MRCA News and Discussion

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sumshyam
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by sumshyam »

Typhoon helmet cleared for operational use

the link says that...
Eurofighter has cleared the Helmet-Mounted Symbology System (HMSS) for its Typhoon combat aircraft and expects it to be in operational use with frontline pilots by the end of the third quarter of 2010, a company spokesperson said on 9 December.
will this...by any means...affect selection procedure...?

any words of wisdom....gurus..!
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

ArmenT wrote: According to this paper by Rand Corp (PDF),
F-15 and F-16 have turnaround times of roughly: 3.4 hours + 0.68 * (flight time in hours)
F-18 is considered to have a "short" turnaround time of 24 hours :eek:
I could not even find "F-18" mentioned in that article. What gives?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

I have serious doubts of the low turnaround time for the Gripen being 10 mins

Really want ot know the breakdown

It might be the lowest - but ten minutes???


The example from the doc mentions these steps.
Find it hard to belive all this can be done in 10 mins even in the pristine non combat conditions?


Land and Taxi 10
Make Aircraft Safe for Ground Ops 5
Shut Down Systems 2
Conduct Post-Flight Inspection/Debrief 15
Re-arm 50
Service 20
Refuel 30
Conduct Pre-Flight Inspection 15
Start Engine 5
Perform Final Systems Check 5
Arm 5
Taxi 10
Wait in Queue 5
Take Off 3
TOTAL
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

pandyan


even then 10 mins??/

just shutting down, refueling and rearming could take more.

I want to see a video - and what arms they use for this 10 min drill.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by ArmenT »

NRao wrote:
ArmenT wrote: According to this paper by Rand Corp (PDF),
F-15 and F-16 have turnaround times of roughly: 3.4 hours + 0.68 * (flight time in hours)
F-18 is considered to have a "short" turnaround time of 24 hours :eek:
I could not even find "F-18" mentioned in that article. What gives?
My bad. I should have linked to this page for F-18
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft ... raft_id=57
The relevant part:
The system, designed with the pilots survivability in mind, is capable of taking rough damage and still having a short turnaround time in terms of maintenance and repair - sometimes as little as 24 hours.
[edit]After some more googling around http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... auvrn.html assumes max. of 2 sorties per day for F-18s in Appendix IV[/edit]

@Surya and Pandyan: Regarding the table that Surya posted from the Rand paper, if you look right below that, it says:
While it may appear that substan-
tial time could be saved by performing the post-flight inspection,
re-arming, service, and refueling operations in parallel, safety
considerations prevent doing so. When refueling or re-arming
operations are in progress, only fuels and munitions personnel are
permitted near an aircraft.
which is why some of those tasks listed in the table cannot be done in parallel. Also, right below that it states
Recent analysis of the relationship between sorties, sortie duration,
and maintenance requirements for F-15 and F-16 aircraft revealed that
there is a constant average of 3.4 hours of maintenance time per sortie
and an additional 0.64 hour of maintenance time for every hour the
aircraft is in the air.3 This relationship yields the following formula
for maintenance time:

MT = 3.4 hours + 0.68FT
This is the formula that I listed for F15 and F16.

The 10 minute time for turnaround for Gripen is one of their selling points in their brochure and has also been quoted by other sources for a few years:
http://www.stratpost.com/gripens-case-to-be-the-mmrca
http://www.vectorsite.net/avgripen.html
http://www.af.mil.za/equip/aircraft/Gripen.htm <-- says " The on-board Built-in Test Equipment reduces fault-finding time and, together with simple swapping of Line Replaceable Units (LRUs), the turn-around time is significantly reduced and the process simplified."
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by ArmenT »

^^^
Gripen is supposed to have less parts to replace per sortie + easier and ergonomic access to the components than most other fighters (at least per the shiny brochures that SAAB puts out). Shorter turn-around times seems to be borne out by other countries that operate the Gripen as well, though the maintenance procedures carried out by the Swedes may not be the same as other Gripen operators. Perhaps this could explain the 10-minute turnaround time. Also I think that the Gripen's statement of turn around time doesn't include landing time, takeoff time or engine shutoff time. They list their turn around times as the time for refuel, reload and system checks. Haven't found any articles to the contrary and I don't think Saab (or any other respectable manufacturer) would stretch the truth too much.

