Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 14 Dec 2009 21:27

Gaur wrote:^^
First of all, the max thrust that Kaveri has managed to achieve is suspect.
Contradicting 80KN figure, Ajai Shukla has several times mentioned 65KN as the max thrust.
But even if the thrust is 80KN, the bypass ratio of Kaveri is really low.
And even if all was hunky dory with the figures, integrating Kaveri with Tejas would require the testings to begin from scratch (most of them anyways), significantly delaying the IOC.

The DRDO Dossier of Oct 2009 (page 12) says 81KN :-(
Link: http://www.drdo.com/pub/techfocus/2009/oct09.pdf

Looks like they have mentioned the thrust that they hope to achieve, rather than what has been achieved (Gurus, pls help). What exactly is the dossier saying? This topic is also being discussed in LCA discussion and the same document is being referred.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 18 Dec 2009 13:51

Rich bacchas and their Khilonas

I thought I should mention it because I spotted a Desi name in the article:

We have developed a situational awareness application based on military messaging standards that provide multimedia access, audio and textual point of interest, free text messaging, collaborative planning, spot reports and emergency call for fire," said Tushar Patel, director of Advanced Programs and Technology at Raytheon's Network Centric Systems.

Here is a picture of apparently what this looks like: http://www.defencetalk.com/raytheon-tur ... ols-23424/

So, how exactly are we supposed to use texting and multimedia during the heat of the battle?
Here are some future text messages to explain it:

Private> sup sgt
sergeant> nm u?
Private> nm either. umm cn v get sum air burst rnds 200 yds in frnt of me.
sergeant> sure thing
sergeant> there u go any hits?
Private> gud sht yup, 2 dead cows. lol
sergeant> rofl dam son
sergeant> come on man, gimme somthin real
private> srry I waz gitting bored with this heat and all :-(
sergeant> I fil you man brb i have to finish this youtube video. la8r

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 18 Dec 2009 19:28

Team, I was doing some basic reading up about radars and RCS in particular. I am not able to find answers to the foll Questions:

1. Let's say "A" has an RCS of 1sq.m at 100km and B has an RCS of 1sqm at 50 km from the radar. Can our radar distinguish between the two and accurately say that target A is at 100km and B is at 50km? Or do we have approx RCS values for all enemy fighters and have algorithms to calculate the distance based on them?
My feeling is that with advances in technology, it is the former, but I may be wrong. Since radar waves travel at the speed of light, i would be impossible to calculate the time-lag between the emitting source and the receiver receiving the reflection.

2. If an aircraft is being painted by a radar, can it tell the distance at which this radar is? Can it accurately distinguish whether the radar source is a Phalcon AWACS or Flanker or Fulcrum or LCA some other a/c? I am assuming it can at most distinguish between AWACS and other a/c.

3. One Q regarding the capabilities of our Phalcon AWACS: Lets say the Phalcon is tracking a flight of 6 bandits. If some of them release chaff and flares, can the Phalcon correctly distinguish beween the bandits and the chaff? I am assuming it can. In this scenario, can we develop a missile that gets its guidance from the AWACS to reach the target, much like the AWACS can guide the a/c while the a/c own radars are on stand-by? if yes, chaff and flares shall be rendered useless against such missiles! Ofcourse, these missiles would inherently need to be long range missiles.

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 18 Dec 2009 20:10

Mayuresh wrote:Team, I was doing some basic reading up about radars and RCS in particular. I am not able to find answers to the foll Questions:

1. Let's say "A" has an RCS of 1sq.m at 100km and B has an RCS of 1sqm at 50 km from the radar. Can our radar distinguish between the two and accurately say that target A is at 100km and B is at 50km? Or do we have approx RCS values for all enemy fighters and have algorithms to calculate the distance based on them?
My feeling is that with advances in technology, it is the former, but I may be wrong. Since radar waves travel at the speed of light, i would be impossible to calculate the time-lag between the emitting source and the receiver receiving the reflection.

Modern day radars can easily distinguish "A" & "B". They can detect both range and velocity as well as identify the target using Radar signatures. With modern circuitry time lag can easily be measured. Light travels 1 m in 3.33 ns and 1km in 3.33uS which is more than sufficient for measuring time delay. However RADARS use phase lag to measure distance and velocity.

