National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

[Pranav]

Some encouraging news:

At 11.03 per cent, Bihar growth rate only a step behind Gujarat : http://www.indianexpress.com/news/at-11 ... t/563018/0

An important national priority is revival of the badly mismanaged Gangetic plains - UP and Bihar.

These were the most prosperous areas of ancient India, and indeed the capital of the Mauryan empire was in Bihar. The revival of these areas is vital for the revival of Indic civilization.

[Abhi_G]

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100104/j ... 939668.jsp
Call for first caste census

India may next year witness its first census since Independence that refers to caste, if the Centre accepts a social justice ministry recommendation that could be politically controversial.

Officials said the ministry had asked for caste to be included as one of the criteria in the 2011 census, and recommended a differential headcount of the Other Backward Classes and reassessment of their conditions that could lead to changes in the OBC list.

The last census that cited caste took place in 1931, after which caste was dropped from the exercise on the ground that it would lead to divisiveness. The country’s first home minister, Vallabhbhai Patel, had declared that a caste count would never be done in Independent India. Successive governments have since then resisted calls for such a survey, fearing controversy.

Now, armed with the fresh demands, the social justice ministry argues that such a count is necessary to assess the changes that government schemes have brought about in the social, economic and educational conditions of the various castes since 1931.

A ministry official acknowledged that the OBCs were at the heart of the proposed caste census. Ever since the Centre accepted the Mandal Commission’s recommendations on job reservations in 1990, there have been several demands for accurate OBC population figures.The ministry wants the census directorate, which is under the home ministry, to reassess the various groups’ backwardness as well.

[ShauryaT]

^^^ What we need is an amendment of articles 15 and 16, to ensure non-discrimination and elimination of reservation based on any social or genetic criteria, across the board. Not a caste census!

[RayC]

Can't be done.

Indic values.

Manu.

[Sanku]

^^^ What we need is an amendment of articles 15 and 16, to ensure non-discrimination and elimination of reservation based on any social or genetic criteria, across the board. Not a caste census!

True, most people would be surprised to know this but the caste angle was first played by the Brits (who else) in 1905 where they wanted a separate electorate for the "oppressed classes" just like for Muslims.

The caste thing is a clearly manufactured divide by the British, the problem unfortunately is with the Indian "leadership" who is so badly brainwashed in the Mackualite framework consider caste to be a Indic problem and British to be the unifier rather than the other way around which is the reality.

Pity the small minds.

[RayC]

And what did Manu do?

I did not know he was an Englishman!

[Virupaksha]

Completely OT

Manu.

Manu,

I am part of the group which is said to be representing head part of it. But let me assure you one thing. I have never heard of anybody talking of Manu except in english text books/ discorses.

There is a difference between smriti and shruti. Smritis are interpretations and valid only for a particular society and time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smriti

The smṛtis are metrical texts. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of texts that fall into this category

Smriti does not have divine origins.

In a sense, Smriti consists of the memories of wisdom that sages have passed on to their disciples.

Now regarding Manusmriti in particular
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_Manu

The Manu Smriti was one of the first Sanskrit texts studied by the British. It was first translated into English by the founder of indology, Sir William Jones. His version was published in 1794.[21] British administrative requirements encouraged their interest in the Dharmashastras, which they believed to be legal codes. In fact, these were not codes of law but norms related to social obligations and ritual requirements.[22] According to Avari:
The text was never universally followed or acclaimed by the vast majority of Indians in their history; it came to the world's attention through a late eighteenth-century translation by Sir William Jones, who mistakenly exaggerated both its antiquity and its importance. Today many of its ideas are popularised as the golden norm of classical Hindu law by Hindu universalists. They are, however, anathema to modern thinkers and particularly feminists.[23]

They confused these Smritis with the equivalents of divine religious authorities like bible- because it is not part of their culture to be able to eloborate or investigate such religious texts.

So pardon me for asking, what are you talking about?

