National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

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enqyoob
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by enqyoob »

Rahul Mehta:

My comment was only to explain why asking some ppl to draft pro-active steps such as legislation, is a waste of time. The suggestion to draft legislation and put it up on a BLOG is an excellent one - it forces some thought and perhaps brings out new ideas and real issues.

In fact the best example I know of someone trying to do this is the blog of Mohterma Marvi Memon of Pakistan. I say this in all seriousness. She posts issues, she posts what she tried to do about each, and what she thinks should be done. Very coherent, articulate and exemplary. Ppl here should visit and learn from that, considering the environment in which she has to operate.

Of course, few of her constituents can read English or browse Blogs, but that's not her fault.
******************************

Regarding a National Agenda, my take is that it should look at leap-frogging over a lot of hassles - and see how to get there. Once ppl see the opportunities rising around them for real progress, there will be enough ppl who are to busy doing constructive stuff and making money, to have any patience for the yada-yada-yadists, and sooner of later, those politicians will be run out. Provided that in the meantime, national security and the rule of law do not collapse.

Most pressing today is Energy Independence. I think India should "swing for the boundary" and go after a war-phooting move to replace imported fossil fuels with local/renewable solutions, and quickly move towards renewables/ H2/electricity. This ONE move can completely change India's position in the world, and transform the nation at every level, and make most of the foreign and domestic policy "zero-sum-games" irrelevant.

5 Years to Energy Independence. It's possible today.

I feel as strongly about this as the famous RM used to about his NBJ etc. campaign. 8)
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

I think we are veering off from the basic issue – National Agenda 2010 -2050.

The common man has a wish list. He cannot implement it. The common man may have a wish list, but even that wish list is lost when the voting is done. As is reported in the media, apparently caste, community, freebies thrown one’s way rules supreme and the Nation and the strong wish list that the common man professes is lost for future grousing and bellyaching. Therefore, like it or not, the common man is not serious about his wish list and is only interested in self and why not?

How many literate and illiterate read Election Manifesto. They are Grimms Fairy Tales anyway!

Take a look at the Jharkand Elections. Where has the strong views of the common man been reflected? Now, watch the immoral horse trading!

Thus, it is those at the helm of power and helm of advice are the ones who decide the National Agenda. They are not elitist unless one feels being educated and capable of thinking is an elastic parameter and is elitist. I presume all members of the BRF would be elitist – at least in the eyes of the tiller!

That having been said, what should be the National Agenda for 2010 -2050?

To discuss National Agenda for the Future, one cannot be uni-focussed. One has to Lookch at issue holistically. I have seen posts that advocated most vehemently that India should capture POK, go through Afghanistan and join up with CAR!! Ideal.

Have such good people seen the terrain that has to be surmounted, the opposition that they will face, and the international pressure (which has repeatedly stopped India in the tracks every time there was a war)? What are the costs? Has India that type of money? Let us say India has. What thereafter the war and joining India to CAR to the other aspects that would make India’s population’s ‘shining’, like education, poverty elimination, irrigation, agriculture et al?

What is more important? Joining India with CAR or uplifting our people?

I could go on but I will leave it at that. If India could capture POK and develop a highway to CAR, do you think that posters who advocate should not have been PMs and the PMs that we have had are not quite up to the mark?

The national vision will start by articulating development aims, restating them more sharply against milestones. The plan is also set to consider how development can be made more sustainable.

Sun Tzu wisely said, “Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril.

I am aware that there are those who are well versed in history, who will veer all this to history and scintillate as the pole star!

The issue still remains - not the past, but the future and we must show we also have vision!

One can scintillate in the past, but must use it to show some vision for the future!
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

Mod writes:
Brihaspati wrote:

So instead of trying to derail the thread, please do try to join in the discussions on climate change and energy policy, land and land use, economics as well as geopolitical power projection ..... trying to concentrate on in this thread.


Excellent idea, I agree. Please do so
Last edited by enqyoob on 25 Dec 2009 06:14, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: OT deleted
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RoyG »

*More government sponsored cultural and foreign exchange programs with border countries, US, S Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and South East Asia.

*Setting up institutes abroad which foster better understanding of the dharmic world view and history of the subcontinent. I feel like India has so much to offer the world in terms of political and social theory, architecture, sciences, mathematics, medicine, yoga, etc. We shouldn't shy away from tapping into the indigenous and competing in the global free market of ideas.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by enqyoob »

Carl_T: I see that you are a "new" user, but state that you are an "old" browsor. You should know better than to drag in religion, whether as Certificates of Goodness to postors or for any other reason. I am deleting the OT stuff above, please stick to the topic of the thread.