Mayuresh wrote: 2. If an aircraft is being painted by a radar, can it tell the distance at which this radar is? Can it accurately distinguish whether the radar source is a Phalcon AWACS or Flanker or Fulcrum or LCA some other a/c? I am assuming it can at most distinguish between AWACS and other a/c.

To the best of my knowledge the modern RWRs can detect the distance at which the radar. (Atleast the Americans can). Once the signal is detected from a particular direction the aircraft's own radar is pointed in that direction and it will be used to identify the distance, velocity as well as ID the source.

Mayuresh wrote: 3. One Q regarding the capabilities of our Phalcon AWACS: Lets say the Phalcon is tracking a flight of 6 bandits. If some of them release chaff and flares, can the Phalcon correctly distinguish beween the bandits and the chaff? I am assuming it can. In this scenario, can we develop a missile that gets its guidance from the AWACS to reach the target, much like the AWACS can guide the a/c while the a/c own radars are on stand-by? if yes, chaff and flares shall be rendered useless against such missiles! Ofcourse, these missiles would inherently need to be long range missiles.

If Phalcon is as good as they tell it is, it can easily detect chaff. Flares are countermeasures for heat seeking infrared not for RADAR.
There will be a lot of technical difficulties in such a scheme you mentioned . Firstly it will be highly vulnerable to Electronic Warfare and Jamming. Secondly, there will be a time lag between missile reception and transmission which will not be good from a control system perspective. Thirdly there is no need for such a complex system if the radar in your fighter is good enough. The logic is you should rather improve the radar in the fighter than link up with AWACs and satellites.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 18 Dec 2009 20:14

Mayuresh,
rcs does not depend upon range. It is simply the measure of how detectable an object is on radar. If an object's rcs is x metre square, it will remain so no matter its distance from radar.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 18 Dec 2009 20:23

Gaur wrote:Mayuresh,
rcs does not depend upon range. It is simply the measure of how detectable an object is on radar. If an object's rcs is x metre square, it will remain so no matter its distance from radar.

Yes sir, and just to add your description: The only thing that varies with distance is the % of the x meter square that is detectabale/observable by radar. As in, at close range the 100% of rcs is detectable, at 100 km a smaller % would be detectable (that was just a hypothetical example for illustrative purposes) but algorithsm and electronics can compensate for that. At the max range of the radar difference between the compensated/amplified return signal and background noise is indiscernable (sensitivity and accuracy of algorithms limits radar distance).

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 18 Dec 2009 22:29

Raveen wrote:
Gaur wrote:Mayuresh,
rcs does not depend upon range. It is simply the measure of how detectable an object is on radar. If an object's rcs is x metre square, it will remain so no matter its distance from radar.
Yes sir, and just to add your description: The only thing that varies with distance is the % of the x meter square that is detectabale/observable by radar. As in, at close range the 100% of rcs is detectable, at 100 km a smaller % would be detectable (that was just a hypothetical example for illustrative purposes) but algorithsm and electronics can compensate for that. At the max range of the radar difference between the compensated/amplified return signal and background noise is indiscernable (sensitivity and accuracy of algorithms limits radar distance).

Team,
Probably my RCS example was not the best. My bad. But as Raveen said, Lets say, I have a flanker(A) at 100km, a fulcrum(B) at 60km and an LCA(C) at 30km. Let us assume that A, B anc C have the same return signal strength. How does the radar make out that the guy at 100km is a flanker, the one at 60 is a fulcrum and the one at 30 is an LCA? Since RCS is a hypothetical concept (the RCS of an object is the cross-sectional area of a perfectly reflecting sphere that would produce the same strength reflection as would the object in question), all that our radar knows at this point is that these three objects have the same return strength and their distances (as mentioned above)

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 18 Dec 2009 22:48

^^
I do not think there is any way to know that through radar. After all, the radar reflectiveness of an a/c would greatly differ depending upon its orientation wrt to radar. So any one a/c can reflect radar waves differently depending upon its orientation wrt the observer.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Dec 2009 11:52

x posting

Sharpening America's Light Forces for Rapid Reaction Missions
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1196/

I am posting this for those who feel India should have an expeditionary force.

Open the chapters in PDF and have a great time!

This gives an insight!

Possible in the Indian context?

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 19 Dec 2009 18:27

Team,

I have a follow-up question, sorry for the naiviette...

Let us assume that our aircraft in the previous example is being painted by a radar and the RWR starts beeping. Can it now distinguish between the following three states:
1. It is being painted by a radar
2. It has a missile lock by the radar
3. A missile has been fired and evasive action needs to be taken (release chaff / dive / etc.)