[RayC]

According to the ancient Hindu scriptures, there are four "varnas." The Bhagavad Gita says varnas are decided based on Guna and Karma. Manusmriti and some other shastras mention four varnas: the Brahmins (teachers, scholars and priests), the Kshatriyas (kings and warriors), the Vaishyas (agriculturists and traders), and Shudras (service providers and artisans). This theoretical system postulated Varna categories as ideals and explained away the reality of thousands of endogamous Jātis actually prevailing in the country as being the historical products of intermarriage among the "pure" Varnas - Varna Sankara. All those, including foreigners, tribals and nomads, who did not subscribe to the norms of the Hindu society were contagious and untouchables. Another group excluded from the main society was called Parjanya or Antyaja. This group of former "untouchables" (self described as Dalits) ie downtrodden, was considered either the lower section of Shudras or outside the caste system altogether. Passages from scriptures such as Manusmriti indicate that the varna system was originally non-hereditary.[10]

Several critics of Hinduism state that the caste system is rooted in the varna system mentioned in the ancient Hindu scriptures.[11] However, many groups, such as ISKCON, consider the modern Indian caste system and the varna system as two distinct concepts.[12][13] Many European scholars from the colonial era regarded the Manusmriti as the "law book" of the Hindus, and thus concluded that the caste system is a part of Hinduism, an assertion that is rejected by many Hindu scholars, who state that it is an anachronistic social practice, not a religious one.[14][15][16][17]

Although many Hindu scriptures contain passages that can be interpreted to sanction the caste system, they also contain indications that the caste system is not an essential part of Hinduism. The Vedas place very little importance on the caste system, mentioning caste only once (in the Purush Sukta) out of tens of thousands of verses. B. R. Ambedkar believed that even this is a much later interpolation and gave evidence to support his conclusion. In the Vedic period, there was no prohibition against the Shudras listening to the Vedas or participating in any religious rite.[18]

So pardon me, who are fooling?

Of course it is OT, since it does not fit your agenda!

[Virupaksha]

Although many Hindu scriptures contain passages that can be interpreted to sanction the caste system, they also contain indications that the caste system is not an essential part of Hinduism. The Vedas place very little importance on the caste system, mentioning caste only once (in the Purush Sukta) out of tens of thousands of verses. B. R. Ambedkar believed that even this is a much later interpolation and gave evidence to support his conclusion. In the Vedic period, there was no prohibition against the Shudras listening to the Vedas or participating in any religious rite.[18]

Your post, sir.

[RayC]

Although many Hindu scriptures contain passages that can be interpreted to sanction the caste system, they also contain indications that the caste system is not an essential part of Hinduism. The Vedas place very little importance on the caste system, mentioning caste only once (in the Purush Sukta) out of tens of thousands of verses. B. R. Ambedkar believed that even this is a much later interpolation and gave evidence to support his conclusion. In the Vedic period, there was no prohibition against the Shudras listening to the Vedas or participating in any religious rite.[18]

Your post, sir.

True.

I am honest. I don't post selective issues that support my views.

But read in full.

Why do we have the caste system if it were not sanctified?

Now, if the Hindu scriptures don't support it, then it would not have survived the Indic civilisation that we so proudly flaunt! Or would it?

Let it be answered without the wishy washy double talk and instead straight, as straight as I have said!

[Sanku]

Manu

I will look forward to which castes have been enumerated by Manu. (this of course is in addition to what ravi_ku has already said)

Why do we have the caste system if it were not sanctified?

It is sanctified, by GoI which is the practical successor to British Govt of India.

Meanwhile please also tell us what according to you caste system is.

[RayC]

Manu

I will look forward to which castes have been enumerated by Manu. (this of course is in addition to what ravi_ku has already said)

Why do we have the caste system if it were not sanctified?

It is sanctified, by GoI which is the practical successor to British Govt of India.

Meanwhile please also tell us what according to you caste system is.

Good.

So, there is no caste system in India.

A figment of British imagination, right?

Since you are the Hinduvta or whatever expert, do give us your views so that mere mortals are enlightened!

Your logic is unique!

You will surely find some shadow to chase to clease your tormented soul!

[Sanku]

I will look forward to which castes have been enumerated by Manu. (this of course is in addition to what ravi_ku has already said)

It is sanctified, by GoI which is the practical successor to British Govt of India.

Meanwhile please also tell us what according to you caste system is.

Good.

So, there is no caste system in India.

A figment of British imagination, right?

Yes there is no caste system in India.

There is a framework of varna, which is an intellectual way of understanding society and interactions and a practical system of Jati's which are guild/familial systems.

This is one of the many deliberate intellectual foists on India during the last 300 years.

[Virupaksha]

Why do we have the caste system if it were not sanctified?

sanctified and codified by whom and why?