P.S. Can we please keep the deliberate misspellings of names out of this thread please and restrict those to GD and BENIS threads alone.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Hiten »

Last edited by Hiten on 21 Dec 2009 13:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Whatever LCA's are produced in the fothcoming decade,we should take as a "bonus" for the IAF,who simply cannot rely upon the aircraft being inducted according to schedule with the expected capability thanks to the underperforming US engine.Therefore,the MMRCA conetst becomes critical for the IAF.If there is going to be another delay in choosing the aricraft because of various political factors,then our best bet is to buy more in production Sukhois,SU-30MKIs and even SU-34s/35s if need be.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Shankar »

guess the govt understands and hence the latest su-30 batch - more is sure to come next year -
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Manish_Sharma »

rachit wrote:Unfortunately Wickiberg, i also shared some criticisms about the LCA some months ago, and got shut down by the members here as well!! :P
Rachit little confusing, I just checked all your 4 posts and you have not mentioned anywhere about Tejas or Gripen. One post is about how to vote on MRCA, second is about how expensive is Rafale and third is enquiry about a certain camera. :-?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by sumshyam »

i am shifting the post to feedback thread...!
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kanson »

ArmenT wrote: My bad. I should have linked to this page for F-18
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft ... raft_id=57
The relevant part:
The system, designed with the pilots survivability in mind, is capable of taking rough damage and still having a short turnaround time in terms of maintenance and repair - sometimes as little as 24 hours.
....
http://www.af.mil.za/equip/aircraft/Gripen.htm <-- says " The on-board Built-in Test Equipment reduces fault-finding time and, together with simple swapping of Line Replaceable Units (LRUs), the turn-around time is significantly reduced and the process simplified."
Similar to Gripen, F-18 E/F has self-diagnostic systems which is more or less similar to what Gripen do. The link which talked about 24 hrs is not for Super bug. You may like to check the link.

I guess Rafale has something similar. Dont know abt Typhoon. Reg. LCA, drdo people talked about embedded systems in this aspect. One can expect similar system in Mk1 or Mk2.

LCA has less no. of parts. But LRUs... hmm, i dont know.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kanson »

Thanks Austin/Hiten for the links.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Philip wrote:Whatever LCA's are produced in the fothcoming decade,we should take as a "bonus" for the IAF,who simply cannot rely upon the aircraft being inducted according to schedule with the expected capability thanks to the underperforming US engine .Therefore,the MMRCA conetst becomes critical for the IAF.If there is going to be another delay in choosing the aricraft because of various political factors,then our best bet is to buy more in production Sukhois,SU-30MKIs and even SU-34s/35s if need be.
Ohh..k! I know you are a firm opponent of India buying american military equipment but your words here are quite misleading. The US engine you talk about is not under-performing. The GE-F404 delivers the right amount of thrust it was designed to and claimed by the manufacturer. When we selected the engine for the LCA that thrust was deemed enough. The reason for the IAF finding the performance of the LCA with the F404 below par is because of the changed specs and/or miscalculations by the ADA/DRDO. I haven't come across any news articles stating that the GE-F404 engines did not perform as they should.

If anything, the delay can be attributed to our own Kaveri under-performing..but that topic has been discussed to death here.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Shankar »

kaveri performance is sure a point but LCA got delayed also due to us kicking out our engineers post pok 2 and everything had to be started from scratch -but we br fites ahve a short memory and still hanker after US aircraft in MRCA
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by rachit »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
rachit wrote:Unfortunately Wickiberg, i also shared some criticisms about the LCA some months ago, and got shut down by the members here as well!! :P
Rachit little confusing, I just checked all your 4 posts and you have not mentioned anywhere about Tejas or Gripen. One post is about how to vote on MRCA, second is about how expensive is Rafale and third is enquiry about a certain camera. :-?
Yea, well...I think I wrote it sometime during the beginning of the year, but then, I guess a lot of time must have passed in between by the time i came on to make my subsequent post about voting for MRCA, and hence, about 300 of my previous posts were deleted....

In addition, I personally think that at the moment, there is no point comparing the LCA to the Gripen coz essentially, those who argue about the similarities between the two are making one HUGE assumption: that the LCA will essentially materialize to be 'similar' to the Gripen in the 'near' future. I just think that this is quite a prepostuerous and unreasonable assumption. The LCA has anyway been decades into development and is still, to this day, essentially a prototype.