General comment: Enough time spent deleting OT posts. Please stick to topic of thread.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Rahul Mehta »

RayC,

About election funding.

Its true that you need perhaps crores of rupees to win election. Not because voters need to be paid, but reaching a voter is at least Rs 20/voter -- communication does costs. Plus you need activists who can spare time. But to lose a election, you need only Rs 10000 And trust me, even if you contest to lose, you can force the winners to change their directions bit by bit. The winnable candidates and party sartaps do keep eyes and ears open and watch every loser carefully, and try to understand why even 1000 people voted for them. They do not want to miss the emerging trends, if there are any. Every vote they lose matters to them, even if margin was comfortable.

Elections are important part of National Agenda, for they are the only means we non-leaders have for the time being. Another is mass-movement, but mass-movement get boost from election contesting. I would strongly urge you and everyone here to contest election, blow away your Rs 10000 (or more). That first step will play important role.
RayC wrote:1. The common man has a wish list. He cannot implement it. The common man may have a wish list, but even that wish list is lost when the voting is done.

2. As is reported in the media, apparently caste, community, freebies thrown one’s way rules supreme and the Nation and the strong wish list that the common man professes is lost for future grousing and bellyaching. Therefore, like it or not, the common man is not serious about his wish list and is only interested in self and why not?

3. Take a look at the Jharkand Elections. Where has the strong views of the common man been reflected? Now, watch the immoral horse trading! Thus, it is those at the helm of power and helm of advice are the ones who decide the National Agenda. They are not elitist unless one feels being educated and capable of thinking is an elastic parameter and is elitist. I presume all members of the BRF would be elitist – at least in the eyes of the tiller!
1. The wishlist disappears due to lack of procedures by which commons can expel those who go against wishlist

2. Mediamen are liars. Voters vote very rationally, and want to minimize their losses as all winnable choices are bad, worse or worst. So they pick least bad of the winnables and no wonder choices are bad.

3. Thats because voters have no way to expel the horse traders or horses. The solution to this horse-trading for CM is to enact procedure by which we citizens can DIRECTLY elect CM and expel him if the need be. And the procedure to enact RTR-CM (Right to Recall CM) needs only one Govt Order - no legislation in State/Center and no constitutional amendment is needed.

So one of the items we should add in National Agenda is the list of Govt Orders needed to fix the horse trading and similar such problems
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Carl_T »

I think our first priority is energy. We need to focus on bringing cheap energy such as nuclear power to our shores.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Carl_T »

RoyG wrote:*More government sponsored cultural and foreign exchange programs with border countries, US, S Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and South East Asia.

*Setting up institutes abroad which foster better understanding of the dharmic world view and history of the subcontinent. I feel like India has so much to offer the world in terms of political and social theory, architecture, sciences, mathematics, medicine, yoga, etc. We shouldn't shy away from tapping into the indigenous and competing in the global free market of ideas.

What is a dharmic world view??? What does it have to do with sciences and mathematics?


Personally I think we should develop our scientific infrastructure and look to contribute more and more to the research done. IMO we need to keep a separation between teaching institutes and research institutes, and increase the size of grants given to them. Find the most gifted young scholars and offer them high salaries to do research at domestic institutes.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

What is the importance of separation of teaching and research in higher education and higher level research? Such a separation typically is automatic in private enterprise based research which is geared right from the start towards profits. However basic research is quite successful in teaching institutions too. There are very good practical reasons as to why they are typically also kept together in many institutions. Research helps education to keep up with new trends, and topics or needs. While, some of the tedencies to monopolize and hold back further development in an area for commercial reasons are countered by constant urge to innovate or find new and "outrageous" methods of doing things in academia.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Jarita »

Some excellent tweets from Sagarika Ghose - surprise


Chatted with rahul gandhi at jyotiraditya's dinner. He think s Mayawati's finished, I think its a mistake to underestimate her..
12:55 PM Dec 23rd from web

Sometimes the BJP reminds me of Boyle's Law: the greater the external pressure, the greater the volume of hot air!
12:53 PM Dec 23rd from web

@anurag_s imagine if every MP becomes a hereditary plutocrat, rich, inheriting his seat by birth, contemptuous of people. 545 rajas

@autumnshade jagan reddy, stalin, creeping north India-isation..Pakistan-isation..
10:12 PM Dec 20th from web in reply to autumnshade

