reducing Fire today without extinguishing it will only compound the problems in the future.

And yes, if the new state further leaves out a one area, then demand for further bifurfication may come. But for a demand of separate State to reach high, you need enough power in Delhi and an ordinary district may not be able to manage that.

If we set policies like this which are going to alienate some(even small section of society) just because there voice is to weak to be heard then we don't need to look across the border for trouble we will be having one in our own backyard (another Naxal in creation).

b. Many wealthy ones from coastal-AP moved to Hyderabad and other parts of Telangana for business, govt jobs etc in 1950s. Their sons became judges in session courts in Telangana region and then moved into High Court. So if one goes by place of birth, they will all appear as Telanganites. But most of their relatives whom they will favor will be from coastal-AP. To get data about origin and study role of nepotism, knowing place of birth isn't enough. One would need to get residency of his great-grandfather, grandfather and father. Only other source is "the word in streets". Though educated people hate "the word in streets", I have found that the "word in streets" is often an accurate summation of such facts. And the word in streets says AP courts, administration are dominated by upper class and upper middle class from coastal-AP. I propose we enact a law to get data on 4th ancestor residency etc so that we get accurate information on nepotism in Indian administration. But till such law comes, I depend on the word on streets.

the problem of Telanganites is because of evil andhraites and what about the Telangana people who benefited from the business established by the andhraites.
[Here is an interesting fact, If I am not wrong KCR the main reason for this current Telanagana agitation is from Andhra]

Seriously when considering the word on the street, the news as to be taken with pinch of salt,(there is proverb in Telugu "Edigo Puli anti, adigo toka antaru jannam ", which means if one shouts here is Tiger, then other person in the crowd is going to shout there I see a tail, even though one doesn't see a tiger at all. )

I personally believe that "In this DRAWINOIN World, if your not fit to survive then your fit to perish.All this Nepotism is just an excuse given by the weaklings".

[Abhi_G]

Inhabitants of Gujarat look down upon the people of the other two regions as lazy and backward.

Airavat-ji, that is a gem. The same "oh they are lazy and do not want to work" allegation seems to be EVERYWHERE in India. Is this some social engineering creation due to brit rule and then continued by kangresswallahs?

[a_kumar]

Chiranjeevi quits Assembly. To fight for United Andhra

Bowing to the pressure of regional politics, Praja Rajyam president Chiranjeevi on Thursday morning resigned from the state assembly and vowed to fight for a United Andhra.

Stating that the Telangana sentiment has been exploited by political leaders at all levels, the PRP chief put the signature on his resignation letter in front of the media and said it would be forwarded to Speaker N Kiran Kumar Reddy later in the day by one of his MLAs.

Claiming that a united Andhra is in the best interests of the people of Telangana, Chiranjeevi said he would undertake an extensive tour of the Telangana region and educate the people as to why an undivided state is more beneficial to them. "I may face a lot of opposition, but I will still undertake it," he said and vowed that his stance of an AP where social justice is ushered in will not change.

The PRP chief’s announcement triggered protests from the Telangana party workers who had assembled outside the party office at Jubilee Hills. The police had to take a few of them under preventive custody.

Chiranjeevi’s resignation will now shift the focus on the two MLAs from Telangana who are among the 18 legislators elected from that party.

While all the PRP legislators from the non-Telangana regions had already submitted their resignations to the Speaker in protest against the division of the state, PRP MLA from Balakonda Y Anil resigned from the house on Wednesday and A Maheshwar Reddy from Nirmal in Adilabad district, the remaining party MLA from the region, is likely to put in his papers later on Thursday.

Chiranjeevi's resignation puts the heat on TDP president N Chandrababu Naidu, whose party has strength of 92 legislators in the assembly of whom 39 are from the Telangana region.

"In Chiranjeevi’s case, it was a matter of only two MLAs from the Telangana region. In Naidu’s case, he has 39 and would face a rebellion in case he also shifts his stance back to united Andhra. But if he does not, he will face a revolt from the non-Telangana regions. Hence, Chiranjeevi’s resignation has really put Naidu in a fix," said an analyst.

Already, the 39 TDP MLAs from the TDP are said to be informally discussing among themselves the fallout of Chiranjeevi’s resignation. They had already told Naidu a few days earlier that in case the TDP chief reverses his pro-Telangana stance back to backing united Andhra, then they would float a Telangana TDP.

[Stan_Savljevic]

Inhabitants of Gujarat look down upon the people of the other two regions as lazy and backward.

Airavat-ji, that is a gem. The same "oh they are lazy and do not want to work" allegation seems to be EVERYWHERE in India. Is this some social engineering creation due to brit rule and then continued by kangresswallahs?