I am not suggesting that the Gripen should be the winner of the MRCA, should the Gripen wins the MRCA, it wont hinder the development of the LCA - it shouldnt! If anything, it should actually aid its development and hopefully, can make it more efficient to make up of the decades of development time and delays we've alreay had! The technologies incorporated in the Gripen are far superior to the LCA, be it the AESA radar, IRST, FBW system, as well as the range of munitions that can be fitted on it. I am not to sure about the WVR and BVR capabilities of the 2 planes, and hence would not want to comment on that.

The generic, underlying statement that 'Gripen should be automatically eliminated from the MRCA race its the same as the LCA' is where I have a problem...
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

In addition, I personally think that at the moment, there is no point comparing the LCA to the Gripen coz essentially, those who argue about the similarities between the two are making one HUGE assumption: that the LCA will essentially materialize to be 'similar' to the Gripen in the 'near' future. I just think that this is quite a prepostuerous and unreasonable assumption. :roll: The LCA has anyway been decades into development and is still, to this day, essentially a prototype.
I keep asking HOW the LCA is so much more slow than any other project and do not get a reply.
all I hear is inane comments like "you cannot expect the LCA to materialise". :roll:

I wonder why the ADA/HAL/IAF folks are spending crores of rupees and lakhs of manhours behind this program, perhaps they just like flying toys. :roll:
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by bart »

rachit wrote:
I just think that this is quite a prepostuerous and unreasonable assumption. The LCA has anyway been decades into development and is still, to this day, essentially a prototype.

The technologies incorporated in the Gripen are far superior to the LCA, be it the AESA radar, IRST, FBW system, as well as the range of munitions that can be fitted on it. I am not to sure about the WVR and BVR capabilities of the 2 planes, and hence would not want to comment on that.

The generic, underlying statement that 'Gripen should be automatically eliminated from the MRCA race its the same as the LCA' is where I have a problem...

What BS...stop passing of your biased and ill-conceived perceptions as fact.
AESA radar, IRST, FBW system, as well as the range of munitions that can be fitted on it
Out of the above, AESA radar, IRST, munitions are not specific to the Gripen, are third party components, other than integration have nothing to do with SAAB or Gripen, and are just as easily procurable for the LCA as well. That leaves FBW system, in which as has already been pointed out in this thread the LCA is much superior while the Gripen simply uses a modified F-16 FBW system and that too has been with a lot of struggle.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

when the gripen c/d get irst and aesa radar may I know?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by nsarma »

"In an emergency, only a 10 minute turnaround is required between missions, as long as only a small amount of ammunition has to be loaded for fighter missions."

Link: http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/ ... R0007e.htm

I'm still googling to find out exact meaning of 'small amount of ammunition' :wink:
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

nsarma wrote:"In an emergency, only a 10 minute turnaround is required between missions, as long as only a small amount of ammunition has to be loaded for fighter missions."

Link: http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/ ... R0007e.htm

I'm still googling to find out exact meaning of 'small amount of ammunition' :wink:
larger is fighter more is turnaround time

just like mki can carry more missiles at a time than gripen and requires more fuel

turnaround time also depend on what type of ammunition(bombs or missiles) being loaded.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by KrishG »

Singha wrote:when the gripen c/d get irst and aesa radar may I know?
There was some news on Selex developing a PIRATE-based IRST system for Gripen-NG called the Skyward-G.

Some nice info on the development of Vixen-1000E and Skyward-G on this month's DTI. Page 43.

http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416108193
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

A very detailed report on the Tejas. I'm guessing most people just don’t read up enough before passing comments on how the Tejas cannot be compared to the "incomparable" Gripen.

When reading about FBW FCS on the Tejas, keep in mind that the Gripen team skipped most of this development effort and time by having BAE Astronics and LM supply the FBW FCS for the Gripen and there was none of the sanctions and extra effort that was needed for the Tejas due to that.

Fly-by-wire Control Laws


One of the most ambitious requirements for the LCA was the specification that it would have "relaxed static stability." Although Dassault had offered an analogue FCS system in 1988, the ADA recognised that digital flight control technology would soon supplant it.[5] RSS technology was introduced in 1974 on the General Dynamics (now Lockheed Martin) YF-16, which was the world's first aircraft to be slightly aerodynamically unstable by design. Most aircraft are designed with "positive" static stability, which means they have a natural tendency to return to level and controlled flight in the absence of control inputs; however, this quality tends to oppose the pilot's efforts to maneuver. An aircraft with "negative" static stability (i.e., RSS), on the other hand, will quickly depart from level and controlled flight unless the pilot constantly works to keep it in trim; while this enhances maneuverability, it is very wearing on a pilot relying on a mechanical flight control system. What made RSS practical on the YF-16 was a new technology — the "fly-by-wire" flight control system — which employs flight computers to electronically keep the aircraft's instability in check whenever it is not desired.