For example, Mourya dynasty of Ashoka was supposed to be established by a person born of a maid. When Chandra gupta mourya started out he had nothing but how was he able to defeat and conquer a kingdom which ruled almost half of India?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandragupta_Maurya

Or the kakatiyas, were supposed to be of low castes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakatiya_dynasty

I may not be able to pinpoint, but Airavat had pointed out that in some cases when a dynasty fell, their caste became a lower caste.

There was to an extent fluidity in the whole system. When you codify something unfortunately you lose the fluidity.

To say that

Now, if the Hindu scriptures don't support it, then it would not have survived the Indic civilisation that we so proudly flaunt! Or would it?

and sir, you are looking with wrong perspectives. for a hindu to do or not do something, he doesnt need or have divine sanction. So I personally do not care if hindu scriptures support xyz or not.

[RayC]

I will look forward to which castes have been enumerated by Manu. (this of course is in addition to what ravi_ku has already said)

It is sanctified, by GoI which is the practical successor to British Govt of India.

Meanwhile please also tell us what according to you caste system is.

Good.

So, there is no caste system in India.

A figment of British imagination, right?

Yes there is no caste system in India.

There is a framework of varna, which is an intellectual way of understanding society and interactions and a practical system of Jati's which are guild/familial systems.

This is one of the many deliberate intellectual foists on India during the last 300 years.

Thank you.

You take the cake!

[Sanku]

Thank you.

You take the cake!

Gladly, I like cakes, along with tea actually.

[RayC]

I have left it to the Mods, who are very learned on the subject to decide.

I have said what I have to say.

Thank you!

Sanku,

I am not surprised that metaphoric English was not your forte, even though you post in English!

[arnab]

Yes there is no caste system in India.

There is a framework of varna, which is an intellectual way of understanding society and interactions and a practical system of Jati's which are guild/familial systems.

This is one of the many deliberate intellectual foists on India during the last 300 years.

Just curious, but are you arguing that the caste system does not exist in 'theory' or that it does not exist in 'reality'? If it is the former then isn't that line of argument about as useful as the argument trotted out by pakis after every terrorist atrocity - 'islam is a religion of peace'?

[Sanku]

Yes there is no caste system in India.

There is a framework of varna, which is an intellectual way of understanding society and interactions and a practical system of Jati's which are guild/familial systems.

This is one of the many deliberate intellectual foists on India during the last 300 years.

Just curious, but are you arguing that the caste system does not exist in 'theory' or that it does not exist in 'reality'? If it is the former then isn't that line of argument about as useful as the argument trotted out by pakis after every terrorist atrocity - 'islam is a religion of peace'?

There is a framework of varna, which is an intellectual way of understanding society and interactions and a practical system of Jati's which are guild/familial systems.

[RayC]

Islam indeed is a religion of peace by that yardstick.

Look at the practical part of the issue and interpret it from the spiritual angle with the philosophical and the esoteric!

[arnab]

[
There is a framework of varna, which is an intellectual way of understanding society and interactions and a practical system of Jati's which are guild/familial systems.

So when Mayawati says - 'Tilak, Taraju aur Talwar, inko maaro joote chaar' is she talking about the intellectual bit or the practical bit?

[RayC]

It maybe interesting to add that I reported a post which was very Hindu heavy without logic and it has been removed!

Interesting is the least I can say!

I maybe banned, but I would like to be clear on this issue. WE are Indians. We are not perfect. There are those who work against India and I will also be clear that those who work against India are not always minorities and I say that with authority.

Therefore, I feel pained when agendas are promoted by any party, religious or political and their self appointed surrogates.

If that is a crime to stand for a united India, I stand guilty!

[rkirankr]

Islam indeed is a religion of peace by that yardstick.

Look at the practical part of the issue and interpret it from the spiritual angle with the philosophical and the esoteric!

The practical part is India was raped for 800 years based on assumed superiority of the religion. When the belief is that the last word and last interpretation of the philosophy has been said 1400 yrs ago, what more is there to interpret? Can we have a Buddha there,who questioned some aspects of Vedic religion? Can we have a Shankara there,who question Budhism and reestablished Hinduism? Can we have a Ramanuja there,who questioned the tenets of Shankara? Can we have a Madhva there, who questioned the tenets of all the above? Each one flourished and their followers are innumerable today.