Did nt we see the Telengana version of it repeated time and again by many a stalwart who knew everything about everyone in Telengana: "they were dhimmifed under Nizam." Well, one could do a reverse of that by saying that the costa and seema people are the moderate ones cos they never saw the brutality of the Nizam. What goes for the goose, goes well for the gander too. The question is who is the more rabid and vocal of the two, that is how her-story is written. In all this melee, the same costa and seema people forget that they were also called "backward and lazy" under the brit rule when they complained. Perhaps that should be called the empire strikes back.

[yvijay]

Absolutely Stanji. I don’t know how we (telanganites) are dhimmified. I didn’t know I was dhimmified until people here proclaimed that. And one stalwart says that because of dhimmification they don’t study or work hard and are jealous of costa people. Contrary to that they sell their lands and work hard just to get their kids get educated and get them out of poverty.
Andhra people had jump start due to education under British and they were in advantageous position, when jobs were created. And in government office as you know about the nepotism, people tend to favor from their own region. Due to this G.O 610 was created to help the locals. Here again fake domicile certificates were created and the G.O itself was never implemented properly. It’s only after KCR whipped up the agitation near 2004 elections and got substantial seats, YSR allocated funds for the irrigation projects. Before that nobody cared about it.

Some folks here say that telangana is on a higher plateau, it is arid region, hydel dams are not possible, and lift irrigation is costly. So how does that make them lazy? Nagajuna sagar dam is built in telangana but the major share of water goes to Andhra where they can grow three crops and have other agri- businesses (like aqua culture which was possible only after the dam) and then blame telangana people being lazy.

In the end I don’t think telangana is required, if the funds are allocated fairly like the YSR did in the last elections. He totally took gas out of the KCR by doing that. He allocated funds for irrigation projects for all the three regions. I can vouch how people from Nalgonda district are greatful for the canal they got under YSR.

[SwamyG]

Airavat-ji, that is a gem. The same "oh they are lazy and do not want to work" allegation seems to be EVERYWHERE in India. Is this some social engineering creation due to brit rule and then continued by kangresswallahs?

The implication of that question is that it was the Brits who started the problem and Congress continued to fan the problem. The assumption is that we did not have the problem within us as a civilization. If one does not take into account the probability that we could have some flaws/drawbacks too; then we miss a lot in reforming. Only if the right question is asked do we stand a chance of finding an answer. There is a tendency here and elsewhere to blame all problems at the feet of Britishers, Muslim Invaders, Congress ithiyadi.

[ShyamSP]

Looks like he was asked to wrap up Telengana as TRS is there and focus on non-Telengana to corner TDP.

CBN is sitting quietly and watching Congress dance from both sides. TDP people on both sides protesting with people
independent of CBN.

Chiranjeevi quits Assembly. To fight for United Andhra

Bowing to the pressure of regional politics, Praja Rajyam president Chiranjeevi on Thursday morning resigned from the state assembly and vowed to fight for a United Andhra.

Stating that the Telangana sentiment has been exploited by political leaders at all levels, the PRP chief put the signature on his resignation letter in front of the media and said it would be forwarded to Speaker N Kiran Kumar Reddy later in the day by one of his MLAs.

Claiming that a united Andhra is in the best interests of the people of Telangana, Chiranjeevi said he would undertake an extensive tour of the Telangana region and educate the people as to why an undivided state is more beneficial to them. "I may face a lot of opposition, but I will still undertake it," he said and vowed that his stance of an AP where social justice is ushered in will not change.

The PRP chief’s announcement triggered protests from the Telangana party workers who had assembled outside the party office at Jubilee Hills. The police had to take a few of them under preventive custody.

Chiranjeevi’s resignation will now shift the focus on the two MLAs from Telangana who are among the 18 legislators elected from that party.

While all the PRP legislators from the non-Telangana regions had already submitted their resignations to the Speaker in protest against the division of the state, PRP MLA from Balakonda Y Anil resigned from the house on Wednesday and A Maheshwar Reddy from Nirmal in Adilabad district, the remaining party MLA from the region, is likely to put in his papers later on Thursday.

Chiranjeevi's resignation puts the heat on TDP president N Chandrababu Naidu, whose party has strength of 92 legislators in the assembly of whom 39 are from the Telangana region.

"In Chiranjeevi’s case, it was a matter of only two MLAs from the Telangana region. In Naidu’s case, he has 39 and would face a rebellion in case he also shifts his stance back to united Andhra. But if he does not, he will face a revolt from the non-Telangana regions. Hence, Chiranjeevi’s resignation has really put Naidu in a fix," said an analyst.

Already, the 39 TDP MLAs from the TDP are said to be informally discussing among themselves the fallout of Chiranjeevi’s resignation. They had already told Naidu a few days earlier that in case the TDP chief reverses his pro-Telangana stance back to backing united Andhra, then they would float a Telangana TDP.