A social scientist once told me Congress is essentially a feudal and elitist movement, Rahul too seems a trifle condescending
10:03 PM Dec 20th from web

Cities are a metaphor of our democracy: the pedestrian marginalised, the cyclist threatened with death, only black tinted pajeros survive

The educated middle class is the backbone of India, butthis class is finding it difficult to survive amid system collapse
10:01 PM Dec 20th from web

Is India becoming Pakistan? The country reduced to a 'playground' of the elite, dissent seen as 'anti national', mid class sold on america
10:00 PM Dec 20th from web

{Mod note: I thought about this post, and decided that these are valid points to help guide a discussion on National Agenda, and that the comments are general, not about any particular party etc. concerns about Members and Mantris as hereditary Rajas is valid, certainly at the State levels. HOWEVER, for anyone tempted to pick up on the politics here, don't. Thx.}
Last edited by enqyoob on 26 Dec 2009 06:17, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: caution to postors tempted to quote from here
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Carl_T »

brihaspati wrote:What is the importance of separation of teaching and research in higher education and higher level research? Such a separation typically is automatic in private enterprise based research which is geared right from the start towards profits. However basic research is quite successful in teaching institutions too. There are very good practical reasons as to why they are typically also kept together in many institutions. Research helps education to keep up with new trends, and topics or needs. While, some of the tedencies to monopolize and hold back further development in an area for commercial reasons are countered by constant urge to innovate or find new and "outrageous" methods of doing things in academia.
There is nothing "new" or "outrageous" about this idea, it is well implemented in many places.

Separation doesn't mean that there should be no relation to each other, however they are two distinct streams. While separation can be accomplished by different institutions, separation can be accomplished within one institution by hiring a faculty focused on teaching and having another faculty focused on research, although there can be some overlap.


The separation of teaching and research is important because both fields require a distinct set of skills. For example, great economists may not make great teachers, and great teachers may not make great economists. For example, in theoretical fields, chances are best given to young, emerging researchers, whom it's a bad idea to burden with teaching duties (unless they wish to be).
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Jarita »

One more item that is crucial in the next 30-50 years is space exploration. Space exploration is akin to the discovery of the Americas and Australia.
Due to resource imperative, India cannot afford to be left behind. For all the rona dhona of the leftists abt poverty etc, it is important we invest in Changrayaan type ventures. We need to be there in asteroid belt and need to innovate on resource extraction and human habitation.
This is not stuff of science fiction but reality
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

Carl_T,
please note that, I had used "outrageous" in the context of potentially radical ideas thrown up by academics from time to time. Such ideas may appear "outrageous" to established wisdom or business practices, but may also help in radically transforming technology etc. This was not about the whole issue of separation/non-separation being "outrageous".
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

Since education has popped into the discussion, what are the suggestions for an "agenda" for education? There are plenty of issues. GOI has officially declared/proposed/moved towards universal education at least at the starting level. This at long last is a good initiative.

But we may still have a significant representation in the corridors of power from certain "elite" institutions. If these institutions are not integrated into an uniform educational system, we may have a mismatch between expectations and realities. So the vast majority will perhaps be still in a "voting" mode, whereas people from the special-institutions are the ones being voted for or selected for decision making. Such institutions could also be maintaining a disconnect from post-colonial India, by imprinting colonial imagery and memes which the graduates may retain with fondmess long after they pass out.

Here is a reportage I came across about Founder's Day Celebrations in an english-medium school at Kolkata.
http://www.ongardens.com/lamarts/cal2003.htm
Some obesrvations strike immediately, like the holding on to names of colonial masters in places of honour, some with special links to deliberate attempts at destroying what they thought was Indian civilization:
Behind them came boys carrying the house flags Charnock, Hastings, Macaulay and Martin.
The connections to corridors of power and the rashtra are also symbolically present.
Then, unlike in our times, an army bugler from the 11th Regiment of the Gorkha Rifle, who was standing as still in front of the dais as was the bust of our Founder placed at the entrance of the Hall, blew the Retreat and followed it with the Rouse. I think this was organised by the Principal through the good office of Lt Gen John Mukherjee who is the Chief of Staff of HQ, Eastern Command. He too was supposed to attend but has been called to Delhi on a last minute assignment.
Here is how the imagery and memes taught at school retain their influence.
The Canticle, 'Let Us Now Praise Famous Men' was sung by the Boys and Girls and it brought back memories of our schooldays. Did we sing better in our days or was the acoustics to be blamed or maybe I am just biased like any old man suffering from the 'the good old days' syndrome. Notwithstanding, it did give a warm glow to the heart and being swamped by memories of my days a warm feel good glow enveloped me. I wonder if someone could enlighten me as to what we used to sing apart from this hymn, where the girls sang the same line in between and raced through it in a most cute way to end the line as we finished. Obviously, for those who are reading this and wondering what my gender would be, it was and still is male; though it was young and merry then but slightly jaded though still young now.