Also, if I cannot distinguish between infra-red heat seeking missile and a radar guided one, I need to release both chaff and flares. Do modern fighters have this distinguishing capability?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 19 Dec 2009 19:03

^^
Reading the following will clear your doubts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_lock-on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_Approach_Warning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_warning_receiver

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 21 Dec 2009 04:12

confused talib here....i was reading about the Army's organisation and so if the field formations are corps, divisions, battalions etc, how do the regiments fit in?
does each corps have separate regiments attached to it, or the individual battalions of these regiments spread out over all the corps?

also, i think the Army needs to raise another South Indian regiment...

Infosys Regiment....*runs*

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Dec 2009 09:34

nithish wrote:confused talib here....i was reading about the Army's organisation and so if the field formations are corps, divisions, battalions etc, how do the regiments fit in?
does each corps have separate regiments attached to it, or the individual battalions of these regiments spread out over all the corps?

also, i think the Army needs to raise another South Indian regiment...

Infosys Regiment....*runs*

Battalions make up a Regiment.

Some Regiments are Community based, some are Area based and some are All India based for recruitment.

Regiments, composed of battalions (which can be in any field formation), is basically to build an identity and hence greater camaraderie and oneness. Officers and men from one Regiment, under normal circumstances, cannot be transferred to another Regiment. Also, officers and men of one battalion are generally not transferred to another battalion.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 21 Dec 2009 09:35

Could someone please tell me How to aquire the Vayu ARCHIVES.Also i have provided personal details at the website.Wanted to know if i have to send a cheque or wait for them to reply back and then send the cheque.OT but can someone please help??

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 22 Dec 2009 01:01

RayC wrote:[
Battalions make up a Regiment.

Some Regiments are Community based, some are Area based and some are All India based for recruitment.

Regiments, composed of battalions (which can be in any field formation), is basically to build an identity and hence greater camaraderie and oneness. Officers and men from one Regiment, under normal circumstances, cannot be transferred to another Regiment. Also, officers and men of one battalion are generally not transferred to another battalion.

Unless ofcourse in the case of non-infantry regiments (arty, armoured, engineer) -where the regiments are actually batallion level units. multiple regiments make up one regiment

hope its confusing enough

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 22 Dec 2009 03:04

Gaur wrote:^^
Reading the following will clear your doubts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_lock-on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_Approach_Warning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_warning_receiver

Thanks, read through them all.

I am wondering if there is a way to fool the RWR into believing that a missile has been fired. The way for the RWR to find out that a missile has been fired is the change in mode of the radar. If we can programme the radar to transmit in that mode, it may be possible to fool the RWR on a bandit. If that is possible (and I think it should not be too difficult to code it into the radar s/w), technically, we could force the incoming bandits to drop their stores and dive for cover without firing a missile and then go after them with a vengence!

Just my thoughts, we may already be doing this as a part of standard tactics

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 22 Dec 2009 07:45

Anyone in Chennai who lives close to Meenambakam. I have a request for a volunteer who can make a short trip to photograph a gravestone with the CWGC Cemetary. Sound me out at jaganpvs / gmail / com

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 22 Dec 2009 07:57

Jagan You have a mail

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 22 Dec 2009 12:41

Hi Guys

I have been a follower of BRF for last 1 and half year or so.
I registered just recently.
I am a professional working with a MNC.
Must say that this is an exteremely democratic and informative forum.
I would like to contirbute to various discussions in future in a constructive manner as is expected of BRFites.

Thanks

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 22 Dec 2009 12:48

Human wrote:Hi Guys

I have been a follower of BRF for last 1 and half year or so.
I registered just recently.
I am a professional working with a MNC.
Must say that this is an exteremely democratic and informative forum.
I would like to contirbute to various discussions in future in a constructive manner as is expected of BRFites.

Thanks

I have 1 question for starters,,,
Why is our weapons program so transparent??i.e., why the GOI doesnt build our defence forces in a secretive manner the way Chinese does..

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 22 Dec 2009 20:06

I have 1 question for starters,,,
Why is our weapons program so transparent??i.e., why the GOI doesnt build our defence forces in a secretive manner the way Chinese does..

Simple, because we are a democracy.