[a_kumar]

Absolutely Stanji. I don’t know how we (telanganites) are dhimmified. I didn’t know I was dhimmified until people here proclaimed that. And one stalwart says that because of dhimmification they don’t study or work hard and are jealous of costa people. Contrary to that they sell their lands and work hard just to get their kids get educated and get them out of poverty.

One thing that is lost in all the noise is that when everybody refers to "Andhra or Costa" of fertile lands that takes all the water, they are referring to handful of districts in south coast.

They are several districts (in Rayalaseema as well as East Andhra), which do not have the fertile lands nor good canals for irrigation. If you look at the Eastern districts, they make do with rain harvesting (encouraged traditionally by Vijayanagara kings, NOT the KrishnaDevaRaya Vijayanagar) and that still doesn't help. Lots of farmers lose lands and survive on absolute basics and manual labor, ie, if they survive the debts. But they are so far removed from the capital geographically, that most of media is blind to it. To highlight Telangana grievances, one has to travel couple of hours outside hyd. To highlight grievances of other places, one has to travel overnight in train/bus, a huge difference.

In all this, parents still struggle for their kid's education (kudos to government schools in rural areas), even at expense of properties and lands. Similarly, I know several folks from Telangana in my circle who fought odds and made a name for themselves. Telangana and most of other districts in AP aren't different from that sense and nothing can take that away from us (Telagana/Rayalaseema/Costa).

Having said that, guess where most of the educational institutions of higher learning are in Andhra Pradesh? I have always taken it for what it is, but now when I look at it in different light, I am bummed and would like to have my own state (am from Coastal ). Apparently Coastal people have a lot of money, so why not plough all that into local institutions and infrastructure instead of developing that far away city!!

Coastal Andhra 3
Rayalaseema 6
Telangana 11
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Total 19
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[ramana]

One thing is to develop the small towns and cities to urbanize the less develpoed regions. I believe this will give more jobs and satisfaction to the people.

[svinayak]

Did nt we see the Telengana version of it repeated time and again by many a stalwart who knew everything about everyone in Telengana: "they were dhimmifed under Nizam."

Nizam is a foriegn rule and will never be considered as part of "indic"
That is the main problem here. We need to remove the old imperial rule and their memory from our political structure and create a modern one. Undivided Andhra is one such modern version. Foreign rule and foreign political structure cannot be brought back into India

[svinayak]

It’s only after KCR whipped up the agitation near 2004 elections and got substantial seats, YSR allocated funds for the irrigation projects. Before that nobody cared about it.

In the end I don’t think telangana is required, if the funds are allocated fairly like the YSR did in the last elections.

Before YSR for 50 years what was the ruling regime doing. It cant be blamed on non telegana people.

[Stan_Savljevic]

Nizam is a foriegn rule and will never be considered as part of "indic"
That is the main problem here. We need to remove the old imperial rule and their memory from our political structure and create a modern one.

Wow, nice logic. But I thought the Nizam was ousted with Op. Polo and was ousted out of the Rajpramukh thing a bit later. My impression was that the photo of a Hindu-hand-folding Nizam with Sardar was supposed to have been the symbolic ousting of the old and replacement with the new.

Undivided Andhra is one such modern version. Foreign rule and foreign political structure cannot be brought back into India

How is foreign rule brought back to India with a separate Telengana beats me? May be this deserves some explanation. Or is this some kinda fear-mongering. I can do the reverse fear-mongering business here. The reason why the MIM is comfortable with status quo is that they fear what could happen when power transfers to the people who have actually suffered under the Nizam. How about that interpretation?

Before YSR for 50 years what was the ruling regime doing. It cant be blamed on non telegana people.

The logic I hear is this: for 50 years before YSR, except for 6 years power was always under non-Telengana people. Ergo, they are to blame. Ergo, Telengana wants to opt out. I dont know how many people are making this justification, but surely this number is not a big zero.

[Virupaksha]

The logic I hear is this: for 50 years before YSR, except for 6 years power was always under non-Telengana people. Ergo, they are to blame. Ergo, Telengana wants to opt out. I dont know how many people are making this justification, but surely this number is not a big zero.

ofcourse,

jalagam vengal rao who ruled for 5 years should be forgotten.


Problem with him is simple, he is from Khammam part of telangana only. But Khammam district as a whole has always been semi-coastified if you know what I mean because of its proximity.

and Stan saarvaadu in the past 17 years, there has been only rayalseema raj, perhaps coasta should go against them too.

and did ananthapur get any cm from that district, I dont remember anyone. So ananthapur should have its own state. I vote for it. did vizag get any? did anakapalli get any?

Telangana has 119 mla seats, 41% of the total, rayalseema has 17%, coasta 42. yet rayalseema has been the cm since the past 17 years. and yes, raayalseema is the most backward part in AP.