The Lords Prayer was followed by the First Lesson, the First Anthem {I Will Give You Glory O God My King} and the Second Lesson. It was a salute to India's secularist strength to observe that Old Boys of non Christian denominations not only sang the Lord's Prayer with gusto but they had not forgotten in spite of years of having past out of school, the musical intonations that powered the Prayer. This was followed by the School Prayer.
[...]
The Bishop gave his sermon thereafter and providentially it was short since the environment had become stuffy with the overflow of humanity that was attending and were still coming in.
[...]
The Blessing, by the Bishop of Calcutta, was preceded by the Hymn 'All people that on earth do dwell' and then commenced Part 2 of the Programme.
It is interesting to see that the author notes that the school is not
one of the many' school is proved by the fact that we are the only School that has a Founder's Day and a Dinner for all as also by the fact that ex LMC boys and girls still jet in from far corners to Calcutta for just one day to saviour[savour?] the honour and pride of attending the Founder's Day.

We are a proud school and we should take pride in our heritage. The old has to give way to the new, but Traditions should go on if indeed we are to maintain our 'exclusivity' - the 'exclusivity' so ironically mentioned by the Chief Guest, be in Dress, punctuality, discipline or proceedings as laid down by traditions handed over by our predecessors.
Maj. Gen. Claude Martin's history is colourful and an interesting twist to the course of European colonization - how initially a French soldier he ended up "collaborating" (in his own words) with the British (and taking up service under them) in the defeat of Tipu Sultan. The educational institution he left money for (he similarly left money for such in Lucknow and Lyon) in his will was however used by the authorities to actually disallow "native"s and only allowed European Christians. This was of course out of the money he himself acknowledged was made from India. "Natives" were only allowed in 1935. Perhaps this was not part of the "tradition" of "exclusivity" that the author of that article had in mind.

I appreciate the sentiments and straightforward identification with the "school ethos" by the author, and he has written in good faith. But I think the reportage thows up in sharp outline how such institutions affect the lifelong attitudes and thought processes in perhaps many who are placed in rashtra level decision making roles.

Should there be an uniform policy formulated not only on the syllabus, but also on behaviour, code of conduct, structure, form and imagery used in our schools? So that it is a totality of education we are looking at, and not merely at producing skills and ensuring certain world-views?
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by archan »

Discussion regarding moderation will be moved to the feedback thread. Hopefully they will get their due attention there. This thread should return on topic.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by SwamyG »

Brihaspati ji: As far as the "agenda" for education; I would call for greater "Indianisation" of the education. For example; it might be time to delink nursery rhymes from the British Colonial days and the kids are taught folklore poems. Even in English we have plenty of Indian English poems.

Here is something I really like to happen. Instead of studying history in terms of Current/Modern; Medieval and Ancient. I think History ought to be taught in terms of:
1) Local / State
2) Regional
3) National
4) Global

This will spur lots of research and books on local & regional history. These books would be written in Hindi, English & the regional language. Usually a school picks a medium of instruction so these books should get students what they want in their language of choice. In the current mode, if a tamilian ends up in Assam;

This will help students appreciate the local & regional history across the time. I think some curriculum in State boards would have more focus on region. I studied in CBSE syllabus. So instead of leaving the local/regional to the State board; we could have it more uniform agenda across the country.

Just my 2 cents or ramblings. Maybe my facts are outdated and things have changed in desh.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by munna »

Mandatory Registration of all Written Complaints as FIRs. Excellent move by Home Ministry it is a great step in uplifting the law and order mechanism of our country. The delay in registering of FIRs was a potent political and bureaucratic weapon that was used to oppress the weaker parties in various cases. Kudos!
Former chief of bureau of police research and development Kiran Bedi said "governments and police often show an artificial control of crime. This is also a source of corruption and crime. The home ministry will have to work in tandem with states and judiciary or this will remain on paper." She added, "The country has finally woken up and realized the need to register all crimes."
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by ramana »

We have been brought up to think the large population is a huge drag on our progress. We need to plan to see how we can turn it into a huge advantage. Economics wise if we can improve their per captia earning power and thus their consuming power, it will be worth more than many trading nations.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by enqyoob »

And that is why I argue for massive effort to go into developing micro renewable power systems, because in such an architecture, Wealth is proportional to (population)^N, N>1, whereas in macro approaches, it is N< -1.

