MRCA News and Discussion

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 01 Jan 2010 22:02

***OT post deleted***

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 01 Jan 2010 22:23

[quote="GeorgeWelch"][/quote]
OT, for this thread. Please cross post in Pakistan thread if you want to take this further

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 01 Jan 2010 22:30

amol.p wrote:
The figure of 35.078 Million $ seems wrong.

US aerospace giant Lockheed Martin is to sell 24 F-16 jet fighters to Egypt in a 3.2 billion dollar deal....{so its more tha 100 million $ per plane )

hmmmmmm..........I also got got that news...now I was thinking about second hand sell....anyhow as I don't understand market...I am open to words

gurus...!

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 05 Jan 2010 13:56

According to Brazilian news their airforce has in its report ranked Gripen NG on top with Rafale on place 3.

However the airforce doesn't make the final decision...

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/bras ... 4679.shtml

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 05 Jan 2010 14:01

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/bus ... 98763.html

Upgraded Eurofighter offered to Indian Air Force

New Delhi, Jan 4 (IANS) European aerospace conglomerate EADS, the manufacturer of the Eurofighter Typhoon, has aggressively pushed for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets by offering the plane with a thrust vector upgrade that will considerably improve its operational capabilities.
The upgrade will pay for itself through life cycle cost reductions, an EADS statement said Monday.

Equipping the twin-engine Typhoon’s EJ200s with thrust vectoring nozzles (TVNs) could reduce fuel burn on a typical mission by up to 5 percent while increasing available thrust in supersonic cruise mode by up to 7 percent, the statement added.

Thrust vectoring would “improve agility, survivability, manoeuvrability and the aircraft’s ability to carry an asymmetric weapons load. It also reduces trim drag and

therefore, fuel consumption”, the statement pointed out.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is one of the six jets in contention for the IAF order, which could eventually rise to some 200 planes. The flight trials of the six aircraft are currently underway in India and are set to conclude later this month after which, another set of trials will be conducted in the country of manufacture.

Thereafter, the IAF will shortlist two or three aircraft before homing in on the final choice.

The first 18 aircraft will be bought in a flyaway condition and the remaining will be manufactured in India through the transfer of technology route by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Lockheed Martin F-16I Super Viper (both from the US), the French Rafale, the Swedish Gripen and the Russian MiG-35 are the other aircraft in the fray.

According to the EADS statement, the biggest operational benefit of thrust vectoring “is the speed that it gives in super cruise mode, because obviously the pilots are very keen on low observability at high speed”.

“Seven to eight percent more thrust in super cruise mode is quite a remarkable achievement and it adds to the operators’ delight. This would give the aircraft an edge over its rivals in combat as well as in getaway situations,” the statement added.

It also pointed out that while thrust vectoring promises operational advantages, “one has to look at life cycle costs as well. The importance is that the manufacturers should bring about both thrust increase and low life cycle costs”

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 05 Jan 2010 16:13

I think this means Boeing will fight with claws...

The manufacturer must find a new customer for the Super Hornet this year to keep the multirole fighter in production beyond 2011.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... aches.html

In the latest DTI, Phazatron says IAF radar requirement for mmrca is 130km.

http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416111587&o=ext

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jan 2010 16:51

So IAF MMRCA requirement is 130km for 3m2 or 5m2 target ?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 05 Jan 2010 19:43

RaviBg wrote:
MarcH wrote:I think you guys have a strange view on some things. E.g. the US or Sweden delivering weapons for Pakistan is a sacriledge, while there is no word about Russians arming China. Without the Russians Chinese pilots would still sit in antiquated MiG-19 and -21 clones.
No, you got it wrong. THe outrage is about the free gifts that US gives pakistan, not what it sells. If it sells something and pakistan pays it in hard cash without any subsidy/freebies, then it will just hasten the demise of pakistan.

I am sure the stuff to Pakistan from China is heavily subsidised. China must be paying market price to Russia and then making up by coping it !!

K

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 05 Jan 2010 21:26

Is there any other aircraft, apart from the Eurofighter offering Supercruise?