[ShyamSP]

Did nt we see the Telengana version of it repeated time and again by many a stalwart who knew everything about everyone in Telengana: "they were dhimmifed under Nizam."

Nizam is a foriegn rule and will never be considered as part of "indic"
That is the main problem here. We need to remove the old imperial rule and their memory from our political structure and create a modern one. Undivided Andhra is one such modern version. Foreign rule and foreign political structure cannot be brought back into India

Successful erasure come because Hyderabad made capitol of all districts of the state. All Telugus contributed and AP people's money got diverted to develop Hyderabad, most of the benefit goes to CBN. Suddenly when it became golden goose all kinds of people want it.

Hyderabadi Muslims secretly love Coastal people coming and investing. Now their mind is in making money before that their razakar mindset was to riot.

Dhimmitude saga:
------------------
Also note Telangana has no exclusive claim on Hyderabad.

- All AP people have claim on Hyderabad. AP invested in Hyderabad by draining resources from other regions and all people sweat and money got invested there. If they ask fair value to be returned to them so they can take their money back to a new capitol city. Hyderabad will go bankrupt.

- Roll back 50 years. A few districts in Karanataka and Maharastra not just Telugu districsts can claim Hyderabad

- Roll back another 100 years. Nizam areas, Ceded and Circars areas can claim Hyderabad. Ceded and Circar areas are may be 80% current non-Telengana. British used to pay taxes to Nizam from these areas for ceding these areas to the British. Find out what was the port for land-locked Nizam area.

- Roll back 300 years whole AP is under Nizam. Whole AP resources were used for the development of Golconda.

- Roll back 700 years or before, there was no Hyderabad. Guess where were some of these Velamas in Telangana from as per their own legend - Velnadu, the Coastal area Telengana people despise so much. Guess where all the people from Kakatiya areas ran to when they lost - to these same Coastal areas. Guess who fought post-Kakatiya to restore Kakatiya for another 50 years - people from Coastal areas. There was greater mobility of people in Kakatiya times to distinguish who were from where of these areas.

Then Eastern Telengana and Coastal people were one happy family with same blood. People of Rayalaseema were different if I may say so.

Now Rayalaseema and Coastal people love each other despite no benefit for Rayalaseema people. Eastern Telengana people despise Coastal people.

Also they despise the word Andhra which is now connotation to non-Telengana people but what was Telangana historically referred - Andhra.

[Stan_Savljevic]

and Stan saarvaadu in the past 17 years, there has been only rayalseema raj, perhaps coasta should go against them too.

No saar, when people from the state show legitimate reasons as to why they have their whine-fest, you cant go around attacking them as "dhimmis." That is both insulting and is going to produce the reverse result of making them feel guilty. OTOH, what you will hear is full-blast backlash. Just human tendency. Rest assured, this inequitable growth pattern is not peculiar to Telengana alone, it is all over India. But then there is a legitimate question I can also posit: why do some of the Telenganites feel that only a separate state can help them in their cause to social mobility, why is it a bit more subdued elsewhere? Surely, if you tell me that the students protesting at Osmania and Kakatiya were riled cos the police beat em up and induced em to riot, I must find a bigger version of this symbol somewhere . Because there is something called Occam's Razor.

[svinayak]

How is foreign rule brought back to India with a separate Telengana beats me? May be this deserves some explanation. Or is this some kinda fear-mongering. I can do the reverse fear-mongering business here. The reason why the MIM is comfortable with status quo is that they fear what could happen when power transfers to the people who have actually suffered under the Nizam. How about that interpretation?

I am talking about historical construct of the Nizam and other princely states. Others have given deeper explanations already so I wont elaborate.
There is no question of fear mongering so there is no need to go in that direction. It is not about minority groups or interest of some faction. India is still yet to under go decolonization in political structure and regional representation. If history is not taken into account there will be no explanation to peoples behavior.

[yvijay]

One thing that is lost in all the noise is that when everybody refers to "Andhra or Costa" of fertile lands that takes all the water, they are referring to handful of districts in south coast.

Of course, every area should be developed. I'm not saying that telangana should hog all the resources. There should be equitable distribution of resources. And you can't blame telanganites , because they are agitating for it and rayalseema and north andhra people are not.
I brought the the education issue, as somebody here was saying that they are lazy to study. In fact, I said that they study as hard as other people. And yes coastal people should invest their resources where ever they see it fit to invest and should not carry the burden of other lazy people.

[svinayak]

Successful erasure come because Hyderabad made capitol of all districts of the state. All Telugus contributed and AP people's money got diverted to develop Hyderabad, most of the benefit goes to CBN. Suddenly when it became golden goose all kinds of people want it.

