MRCA News and Discussion

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 28 Dec 2009 00:09

MadhuG wrote:
Kartik wrote:the LCA also has self-diagnostic systems..this is from Harry who was on BRF and Keypubs earlier, so I believe it to be true.
Harry passed away in May 2007. Cause is heart attack.

Link to the news item

I was his classmate in college. He did have an amazing knowledge about military technology as ascertained from his interaction with a defense scientist at the IIT-Madras tech seminar on the LCA in 2004.

One of his articles: http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/printer_521.shtml

He forbid me from revealing his true identity online. But now that he has passed away, I feel everyone needs to know the real person.

RIP Harish Balaji K.

PS: Sorry for the off topic post.

Shocked

Not by the news but by the age. I had felt that there was some trouble since Harry simply dropped off from the 3 fora he used to frequent - BR, Keypubs, and ACIG. His inputs were always interesting and informative, I remember a memorable to and fro between him and N (JC) @ Acig years ago on the fulcrum/vajra - excellent stuff!

23 years! What a prodigy, a loss indeed. RIP Harry, God bless.

CM.

not really. his real identity and online one was always separate. I don't know of any that has actually met him.

Well, the BR acronyms page has him listed as Master Spy for good reason then.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Dec 2009 00:32

MadhuG wrote:
Kartik wrote:the LCA also has self-diagnostic systems..this is from Harry who was on BRF and Keypubs earlier, so I believe it to be true.
Harry passed away in May 2007. Cause is heart attack.

Link to the news item

I was his classmate in college. He did have an amazing knowledge about military technology as ascertained from his interaction with a defense scientist at the IIT-Madras tech seminar on the LCA in 2004.

One of his articles: http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/printer_521.shtml

He forbid me from revealing his true identity online. But now that he has passed away, I feel everyone needs to know the real person.

RIP Harish Balaji K.

PS: Sorry for the off topic post.

thank you Madhu for letting us know..I used to wonder how an uber-jingo like him could vanish off the radar for so long, but then I assumed that marriage and other responsibilities took all his time..I'm very saddened to hear that he actually passed away..and even more so when I read that he was only 23. May God give peace to his soul. On this forum, as on Keypubs, he will always be quoted for his vast knowledge on Indian defence matters. Could you convey to his parents that there is an online fanbase of his who express their condolences for their loss (albeit very late).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Dec 2009 00:33

yes, the real person was a mystery to most if not all BRFites.

Could you convey to his parents that there is an online fanbase of his who express their condolences for their loss (albeit very late).

second that, if possible.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 28 Dec 2009 13:30

Harry is died at of heart attack 23 ?. I do not know what to say. I read his posts here in BR which are quite informative. What can one say for such a tragic thing? Must be very painfull for his parents and family.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 28 Dec 2009 16:04

Gaur wrote:
Klaus wrote:If ppl on the forum have been reading the news about the Queen Elizabeth class carriers probably being sold to IN in not so distant future, the naval version of the Eurofighter Typhoon would be readily compatible with such a carrier, would'nt it? The IN could impact the MRCA in this manner in the sense that the naval version and the AF version would be more suited to forward land based naval assets
What naval version? At least do a basic reading before posting anything you like.

ADDED LATER: If you are referring to the proposed naval version of Typhoon, it is just a paper plane. There are no orders for it. At present, "no" naval Typhoon exists.

http://www.bharatrakshak.com/NEWS/newsr ... wsid=12129

You are right with regard to the naval version, I was just talking in terms of long term strategy alignment. However, the Typhoon could be modified for naval operations as per the above article.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Dec 2009 18:34

Of the contenders for the MMRCA contest,the Rafale and F-18SH are the only two western aircraft along with Russia's MIG-29K,who have a naval variant.Developing a new naval Typhoon is never going to happen as the British RN have plumped for the JSF and the Germans aren't going to build carriers,while the Italians and Spanish are quite happy wiht their Harriers for now with the STOVL JSF to follow.The only countries which will try to operate fixed-wing conventional take-off naval aircraft aboard carriers will be the US,Russia,China and India.Budding carrier navies like Japan's JSF are quietly building STOVL carriers in the guise of amphibious flat tops (given their WW2 heritage),as are the SoKos.The Chinese will never get a western naval strike aircraft ,lust after the SU-33 while the Russians are playing hard to get,worried about Chinese naval expansion themselves and prefer to sell their best wares to India.The Chinese will try and develop their own naval version of the Flanker stealing tech along the way,while we similarly try and develop in time our own LCA naval.The fears about inordinate delays is making us cast our net far and wide.with the IN cleverly keeping an eye on the MMRCA deal to see if it can gain anything out of it! It is perhaps a subtle wink,nudge,nudge to the French (with the F-18SH sensing the mood too)telling them that if they play their cards well,they would gain further with an order from the IN.The MMRCA deal is growing more complex by the day.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 28 Dec 2009 20:39

MMRCA flight test evaluation by April: IAF chief

We will complete flight test evaluation for these aircraft by April...the report would then be sent to the government,"

the Air Chief told PTI.

