Indian Naval Discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Dec 2009 12:56

Coming back to the Scorpene deal,I just cannot understand how the IN,MOD,political bosses all agreed upon building the whole lot here-over ambitious babus as usual,when sub building skills that were obtained at length with the HDW U-209 subs,were all lost in the "lost years".The deal should've had the first two built abroad,with the rest also built simultaneously at home,after small intervals which would've allowed Indian sub builders to watch how it was being done in France or Spain.This is on top of the dealy in placing the order which PC objected to because of France wanting extra when the new Congress led dispnsation came to power.To contract for a sub without fixing prices for the engines,and other key items,is simply apalling and shows that the entire system of defence deal acquisitions in the GOI is totally bonkers. The dear Lord help the armed forces.One can count on the fingers of one hand the projects that are going smoothly.

If the Amur hasn't yet been perfected (perhaps Putin's visit to the Russian yard were he saw a sub being built, could be an indication of concern about delivery delays),then another option is modernised new AIP Kilos with Brahmos as an immediate stop-gap solution to the problem of dwindling numbers.This might be the fastest method.The Kilos are still being built for new customers ,indicating their capability despite the age of the basic design.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 21 Dec 2009 13:23

The babus who insisted on maximum possible indigenization in Leander class frigates built in India were also 'over ambitious' by that token. We have developed a tendency to breast beat and paint everyone of a particular category with same brush.

Mistakes have been made. The need of hour is to work around that. IMHO, the parts decided to be indigenized was more of a judgemental call made to build capabilities (similar to Leander project). But which back fired. I am not saying sticks and axes should not be used. But we can do without the harangue that is prevalent in BRF nowadays.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 21 Dec 2009 13:49

maz wrote:Pictures from 2009 Op Demo at Vizag

I am uploading pictures from Op Demo at Vizag. Please visit the gallery at

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... Demo+2009/

OK. Found the MARCOS pics. Incredible how they seem to be unaffected by the Sea King's downwash.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Dec 2009 13:54

SNaik wrote:@ Philip

Unfortunately, Amur is nowhere near to be produced for export. Lead ship of Lada class is still on trials. Two main problems plague her - main electric engine produces only 2 MW instead of projected 4 MW, due to faulty electric circuitry and alternators (switces and circuit's kick-out and burn regularly); data obtained from Lira sonar suit does not process very well in Lithium CMS, software glitches and output/input mismatches.
Meanwhile, production of 2nd and 3rd hull are put on stand-by.

Well during 2009 Russian Naval Day the Navy Chief mentioned that first Lada will be commisioned in the navy by 2010 and 5 would be inducted by 2015 , but it took unusual long which is ~ 6 years from test to induction perhaps the problem with new system took their own time to get rectified.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 21 Dec 2009 20:27

Whats "MARCOS(E)"

maz wrote:Pictures from 2009 Op Demo at Vizag

I am uploading pictures from Op Demo at Vizag. Please visit the gallery at

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... Demo+2009/

Amit A · Post by **Amit A** » 22 Dec 2009 00:44

Found the MARCOS pics. Incredible how they seem to be unaffected by the Sea King's downwash.

I think it's because the MARCO's are protected by the body of the seaking from the wash from the rotors.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Dec 2009 01:04

marimuthu wrote:Thanks Karan, May Allah bless you with 72 PYTs. Well is there a article about ATV in this issue. If yes can you repeat the process for that also. Will recommand to Allah to increase your quota of PYTs

karan_mc wrote:Very tempting offer here it is ,hope you can bend your neck for it

May allah bless you with all. I too join in with everyone in praying for the above mentioned increase in the quota. I've straightened the images.

Many thanks Karan.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Dec 2009 01:46

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnava ... 91221.aspx India even looked into buying one of the new, 65,000 ton, British Queen Elizabeth class carriers (for about $6 billion).

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Dec 2009 03:36

Are you surprised at the news about IN checking that ship out or the price?

BTW is the price exaggerated considering this will be produced at a british yard?

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Dec 2009 03:42

Gagan wrote:... I've straightened the images.

Many thanks Karan.

From the article above, IN is planning for 10-12 SSN/SSBNs by around 2018 (bit optimistic). It also mentions 4 more ATVs are planned (total 5) by 2025 and that it is possible that IN to go in for more leased Russian SSNs (other than the 2 Akulas).

Let's see what IN's submarine fleet will look like in 2025:

Known
5 ATV SSBN
2 Akula SSN

6 Scorpene SSK
6 P75A class SSK
---------------------
Total: 19 submarines (7 nuclear + 12 conventional)

Probable
3 Akula SSN (which will bring the nuclear powered fleet to 10)

While IN will have shortfalls in submarines until 2015 (with older subs being retired faster than new ones inducted), the years between 2015-2025 will be IN's golden years for the submarine arm.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Dec 2009 03:58

A few kilos might still be around in 2025.