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 05 Jan 2010 23:53

@ShauryaT

Gripen IN.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Jan 2010 01:15

Anant wrote:Dear Bodhi,

The time to leverage the US is now. The American economy is a basketcase and the defense market for American planes has significantly truncated. Imagine how many people will be jobless in Texas and Missouri if India takes a pass on the F-16 and F-18.

I sincerely doubt if India can really bargain from a position of strength. $12 billion or even $15 billion isn't as crucial an order if one looks at the bigger picture. For example the outlay for the USAF's F-35 purchases is estimated at about $200 billion(total program costs are much higher). While they'd pull hard for an Indian order, I don't believe India can expect any major policy concessions in the wake of the recession.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jan 2010 02:11

Having given out a strong investment news for FGFA (pakfa) by MoD, I am sure Mig35 might be seen lesser of the top 3 list to be chosen.

Super Bug is sure hanging on the lines of SD politics.

EF2K and Rafale stands at top two ranks to me, followed by Gripen and SH. If either of Gripen and SH bungle their stance or get hit-wicket due to probability of lack of support for ToT or end user agreement linked to amrikahn systems, then there is a high chance the fourth spot in race for SH vs. Mig35.

EF2K, Rafale, Gripen, SH /Mig35.

The Europeans will take the top 3 spots, is my thoughts.

Sumair · Post by **Sumair** » 06 Jan 2010 04:22

Viv S wrote:
Anant wrote:Dear Bodhi,

The time to leverage the US is now. The American economy is a basketcase and the defense market for American planes has significantly truncated. Imagine how many people will be jobless in Texas and Missouri if India takes a pass on the F-16 and F-18.
I sincerely doubt if India can really bargain from a position of strength. $12 billion or even $15 billion isn't as crucial an order if one looks at the bigger picture. For example the outlay for the USAF's F-35 purchases is estimated at about $200 billion(total program costs are much higher). While they'd pull hard for an Indian order, I don't believe India can expect any major policy concessions in the wake of the recession.

If you know anything about the workings of US military industrial complex, then you would realize that the figure of 200 billion is the cost to the US tax payers and not the actual amount being spent on the aircraft development. A lot of it is going straight into the many pockets having nothing to do with the aircraft development. Thus 15-20 billion dollars might actually account for large chunk of development cost.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 06 Jan 2010 06:43

ShauryaT wrote:Is there any other aircraft, apart from the Eurofighter offering Supercruise?

Per some reports, even the F-16 IN can supercruise.

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Jan 2010 07:07

SaiK wrote:Having given out a strong investment news for FGFA (pakfa) by MoD, I am sure Mig35 might be seen lesser of the top 3 list to be chosen.

Super Bug is sure hanging on the lines of SD politics.

EF2K and Rafale stands at top two ranks to me, followed by Gripen and SH. If either of Gripen and SH bungle their stance or get hit-wicket due to probability of lack of support for ToT or end user agreement linked to amrikahn systems, then there is a high chance the fourth spot in race for SH vs. Mig35.

EF2K, Rafale, Gripen, SH /Mig35.

The Europeans will take the top 3 spots, is my thoughts.

Considering the political factor, I think F/A-18E/F will make the cut along with EuroFighter and Rafale for the second round. Eurofighter, in aircraft performance w/ supercruise and thrust vector, seems to be the top of the class. Rafale is designed as the best true multi-role, while F/A-18E/F is a combat proven design. Eurofighter and Rafale are more contemporary design compared to the F/A-18 design. All 3 of these have considerable political weight behind them.

It is likely MiG-35 won't make the cut because India just recently concluded big ticket items with Russia, such as the Gorshkov carrier deal with MiG-29Ks (and follow-on order), FGFA/PAK-FA, MTA, MKI and T-90S deals. Gripen, while it matches IAF's original requirements best and is of contemporary design, does not have the political weight that the top 3 spots demands. F-16IN will come in last, IMO.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Jan 2010 07:16

SaiK wrote:The Europeans will take the top 3 spots, is my thoughts.