Development of a FBW flight control system requires extensive knowledge of flight control laws and the expensive writing of a considerable amount of software code for the flight control computers, as well as its integration with the avionics and other electronic systems.When the LCA programme was launched, FBW was a state-of-the-art technology and such a sensitive one that India could find no nation willing to export it. Therefore, in 1992 the LCA National Control Law (CLAW) team was set up by the National Aeronautics Laboratory to develop India's own version. The CLAW team's scientists and mathematicians were successful in developing their control laws, but could not test them since India did not possess advanced real-time ground simulators at that time. Accordingly, British Aerospace (BAe) and Lockheed Martin were brought in to help in 1993, but the effort required for the Aeronautical Development Establishment to code the control laws into the FCS software proved a much larger job than originally anticipated.

Specific control law problems were tested on BAe's simulators (and on HAL's, once theirs became available). As it was being developed, progressive elements of the coding were checked out on the "Minibird" and "Ironbird" test rigs at the ADE and HAL, respectively. A second series of inflight simulation tests of the integrated flight control software were conducted on the F-16 VISTA (Variable In-flight Stability Test Aircraft) simulator in the U.S. in July 1996, with 33 test flights being carried out. However, Lockheed Martin's involvement was terminated in 1998 as part of an embargo enacted by the U.S. in response to India's second nuclear tests in May of that year.

The NAL's CLAW team eventually managed to successfully complete integration of the flight control laws indigenously, with the FCS software performing flawlessly for over 50 hours of pilot testing on TD-1, resulting in the aircraft being cleared for flight in early 2001. The LCA's maiden flight was made by TD-1 from National Flight Test Center(NFTC), near Bangalore, on 4 January 2001, and its first successful supersonic flight followed on 1 August 2003. TD-2 was scheduled to make its first flight in September 2001, but this was not achieved until 6 June 2002. The Tejas' automatic flight control system (AFCS) has been highly praised by all of its test pilots, one of whom said that he found it easier to take off with the LCA than in a Mirage [2000].[9]


BTW, the LCA's FBW was almost entirely coded, verified and tested by Indian engineers after they were basically thrown out of the US and their equipment seized in 1998.


Airframe


The LCA is constructed of aluminium-lithium alloys, carbon-fibre composites (CFC), and titanium-alloy steels. The Tejas employs CFC materials for up to 45% of its airframe, including in the fuselage (doors and skins), wings (skin, spars and ribs), elevons, tailfin, rudder, airbrakes and landing gear doors. Composites are used to make an aircraft both lighter and stronger at the same time compared to an all-metal design, and the LCA's percentage employment of CFCs is one of the highest among contemporary aircraft of its class.[34] Apart from making the plane much lighter, there are also fewer joints or rivets, which increases the aircraft's reliability and lowers its susceptibility to structural fatigue cracks.

The tailfin for the LCA is a monolithic honeycomb piece, an approach which reduced its manufacturing cost by 80% compared to the customary "subtractive" or "deductive" method, whereby the shaft is carved out of a block of titanium alloy by a computerized numerically controlled machine. No other manufacturer is known to have made fins out of a single piece. ...means we even innovated new concepts which never existed for other planes [35] A 'nose' for the rudder is added by 'squeeze' riveting.

The use of composites in the LCA resulted in a 40% reduction in the total number of parts compared to using a metallic frame. Furthermore, the number of fasteners has been reduced by half in the composite structure from the 10,000 that would have been required in a metallic frame design. The composite design also helped to avoid about 2,000 holes being drilled into the airframe. Overall, the aircraft's weight is lowered by 21%. While each of these factors can reduce production costs, an additional benefit — and significant cost savings — is realised in the shorter time required to assemble the aircraft — seven months for the LCA as opposed to 11 months using an all-metal airframe.[6]

The airframe of the naval variant of the Tejas will be modified with a nose droop to provide improved view during landing approach, and wing leading-edge vortex controllers (LEVCON) to increase lift during approach. The LEVCONs are control surfaces that extend from the wing-root leading edge and thus afford better low-speed handling for the LCA, which would otherwise be slightly hampered due to the increased drag that results from its delta-wing design. As an added benefit, the LEVCONs will also increase controllability at high angles of attack (AoA).