Are issues a better crew comfort getting addressed? I understand that the crew just loves the U-209s. Western ergonomics and crew comfort needs to be adapted by both Indian and Russia wrt all future projects, as both nations are doing much better economically.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Dec 2009 07:34

Gagan wrote:Are you surprised at the news about IN checking that ship out or the price?

BTW is the price exaggerated considering this will be produced at a british yard?

nope, correct price onlee. what was supposed to be program cost for 2 CVFs has now become the price of one !

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Dec 2009 08:03

Rahul M wrote:nope, correct price onlee. what was supposed to be program cost for 2 CVFs has now become the price of one !

My turn to say

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 22 Dec 2009 09:30

6 Scorpene SSK
6 P75A class SSK

Why not S-80 with AIP from navantia,If we order in good numbers there is a fair chance of full TOT.
Specs
Kind of submarine: SSK
Displacement (Surface): 2.200 t
Displacement (Submerged): 2.426 t
Length: 71,05 m
Beam: 11,68 m
Draught: 6,02 m
Propulsion:

* 3 diesel engines
* 1 electric engine
* 1 AIP reactor

Speed (Surface): 12 knots
Speed (Submerged): 19 knots
Range:

* 50/60 days of navigation in surface
* 20/30 days of navigation submerged at 4 knots

Complement:

* 3 Officers
* 4 Subofficers
* 25 sailors
* 8 Special Forces soldiers

Armament:

* 6 x 533mm torpedo launchers
* DM2/A4 Torpedos
* Mk48 Torpedos
* Sub-Harpoon Block II missiles
* Tomahawk TacTom Cruise missiles (range about 1600 km)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Dec 2009 14:42

There is no way that the US is going to sell us LR Tomahawak missiles and violate the MTCR.IN subs require not just a land attack cruise missile,but apart from Klub,etc. already in service, Brahmos missiles especially aboard our subs.If the Amur design incorporating Brahmos has some more work on the sub to be done,then it is also unlikely that a French or German design would suffice for line 2 because of Russia's unwillingness to fit Brahmos onto a NATO origin sub.Wec should just buy a few more German U-214s,to add to and eventually replace the U-209s acquired in the '80s and get a Russian or Russo-Ital deisgn for the Brahmos AIP sub for line-2.These subs would add to the Kilo contingent and begin to replace the older ones in due course.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 22 Dec 2009 15:08

narayana wrote: Why not S-80 with AIP from navantia,If we order in good numbers there is a fair chance of full TOT.

Sale of S-80 would require the approval of Unkil as many systems on board the S-80 are from the US. The submarine itself was designed with the assistance of Lockheed. All with all projects done with US-help, this particular sale would require the approval of Congress and would be subject to stringent requirements.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Dec 2009 16:26

Gagan wrote:A few kilos might still be around in 2025.

Are issues a better crew comfort getting addressed? I understand that the crew just loves the U-209s. Western ergonomics and crew comfort needs to be adapted by both Indian and Russia wrt all future projects, as both nations are doing much better economically.

Well if an IN submariner needs and dreams of comfort then he should join the IAF , if its submarine it will be uncomfortable the Kilo provide far better comfort than Foxtrot and IN still operate the Foxtrot

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 23 Dec 2009 00:24

Saab is responding to an Indian Navy (IN) request for information (RfI) regarding future carrier-capable fighters with a new development of the Gripen NG

http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/200 ... ripen.html
http://jdw.janes.com/public/jdw/index.shtml

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Dec 2009 00:31

Austin wrote:
Well if an IN submariner needs and dreams of comfort then he should join the IAF , if its submarine it will be uncomfortable the Kilo provide far better comfort than Foxtrot and IN still operate the Foxtrot

reminds me of gene hackman in crimson tide !

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 23 Dec 2009 00:53

it was on the lines of-

' I expect you to give me your best ... anything less and you should have joined the airforce'

Masaru · Post by **Masaru** » 23 Dec 2009 02:33

Navy for second line of submarines construction

Indian Navy on Tuesday pushed the envelope asking the government to identify shipyards to begin construction of the second line of submarines as per plans.Sources in the Ministry said the Navy’s push also comes as its submarine force level is depleting and as per current estimates it is expected to drop to 60 per cent of the current level of 16 odd submarines over the next five-six years and touch 50 per cent by 2020.

The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence in its latest report to Parliament last week mentioned that the Defence Acquisition Council(DAC) had during March 2003 directed that the Navy should not let the force level fall below 140 ships as against the existing force level of 130 ships .