We might never know how the aircraft that didn't make the cut fared.
This is too important a contract, being watched by all and sundry, the companies will have spoken to GoI to not release a 1,2,3,4,5 standing list in public.
The other thing we can be sure of is that there will be controversy when the final aircraft is selected. The others are going to play dirty for sure. There's no sportsman spirit in this bunch.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jan 2010 08:45

Thereafter, the IAF will shortlist two or three aircraft before homing in on the final choice.

We have the DDM to give us the hints as to this has happened.. and we can mark that timestamp. Rest could be Mr. Watson's work.

But as gagan ji says, its going to be a top secret 3 that MoD would never publish the selected. We have to go by chaiwalas and biskoot companies to tell us which of the a/cs were hovering where and when.

And which of those marketing girls, wearing which country map, firang hair color, photos meeting babooze, etc also could help in pointers as well.

PS:

Gagan saab, I thought your pakfa..err FGFA post was relevant to MRCA thread.

Gagan wrote:If India is going to get a 5th Gen fighter for ~ $ 100 million, how much do you think is India going to spend for the MRCA? Surely not ~$80 million per plane for a 4.5gen.
The lower priced ones which meet IAF's RFP have a lead.

But, we did read from DDM reports that price is not the only factor, and we could consider better platforms if it satisfies IAF needs. I am sure this includes non squeezing documents, agreements, sanctions, poodling, besides what went on the RFP.

bodhi · Post by **bodhi** » 06 Jan 2010 12:41

srai wrote:
Considering the political factor, I think F/A-18E/F will make the cut along with EuroFighter and Rafale for the second round.

It is likely MiG-35 won't make the cut because India just recently concluded big ticket items with Russia, such as the Gorshkov carrier deal with MiG-29Ks (and follow-on order), FGFA/PAK-FA, MTA, MKI and T-90S deals. Gripen, while it matches IAF's original requirements best and is of contemporary design, does not have the political weight that the top 3 spots demands. F-16IN will come in last, IMO.

SH might not be the final choice for the MRCA especially since the IN is planning to acquire newer carrier based ACs, I feel the SH will have a chance to win that.

And I am with you as well for Mig 35....we will again put too many eggs in Russia's basket.

EF is what i would prefer considering that it has to be in service for another 40 years and will have to face future gen ACs

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 06 Jan 2010 14:43

Which of the contenders can beat Su30 - MKK hands down and does not come with any strings attached ? That's MRCA winner.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jan 2010 16:56

durgesh wrote:Which of the contenders can beat Su30 - MKK hands down and does not come with any strings attached ? That's MRCA winner.

Eurofighter Typhoon , Even even beat the MKI

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 06 Jan 2010 16:56

mig 35 with thrust vectoring engine

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jan 2010 16:58

ShauryaT wrote:Is there any other aircraft, apart from the Eurofighter offering Supercruise?

The point is not about which can supercruise , but which can supercruise with useful load.

Typhoon has demonstrated SC with all A2A payload at ~ M1.3 and 2 Drop Tanks and A2A payload at ~ M1.2 , reports suggest it can do better.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Jan 2010 17:11

Sumair wrote: If you know anything about the workings of US military industrial complex, then you would realize that the figure of 200 billion is the cost to the US tax payers and not the actual amount being spent on the aircraft development. A lot of it is going straight into the many pockets having nothing to do with the aircraft development. Thus 15-20 billion dollars might actually account for large chunk of development cost.

Development cost are just short of $50 billion. $200 billion is what's been estimated for production.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Jan 2010 18:57