The evaluation report would be discussed by the Cabinet Committee on Security, after which the process of awarding contract would be initiated,"

he said.

Ankit

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 28 Dec 2009 23:14

Ankit Desai wrote:MMRCA flight test evaluation by April: IAF chief

The best part of the article:

"The aircraft would be in service by 2013," he added.

And the IAF must not only forward the 'report' but also its recommendation with due reasons for it.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 28 Dec 2009 23:27

Dmurphy wrote:The best part of the article:
"The aircraft would be in service by 2013," he added.

this line...Just killed the chances for Mig-35 to be selected...

!

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 28 Dec 2009 23:32

sumshyam wrote:The best part of the article:
"The aircraft would be in service by 2013," he added.
this line...Just killed the chances for Mig-35 to be selected... !

why is that? Not that I want Mig35 to win MRCA contract but just curious

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 28 Dec 2009 23:37

Dmurphy wrote:The best part of the article:
"The aircraft would be in service by 2013,"

Absolutely. Finally things seem to be going on course

.

bodhi · Post by **bodhi** » 28 Dec 2009 23:40

Katare wrote:
why is that? Not that I want Mig35 to win MRCA contract but just curious

because Migs wont be delivered till 2014 atleast.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 28 Dec 2009 23:41

Katare wrote: why is that? Not that I want Mig35 to win MRCA contract but just curious

because...
Russia aims to start making MiG-35 fighters for India in 2013

I also would like Mig - 35 winning the competition...but...!

Anyhow...I am perhaps re-posting the link...If so...I am sorry...!

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 29 Dec 2009 00:05

I still don't understand what is the hold up?

They are basically saying that India would take longer to decide but they can produce much earlier.
I think People are getting lost in the translation of russian to english. If you find the original quote by the said official, which was posted here, it can be read wrong if you are not careful. He basically said that RAdar would be ready but production would not start untill 2013 because India would take at least that long to decide/sign a contract

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 29 Dec 2009 00:24

Katare wrote:RAdar would be ready but production would not start untill 2013 because India would take at least that long to decide/sign a contract

hmmmmmmmm.........aisa kya...?

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 29 Dec 2009 09:59

Perhaps even Russians are not sure that MIG 35 will be selected . This is from ARM TASS . Please bear with poor translation.

Feodors :: 126 multi-purpose fighters do not exclude an opportunity of the announcement at once several winners of the tender for delivery of India

Moscow, on December, 28th, (áÓ¼ß-TASS). On results of the tender for delivery of India 126 average multi-purpose fighters in which Russia participates with МиГ-35, some winners can be chosen. Such point of view was stated journalists by chairman of board of Open Society " Incorporated aviabuilding corporation " (ОАК) Alexey Fedorov.
" There were cases when in the complex tender, with a lot of participants and volume of prospective purchases, some winners " got out at once, - has told Feodors.
It has refused to predict, when competition can come to the end. " It very complex, I do not undertake to predict date of its end, and the Indian party, I think cannot while it to make ", - have explained Feodors.
As he said, in the middle of current year the second stage of the tender where opportunities of its participants were shown in flight all has come to the end. МиГ-35 has received flatter estimations of the customer.
As chapter ОАК, as the positive moment for the Russian party considers, capable positively to affect results of the tender, there can be a beginning of deliveries of ship fighters МиГ-29К to India.
" As in МиГ-35 many design and technological decisions fulfilled on ship fighters МиГ-29 are incorporated, it can become the positive factor. The customer has an opportunity to touch, look and estimate as all works ", - has told Feodors.

Link

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 29 Dec 2009 12:03

Rest in Peace Harry...

I'll miss you and your fabulous drawings of IAF aircraft.

It is sad that Harry has passed at such a young age. It happened two years ago in 2007 and we're just finding out? Hmmmm....
Maybe the sad news was discussed back then but many of us just missed it.

Masaru · Post by **Masaru** » 30 Dec 2009 04:10

Lockheed to sell 24 F-16 jet fighters to Egypt in 3.2 billion dollar deal

The possible deal could be worth $3.2 billion, including associated weapons, base construction, support equipment and other hardware and services.