However I am surprised at this deviation from the discussion by you. The discussion was supposed to be on caste system. Why bring in Islam? We are not comparing Hinduism with Islam are we.

[Sanku]

[
There is a framework of varna, which is an intellectual way of understanding society and interactions and a practical system of Jati's which are guild/familial systems.

So when Mayawati says - 'Tilak, Taraju aur Talwar, inko maaro joote chaar' is she talking about the intellectual bit or the practical bit?

You are a little behind on the times on life and statements of Mayawati are you not?

That alone to me is solidly symptomatic of those issues in independent Bharat (before and after the British rapine) and remember this is when we have a severely distorted social picture due to that.

[Sanku]

Sanku,

I am not surprised that metaphoric English was not your forte, even though you post in English!

You missed the retort RayC, and you thought I dont understand the metaphors based on 18/19th century British (English) customs!!



Can we avoid getting personal please?

[RayC]

Sanku,

I am not surprised that metaphoric English was not your forte, even though you post in English!

You missed the retort RayC, and you thought I dont understand the metaphors based on 18/19th century British (English) customs!!



Can we avoid getting personal please?

I am not being personal.

I am bewildered and totally at sea that a person who writes English is so at sea with the language and reduce it to dateline without realising that it is current!

No tricks please to trap me and toadying up to Mods.

You language is clear!

Retort?

Without being personal, please do not overestimate yourself! English language is too subtle for many who can speak but are not quite versatile! What I wrote is not ancient. It is quite current. It is those who have not even a modicum of the nuances who obfuscate with inanities. Please read McMordi's Idioms for a start and Fowlers. Will help! Did not waste my time and my father's money to learn the languages!

Do spare me with your tiresome illogical ignorance of the English language!

I admit it is quite impossible to bridge the chasm!

NO wonder we are at cross purposes and you are not at fault!

[RayC]

The practical part is India was raped for 800 years based on assumed superiority of the religion. When the belief is that the last word and last interpretation of the philosophy has been said 1400 yrs ago, what more is there to interpret? Can we have a Buddha there,who questioned some aspects of Vedic religion? Can we have a Shankara there,who question Budhism and reestablished Hinduism? Can we have a Ramanuja there,who questioned the tenets of Shankara? Can we have a Madhva there, who questioned the tenets of all the above? Each one flourished and their followers are innumerable today.

However I am surprised at this deviation from the discussion by you. The discussion was supposed to be on caste system. Why bring in Islam? We are not comparing Hinduism with Islam are we.

If India was raped, who is at fault?

Brave Indic warriors? So sad that the Internet was not there in those times!

By yakking of Indic stuff, are we any better?

Let us not look at the past as a part of our glory. Let us look at the errors. Be honest to admit it and get working to make it better.

We cannot wish away what the past has given us. We must admit it and work our way through.

We cannot throw out the past or the issues of the present. We have to work through it for a bright (hopefully) future!!

[RayC]

OK you guys win.

Delusions is good for health and the mind!

[rkirankr]

OK you guys win.

Delusions is good for health and the mind!

Well if it improves your health, fine Wishing you a Healthy 2010

[RayC]

OK you guys win.

Delusions is good for health and the mind!

Well if it improves your health, fine Wishing you a Healthy 2010

Thank you.

I still run 10 miles a day.

I am sure you run 30 miles!

[rkirankr]

Thank you.

I still run 10 miles a day.

I am sure you run 30 miles!

Nope being a fundamentalist Indic , I do some Yoga.

[RayC]

I never fails me to be amazed at the bedtime stories, obfuscations and pretzels justification that are bandied and is accepted by the forum.

Arjun would not take up arms against Bhisma. Krishna, I believe, advised Arjun to put Shikundi in his chariot to make Bishma give up arms and then......?

Brave, what?

I am sure you claim that is also false as Manusmiriti or you will find some pretzel like explanation!

And what about Ekalavya story?

And the very moral way Ram killed Bali!

Very moral, right?

[RayC]

Thank you.

I still run 10 miles a day.

I am sure you run 30 miles!

Nope being a fundamentalist Indic , I do some Yoga.

So do I.

What's the big deal then?