- All AP people have claim on Hyderabad. AP invested in Hyderabad by draining resources from other regions and all people sweat and money got invested there. If they ask fair value to be returned to them so they can take their money back to a new capitol city. Hyderabad will go bankrupt.

This is how political economy is really built.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_economy

[Stan_Savljevic]

India is still yet to under go decolonization in political structure and regional representation.

What are the criteria that needs to be satisfied to declare that India has decolonized? As far as I see, decolonization is a state of one's mind, so I am waiting to hear this spelt out.

[yvijay]

Before YSR for 50 years what was the ruling regime doing. It cant be blamed on non telegana people.

I'm talking about the ruling regime itself. Who is blaming non telengana people here ?

[svinayak]

What are the criteria that needs to be satisfied to declare that India has decolonized? As far as I see, decolonization is a state of one's mind, so I am waiting to hear this spelt out.

You mean a certificate of decolonization. It can be considered later.

For the real issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decolonization

Decolonization is rarely achieved through a single historical act, but rather progresses through one or more stages of emancipation, each of which can be offered or fought for: these can include the introduction of elected representatives (advisory or voting; minority or majority or even exclusive), degrees of autonomy or self-rule.

[svinayak]

I'm talking about the ruling regime itself. Who is blaming non telengana people here ?

I know. I did not want to spell it out

[ShyamSP]

One thing that is lost in all the noise is that when everybody refers to "Andhra or Costa" of fertile lands that takes all the water, they are referring to handful of districts in south coast.

Of course, every area should be developed. I'm not saying that telangana should hog all the resources. There should be equitable distribution of resources. And you can't blame telanganites , because they are agitating for it and rayalseema and north andhra people are not.
I brought the the education issue, as somebody here was saying that they are lazy to study. In fact, I said that they study as hard as other people. And yes coastal people should invest their resources where ever they see it fit to invest and should not carry the burden of other lazy people.

It was Stan who threw "lazy" spanner by saying "backward and lazy". I don't recall anybody else saying it.

[yvijay]

Then Eastern Telengana and Coastal people were one happy family with same blood. People of Rayalaseema were different if I may say so.

Now Rayalaseema and Coastal people love each other despite no benefit for Rayalaseema people. Eastern Telengana people despise Coastal people.

Also they despise the word Andhra which is now connotation to non-Telengana people but what was Telangana historically referred - Andhra.

Oh yeah coastal people are all milk and honey and telanganites are bad bad people. The love and hate between them is mutual.
And yes nobody has exclusive claim on Hyderabad.

[venkat_r]

If with 41% of the seats in the assembly they are unable to bring any development to Telangana, it is really surprising. It is being conviniently blamed on non-Telangana for their backwardness. This is most probably the case of misdirected anger. This is nothing new and the same is done through out the world. Who ever wins the PR battle gets to keep the loot.

Also, telangana movement really came alive again only when the real-estate boom of Hyderabad made lot of people wealthy around Hyderabad.
1. There are plenty of people who suddenly became millionares overnight and are now plush with obscene cash to finance and to lobby for sperate Telangana and some parties do see this as a ticket to pocket some of it.
2. Genuine concern for their own development or lack of it when they see others prospering in the vicinity. This is a very real concern of many people living in Telangana who see that they are missing the bus on development and as the anger has to go somewhere, is directed towards non-Telangana. This was one of the reasons why TDP lost in 2004, as most people even in Hyderabad and elsewhere in the state felt that TDP only favoured the "IT" and no one else. With Congress, the real estate has gone up significantly in AP, but has reached obscene levels in and around Hyderabad.

There is absolutely no quick fix solution and not sure what would a "seperate Telangana" would achieve for anyone, that is without Hyderabad. Few parties can make some very quick buck in the process and have done and are in the process of doing it now. Granting the motion might assuage some feelings and direct people's attention to their own representatives rather than outsiders.

[ShyamSP]

Then Eastern Telengana and Coastal people were one happy family with same blood. People of Rayalaseema were different if I may say so.

Now Rayalaseema and Coastal people love each other despite no benefit for Rayalaseema people. Eastern Telengana people despise Coastal people.

Also they despise the word Andhra which is now connotation to non-Telengana people but what was Telangana historically referred - Andhra.

Oh yeah coastal people are all milk and honey and telanganites are bad bad people. The love and hate between them is mutual.
And yes nobody has exclusive claim on Hyderabad.

Understand context brother. Telangana and 4-coastal district people do huggie-huggie and kissy-kissy as you guys are after all related by blood.

Why do you want to hit stomach of already-poor Rayalaseema and UttarAndhra people by taking away Hyderabad from them. It is them that suffer the most from the split.

[SwamyG]

India is still yet to under go decolonization in political structure and regional representation.