The F-16 part of it was worth $1.6 billion, he said.

Last week, Lockheed was awarded an $841.8 million contract to continue building 24 new F-16C/D Block 52 fighters for Morocco, the 25th nation to buy the F-16, the world's most widely flown fighter.

More price points for analysis.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 30 Dec 2009 04:38

Seems like the tally is not 24 new jets but 20 new jets.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Egypt clinched a deal with the U.S government last week to buy 20 advanced Lockheed Martin Corp F-16C/D fighter aircraft valued at $1.6 billion, the U.S. Defense Department said Tuesday.

The Egyptian embassy did not immediately return a call seeking comment on the reason for buying 20 F-16s rather than the 24 Cairo originally had requested.

Comes out to be $75 - 80 millions a bird.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 30 Dec 2009 10:32

First of all my condolences to B Harry. I am a long time lurker on here and always enjoyed his posts. 23 is far far too young of an age to go. May you rest in peace and may your parents have solace in your passing. Now my do paise or 2 cents. I would not buy anything from the Swedes. On principal. These clowns just sold a balance beam early warning SAAB to Pukistan and had a induction ceremony with their ambassador to welcome the next Indian air force target. No offense but as they say in America, middle finger to the Swedes. If I were the Govt of India, things should be made amply clear that selling to India's direct enemies is not a zero sum game and that you will suffer. Economically, strategically and on the global stage. Simple as that.

bodhi · Post by **bodhi** » 30 Dec 2009 10:43

^ ^ I second that.

But that would mean a middle finger to Unkil as well! We have to stick to non lethal chindi (money wise) platforms to take care of the strategic aspect and to keep unkil happy.

Which means only EF doesnt get the finger (if I am not wrong)...and Russkies if the RD-93 thru Chinkis are to be overlooked.

amol.p · Post by **amol.p** » 30 Dec 2009 10:51

sumshyam wrote:Pentagon Contract Announcement

Lockheed Martin Corp., Fort Worth, Texas, is being awarded an $841,877,905 contract to provide for 24 F-16 Block 52 aircraft, advanced counter measure system electronic warfare system, along with associated support equipment, alternate mission equipment and support elements for the government of Morocco.

At this time, $672,782,163 has been obligated.
So....Block 52 costs 35.078 Million $ each...!

The figure of 35.078 Million $ seems wrong.

US aerospace giant Lockheed Martin is to sell 24 F-16 jet fighters to Egypt in a 3.2 billion dollar deal....{so its more tha 100 million $ per plane

)

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 393814.cms

chandel_alok · Post by **chandel_alok** » 30 Dec 2009 10:55

Anant wrote:If I were the Govt of India, things should be made amply clear that selling to India's direct enemies is not a zero sum game and that you will suffer. Economically, strategically and on the global stage. Simple as that.

Hmm. not to be cynical but Unkil: F-16 C/D w/ 100s amraam-C5, M-109s as gifts; France: Agosta-90B; Germany: Potential U-214; Russia: Su-30MKK, S-300PMU, Sovermennys, , , ..... not sure who will we be left with. Maybe only Israel (discounting Lavi, maybe?). Just a thought.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 30 Dec 2009 10:59

Dear Bodhi,

The time to leverage the US is now. The American economy is a basketcase and the defense market for American planes has significantly truncated. Imagine how many people will be jobless in Texas and Missouri if India takes a pass on the F-16 and F-18. The US understands bargaining only from a position of power. I live and work in the US and trust me, if you treat people with kindness and respect, it makes no iota of a difference. Only when people perceive you as a direct competitor or business threat do they come back to the negotiating table. Look at China. Obama went to China and licked their boots. The British are still licking Chinese boot even though they executed a mentally ill Brit. The Indians (of which I am one and damn proud of it) have to quit worrying about what the US thinks. What choice do they have? An alliance with the Chinese? Ain't happening. AN alliance with the Russians? Ain't happening. Their allies are the same but their threat perception is different. They need something to combat the Chinese. Namely India. If I was the Indian ambassador, at the next cocktail party, I'd say something like, hey it's funny that those SAAB folks sold a balance beam to Pukistan. Say, aren't you involved in the components of said aircraft. And then say, you know, I came here on an Airbus and man was that ride smoother than that Boeing. There are ways to do this. We need to do it now.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 30 Dec 2009 11:05

Chandel,

Your point is well taken and not to take the thread off topic but there are degrees of screwing. On that spectrum, the Russians have and continue to save our bacon. The biggest culprits are the US and the "enlightened" Europeans who view Pakistan through rose colored glasses and are busy giving Nobel Peace(s) Prizes.

alok_c · Post by **alok_c** » 30 Dec 2009 11:14

No doubt Anant. I agree with what you are saying here. Wish we could select the planes purely on technical merit based on IAFs requirement and the finances available.

bodhi · Post by **bodhi** » 30 Dec 2009 11:29

Anant wrote:
The time to leverage the US is now.