With the 5th-gen fighter soon to take to the skies-at least the Russian version,the IAF's capability wish list will only grow as has been seen with the delayed LCA.Given the fact that many nations will soon be operating the JSF in preference over the F-16s and F-18SHs,there is little point in the IAF opting for either of the two birds whose design history dates back from the '70s.The equation is a trade-off between capability and price,as the MRCA is and has been meant to be only a stop-gap measure to redress the IAF's rapidly dwindling numbers by inducting a jack-of-all trades, multi-role aircraft which can soldier on for a few decades without getting too obsolete.The vision for the IAF should be to develop indigenous capability,through first even a modest success with the LCA-replacing most MIG-21 sqds. asap,and through the 5th-gen fighter project with Russia,raising the bar to bleeding edge technology for the future.The 5th-gen fighter will when inducted should serve for at least 30 years,which will see it in service until 2045+.The massive advances in UCAV technology where smart,stealthy UCAVs are becoming proliferating the skies will see the 5th-gen fighter becoming perhaps the last major manned fighter project.Future force patterns will perhaps see flights of stealthy UCAVs shepherded by a few manned command aircraft .US black projects include new long range stealth bombers which will carry stand-off hypersonic missiles,able to carry out strikes on any part of the globe.It would be more prudent for the IAF to buy the most cost-effective,maintenaance freindly fighter of the lot,consreving our scarce resources and focussing our development efforts on the key aircraft which will give the IAF the edge in the regional air stakes,the 5th-gen fighter.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jan 2010 19:10

Shankar wrote:mig 35 with thrust vectoring engine

beating the mki!

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 06 Jan 2010 19:42

Austin wrote:
durgesh wrote:Which of the contenders can beat Su30 - MKK hands down and does not come with any strings attached ? That's MRCA winner.
Eurofighter Typhoon , Even even beat the MKI

... and even took a severe spanking 1-7 against rafales the other day. With virtually degraded AAMs on rafales. (sorry, re-post, but it seems the news wasn't noticed by everyone)

http://g2globalsolutions.com/review/?p=3114

for those of you who understand french
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.f ... irats.html

a little summary for the others:
The source of this journalist is Col. Fabrice Glandclaudron, CO of the Rafale squadron 1/7 Provence.

[*] Rafale's participation in ATLC was a "complete success". "We scored a homerun."
[*] Rafale "hammered" Typhoon during 4-on-4 exercises. He confirms the 4-0 and 3-1 scores.
[*] Rafale and F-22s fought 6 times, during which F-22s only got one kill.
[*] Rafale's availability was "exemplar".
[*] OSF allows visual identification at ranges of up to 30/40km.
[*] Regarding the 6 AASM + 3 MICA (simulated) firings in one minute, the ground targets were located at standoff ranges of 20-40km.

(indulged myself in picking up the translation here as it was accurate: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpo ... tcount=337)

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 06 Jan 2010 20:02

Brazil’s F-X2 Fighter Competition

....Jan 5/09: The Brazilian air force’s Comissao Coordenadora do Programa Aeronaves de Combate (FAB COPAC) announces that it has submitted its technical evaluation to the Brazilian government, based on aircraft performance, purchase and lifetime costs, and industrial benefits. The report was ratified by FAB command on December 18th, and media reports from the Folha de Sao Paulo claim that FAB’s executive summary had Saab’s Gripen as the preferred choice, with Boeing’s Super Hornet in 2nd place, and the Rafale last.

......In terms of the politicians’ most important benchmark, the FAB also reportedly gave Gripen NG the edge in industrial benefits, siding with Brazilian industry in believing that a project in development offers greater opportunities to expand Brazilian technologies and skills than a finished product like the Rafale

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Jan 2010 20:19

durgesh wrote:Which of the contenders can beat Su30 - MKK hands down and does not come with any strings attached ? That's MRCA winner.

MKK ?

Modernizirovannyi Kommercheskiy Kitayski = “Modernised Commercial for China” ? for IAF MRCA ?
really ?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 06 Jan 2010 20:31

Jean,
In keypubs, I recently saw some stunning pics of recent air exercise in Dubai which you are mentioning. Sadly, Rafale (my fav among MRCA contenders) was missing from the pics. I then googled but without success. Do you have any link which contains rafale pics taking part in that exercise?
Thanks.

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 06 Jan 2010 21:00

Saw them too (guess what I'm using as my current wallpaper set ?)

Unfortunately not, the boom operator who seems to have taken them was on a "boom type" tanker while rafale uses a probe so it seems we won't see pics of rafale flying over UAE...

