National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

[Rahul Mehta]

It is certainly not my case that the 'upper castes' are mistreating the 'lower' castes etc etc and hence they should pay.

Dalits are not allowed to enter Puri Temple.

And what administrative steps do you propose end this mess?

The answer to above question mayl very likely show the extent to which upper middle class of upper caste is responsible for this mess.

[Jarita]

^^^^ Upper middle class of upper caste!! That is a tongue twister for sure
What abt upper middle class of middle caste or so called lower caste...
Or upper middle class of upper middle caste

The educated Indians are at fault. Let it be at that.

[Sanku]

You are a little behind on the times on life and statements of Mayawati are you not?

That alone to me is solidly symptomatic of those issues in independent Bharat (before and after the British rapine) and remember this is when we have a severely distorted social picture due to that.

Hmm - so it is just a question of a 'distorted view' rather than the reality. Why does this remind me of the packees who constantly claim that all their ills are due to negative 'perceptions'? I think this is symptomatic of the similarity in the thought process of the indics and the packees

So failing all attempts at logic (as was obvious since you are grossly misinformed) you resort to personal attacks and comparisons with Pakistanis.

Thank you, I could not have demonstrated the obvious hollowness of your positions better myself.

As can be seen by the post by you which pretty much echos what I said but still you can not avoid personal jibes

[Sanku]

It is certainly not my case that the 'upper castes' are mistreating the 'lower' castes etc etc and hence they should pay.

Dalits are not allowed to enter Puri Temple.

Wow RM you are at your misinformation campaign once again arent you.

[Yayavar]

Dalits are not allowed to enter Puri Temple.

Wow RM you are at your misinformation campaign once again arent you.

RM probably means this:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1091203/j ... 813865.jsp

There are still pockets of such behaviour.

[Sanku]

"Rahul Mehta">>

Dalits are not allowed to enter Puri Temple.

Wow RM you are at your misinformation campaign once again arent you.

RM probably means this:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1091203/j ... 813865.jsp

There are still pockets of such behaviour.

Sure Viv, dont deny that such things dont happen, especially in smaller villages, I am well aware of Jati specific temples etc. No one even cribs there really about it for some reason (not justifying it) so we dont hear of it in media.

However this is NOT what RM said. The major temples if caught doing anything so stupid at this would get themselves in hot oil. Anyway Puri DOES NOT check for Jati, only if Hindu, which check is implemented by looking for white skin.

This is plain disinformation, the likes of which Shri RM jee liberally dishes out on EVM thread etc.

[Rahul Mehta]

^^^^ Upper middle class of upper caste!! That is a tongue twister for sure
What abt upper middle class of middle caste or so called lower caste...
Or upper middle class of upper middle caste

The educated Indians are at fault. Let it be at that.

Jarita,

I am pinning the focus on "upper middle class of upper caste" because middle class, lower middle class and lower class of all of castes, has no means, time, network, money to take any action. So I dont want to blame them for inactions. But upper middle class is capable of taking action, and so in case of deliberate inaction, I do blame them. As per upper class, the upper class lives in a separate world where morality, nationalism, nation, saving religion or even saving India etc doesn't exist. So I dont want to waste anyone's time in even talking about them, forget blaming them.

---

Wow RM you are at your misinformation campaign once again arent you.

Perhaps Sandhya Jain, Hindu and India Today are all on disinformation campaign.

=== article starts====

Sorry, no links, as pioneer doesn't archive.

Temple entry a sastric right - By Sandhya Jain

....... Given this explicit inclusion of all castes within the fold of dharma and temple worship, it is unfortunate that the ugly face of Hindu arrogance has risen, for the second time in two years, in Orissa's Kendrapara district. In July 2004, over a hundred Dalits of Badanka village threatened to convert to Christianity in frustration at upper castes excluding them from the village temple. Bajrang Dal activists had then rushed to bridge the caste divide, but their intervention clearly failed to yield lasting dividends. ...... Hence the shameful standoff spanning several days, in November 2006, as Dalits were denied entry inside the Kendrapara Jagannath temple owned by the erstwhile royal family. .... Right-thinking citizens are perturbed over the silence of the Shankaracharyas and the Hindu Dharma Acharya Sabha. In a communication to concerned Hindus, VHP president Ashok Singhal claims that volunteers led by Swami Laxmananand Saraswati visited the spot and their efforts led to the demolition of the walls with peepholes for darshan by Dalits and the creation of an environment in which all members of society could enjoy equal rights to darshan.