The naval Tejas will also have a strengthened spine, a longer and stronger undercarriage, and powered nose wheel steering for deck manoeuvrability.[11][36] The Tejas trainer variant will have "aerodynamic commonality" with the two-seat naval aircraft design.[37]


Now, regarding the landing gear- Gripen's landing gear is made by BAE Systems, not by Saab.

Landing gear


The Tejas has a hydraulically retractable tricycle-type landing gear with a pair of single inward-retracting mainwheels and a steerable, twin-wheel forward-retracting nose gear. The landing gear was originally to have been imported, but following the imposition of trade sanctions, HAL developed the entire system independently.

India's Nuclear Fuel Complex (NFC) led the team that developed the titanium half-alloy tubes that are used for hydraulic power transmission and they are critical components in the LCA. India is one of only six nations which have developed this technology, which also has space applications.[38]



quadruplex digital FCS against the triplex redundant FCS with 1 analog channel back up in the Gripen.

Flight controls


Since the Tejas is a "relaxed static stability" design, it is equipped with a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system to ease handling by the pilot. The Tejas' aerodynamic configuration is based on a pure delta-wing layout with shoulder-mounted wings. Its control surfaces are all hydraulically actuated. The wing's outer leading edge incorporates three-section slats, while the inboard sections have additional slats to generate vortex lift over the inner wing and high-energy air-flow along the tail fin to enhance high-AoA stability and prevent departure from controlled flight. The wing trailing edge is occupied by two-segment elevons to provide pitch and yaw control. The only empennage-mounted control surfaces are the single-piece rudder and two airbrakes located in the upper rear part of the fuselage, one each on either side of the fin.

The digital FBW system of the Tejas employs a powerful digital flight control computer (DFCC) comprising four computing channels, each with its own independent power supply and all housed in a single LRU. The DFCC receives signals from a variety of sensors and pilot control stick inputs, and processes these through the appropriate channels to excite and control the elevons, rudder and leading edge slat hydraulic actuators. The DFCC channels are built around 32-bit microprocessors and use a subset of the Ada language for software implementation. The computer interfaces with pilot display elements like the MFDs through MIL-STD-1553B multiplex avionics data buses and RS-422 serial links.



I am yet to see ANY system on the Gripen that is "incomparable" to the Tejas. lets look at the avionics-


Avionics


The Tejas has a night vision goggles (NVG)-compatible "glass cockpit" that is dominated by an indigenous head-up display (HUD), three 5 in x 5 in multi-function displays, two Smart Standby Display Units (SSDU), and a "get-you-home" panel. The CSIO-developed HUD, Elbit-furnished DASH helmet-mounted display and sight (HMDS), and hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controls reduce pilot workload and increase situation awareness by allowing the pilot to access navigation and weapon-aiming information with minimal need to spend time "head down" in the cockpit.

The MFDs provide information on the engine, hydraulics, electrical, flight control, and environmental control systems on a need-to-know basis, along with basic flight and tactical information. Dual redundant display processors produce computer-generated imagery on these displays. The pilot interacts with the complex avionics systems through a simple multifunction keyboard and function and sensor selection panels.

Target acquisition is accomplished through a state-of-the-art radar — potentially supplemented by a laser designator pod, forward-looking infra-red (FLIR) or other opto-electronic sensors — to provide accurate target information to enhance kill probabilities. A ring laser gyro (RLG)-based inertial navigation system (INS) provides accurate navigation guidance to the pilot. The LCA also has secure and jam-resistant communication systems such as the "identify friend or foe" (IFF) transponder/interrogator, VHF/UHF radios, and air-to-air/air-to-ground datalinks. The ADA Systems Directorate's Integrated Digital Avionics Suite (IDAS) integrates the flight controls, environmental controls, aircraft utilities systems management, stores management system (SMS), etc. on three 1553B buses by a centralised 32-bit, high-throughput mission computer.