Think about that. Gandhiji had figured it out long ago, but the lesson is especially relevant today as Smart Grids and home hydrogen filling stations start becoming reality.

It is really the chance of a millennium to leap-frog generations of technological wastelands.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

Population is a resource definitely if it is productive. Which means each individual produces more than he/she consumes over his/her lifetime. To ensure this, production of energy from decentralized sources is a way forward, but not sufficient.

For India, look at land/soil productivity sectorwise for agriculture. This is sort of stagnating and peaking in many of the key food crops. It is not just about water or fertilizers. It is about the long term productivity of the land and how much it can really produce of a particular tpe of crop.

Probably almost everything else can be increased in proportion to energy input - but not food. You can process more potable water by using more energy. You can increase health cover by using more energy. You can even manage waste to a certain extent by using more energy (there are serious problems and the cost-efficiency curve does not turn out to be linear). But then there is also a limit to overall usable water supply increase by increasing energy use. If overall rainfall decreases, it may very well be impossible to compensate for that by using more energy to desalinate sea-water.

Food and water supply are two main components for basic prosperity, that may not increase linearly with energy input.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by RayC »

Brihaspati,

Good of you to as usual promote your agenda with a sleight of hand. Education? And the piece on Founders Day?

I must congratulate you for getting the piece on the Founders Day.

You sure research selectively to push your Agenda.

Why leave out the stuff about the last Bishop with dal on his cassock and what a hopeless chap he was?

Maj Gen Claude Martin a French soldier did not collaborate with the British. He joined the British EIC on the condition that he would not have to fight the French. Do read!

Since you are not from this School, you would not realise that they also were equally eulogistic about Kalidasa and other Hindu sages and their saying.

Again, these Schools were not to disallow natives from education. There were many non Christians in the School way back from 1930s. So don't talk sagaciously without facts. It can be taken as libel!

Here is his last will and testament:
Martin was a charitable person and philanthropist by heart as is reflected in the following excerpt from his last will and testament:

"I give and bequeath the sum of one hundred and fifty thousand rupees for to be placed at Interest in the most secure manner possible in the East India Company or Government papers bearing interest and that interest to be employed for the poor first having divided this Interest in three portions or parts one - for the relief of the poor of Lucknow of any religion - for the poor of Calcutta - for the relief of the Poor of Chandernaggur".
Claude Martin
So, it was to keep the natives out? Why fib?

Selective grabs for propaganda is good to prove a point but bad in morals.

But then, this is all OT.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

RayC wrote
Brihaspati,
Good of you to as usual promote your agenda with a sleight of hand. Education? And the piece on Founders Day?

What exactly is my agenda according to you?

Since you are so conscious of OT items, you should realize that the piece on "Bishop" would be OT.


As for allowing Non-European, non-Christian natives only after 1935 (I had sepecifically mentioned the British authorities and not Martin as the one who restricted entry)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Martin
Ironically, Claud Martin had willed part of his fortune for the education of children in India without specific mention to race and creed. However, at the turn of the Nineteenth Century the attitude of British rulers in India changed to a Victorian and imperialist outlook, resulting in the formation of the school in Calcutta, after 30 years of litigation as meant for European Christians only, though permitting Catholics, Armenian Christians and those of other denominations. It was only in 1935 that native Indians were permitted to join the school.
As for "collaboration" I also specifically mentioned that this was according to his own words :
Chandan Mitra in his book Constant Glory quotes from Martin:
"I have always refused to give up the French nationality, but of which France do I belong? That of Louis XV, where I have only known misery before embarking on the L'Orient ? That of philosophers, of terror bathing in blood, or that of Bonaparte whose eastern dream has just been dissipated, after leaving Tipu Sahib alone against the English? I have collaborated for his defeat and then after he lost I have been rewarded by some gold sprinkling on my uniform-a vain plaything for my vanity. By my persevarance and hard work I have accumulated a fortune from this country which is my second motherland. I have not cheated the people who have passively succumbed to the yoke of corrupt men."
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Carl_T »

enqyoob wrote:And that is why I argue for massive effort to go into developing micro renewable power systems, because in such an architecture, Wealth is proportional to (population)^N, N>1, whereas in macro approaches, it is N< -1.