Agreed...but at what cost...we will be discussing the same thing again which has probably been done a hunderd times before here.

F-16 is an outdated platform...will be replaced soon by F-35. I dont think the assembly lines will be open for the next 40 yrs...similar to the mirage situation we have today. Upgrades will be massively expensive.

F-18 i believe will be chosen for the IN tender...but an interest for F-35 has been shown too...dont know how feasible that is. so unkil will be happy

Right now...my preferance is towards the EF...good potential for upgrades in the future. Bear in mind...i am a noob..i dont know shit about planes...but i am paying 12 grand a month as taxes and i dont want to pay for a plane which can be surpassed by another ac in the near future.

PS: Not only the US but everywhere in the western world is the same...kindness and compassion dont work...its all business in the end.

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 30 Dec 2009 15:46

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/ ... index_html

Cover Story: What a swede ride!

2009/12/30
We are at the 10th Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition 2009 (Lima ‘09) and the folks at Saab have given me a couple of minutes of stick time in their Gripen simulator.
....

Central to the Gripen’s warfighting capability is the CDL39 datalink. The system allows the exchange of data, information and even images between Gripens, as well as other units on the ground and in the air. New missions or updates can also be uploaded via the datalink. The system works by sending a “burst” of encrypted information over a secure digital network that is virtually jam-proof.

“There’s no need for voice communications,” says Lewis-Olsson.

...

Klute allows me a moment to celebrate before setting up the next fight — a BVR engagement.

I look at the radar picture on my right multi-function display (MFD) and it shows six bogeys coming in from the west. A smaller screen above it shows the azimuth and elevation of the inbound aircraft.

Using the cursor on the throttle grip, I designate four targets and assign them according to threat priority. The other two bogeys, I hand over to my two wingmen. All this is done without voice communications via secure datalink. The bad guys have no idea that we’ve locked them up and are ready to shoot.

I push the throttle to full afterburner and climb up to 15,240 metres, expanding my missile envelope. The six bogeys continue heading for us. As the first four targets enter my kill zone, I pop off four AIM-120C Amraams in rapid succession. As they track their assigned targets, I peel off to the right and drop down to 6,096 metres. My radar picture tells me that both my wingmen have fired and that the two bad guys are unloading and getting out of Dodge. Seconds later, my radar tells me that I’ve got four good kills.

....

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Dec 2009 21:40

Anant wrote:Dear Bodhi,

The time to leverage the US is now. The American economy is a basketcase and the defense market for American planes has significantly truncated. Imagine how many people will be jobless in Texas and Missouri if India takes a pass on the F-16 and F-18. The US understands bargaining only from a position of power. I live and work in the US and trust me, if you treat people with kindness and respect, it makes no iota of a difference. Only when people perceive you as a direct competitor or business threat do they come back to the negotiating table. Look at China. Obama went to China and licked their boots. The British are still licking Chinese boot even though they executed a mentally ill Brit. The Indians (of which I am one and damn proud of it) have to quit worrying about what the US thinks. What choice do they have? An alliance with the Chinese? Ain't happening. AN alliance with the Russians? Ain't happening. Their allies are the same but their threat perception is different. They need something to combat the Chinese. Namely India. If I was the Indian ambassador, at the next cocktail party, I'd say something like, hey it's funny that those SAAB folks sold a balance beam to Pukistan. Say, aren't you involved in the components of said aircraft. And then say, you know, I came here on an Airbus and man was that ride smoother than that Boeing. There are ways to do this. We need to do it now.

Someone missed MMS's game plan?

Someone missed MMS's game plan.

Masaru · Post by **Masaru** » 31 Dec 2009 01:10

Japan, U.S. mull F-35 project
Cross post from India - Japan thread
Excerpts

Tokyo and Washington are contemplating Japanese participation in a multinational project to develop the F-35 stealth fighter, sources in both governments said Tuesday.

The move is intended to clear the way for Japan to adopt the F-35 as its mainstay fighter jet, because countries not participating in the project won't be allowed to acquire it at an early date.