If you're searching for Rafale pictures, there are some really nice on this topic: http://www.foxalpha.com/forums/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

It belongs to a french spotters forum. Some of them are AdA pilots so aside from classic spotters photos, you'll have nice static pics on runways and in hangars as well as in flight.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 06 Jan 2010 21:03

^^
Thanks.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Jan 2010 21:48

Jean_M wrote:
... and even took a severe spanking 1-7 against rafales the other day. With virtually degraded AAMs on rafales. (sorry, re-post, but it seems the news wasn't noticed by everyone)

http://g2globalsolutions.com/review/?p=3114

for those of you who understand french
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.f ... irats.html

a little summary for the others:
The source of this journalist is Col. Fabrice Glandclaudron, CO of the Rafale squadron 1/7 Provence.

[*] Rafale's participation in ATLC was a "complete success". "We scored a homerun."
[*] Rafale "hammered" Typhoon during 4-on-4 exercises. He confirms the 4-0 and 3-1 scores.
[*] Rafale and F-22s fought 6 times, during which F-22s only got one kill.
[*] Rafale's availability was "exemplar".
[*] OSF allows visual identification at ranges of up to 30/40km.
[*] Regarding the 6 AASM + 3 MICA (simulated) firings in one minute, the ground targets were located at standoff ranges of 20-40km.

(indulged myself in picking up the translation here as it was accurate: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpo ... tcount=337)

Not unless the F-22s were grounded. Its the world's foremost fighter aircraft in all respects by a very large margin. It would be stretching incredulity rather far to believe it came up second best against the Rafale.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 06 Jan 2010 22:12

Austin wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:Is there any other aircraft, apart from the Eurofighter offering Supercruise?
The point is not about which can supercruise , but which can supercruise with useful load.

Typhoon has demonstrated SC with all A2A payload at ~ M1.3 and 2 Drop Tanks and A2A payload at ~ M1.2 , reports suggest it can do better.

Thanks Austin, that would have been my follow on question as to which aircrafts can SC with enough load and at what speeds in SC mode. You have answered it for the Typhoon. Another question is any other aircraft that claim the low levels of frontal RCS that Typhoon claims?

TIA.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jan 2010 23:17

Jean_M wrote:... and even took a severe spanking 1-7 against rafales the other day. With virtually degraded AAMs on rafales. (sorry, re-post, but it seems the news wasn't noticed by everyone)

There is no way to confirm the authenticity of that news , it may be some fanboy claiming 1-7 or 1-100.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 07 Jan 2010 02:02

Philip wrote:there is little point in the IAF opting for either of the two birds whose design history dates back from the '70s

Why do you keep pretending the MiG-35 doesn't date back to the 1970s?

Ah, that's right, the truth is inconvenient.

Philip wrote:inducting a jack-of-all trades, multi-role aircraft which can soldier on for a few decades without getting too obsolete

In today's age, obsolete is defined as 'upgrades no longer provided'

How long is Russia going to provide upgrades for the MiG-35? That's what I thought.

Philip wrote:It would be more prudent for the IAF to buy the most cost-effective,maintenaance freindly fighter of the lot,consreving our scarce resources and focussing our development efforts on the key aircraft which will give the IAF the edge in the regional air stakes,the 5th-gen fighter.

Sounds like you've come around to the SH, congratulations!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 07 Jan 2010 03:13

Rahul M wrote:
durgesh wrote:Which of the contenders can beat Su30 - MKK hands down and does not come with any strings attached ? That's MRCA winner.
MKK ?

Modernizirovannyi Kommercheskiy Kitayski = “Modernised Commercial for China” ? for IAF MRCA ?
really ?

What's wrong with that statement? In a potential war with china the MRCA is likely to come up against the MKK isn't it?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jan 2010 18:33

Not on your nellie,Welch! The MIG-29/35 dates from the '80s when it was first revealed ALONG with the SU-27 Flanker at Farnborough.What amazed the western aviation experts was now the Soviets designed and built two complementary aircraft with fantastic aerodynamics It just goes to show that if the SU-27 can morph into the SU-30MKI,SU-33/34/35,so can the MIG-29/35 be upgraded further.As to which aircraft amongst the contenders will be the most cost-effective,the twin-engined Eurocanards along with the F-18SH (without TVC,tich,tich!) will be the most expensive,judging from recent deals made and quotes.The F-16,Gripen and MIG-35 will be the cheapest.But there is a long way to go before the GOI decides,as the political pressure will be enormous.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Jan 2010 00:46