[Chandragupta]

The practical part is India was raped for 800 years based on assumed superiority of the religion. When the belief is that the last word and last interpretation of the philosophy has been said 1400 yrs ago, what more is there to interpret? Can we have a Buddha there,who questioned some aspects of Vedic religion? Can we have a Shankara there,who question Budhism and reestablished Hinduism? Can we have a Ramanuja there,who questioned the tenets of Shankara? Can we have a Madhva there, who questioned the tenets of all the above? Each one flourished and their followers are innumerable today.

However I am surprised at this deviation from the discussion by you. The discussion was supposed to be on caste system. Why bring in Islam? We are not comparing Hinduism with Islam are we.

If India was raped, who is at fault?

Brave Indic warriors? So sad that the Internet was not there in those times!

By yakking of Indic stuff, are we any better?

Let us not look at the past as a part of our glory. Let us look at the errors. Be honest to admit it and get working to make it better.

We cannot wish away what the past has given us. We must admit it and work our way through.

We cannot throw out the past or the issues of the present. We have to work through it for a bright (hopefully) future!!

I agree completely sir. The fact that India has been ruled by foreigners for 1000 years itself is a testament to our shortcomings. By doing what we did back then, we are only going to make the history repeat itself.

--------

There is another thing I want to talk about and since I'm not sure about where it should go, I'm putting it here. We talk about the brown sahibs & their shameless betrayal of the motherland. But given the youth population of the country and given the fact that a considerable portion of these young Indians dream of nothing else but landing a dollar job, moving to Amrika or Europe, sipping wine, eating caviar & ball dancing with their wives. This is what they see as mannerisms of the elite, which is what they aspire to become a part of. A part of this process also involves surrendering their indic values, as a 'necessary' sacrifice in order to be accepted into this part of the society. Is it not dangerous to have an elite thats devoid of anything that reeks of Indian values, while having considerable influence of its own on the rest of the society?

[Virupaksha]

And what about Ekalavya story?

And the very moral way Ram killed Bali!

Very moral, right?

in what other culture will you find such reams and reams of books debating about them. and morals are very different from dharma. It is dharma which these books talk about.

Thou shall not lie - is a moral (i). But is it right in all situations?

Now one of my childhood story goes something like this. A murderer is after a person who takes shelter with a sadhu. Now the murderer asks the sadhu do you know where this person is. Should he lie and save the person or should he say the truth and get him killed?

Instead of the simplistic and absolute morals in (i) which are idealistic yet not useful in actual situations. It is these situations which are attempted to be explained in those stories.

Unfortunately many confuse the morals with dharma.

Edit: have you seen the latest movie ekalavya of big B? It attempts to provide another view for what ekalavya should have done. Of course, as in filmi style I didnt find the logic too much grounded, but still.

[RamaY]

I never fails me to be amazed at the bedtime stories, obfuscations and pretzels justification that are bandied and is accepted by the forum.
Arjun would not take up arms against Bhisma. Krishna, I believe, advised Arjun to put Shikundi in his chariot to make Bishma give up arms and then......?
Brave, what?
I am sure you claim that is also false as Manusmiriti or you will find some pretzel like explanation!
And what about Ekalavya story?
And the very moral way Ram killed Bali!
Very moral, right?

RayC-ji,

Why asking someone? Read Valmiki Ramayana and Vyasa Bharata (the original texts) and you will get the answers you are seeking. Those epics present the truth as is, irrespective of it is the right thing or wrong thing to do. Those epics also give the context, and describe the "unintended consequences" of one's actions.

If India was raped, who is at fault?
Brave Indic warriors? So sad that the Internet was not there in those times!
By yakking of Indic stuff, are we any better?
Let us not look at the past as a part of our glory. Let us look at the errors. Be honest to admit it and get working to make it better.
We cannot wish away what the past has given us. We must admit it and work our way through.
We cannot throw out the past or the issues of the present. We have to work through it for a bright (hopefully) future!!

You are a retired Brigadier! What is your proposal to defend Bharat against foreign military/ideological/economic conquests in 21st century?

[Manish_Sharma]

If India was raped, who is at fault?

Brave Indic warriors? So sad that the Internet was not there in those times!

RayC when a country which is contented and rich is continuously attacked/invaded by outsiders. There maybe moments in between when it is not able to defend due to internal reasons.

Let's take the example of a strong man going from point A to point B, now this path is full of bandits and he has to move forward fighting/protecting himself and the treasure he is carrying for 2 years time. Now even though he wins/protects himself 80% of the time, there may come moments when he suffers fever/cholera/wounds due to accidents when he is not able to protect the treasure he is carrying.