=== end of Sandhya Jain's disinformation campaign====

==== Hindu's disinformation campaign ===

http://www.hindu.com/2006/12/17/stories ... 870400.htm

`No entry' to Dalits at Puri temple condemned

AICC SC cell chairman Yogendra Makwana has called upon Dalits in the country to observe restraint despite provocation and be united to fight for their rights. Mr. Makwana was speaking at the maiden meeting of the newly constituted SC cell's executive of the Andhra Pradesh Congress Committee here on Saturday. Expressing anguish at the denial of entry of Dalits into the Puri Jagannath temple in Orissa, he said such acts hurt their sentiments.

==== end of Hindu article===

== India Today on disinformation campaign===

http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20070618/kerala.html

JAGANNATH TEMPLE
LOCATION: Puri, Orissa
Ban on Dalits. Open to Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains, but people of other religions barred.

====end of India Today snip ===

No one checks caste and so a dalit can sneak in. But if temple staff know that XYZ is dalit, he is not allowed to enter. And in case it is politically impossible to stop the entry due to press coverage etc, then they wash the temple with milk after he leaves. One more temple major where Dalits are banned till this date is Srinathji temple of Rajasthan. There too, one can "sneak in", but if it is known that he he dalit, he is stopped.

Now if you are done with your daily dose of RM-bashing, what laws, administrative steps do YOU suggest to stop the above mess? Do you support imprisonment of temple trustees? Do you support/oppose expulsion of judges who refuse to imprison the temple trustees? Or what steps do you propose? And surely, BJP MPs did not take the steps you are proposing in their 6 years of rule. Otherwise, the problem is something that can be fixed in 15 days, but did not get fixed even in 6 years. So care to explain why YOU support them despite the fact that they did not fix this mess in 30 days after they came into power?

(Aside : I dont mind their banning muslims, christians or even atheists like myself. Temple isnt tourist spot and need not be open for all, and can be restricted to believers only. I am only talking about Dalit entry in Puri, Srinathji and some other major, minor temples.)

[Yudhajit]

Sorry for asking this, but since google didn't help - are there two Jagannath Temples in Orissa?

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/no-entry-in- ... 011-3.html

I thought Jagannath temple in Orissa only meant Jagannath Puri temple in Orissa.

[SandeepA]

Talking of caste, I suggest we separate casteism from clanism/tribism and discuss it likewise. Communities like Yadavs, Reddys, Gouds, Linjayats, Thevars etc are not castes or subcastes. These are clans or tribes and their conflicts are clan wars and has nothing to do with caste as usually its 2 communities within a caste that are in conflict. Manusmriti only talks of 4 varnas. This was already discussed in BRF sometime back. Such clan loyalties exist in most other societies too, including Western and Islamic ones.
By understanding this we defeat the basic Macaulite agenda of vilifying Hinduism by refering to these disputes as examples of casteism. I propose we begin using this terminology in BRF. While 'tribe' may sound primitive, 'clan' can be more acceptable.

[Abhi_G]

Dalits are not allowed to enter Puri Temple.

RM sahab, are you talking about Jagannath Temple at PURI? This is the most famous temple and it is called PURI DHAM. Have you visted that temple? Nobody asks you anything when you enter the temple. I have personally visited four times there. This "dalit" issue comes in the news from time to time. Who knows it is not misinformation?

Added later: I personally do not understand the so called non-entry criteria of certain section of Hindus. Do the dalits say "we are not Hindus?" If so there is an issue. But again, if it is a question of caste of devotee, then temple authorities are totally wrong on this, even though nobody asks "what is your caste" when one enters the temple. We have a nice precedent of the Maharaja of Travancore opening doors of temples for all castes - a perfect example of statesmanship.

http://www.kamat.com/database/biographi ... ancore.htm

In 1936, when he was invested with ruling powers he earned his niche in history by reading the Temple Entry Proclamation.

Why does the GoI remain silent?

[RayC]

At the Jagannath Puri, there is a Board at the entrance that states 'Only Hindus are allowed'.

It is not feasible to know who is a Hindu and who is not unless he is a foreigner or having a small beard with a cap. Even then, none can say for sure!

[RamaY]

At the Jagannath Puri, there is a Board at the entrance that states 'Only Hindus are allowed'.

It is not feasible to know who is a Hindu and who is not unless he is a foreigner or having a small beard with a cap. Even then, none can say for sure!

I haven't been to Puri Jagannath temple.

Most of these famous templs have thousands of visitors on a daily basis. It is simply impossible to check one's caste/religious affiliation, unless one goes there shouting that I am non-Hindu and I want to enter the temple to prove something instead of seeking Bhagavan's darshan.

There are some temples that enforce certain dress culture. If one wants to enter that temple to seek Bhagavan's darshan, then they must follow those rules, to show respect to that temple.