Self-protection


An advanced electronic warfare suite enhances the Tejas' survivability during deep penetration and combat. The LCA's EW suite is being developed by the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) — which was known as the Advanced Systems Integration and Evaluation Organisation (ASIEO) until June 2001 — with support from the Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL).[8] This EW suite, known as "Mayavi" (Sanskrit: "Magician"), includes a radar warning receiver (RWR), self-protection jammer, laser warning system, missile approach warning system, and chaff/flare dispenser. In the interim, the Indian Defence Ministry has revealed that an unspecified number of EW suites have been purchased from Israel's Elisra for the LCA prototypes.[39]

The ADA claims that a degree of stealth has been designed into the Tejas. Being very small, there is an inherent degree of "visual stealth", but the airframe's use of a high degree of composites (which do not themselves reflect radar waves), a Y-duct inlet which shields the engine compressor face from probing radar waves, and the application of radar-absorbent material (RAM) coatings are intended to minimise its susceptibility to detection and tracking by the radars of enemy fighters, airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, active-radar air-to-air missiles (AAM), and surface-to-air missile (SAM) defense systems.

Escape systems

To improve pilot safety during ejection, the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune, India created a new line-charged canopy severance system, which has been certified by Martin-Baker. This system, which is the first of its kind, can be operated from outside the aircraft, an important consideration when the pilot is trapped or unconscious.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

Kanson wrote: Similar to Gripen, F-18 E/F has self-diagnostic systems which is more or less similar to what Gripen do. The link which talked about 24 hrs is not for Super bug. You may like to check the link.

I guess Rafale has something similar. Dont know abt Typhoon. Reg. LCA, drdo people talked about embedded systems in this aspect. One can expect similar system in Mk1 or Mk2.

LCA has less no. of parts. But LRUs... hmm, i dont know.


the LCA has Line Replacable Units (LRUs), so that’s not something unique on a Gripen.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

quadruplex digital FCS against the triplex redundant FCS with 1 analog channel back up in the Gripen.
actually dassault had offered a digi-ana FCS like the one still used on the 'incomparable' gripen which was not good enough for LCA and they refused.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by negi »

Fwiw there were reports of LCA team working closely with L&M on the FCS in massa before the sanctions the choice of quadruplex FCS is obvious AFAIK all the F-16 Block 40 and above have switched to the same.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

negi wrote:Fwiw there were reports of LCA team working closely with L&M on the FCS in massa before the sanctions the choice of quadruplex FCS is obvious AFAIK all the F-16 Block 40 and above have switched to the same.
why obvious ?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by negi »

Well F-16 C/D Bock 40 was already flying with a quadruplex FBW in 1988 so from a theoretical pov the concept of a complete digital FBW was already proven moreover it is my gut feeling that a digi-ana FCS would have meant a heavier AC as against a complete digital FCS something very critical given tight tolerances with regards to Tejas's empty weight.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by narayana »

IS this LCA thread or MRCA,im confused :?:
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

rachit wrote:In addition, I personally think that at the moment, there is no point comparing the LCA to the Gripen coz essentially, those who argue about the similarities between the two are making one HUGE assumption: that the LCA will essentially materialize to be 'similar' to the Gripen in the 'near' future. I just think that this is quite a prepostuerous and unreasonable assumption. The LCA has anyway been decades into development and is still, to this day, essentially a prototype.
BS. if you want to insist that the LCA has been "decades" into development, then its obvious that you either don't want to or cannot comprehend the timelines of the Tejas program..do you understand how many years it took to get the FCS ready for the Tejas ? in 1993, the CLAW team was formed to work on the FCS-and despite the fact that Indian scientists were thrown out of the US, and lost 3 years or so, they managed to get it all done by 2001. its respectable for a first time effort of such magnitude.
as for the "HUGE" assumption, most of the equipment we're talking about on the Tejas is ALREADY FLYING on board the prototypes and LSPs. LSP-3 will get the MMR, VOR, TACAN and ILS and none of this is fiction. I don't see any worthwhile points you mention except some airy-fairy "quite preposterous and unreasonable assumption" statements..

The technologies incorporated in the Gripen are far superior to the LCA, be it the AESA radar, IRST, FBW system, as well as the range of munitions that can be fitted on it. I am not to sure about the WVR and BVR capabilities of the 2 planes, and hence would not want to comment on that.