Think about that. Gandhiji had figured it out long ago, but the lesson is especially relevant today as Smart Grids and home hydrogen filling stations start becoming reality.

It is really the chance of a millennium to leap-frog generations of technological wastelands.
What are some microrenewable power systems? Because the wind and solar power ones I'm familiar with are not feasible.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

Home hydrogen filling kits could still be expensive and prone to accidents and explosions. For some time to come perhaps, even a roadside fillings tations hould be good enough. But thats for private transport. If public transport within cities or towns converted to hydrogen that would be great.

Microgeneration could consist of both microhydel where there is sufficient gradient or flow, even if small in volume. Or perhaps for most areas in the arid interior - micro wind turbines. These could cost much less if really built up from scratch locally. Solar photovoltaics is still immensely capital intensive - but if the dye-based solars come in could become feasible. There is work to be done in energy production from waste, and conversion of biomass left as aresult of agro activity into domestic fuel or conversion to electricty. But at thec urrent levels of tech, it appears - the most efficient ones - is a combination of large-scale solar, micro to mid - macro wind power, and micro-mid hydel, with a countrywide emphasis on conversion of waste and biomass into useable energy.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by vera_k »

The mention of biomass energy reminded me of this project. They claim this tech can reduce carbon dioxide emissions while providing decentralised generation.

Clean energy fuels prosperity in Karnataka

BERI
brihaspati
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

As a teenager, I saw how burnt biomass (charcoal type -reduced oxygen reduction to carbon) was mixed in with the soil after harvest. I had experiemented with this on small patches. They appeared to perform much better in productivity. Recently saw a program comparing different modes of waste management. It seems that the same method was used by the tribes in Amazon basin, and this later on turned into an amazing "black gold" of a soil - much higher in productivity comapred to non-charcoal soil. There is a lot of research that is going on to study the microstructure and microenvirons of such soils. They probably provide electrochemically active sites where chemical biological reactions proceeed at a faster rate or fosters ahealthy bacterial and microorganism colony.

An Oz team I think has taken up this into a feasible engineering project. This can not only treat waste from human and other agricultural products (using the volatiles to sustain the process and generate power on the side) but producing the carbonaceous material ready to be put back into the soil. That holds promise of not only managing waste, generate energy but also sequester extra carbon into the soil.

I use the residue from my wood pellet boiler into my vegetable and crop patches. They give excellent results. This is indigenous technology for us Indians. It could actually restore soil health and convert less productive or poor quality soil into better ones. Local small scale industries could take it up.
Carl_T
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Carl_T »

brihaspati wrote:As a teenager, I saw how burnt biomass (charcoal type -reduced oxygen reduction to carbon) was mixed in with the soil after harvest. I had experiemented with this on small patches. They appeared to perform much better in productivity. Recently saw a program comparing different modes of waste management. It seems that the same method was used by the tribes in Amazon basin, and this later on turned into an amazing "black gold" of a soil - much higher in productivity comapred to non-charcoal soil. There is a lot of research that is going on to study the microstructure and microenvirons of such soils. They probably provide electrochemically active sites where chemical biological reactions proceeed at a faster rate or fosters ahealthy bacterial and microorganism colony.

An Oz team I think has taken up this into a feasible engineering project. This can not only treat waste from human and other agricultural products (using the volatiles to sustain the process and generate power on the side) but producing the carbonaceous material ready to be put back into the soil. That holds promise of not only managing waste, generate energy but also sequester extra carbon into the soil.

I use the residue from my wood pellet boiler into my vegetable and crop patches. They give excellent results. This is indigenous technology for us Indians. It could actually restore soil health and convert less productive or poor quality soil into better ones. Local small scale industries could take it up.
Then the installation costs have to be taken into account, I remember my great aunt used to have a "gobar gas" system, but it required huge tanks of "gobar", making it possible for only larger farmers.
brihaspati
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

I am not an engineer! I just suggested this as something to explore for Indian engineers themselves. We sometimes have a tendency to import technology from outside, instead of adapting and developing from desh. I know that this particular thing I mentioned used to be done at a low-tech level by whole villages or groups of families together. It may stil be possible to set up a small plant with indigenous engineering/technological knowhow that collects material from several villages and serves them in return. If the tech is developed indigenously and competitively, it could cost a fraction compared to "importing" or licensing the technology from outside.