As per Indian Navy Staff Qualitative Requirements plan approved a decade ago, 24 submarines were to be constructed in series. The project-75 envisaged six of these to be constructed in the first phase (2000-2012) and the balance in the second phase (2013-2030).

Now, the Navy wants the government to identify the shipyards so that the second batch of 6 under project-75 India is undertaken and the rest 12 being wholly indigenous.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Dec 2009 03:53

India should buy at least 54 Gripens - just for their effort. Accept whatever ToT makes sense.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 23 Dec 2009 04:25

Waste of money. N-LCA and Mig-29k would be enough.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Dec 2009 07:26

any idea where the second line setup would be?
--

on the sea-gripen, wouldn't IN be interested in an operational twin-engine a/c?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Dec 2009 08:33

NRao wrote:India should buy at least 54 Gripens - just for their effort. Accept whatever ToT makes sense.

Yes. As per the various articles that have appeared on the net, the IAF apparently likes the Gripens very much. And it was due in major part to gripen's offerings that the other MRCA contenders began to improve on their offers.

Saab is going through tough times, their automobile business just folded up.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 23 Dec 2009 08:41

SaiK wrote: on the sea-gripen, wouldn't IN be interested in an operational twin-engine a/c?

afaik, that is a US navy mandate, but not a bad idea.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 23 Dec 2009 08:45

on the sea-gripen, wouldn't IN be interested in an operational twin-engine a/c?

Like the Naval Tejas ?

US NAVY Mandate? They have operated Single engined fighters/Attack aircrafts before and F 35 C is going to be their future AC.

Saab is going through tough times, their automobile business just folded up.

SAAB sold that to GM ages ago. It is like saying if RR Cars stop production RR Aero Engines are in shit.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Dec 2009 09:11

Gotcha on the engines..

Going by IN's recent purchases of khan platforms, I'd not be surprised IN showing interests towards f35 lightening-I(ndic).

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Dec 2009 09:16

Navy for second line of submarines construction

Indian Navy on Tuesday pushed the envelope asking the government to identify shipyards to begin construction of the second line of submarines as per plans.Sources in the Ministry said the Navy’s push also comes as its submarine force level is depleting and as per current estimates it is expected to drop to 60 per cent of the current level of 16 odd submarines over the next five-six years and touch 50 per cent by 2020.

IIRC, the headline is bit misleading....It should be identifying yards for 2nd batch of 1st line of subs ( Scorpenes). Sad that we have not even zeroed in on where the second 6 of six scorpenes will be built. Only seems to confirm that the second line of subs ( Amur or whichever) is still a very long way off.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Dec 2009 09:18

President Patil to board INS Viraat today

India's [ Images ] only aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, will have a special guest on Wednesday -- President Pratibha Devisingh Patil.

Patil, the supreme commander of the country's armed forces, will get on board the ship at around 11 am on Wednesday, a spokesman of the Indian Navy said in Mumbai [ Images ].

The President is expected to witness Sukhoi Su-30 and Sea Harrier fighter jets take off from the ship during her three hour stay.

The 28,000-tonne INS Viraat, the Centaur class aircraft carrier, was originally commissioned in the British Royal Navy as HMS Hermes Nov 18, 1959. The Indian Navy acquired it in 1987.

The President also scheduled to attend a Fleet Review early next year.

Despite all her flaws, good to see the Prez taking interest is joyrides with the forces which in turn boost the PR effort of the forces.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 23 Dec 2009 09:24

President Patil to board INS Viraat today

The President is expected to witness Sukhoi Su-30 and Sea Harrier fighter jets take off from the ship during her three hour stay.

The DDM striketh again

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 23 Dec 2009 09:30

SaiK wrote:Gotcha on the engines..

Going by IN's recent purchases of khan platforms, I'd not be surprised IN showing interests towards f35 lightening-I(ndic).

F 35-B (or C if we are going to have conventional carriers) is not a bad option for the IN. It will be really expensive though and more stringy than a plate of noodles.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 23 Dec 2009 11:30

johnny_m wrote:US NAVY Mandate? They have operated Single engined fighters/Attack aircrafts before and F 35 C is going to be their future AC.

Prior to F-35, their policy leans towards a twin engine design only. There were lot of planes post WW-II which were single engined and operated from carriers. But since the 1960-70 (F-4, F-14, F-18), all conventional take off fixed wing designs have carried two engines. I am not sure about the why - may be if one engine fails in flight they can still land using their FBW and controls.