I understand regional representation, but not the first part in your sentence. What does "decolonization of political structures" mean and look like? TIA.

[svinayak]

India is still yet to under go decolonization in political structure and regional representation.
I understand regional representation, but not the first part in your sentence. What does "decolonization of political structures" mean and look like? TIA.

I am referring to British created west minister system of govt formation and electoral system. British symbols of Parliament should be Indianized. Name changing is only the first process. The term "Collector" etc. should be changed to non exploitive in function also.

[Stan_Savljevic]

It was Stan who threw "lazy" spanner by saying "backward and lazy". I don't recall anybody else saying it.

Interesting, the Telengana's lack of progress was cited due to their being under dhimmi rule. I did not make this odious justification, it was made in the heat of the moment (perhaps!) or it was made unknowingly.

I will pick one post from this thread and my questions thereafter:

A retired Paki maj gen was quoted in the Maratha thread that, North India was dhimmified from ~1200 to 1680 (establishment of Shivaji's kingdom) about 700 hundred years. And this led to a massive lack of self confidence. Telangana was under dhimmi rule from fall of Kakatiyas(1340) to the "Police Action" Operation Polo (1948) ~ 600 years.

Meaning to say that other parts of British India and princely states were all prospering under the brits and other princes. Here are some figures..
http://www.kswdc.org/literacy.htm

Year 1951, Kerala - Female Literacy 36.43%, Male- Female gap 21.92%, India-Female Literacy 7.93%, India - Male- Female gap 17.02%

So the all-India male literacy average in 1951 was 25%. We were all suffering, not just the dhimmi Telengana or the rich costa and seema. Splitting peas between the dhimmified Telengana and a much better off seema and costa is like splitting stuff between epsilon and delta, both are small. There is a perception that somehow epsilon has become N epsilon whereas delta has become M delta where N >> M. Either someone has to convince the people agitating on the ground that this is patently false or stop using monikers such as they were under dhimmi rule etc. The brits did nt call their system dhimmi system, but it was essentially the same, whatever they called it. There are many other princely states from that era: surely Hyderabad was the biggest and the most populous of the lot, but should nt a proper comparison be between Telengana and say, Saurashtra or Junagadh {under dhimmi rule nonetheless} or PEPSU or Travancore-Cochin or Mysore or Baroda {under d. r.} or Jamnagar or Nawanagar or many other such small and large states.

ShyamSP, I am aware of this game where suddenly I become the origin of the lazy and backward word, I have seen this n times in the link language thread. So please curb this tendency, what I wrote is in english and it is there for people to read.

[a_kumar]

I see these words are causing lot of takleef "backward and lazy". Since "backward" is now seen as more prevalent in AP beyond Telangana, we focus on lazy. Some words have such a capacity to get under ones skin (in this case yVijay), so I dig for keywords on this thread as to what started it all..

If there is something before that.. please point me, but here it is so far.

*********Dec 11...

Telengana political elites that were Dhimmified felt victimized under Nizams were left clueless as to who to blame once Nizams were gone. They then found or brainwashed to find, non-Telengana Telugus as source of their victimization. This became political exploitation point.

Congress prodded and exploited the Telengana victimization sentiment for various political advantages and continue to use for political experimentation.

Communists used that sense of victimization and continue to encourage that sense to propagate their ideology even after Nizams were gone.

Telenganas own leaders continue to exploit that Takleef to outrule other AP leaders and get benefit from Telenagana packages given under various governments.

Shyam points out that Telangana political elites have exploited and Vijay responds with new words..

I have had enough of this dhimmified, acting victimized, being lazy, don’t want to study lies and BS. They are as dhimmified and as lazy as rest of telugu people. They strive to educate their as hard as other people. As I said before, their misfortune was being under NIzam.

Shyam responds with below, but his retort and correction get dropped

Please read from political angle not from people angle. Don't impute those words to me for normal people.
We have finest politician PVNR apart from NTR. PVNR came from Nizam education he was neither Dhimmi nor lazy.

**************Dec 17
Comes Airawat with a match unmindful of where it will go.. comment on completely unrelated to telangana..

Inhabitants of Gujarat look down upon the people of the other two regions as lazy and backward.

Abhi_G adds with a general statement..

Airavat-ji, that is a gem. The same "oh they are lazy and do not want to work" allegation seems to be EVERYWHERE in India.

Then Stan folds this into Telangana.. Drops "Telangana political Elites" from sentence "Telangana Political Elites were dhimmified....." adds "backward and lazy". Now, we are making a nice little pile of wood dipped in ghee... , even if unwittingly.