Another crucial aspect you allude to, is the lack of availability or access to capital to those who need it. Microcredit is supposed to be taking off in India.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Carl_T »

brihaspati wrote:I am not an engineer! I just suggested this as something to explore for Indian engineers themselves. We sometimes have a tendency to import technology from outside, instead of adapting and developing from desh. I know that this particular thing I mentioned used to be done at a low-tech level by whole villages or groups of families together. It may stil be possible to set up a small plant with indigenous engineering/technological knowhow that collects material from several villages and serves them in return. If the tech is developed indigenously and competitively, it could cost a fraction compared to "importing" or licensing the technology from outside.

Another crucial aspect you allude to, is the lack of availability or access to capital to those who need it. Microcredit is supposed to be taking off in India.

I'm not an engineer either, but considering the widespread poverty among farmers and the large numbers of farmers, I think these things like microgeneration etc. are a tad unrealistic. That's all.
brihaspati
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

We will not know about achievable costs, unless we build them from the scratch entirely indigenously on our own designs.
Rahul Mehta
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Rahul Mehta »

enqyoob wrote:Most pressing today is Energy Independence. I think India should "swing for the boundary" and go after a war-phooting move to replace imported fossil fuels with local/renewable solutions, and quickly move towards renewables/ H2/electricity. This ONE move can completely change India's position in the world, and transform the nation at every level, and make most of the foreign and domestic policy "zero-sum-games" irrelevant. 5 Years to Energy Independence. It's possible today.
As of now, there is no alternative to petrol.

So while can wish of "renewable" power sources, the wise men would also focus on expanding India to oil rich areas.
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Carl_T »

Rahul Mehta wrote:
enqyoob wrote:Most pressing today is Energy Independence. I think India should "swing for the boundary" and go after a war-phooting move to replace imported fossil fuels with local/renewable solutions, and quickly move towards renewables/ H2/electricity. This ONE move can completely change India's position in the world, and transform the nation at every level, and make most of the foreign and domestic policy "zero-sum-games" irrelevant. 5 Years to Energy Independence. It's possible today.
As of now, there is no alternative to petrol.

So while can wish of "renewable" power sources, the wise men would also focus on expanding India to oil rich areas.
I think a potential alternativeto petroleum is electric motors powered by nuclear electricity for the time being.
Prem
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Prem »

Energy Independence can really propel India into different league. Deficit in this field is huge draw back on our strategic vision. I heard that Natural Gas is distributed pretty evenly on the Continents of Planet Earth and found in close clusters , if its true this is one field in which GOI should have efforts on war footing to find and extract this source of energy. Also soon our maritime boundaries will be touching the Gulf area and it will provide good oppertunity to exploit this resource. Personally i wish if we can sneak and tap into the huge Qatari/Iranian gas field (52TCM)in Gulf .
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Jarita »

Since we don't have a thread for social issues can we address them here. Specifically, issues related to
- Children
Education, health, child labor, prevention of child abuse
- Women
Similar
ldev
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by ldev »

Swaminathan Aiyar's predictions for 2020

Some of his predictions FWIW.
India will overtake China as the fastest-growing economy in the world. China will start ageing and suffering from a declining workforce, and will be forced to revalue its currency. So its growth will decelerate, just as Japan decelerated in the 1990s after looking unstoppable in the 1980s...

India will become the largest English-speaking nation in the world, overtaking the US. So, the global publishing industry will shift in a big way to India.......

India will also discover enormous deposits of shale gas in its vast shale formations running through the Gangetic plain, Assam, Rajasthan and Gujarat. New technology has made the extraction of shale gas economic, so India will become a major gas producer and exporter. Meanwhile, Iran's mullahs will be overthrown, and a new democratic regime will usher in rapid economic growth that creates a shortage of gas in Iran by 2020. So, the Iran-India pipeline will be recast, but in reverse form: India will now export gas to Iran.......

More and more regions of India will demand separate statehood. By 2020, India will have 50 states instead of the current 28. The new states will not exactly be small. With 50 states and a population of almost 1.5 billion, India will average 30 million people per state.....

China, alarmed at India's rise, will raise tensions along the Himalayan border. China will threaten to divert the waters of the Brahmaputra from Tibet to water-scarce northern China. India will threaten to bomb any such project. The issue will go to the Security Council.....