The generic, underlying statement that 'Gripen should be automatically eliminated from the MRCA race its the same as the LCA' is where I have a problem...
AESA ? thats on the Gripen NG and its nowhere even close to being a mature system and it only recently flew on board the Demo..oh and its a Selex product, not Ericsson one, so is no indigenous to Sweden . the Gripen C/D has a mechanically scanned array PS/05A unit, that will be comfortably matched by the MMR/Elta 032 hybrid that will be there on the Tejas Mk1 LSP3. oh and the Gripen C/D DOES NOT have any IRST, so much for your generic claims. :roll: and pray please enlighten us on how a triplex redundant FBW with analog back up is superior to the quadruplex digital FBW on the Tejas ? in case you don't know, 2 Gripen crashes were attributed to its FCS. how that proves its superior to the Tejas' FBW, only God knows.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

Singha wrote:when the gripen c/d get irst and aesa radar may I know?
It didn't.. :wink: the guy simply didn't know that the AESA and IRST are supposed to be fit on the Gripen NG and that neither are fit on the Gripen C/D.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

Kanson wrote:I guess Rafale has something similar. Dont know abt Typhoon. Reg. LCA, drdo people talked about embedded systems in this aspect. One can expect similar system in Mk1 or Mk2.

LCA has less no. of parts. But LRUs... hmm, i dont know.
the LCA also has self-diagnostic systems..this is from Harry who was on BRF and Keypubs earlier, so I believe it to be true.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by ArmenT »

^^^^
Thanks. Wonder if the turn-around times are similar as well. Guess it'll come out when the first units are inducted.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

even aside from harry I've read it in most LCA related reports from the late 90's, before I was on BR. ease of maintenance too was a very crucial point in LCA design and there were considerable improvements in the LRU's from PV-1 onwards towards this end IIRC.

it's not something unique to gripen.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

An interesting point of view from a US F-18SH pilot,in an issue of IDR not too long ago,when comparing the F-15E Strike Eagle and the F-18SH,both being touted by Boeing for the US's allies.He said that he preferred the F-15E as aginst the F-18SH because "it flew faster and further" than the F-18SH trying to be a jack of all trades.

Add to this Air Marshal Masand's reminiscing about the MIG-29 vs Mirage-2000 contest (some details quoted some time ago),results a secret, in one of the VAYU issues earlier this year,where the basic MIG-29 in service trounced the M-2000 in every aspect,indicates that the idea of upgrading the M-2000s at the cost that the French expect is unwise.The MiIG-29s are being upgraded and will therefor eprove even better than an upgraded M-2000 at far cheaper cost.The Air Marshal's piece also had him waxing elequent about the MIG-35s capabiulities,which he flew at this year's Aero-India,which he said as an old timer,he found so easy to fly dspite his age and fact that he was in retirement,and wondered what extra it would do in the hands of younger IAF pilots.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by merlin »

then its obvious that you either don't want to or cannot comprehend
IOW, either a troll or stupid?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

wouldn't more number of LRUs be better for faster replacement during operational time? or is it more headache to figure out which LRU is at fault. Kampooters should handle most of the analysis.
?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

yea yea yea

another Air marshal says something and it gets quoted with nary a thought or context

well talk to some mig 23 pilots and they would say how they managed to get behind a mig 29

does not mean the 29 is not a good idea


every aircraft has its plusses andminuses.


but overall the M2k is more versatile than the existing 29
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Surya,the AM wrote a lengthy article in an issue of VAYU describing in detail how the MIG-29 was superior to the M-2000 every time they flew against each other at Pune and how the Mirage CO just couldn't believe it, finally squaring off with the AM himself...and lost! A Brit pilot at Aero-India this year,who has flown almost all western types,including those contesting, told me how "nothing flies like the (MIG) 35" and that "even the earlier MIG-29 is fantastic aircraft" (he flew German MIG-29s).He however touted the Typhoon as having the best cockpit interface with the pilot,the ease with which info was delivered to the pilot making his job easier and said that the Typhoon could even take on the SU-30MKI.Whatever the truth of that claim,his praise for the MIG-29/35 was genuine.The aerobatic performance of the MIG-35 at Farnborough was the best ever,said Flight Intl.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

w/o doubt the aerobatics is fantastic but that is only one factor out of a dozen, on many of which the mig-29 lost out to the M2k. IIRC ACM Tyagi also said something to this end "what matters is what's inside" while in russia after witnessing a Mig-29OVT (?) display. '35 wasn't flying back then.
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