"they were dhimmifed under Nizam." Well, one could do a reverse of that by saying that the costa and seema people are the moderate ones cos they never saw the brutality of the Nizam. What goes for the goose, goes well for the gander too. The question is who is the more rabid and vocal of the two, that is how her-story is written. In all this melee, the same costa and seema people forget that they were also called "backward and lazy"

Then Vijay picks it up again after a week days and is obvious pi$$ed...

So how does that make them lazy? Nagajuna sagar dam is built in telangana but the major share of water goes to Andhra where they can grow three crops and have other agri- businesses (like aqua culture which was possible only after the dam) and then blame telangana people being lazy.

Don't mean to blame anybody.. just saying, this is how debate turns away from issues.

[a_kumar]

Understand context brother. Telangana and 4-coastal district people do huggie-huggie and kissy-kissy as you guys are after all related by blood.

Why do you want to hit stomach of already-poor Rayalaseema and UttarAndhra people by taking away Hyderabad from them. It is them that suffer the most from the split.

this is becoming a riot..

[Stan_Savljevic]

a_kumar, what exactly does dhimmi mean in english? And what is the context in which it has been used on the forum?

PS: Btw, I am under the impression that everyone on the forum is an innocent babyface, just to get things clear.

[yvijay]

And yes nobody has exclusive claim on Hyderabad.

Why do you want to hit stomach of already-poor Rayalaseema and UttarAndhra people by taking away Hyderabad from them. It is them that suffer the most from the split.

ShyamSP, if you read it again I said 'nobody' has exclusive claim on Hyderabad. I mean to say everybody has equal share of Hyderabad.

[a_kumar]

a_kumar, what exactly does dhimmi mean in english? And what is the context in which it has been used on the forum?

PS: Btw, I am under the impression that everyone on the forum is an innocent babyface, just to get things clear.

We can do one better.. By replacing "Telangana political elites" with "they", we have pretty much made it personal to every Telanganite.. Thank You.

Proof? In direct response to your doing the above, yvijay says..

Absolutely Stanji. I don’t know how we (telanganites) are dhimmified.

Do you see where I am coming from? Leaving aside what dhimmi means, the contention is on who it was attributed to, "Telangana people" or "Talangana political elites"

*whine on* While we discuss Vidharba/Telangana/Coastal etc... the world would have zoomed past us and we would be like.. What the f!@k happened.*whine off*

[ShyamSP]

[quote="yvijay"
And yes nobody has exclusive claim on Hyderabad./quote]
Why do you want to hit stomach of already-poor Rayalaseema and UttarAndhra people by taking away Hyderabad from them. It is them that suffer the most from the split.

ShyamSP, if you read it again I said 'nobody' has exclusive claim on Hyderabad. I mean to say everybody has equal share of Hyderabad.

Thank you for noting that Telagana people do not have exclusive claim. Unfortunately, Telenaganavadis don't seem to agree to that. They say it is in their land. If any Hyderabad person raises voice then Tvadis seem to threaten cutting Manjeera water and milk and honey from outer areas to Hyderabad.

The whole episode is like bitter divorce with no divorce and property settlement laws.

Central govt has one line-item that says they can separate. They have precedence of SRC but don't seem to care. They don't care to establish any new laws and procedures to settle. They don't seem to care whether grievances are legitimate or not or extraordinary/unique to them or not and ascertain whether one party is really damaging the other party or not.

One fine day government said go and separate. Two divorcing groups with all illegitimate grievances are settling scores on the streets and stupid Indian government is watching fun and not doing any thing.

To Complicate further, one wants union with different reasons and the other wants separation for different reason that the first party thinks not at all an issue/reason to divorce.

[KLNMurthy]

From what I am aware, there is very little overt desire for separate Telangana among low-end independent laborers / tradesmen / small merchants (e.g., house cleaners, construction workers, vegetable vendors, carpenters etc.)--people generally without too many connections and modest if any business and economic prospects. Most of the push seems to be coming from upwardly mobile professionals or students in those areas, who may have the possibility of making some kind of business income or have career growth in the government-business nexus. In these areas, kinship and caste relationships play a key role in advancement, and here we find a clear divide between the Andhra and Telangana people--I doubt for example that there are inter-marriages as a rule between Andhra & Telangana people; the caste overlap between the regions is also not very much if I am not mistaken. So, even if billions are spent on projects in Telangana, generating low-end employment for locals, the big enrichment opportunities (like contracts, top-level engineering jobs etc.) may be hard for Telanganaites to come by, if the controlling power structure consists of coastal people who would by default favor "their own."

So, it seems to me that the key to understanding these things is that in Indian DNA there is a high level of aspiration, in pursuit of which people don't mind being ruthless and violent. So the struggle here in this instance (as everywhere in India in other instances) tends to be very elemental and violent, similar to mafia wars, making use of intimidation and chasing away the "enemy" (who is defined as the rival standing in the way of realizing aspirations). That would explain the violent "andhrawale bhago" rhetoric and the destruction. The seeming grassroots levels of the agitation itself, including students, colliery workers etc., can then be understood as being the organized sector of this semi-feudal-capitalistic system.