Yippee my first post

koti · Post by **koti** » 22 Dec 2009 21:41

Sagar G wrote:
I have 1 question for starters,,,
Why is our weapons program so transparent??i.e., why the GOI doesnt build our defence forces in a secretive manner the way Chinese does..
Simple, because we are a democracy.

Yippee my first post

Not only that, Chinese model also has room for high level corruption and in a political system like India it might more problematic.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Dec 2009 21:59

Human wrote:......

Username changed to Ashish J to comply with forum guidelines.
Sagar and Ashish, welcome to BR.
Rahul.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 22 Dec 2009 23:17

Hi Ashish...Welcome to BR

Well, how do you know that we don't use the same tactics? Rumours spread from time to time that we have tested this missile disguised as that missile.
Did anybody know that Pokharan was going to happen? After all you can't conduct nuclear test overnight. It is not like that you woke up one day & decide to do some testing. Preperations must have been going on for months & yet nobody had any idea.

If govt. decides to go secret then what would happen to defence enthusiasts like us.

BR would become like any other Paki or Chinese forum with only speculations, no worthwhile discussions at all.

I personally believe that yes some secrecy is necessary but transparency is also must. Who knows a successful media campaign can really expose corrupt people. Like in the case of recent Agni failure. Because it came out in public, the scientists will be more careful this time.

Thanks

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 23 Dec 2009 07:45

President Patil to board INS Viraat today

The President is expected to witness Sukhoi Su-30 and Sea Harrier fighter jets take off from the ship during her three hour stay.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 Dec 2009 07:53

^^
DDM is just getting better and better, aren't they?

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 23 Dec 2009 10:17

Dmurphy wrote:President Patil to board INS Viraat today
The President is expected to witness Sukhoi Su-30 and Sea Harrier fighter jets take off from the ship during her three hour stay.

It seems its time to start courses on defence journalism from IIMs or so ,to avoid such blunders from repeating..

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 23 Dec 2009 10:31

No need for that. Simply, send a letter to the journalists to visit BR regularly, before reporting. Especially, the "Tracking Errors in defence reporting" thread. When they see their reports being laughed upon and bashed left n right, they'll learn things soon!

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 23 Dec 2009 16:15

WHAM Strategy in Kashmir

Guys,, I read a bit about the IA’s WHAM (Winning Hearts and Mind) Strategy in
Kashmir. I was wondering whether the same is really working ?? I mean aren’t common Kashmiris scared of the IA?? I met a Kashmiri Trader a few days back.. He visits us once in a year or so.. While having a chat , the general impression I got is as follows:
1) The guy wanted to do just business.
2) He didn’t want to give an impression that there is any violence at all in Srinagar,(Whenever we asked him about the violence, he said problem exist only at border)
3) He never wanted to have a discussion on the issue.
4) I got an impression that, he was just a common guy, wanting to earn bread for his family, trying to steer away from getting involved in the issue, scared to say anything, and most important of all,, Seemed to favor neither Pakistan or INDIA.

I mean, we have governed the Kashmir region for the last 60 years or so, still we haven’t been able to convince our own people that they are indeed ‘our people’.

I get a feeling that those immoral Pakis are winning there propaganda campaign against us while our GOI does nothing.
We cant defeat the terrorists until we convince the Kashmiris.
One or two human rights violations here and there, and all the hard work done by our soldiers goes for a bust. There is so much anger there. How are we countering them(Pakis)

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 23 Dec 2009 18:20

Can anyone identify the badges on the commando's left pocket and the one above it. The pic is from Maj Sandeep Unnikrishnan's funeral

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 23 Dec 2009 22:10

^^ sorry for the late reply...many thanks, RayC and Jagan sirs

just another qsn; so how are officers graduating from the military academies allocated regiments? do they choose or are they sent to a regiment depending on their background (for example, would a Sikh officer be sent to a Sikh regiment)?

on an unrelated note, can anyone recommend any e-books about the Indian Army, the history, the regiments etc?
thanks a lot

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 23 Dec 2009 22:47

nithish wrote:^
on an unrelated note, can anyone recommend any e-books about the Indian Army, the history, the regiments etc?
thanks a lot

If you are in india, try and find a book by late Lt Col Gautam Sharma. He had done a great book covering all regiments and arms. Its "The Indian Army - A Reference Manual". Best part of it is it is very affordable at Rs 250