The same way for 2000 years we were only defensive and enemies were on offense. The thing was we never thought of expanding/attacking/genociding the enemy lands. If we had done so things may have been very very very different.

Even today if somebody like Brihaspati talks about expanding you start jumping shouting trying to shout him down.

Its never too late. Why not think of expanding now?

Can you see how far you have come from bible thumping/taking high moral stands based upon bible you took while moderatin GeorgeJ to last few days abusive language and tantrums since losing moderator post? Put a stop to it, take a few days off cool down and come back fresh!

[arnab]

You are a little behind on the times on life and statements of Mayawati are you not?

That alone to me is solidly symptomatic of those issues in independent Bharat (before and after the British rapine) and remember this is when we have a severely distorted social picture due to that.

Hmm - so it is just a question of a 'distorted view' rather than the reality. Why does this remind me of the packees who constantly claim that all their ills are due to negative 'perceptions'? I think this is symptomatic of the similarity in the thought process of the indics and the packees

[munna]

You are a little behind on the times on life and statements of Mayawati are you not?

That alone to me is solidly symptomatic of those issues in independent Bharat (before and after the British rapine) and remember this is when we have a severely distorted social picture due to that.

Hmm - so it is just a question of a 'distorted view' rather than the reality. Why does this remind me of the packees who constantly claim that all their ills are due to negative 'perceptions'? I think this is symptomatic of the similarity in the thought process of the indics and the packees

Arnab Sanku is right about you falling behind time when it comes to Mayawati politics. Her new slogan is "Haathi Nahi Ganesh hai, Brhma Vishnu Mahesh hai" (This is not an elephant but lord Ganesha and a representative of Brahma Vishnu Mahesh trinity). Caste strcutures and varna structures suffer from the problem of "group sink/swim" ie in our history various caste groups have risen and fallen together from time to time, and have also been absorbed as completely different groups. Therefore the postulation of caste system as being a "Time Consistent" system of divisions in the society that caused sclerosis to set in is wrong but at the same time its existence was there. The class system proposed in Vedas was ossified during middle ages/british times but then again you saw Jats (agriculturists by profession hence chaturth varna) rise in middle ages to become rulers as Sikhs in Punjab and some places in Rajasthan (House of Dholpur) and today Jatts are classified in places as OBCs. So being rulers how can they be opressed today?

The above example illustrates the complexity and layers of arguments involved. Those who take shortcut to deny anything are as faulty (see my subtle equal equal ) as the ones who use old realities or do not delve into details.
In short yes there are local social structures peculiar to various places but neither are they time consistent nor are they homothetic geographically.

[arnab]

Arnab Sanku is right about you falling behind time when it comes to Mayawati politics. Her new slogan is "Haathi Nahi Ganesh hai, Brhma Vishnu Mahesh hai" (This is not an elephant but lord Ganesha and a representative of Brahma Vishnu Mahesh trinity). Caste strcutures and varna structures suffer from the problem of "group sink/swim" ie in our history various caste groups have risen and fallen together from time to time, and have also been absorbed as completely different groups. Therefore the postulation of caste system as being a "Time Consistent" system of divisions in the society that caused sclerosis to set in is wrong but at the same time its existence was there. The class system proposed in Vedas was ossified during middle ages/british times but then again you saw Jats (agriculturists by profession hence chaturth varna) rise in middle ages to become rulers as Sikhs in Punjab and some places in Rajasthan (House of Dholpur) and today Jatts are classified in places as OBCs. So being rulers how can they be opressed today?

The above example illustrates the complexity and layers of arguments involved. Those who take shortcut to deny anything are as faulty (see my subtle equal equal ) as the ones who use old realities or do not delve into details.
In short yes there are local social structures peculiar to various places but neither are they time consistent nor are they homothetic geographically.

Munna, I completely agree that the 'caste / varna /jati system should be viewed as an organic entity. I do not claim that these structures are time consistent or that the Brits understood these 'fissures' correctly. My point was simply that they exist and not merely as an intellectual or a practical structure but as something which has often proved to be extremely divisive even in recent years. It is certainly not my case that the 'upper castes' are mistreating the 'lower' castes etc etc and hence they should pay.