Do people on this forum think this is a reasonable summation of what is going on with respect to Telangana, based on all that is in the media and stated on this forum? If so, we could conclude that grassroots employment with advancement based on merit is irrelevant to a solution, and it would have to based on a "sharing of the spoils" model. It would also explain why KCR is so emotional in saying that Telanganaites were much better off under the nizam--on the face of it, this is absurd from a social health and grassroots welfare point of view, but for people of KCR's class it would make sense, as they were actually a kind of junior partner of the nizam's feudal setup and lived with some pride & dignity (in their view) as the second-to-top dog collecting rent and exploiting the grassroots people.

The raw and intense emotion and the preference to die by fasting rather than to accept a secondary position to the Andhra rivals seems to be very personal for KCR, and not just the result of cold calculation--the sheer visceral drive of feeling like a loser in the drive to fulfill aspirations could explain this.

P.S. I am not out to tread on any sensitivities or insult any people, just trying honestly to parse out what is happening in a rational way.

[Stan_Savljevic]

If so, we could conclude that grassroots employment with advancement based on merit is irrelevant to a solution, and it would have to based on a "sharing of the spoils" model.

We have an equivalent observation in TN between the two thug parties, DMK and ADMK. It is often claimed that under ADMK of the 91-96 and the 2001-06 phases, when the top folks made money, it percolated down to the bottom rungs, down to the last man standing in the form of a pyramid scheme. Not so with the DMK rule of 96-01. Some claim that DMK lost in 2001 despite the overwhelmingly obvious corruption of Amma 91-96 because of this lack of percolation of the spoils all the way down. Not to mention that Mu Ka learned the lessons and now instead of throwing the spoils via a pyramid scheme, he and his cronies now go around stuffing people with cash right before the election day. At the end, we need circulation of cash and stimulus packages, only difference is that this will be the Indic model -- hawala and gajaana looting.

[Airavat]

The dhimmi argument does not work in the case of Gujarat. Here Saurashtra and Kutch were under indigenous rulers, while Gujarat proper was first a sultanate and then a Mughal province.

And yet "dhimmi" Gujarat is progressing while the non-dhimmi areas are backward.

[SwamyG]

India is still yet to under go decolonization in political structure and regional representation.
I understand regional representation, but not the first part in your sentence. What does "decolonization of political structures" mean and look like? TIA.

I am referring to British created west minister system of govt formation and electoral system. British symbols of Parliament should be Indianized. Name changing is only the first process. The term "Collector" etc. should be changed to non exploitive in function also.

Oh okay. Thanks. Yes, several modern countries follow Westminster System. Parliament is called Sansad. But I am sure you mean more about Indianizing the politics? What does the end result look like in your mind?

I don't understand the exploitative part either. Be it Collector or something else; in any form of government there is a representative of the government that will collect taxes. Even the Cholas had an administrative system where the Kingdom had to collect taxes from the people and had some duties towards the people.

[KLNMurthy]

If so, we could conclude that grassroots employment with advancement based on merit is irrelevant to a solution, and it would have to based on a "sharing of the spoils" model.

We have an equivalent observation in TN between the two thug parties, DMK and ADMK. It is often claimed that under ADMK of the 91-96 and the 2001-06 phases, when the top folks made money, it percolated down to the bottom rungs, down to the last man standing in the form of a pyramid scheme. Not so with the DMK rule of 96-01. Some claim that DMK lost in 2001 despite the overwhelmingly obvious corruption of Amma 91-96 because of this lack of percolation of the spoils all the way down. Not to mention that Mu Ka learned the lessons and now instead of throwing the spoils via a pyramid scheme, he and his cronies now go around stuffing people with cash right before the election day. At the end, we need circulation of cash and stimulus packages, only difference is that this will be the Indic model -- hawala and gajaana looting.

So, with AP, there is a genuine kinship divide between Telangana aspirants and the others (though it is less for people of eastern Telangana and Guntur, E. Godavari, Anantapur etc.), therefore it is understandable that people may feel shut out, since they don't experience the system as being an industrial or post-industrial meritocracy, rather as something driven by contacts and kinship.

A joker in the pack that I haven't seen discussed here is the Christianization / evangelization of the power elite, such as YSR, his son-in-law etc. In recent times, Hyderabad (and I guess other places) is full of evangelical meeting notices. Christian/evangelical membership can become another layer of kinship formation, along with caste. Can knowledgeable people talk about relative penetration of christianity in Telangana (in coast and seema it is quite high)? From my anecdotal experience, in rural Telangana people are willing to accept Muslims but are hostile to christians.