Islamic fundamentalists will take over in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The US will withdraw from the region, leaving India to bear the brunt of consequences.....
archan
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by archan »

Jarita wrote:Since we don't have a thread for social issues can we address them here. Specifically, issues related to
- Children
Education, health, child labor, prevention of child abuse
- Women
Similar
At one time BRF would not have allowed such discussions. We have a GDF for issues that are non-military, economic or strategic. Please use that. There are existing threads on Indian Education system and Health. You can have one on women's issues and children/child labor issue in GDF.
I cannot assure the longevity of threads like this one. :P
Jarita
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Jarita »

^^^^ I am ref to womens and childrens issues as pertain to rights etc.
I am referring to key metrics that impact national productivity, health which should very much be on the national agenda
- Infant mortality - A driver for massive population
- Maternal Health & Mortality - Driver for population health
- Maternal Literacy - Driver for everything
etc, etc, etc
Improving these will go a long, long, long way in driving nation wide literacy and some measure of population control
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by archan »

Please start two threads in GDF for those. Would that be good enough?
Pranav
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by Pranav »

What should be the national agenda vis-a-vis reservations?

Here is the lates from the UPA govt:
'Minority' for 'Muslim' in BPL census?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 403818.cms
Subodh Ghildiyal, TNN 2 January 2010, 04:32am IST

NEW DELHI: The Centre is veering round to accepting the N C Saxena committee’s methodology for identifying below poverty line (BPL) families through a census but may go in for a crucial change — replace ‘‘Muslim’’ with ‘‘minority’’ for extra weightage on poverty index.

The Union rural development ministry is considering minorities as a whole, in place of only Muslims, who are to be given an extra point weightage in BPL identification. The ministry conducts a census to identify BPL families, which is now due this year.

Sources said a rethink on whether Muslims as a community should be retained as beneficiary of special points in BPL census started after a few states said it was not prudent. In their comments on the Saxena report, the states, reported to be mostly BJP-ruled ones, felt it would send out a wrong message.

Sources said the ministry is still to decide between ‘‘Muslim’’ and ‘‘minority’’ and a final view is to be taken on Saxena report’s methodology for the BPL census. The debate, however, seems interesting.

While Sachar commission and other surveys, from time to time, have identified a vast section of Muslims as poor, sources said it was suggested that use of the word ‘‘minority’’ would pre-empt any misgivings that one community was being given preference in poverty welfare. It would, while removing the possible grounds for social envy, also not disturb other minority communities who could feel let down.

Among the families to be surveyed, there is certain weightage to be given to social groups. While SCs/STs would get three points, Most Backward Castes (MBC) would be given two points. The Saxena report added that Muslims and OBCs be given one point each.

RD ministry feels the methodology suggested by Saxena panel for BPL census is otherwise strong, especially the method of ‘‘automatic inclusion and exclusion’’. The concept is seen as ‘‘fair and robust’’.

According to the concept, certain families would not be considered for BPL category at all. They include households which own double of a district’s average irrigated landholding or have a three-wheeled or four-wheeled motor vehicle or a mechanized farm equipment or have a member who is a government employee or have a private sector employee drawing above Rs 10,000 per month salary.

In contrast, the primitive tribal groups, households headed by single-women or a minor, families which have disabled persons as main bread-earners or the households of ‘‘mahadalits’’ would be automatically included, without a survey, in the BPL list.
So, in Kangress' India all poor people are equal but if you are poor and non-Hindu then you are more equal than the poor Hindus. Apparently the prime concern of the UPA government is equality of all minorities - one minority should not have grounds for feeling envious about other minorities. Proselytizers must be rubbing their hands in gleeful anticipation.

Isn't this like the Jaziya of the good old days? Jai Ho.
brihaspati
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Post by brihaspati »

Reservations in India are not simply justified on American style "affirmative action" but also some extra. These extras are justified based on extra items of claimed historical trauma and "injustice" - as in this article and its refs :
http://www.ashanet.org/uflorida/resourc ... _final.pdf.

It is not that difficult to see why there is such a huge battle over particular constructions of Indian history - because they need to be constructed to justify current and future use of national resources in favour of particular identities or subgroups while disfavouring others.

Actually if there has been such huge historical traumas and injustices, the political parties themselves can make a start by reserving key party posts for persons of "historically traumatized and sufferers of injustice" identities. If the arguments for reservations given as India-specific are valid then the Parliament should probably consider reservations at all levels of decision-making including the key positions of PM, President, as well as leaders of the houses, the judiciary and executive too! Moreover that argument should carry the force of Constitutional validity and extend into the organizational structure of recognized political parties.
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