Philip wrote:Not on your nellie,Welch! The MIG-29/35 dates from the '80s when it was first revealed ALONG with the SU-27 Flanker at Farnborough.What amazed the western aviation experts was now the Soviets designed and built two complementary aircraft with fantastic aerodynamics.

if you want to state facts, then be honest. the MiG-29 was in the works since the 1970s only, it didn't just appear in the 1980s out of nowhere. and while its aerodynamics were admired, its MMI was always considered poor compared to its peers- the F-16 and Mirage-2000. Russians paid little attention to cockpit ergonomics or pilot workload since their style of GCI based intercepts really took away a part of the pilot's workload. However, for countries like India, the tactics that were used were not completely GCI based, and require a lot of independent pilot inputs, for which the original Fulcrum's MMI was really poor.

It just goes to show that if the SU-27 can morph into the SU-30MKI,SU-33/34/35,so can the MIG-29/35 be upgraded further.

So, the Su-27 can "morph" and so can the MiG-29, but if the F-16 or F-18 do so, they're basically outdated airplanes ? your bias is very very obvious here. you keep cribbing about the Super Hornet, despite knowing very well that its development only dates back to early 1990s and the same goes for the F-16 which you claim is nearing end of production. guess what ? if the IAF doesn't buy the MiG-35, fat chance that it'll enter service in any worthwhile numbers. even the Russian Navy only bought the MiG-29K AFTER the Indian Navy's money paid for that programme to develop and flight test a proper, modern MiG-29K.

As to which aircraft amongst the contenders will be the most cost-effective,the twin-engined Eurocanards along with the F-18SH (without TVC,tich,tich!) will be the most expensive,judging from recent deals made and quotes.The F-16,Gripen and MIG-35 will be the cheapest.But there is a long way to go before the GOI decides,as the political pressure will be enormous.

if the operator with the most TVC experience- the IAF i.e, thought that TVC was a game-changer, they'd ask for it as a requirement from the MRCA, just as they made AESA mandatory despite the fact that most MRCA candidates at that time didn't have an AESA in the works. the fact that they haven't suggests that while it will give operational benefits, its not a silver bullet solution.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 08 Jan 2010 03:22

But isn't it also correct that the basic airframes of Mig 29 or Su 27 where so good a design that upgrades can make Mig 29/Su 27 worthful for another 30-40 years while F-16 and to an extend the F-18 cannot. Just think about what all can be done with the Su 30 MKI airframe its just amazing. And it is for this reason that I think it is not justifiable to think Mig-35 and Su 30 as a design of 1970s. Compared to Rafale/EuroFighter it will not just hold the ground but will beat them hands down. Oh I love Shankars scenarios.

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 08 Jan 2010 04:12

Viv S wrote:
Jean_M wrote: [*] Rafale and F-22s fought 6 times, during which F-22s only got one kill.

Not unless the F-22s were grounded. Its the world's foremost fighter aircraft in all respects by a very large margin. It would be stretching incredulity rather far to believe it came up second best against the Rafale.

Read carrefully, it doesn't mean it was beaten on the other encounters. Draws happen on simulated dogfights.

@ austin, believe what you want. On the french side it was confirmed by two *serious* journalists and they gave their source. No word from BAE or english mod since then either. I'll give it some credit unless proven wrong, but I admit I'm far from neutral on that point.

On another topic, guess who came back through the window ? good or bad news ? Have you heard of it from indian sources ?

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairf ... comments=Y
First lines:

India Summons French Reinforcements
January 5, 2010: The Indian government has overruled its air force and approved French assistance in bailing out an Indian attempt to develop an engine for the Indian designed LCA (Light Combat Aircraft, or "Tejas"). The French engine manufacturer Snecma will provide technical assistance that will cost the Indians over $200 million. Earlier last year, the Indian air force had asserted that Snecma assistance would not bail out the ill-fated Kaveri engine program. But the government apparently believes that it is necessary for India to acquire the ability to design and build world class jet engines. Only a few nations can do this, and India wants to be one of them, soon, at whatever cost.