Japan has also studied other planes, such as the F/A-18 and F-15FX produced by the U.S., and the Eurofighter, produced by a consortium of European manufacturers.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 31 Dec 2009 05:21

The ongoing discussion in the Ind. Mil. Aviation thread about the LCH optronics being located on the nose brings an interesting point to my mind which I believe I had mentioned some time before cant exactly remember though...

The location of the IRST sensor for the Super Hornet located on the centreline fuel tank....this IMHO is going to be an issue for the SH bcoz I believe the sensor will not be able to see in the upper hemisphere...in most other jets equipped with IRST the sensor is locate on the nose which gives it much better all round visibility...while the one in the SH will allow it to see sideways and down (depending on the extent of movement of the sensor ofcourse) it will not be able to see above as the jets forward body will not let it....this may also become an issue in a dogfight as well if in wvr and trying to lock on with an IRST in a turning fight with a jet that has equal or better turning characteristics than the SH the IRST may not be able to lock on as it may not be able to see the bandit...this may be resolved to some extent with a gimballed sensor though it would be interesting to see how much would that improve the FOV of the sensor and I think there will exist blind spots still...JMT

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Dec 2009 05:43

I feel that sensors are evolving faster than they can be placed on an air craft - some as an after thought.

Then with sensors becoming smaller than ever before they will be placed all over in the future air craft.

My feel is that even though the MRCA is important we need to check out the FGFA. The rest will fall into place in due time.

negi · Post by **negi** » 31 Dec 2009 06:09

Andy the AN/ASQ-228 ATFLIR on board the F-18 is primarily is a target designator for A2G ops pretty much in the league of Sniper and Litening these pods as is do not facilitate detection and tracking of airborne threats hence their position under the fuselage should not be an issue.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 31 Dec 2009 06:13

Aaaah

didnt quite know that should have done MYOR before jumping on ze bangwagon...although I do remember some USN hoohaa about the SH will be equipped with a centreline IRST...eitherway good to know..thanks.

negi · Post by **negi** » 31 Dec 2009 06:28

Well the IRST for new Ultra Hornet or whatever they call it is indeed gonna be integrated with the center line fuel tank however I wonder if it should matter in terms of sensor FOV as its detection is 'PASSIVE' in nature and the wavelength in question is in IR range.

kit · Post by **kit** » 31 Dec 2009 12:48

Masaru wrote:Japan, U.S. mull F-35 project
Cross post from India - Japan thread
Excerpts
Tokyo and Washington are contemplating Japanese participation in a multinational project to develop the F-35 stealth fighter, sources in both governments said Tuesday.

The move is intended to clear the way for Japan to adopt the F-35 as its mainstay fighter jet, because countries not participating in the project won't be allowed to acquire it at an early date.

Japan has also studied other planes, such as the F/A-18 and F-15FX produced by the U.S., and the Eurofighter, produced by a consortium of European manufacturers.

Would it be a good idea to get included ? PAKFA considered .

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 31 Dec 2009 13:29

^^
I am not a huge fan of F-35 and I feel that US and other western powers would be in huge disadvantage if F-35 would be the backbone of their respective AFs.
But, that aside, what has F-35 anything to do with MRCA?

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 31 Dec 2009 14:22

Anant wrote:Chandel,

Your point is well taken and not to take the thread off topic but there are degrees of screwing. On that spectrum, the Russians have and continue to save our bacon. The biggest culprits are the US and the "enlightened" Europeans who view Pakistan through rose colored glasses and are busy giving Nobel Peace(s) Prizes.

On that topic; We cannot 'punish' anyone. If we throw out the Swedes (Gripen) for selling the Erieye to the Pakis, we would just be picking on the weakest. We cannot dictate France or Germany who they should sell weapons to. The only thing that will change that is self dependency & a more active role in international politics. As far as the US is concerned, they need us more than we do, the solah & the attrah should be thrown out of the competition to let the US know that India is not enjoying their double game.

MarcH · Post by **MarcH** » 01 Jan 2010 21:25

I think you guys have a strange view on some things. E.g. the US or Sweden delivering weapons for Pakistan is a sacriledge, while there is no word about Russians arming China. Without the Russians Chinese pilots would still sit in antiquated MiG-19 and -21 clones.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Jan 2010 21:39

MarcH wrote:I think you guys have a strange view on some things. E.g. the US or Sweden delivering weapons for Pakistan is a sacriledge, while there is no word about Russians arming China. Without the Russians Chinese pilots would still sit in antiquated MiG-19 and -21 clones.

No, you got it wrong. THe outrage is about the free gifts that US gives pakistan, not what it sells. If it sells something and pakistan pays it in hard cash without any subsidy/freebies, then it will just hasten the demise of pakistan.