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Dec 2009 23:12

nithish wrote:just another qsn; so how are officers graduating from the military academies allocated regiments? do they choose or are they sent to a regiment depending on their background (for example, would a Sikh officer be sent to a Sikh regiment)?

no, it's somewhat like counseling for engn seats. the would be officers are offered a choice.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 24 Dec 2009 18:07

nithish wrote:^^ sorry for the late reply...many thanks, RayC and Jagan sirs

just another qsn; so how are officers graduating from the military academies allocated regiments? do they choose or are they sent to a regiment depending on their background (for example, would a Sikh officer be sent to a Sikh regiment)?

on an unrelated note, can anyone recommend any e-books about the Indian Army, the history, the regiments etc?
thanks a lot

Before being commissioned, one gives his option for his choice of Arms or Service.

The top 10 in the order of merit gets their choice of Arms or Service.

Then there are blocks and the allocation is done by aptitude and vacancies. This ensures an equitable distribution of the good, bad and ugly!

All done by MS Branch.

There is no embargo on being of the same community to join a Regt that has one's community.

Parental affiliation (father in the Regt or was in the Regt) gets the merit it deserves and they normally get the Regt of their parents/ grandparents.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 25 Dec 2009 23:15

Hello, does anyone know the differences in strategic roles the different fighter planes play, or perhaps point me to a resource? I'm completely at a loss to what the difference in role between planes like the Tejas/MCA/MRCA/F-35/other foreign planes is.

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Dec 2009 23:54

Fwiw I have been told usually commissioned officers avoid joining the regiment from their own region i.e. a Dogra usually might not join the 'Dogra regiment' same with the Madras sappers or even Gurkha regiment ; they say this arrangement prevents nepotism or any potential build up of region based polarization within the regiment. I think the reason is the regiments recruit the soldiers/jawans primarily from the region where they are based or headquartered so having a commissioned officer from a different region makes sense.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 26 Dec 2009 06:10

Ashish J wrote:
It seems its time to start courses on defence journalism from IIMs or so ,to avoid such blunders from repeating..

newbie question - what is the blunder???

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 26 Dec 2009 07:09

^^
Su-30 are not stationed at INS VIRAAT. In fact, it is impossible to operate this weight class of aircraft from INS VIRAAT.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 26 Dec 2009 07:31

Carl_T wrote:Hello, does anyone know the differences in strategic roles the different fighter planes play, or perhaps point me to a resource? I'm completely at a loss to what the difference in role between planes like the Tejas/MCA/MRCA/F-35/other foreign planes is.

Tried wikipedia? It is enough to answer these questions.

Anyways, in short:
Tejas: Lightweight Multirole fighter. Replacement for Mig-21 which are primarily for air defence (however, they were later upgraded to be able to perform limited ground attack). Tejas, being a multirole fighter, can also perform ground attack roles.
Read the links given on first page of LCA thread.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 58&start=0

MCA: It is just a proposal. However, the proposal is to develop a 5th gen (stealth) Multirole aircraft with emphasis on good ground attack capabilities (which basically constitutes of good range and large payload).

MRCA: Is not an aircraft. It consists of 5 different aircrafts competing to be ordered by IAF. Wikipedia page on MRCA competition is pretty extensive on this. There is also a comparision table for different competitors. So it would help to visit it.

F-35: 5th gen (stealth) multirole fighter in development. Made as a cheaper alternative for F-22.

Wikipedia has articles on all these aircrafts. After reading them, if you have furthur queries, then you can post them here.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Dec 2009 11:18

Carl_T wrote:Hello, does anyone know the differences in strategic roles the different fighter planes play, or perhaps point me to a resource? I'm completely at a loss to what the difference in role between planes like the Tejas/MCA/MRCA/F-35/other foreign planes is.

I think Gaur has already posted a reply. May I point out that the phrase "strategic role" is a loaded one because it all depends on what you define as a strategy. But let me leave out the semantics.

I am not trying to mock but let me just say:

Aircraft may be classified in many ways - military, civil, transport, sport, trainer, jet powered, turboprop powered, piston engined, helicopters, etc

Among "military" aircraft one tends to have military transports, fighters, bombers, fighter-bombers (or multirole aircraft), reconnaissance ("recce") aircraft, tankers, trainers and AEW or AWACS aircraft.

All the aircraft you have named are specifically jet engined, supersonic multirole combat aircraft that can shoot down other planes in one role, attack ground targets in another role and also double up as recce aircraft in some instances.