The harriers, F-35 etc and other vertical take off designs are exceptions.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Dec 2009 11:37

It is for the second line of subs,with the porivate yards like L&T getting their act together to build a new class of conventional AIP/Brahmos subs.The Amur has been the favourite for this line,but we have to see what develops.The Scorpenes will arrive several years late from all available accounts and the urgent need is to augment the sub fleet.One solution would be to buy more AIP U-214s that can fire Klub missiles,possibly 4 to eventually replace the U-boats in service, and also acquire/build the Brahmos Amur subs with the same German AIP system as in the U-214s,a quid-pro-quo for allowing the Klub to be carried by a German sub.The second line would gradually replace the older Kilos,plus immediately replace the ancient two Foxtrots still doing yeoman service.Adding to the number of Akulas is another effective way to build up the IN sub's capabilities.

Meanwhile more on the Navy's SOS regarding the fast depleting sub fleet.(Bl**dy babus!)
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1091223/j ... 899438.jsp

Navy sends SOS on ageing submarines

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 23 Dec 2009 12:31

Fine procurement systems we have and a finer military establishment. The air force is facing fleet depletion yet babus/air force cannot decide which fighter to buy - (since 2001?); the navy is similarly facing reduced numbers of subs/carriers/fighters and yet we cannot buy/produce them fast enough. What if an emergency was to suddenly be thrust upon us? The Chinese will not say - "Arm yourself, we will wait. Once you feel you are ready, may we please attack you".

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2009 13:22

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Ce ... st/557883/

Centre plans new shipyard on east coast
KG Narendranath
Posted: Wednesday, Dec 23, 2009 at 2221 hrs IST
Updated: Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 at 2328 hrs IST

New Delhi: With the defence ministry set to take over Vizag’s Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) for building military vessels for the navy, the government intends to set up a new commercial shipyard on the east cost. The new shipyard will be built through the joint venture (public-private partnership) route and the strategic partner from the private sector will be selected through a competitive process, a senior government official told FE.

“With the HSL going to the defence, our merchant shipbuilding capacity in the public sector will come down significantly. From the strategic point of view also, it is necessary to have a large shipyard on the east cost wherein the government has a significant stake,” the official said. The shipping ministry has included the proposal for a new public-private shipyard in the cabinet note on transfer of HSL, the source added. The JV shipyard will require total investment of about Rs. 4,000 crore, although the exact plans are to be made. The government is also weighing options on the exact location of the new shipyard.

Currently, India has seven public sector commercial shipyards, besides the naval shipyards in Mumbai and Vizag. Apart from HSL, Cochin Shipyard Ltd, Alcock Ashdown, Garden Peach, Goa Shipyard, Mazagoan Dock and Hooghly Docks are the other public sector shipyards. There are over thirty private units that either build ships or repair them, like Bharati, L&T, Pipavav, Sesa Goa, Alang Marina, ABG, Adani etc.

India’s ship fleet is now 938-strong, and the gross tonnage is 9.38 million tonne (mt). The government had earlier set a target to increase the capacity to 15 mt by 2012, but the global economic crisis has upset that plan. Indian carriers handle less than 10% of India’s foreign trade at present.

The defence and shipping ministries have already agreed for transfer of HSL to the former.

Since its inception, HSL has built around 150 ships and repaired over 1,800 besides undertaking naval repairs. The shipyard also has work orders worth Rs 2,000 crore to be completed by March 2011, a recent agency report said.

HSL’s website says its objective is “to become a world class ship yard, to serve the shipping requirement of the mercantile marine, oil & offshore and defence sectors.” With its strategic location, HSL’s new role would be build frigates, destroyers and submarines for the navy. With the nation’s naval fleet ageing, the government has a target to build 100 warships over the next 10 years and HSL will be a major component of the plan. The defence ministry has plans to infuse funds into the unit to equip it for the planned defence production.

The shipping ministry had earlier got the public sector unit’s current assets valued at over Rs 1,000 crore by Axis Bank.

Currently, Japan, China and Korea share 70% of the world’s shipbuilding capacity between themselves.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Dec 2009 17:42

Since the basic concept of the VTOL was russkie, surprising migs/sukhois are not thinking on this export line?

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 23 Dec 2009 18:02

Navy for second line of submarines construction

As per Indian Navy Staff Qualitative Requirements plan approved a decade ago, 24 submarines were to be constructed in series. The project-75 envisaged six of these to be constructed in the first phase (2000-2012) and the balance in the second phase (2013-2030).

Now, the Navy wants the government to identify the shipyards so that the second batch of 6 under project-75 India is undertaken and the rest 12 being wholly indigenous.

12 Indigenous class + 6 Project-75A class + 6 Project-75 (scorpene)

saurav.jha · Post by **saurav.jha** » 23 Dec 2009 20:05

these indigenous class will be diesel ...i guess??? what about the nuke ones..???

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 23 Dec 2009 20:08

Are these paper (that too old paper) subs good enough to match the PLAN?