[Jarita]

Why are these pple being coopted? This kind of stuff is not good

http://uc.princeton.edu/main/index.php/ ... ticle/1921

The Challenge of India
From The RSA (Royal Society for the encouragement of Arts, Manufactures & Commerce)
An RSA/TEHELKA two-day summit of political, business and civil society leaders share their knowledge and experience of how to engage with and understand India. Day 1 Day 2
Keynote - V.S. Naipaul Keynote - Ram Jethmalani
Shining India Potential Trips
Riddle of the Young Rough Weather
Keynote - Kapil Sibal New Passages to India





Speakers - Day 1:
Keynote 1 - V.S. Naipaul, author and Nobel laureate

Shining India, Shimmering India
- Aruna Roy - Social Activist, Mazdoor Kisan Shakti Sangathan (MKSS), Organisation for the Empowerment of Workers and Peasants
- Digvijaya Singh - General Secretary Congress Party & Former Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh
- J.J. Irani - Director, TATA Sons
- Lynn Forester de Rothschild - Chief Executive, EL Rothschild LLC- Manvendra Singh - BJP MP, Spokesperson

Riddle of the Young
- Arun Maira - Chairman, Boston Consulting Group India
- Manish Tewari - Secretary AICC and former president of the Youth Congress and NSUI
- Omar Abdullah - President of National Conference and Former Union Minister of State, External Affairs- Sandeep Pandey - Senior Social Activist, Co founder "Asha for Education" and leader National Alliance of People's Movements (NAPM)
Keynote 2 - Kapil Sibal, Union Minister, Science and Technology

Speakers - Day 2:
Keynote - Ram Jethmalani, Former Law Minister and Legal Luminary

Potential Trips: How you can fly, how you can fail
- Kamlesh Sharma - Indian High Commissioner, UK
- Grucharan Das - Management Guru & Ex CEO Procter & Gamble
- H.S. Narula - Chairman of the D S Group and Ebony Retail Holdings Ltd
- Manoj Badale - Co Founder and Managing Partner, Blenheim Chalcot
- Praful Patel - Minister of State for Civil Aviation with Independent Charge, Government of India
- Atul Punj - Chairman, Punj Lloyd

Rough Weather: India's role in global climate change
- Bittu Sahgal - Editor, Sanctuary Magazine
- Philip Stott - Emeritus Professor of Biogeography, University of London. Formerly Head of Geography at SOAS
- Ritu Kumar - Director, TERI Europe
- Nicholas Stern - Head of the Government Economic Service, Adviser to the UK government on Economics of Climate Change and former Chief Economist, World Bank- Vikram Mehta - Chairman, Shell India

New Passages to India
- Anshu Jain - Head of Global Markets, Deutsche Bank
- Bill Emmott - Former Editor, The Economist
- Karan Bilimoria - Founder and CEO, Cobra Beer
- Nikesh Arora - Vice President of European Operations, Google
- Stefan Kosciuszko - Chief Executive, Asia House

[Rahul Mehta]

Dalits are not allowed to enter Puri Temple.

1. RM sahab, are you talking about Jagannath Temple at PURI? This is the most famous temple and it is called PURI DHAM. Have you visted that temple?

2. Nobody asks you anything when you enter the temple. I have personally visited four times there.

3. This "dalit" issue comes in the news from time to time. Who knows it is not misinformation?

1. No. Never been Puri, Srinathjee temple.

2. Only those above 18 can drive a car. So do policemen check each and every driver all the time? NO. If the suspect, they will stop and check. So likewise, Puri/Srinathjee temple staff dont ask for caste certificates of visitors. But if they know, may be because of the guy is famous or guy is local, then staff would stop him. And if they cant because of media/police pressure, then they perform purification rites after dalit leaves.

3. I dont think Sandhya Jain would raise the issue Dalit entry unless it was at least partially true.

====

In any case, can anyone care to cite what administrative steps HE proposes to reduce this mess? And of the steps mentions, I would request him to cite which steps were taken and not taken by the leaders he voted for or supported in the last election. That will make it clear if his words and political actions are in synch. If they are out of synch, we will discuss that issue later.

[Jarita]

^^^^ This is blatantly untrue. I've been to the Puri temple a bunch of times. I can assure you that no one is doing any scans/checks etc.
The only rule they have is that you have to be a Hindu and even that is stretching it thin - only if person is gora or blatantly of another religion.
Please delete your posts on this subject. This is like a chinese whisper. SOmeone heard from someone who heard from someone else.
They are flamebait, nothing else.

[dipak]

I have been to Puri Jagannath Temple and I can confirm there is no such checking or verification.

The fact is that no one is being checked and verified for their caste etc before entering the temple.

And this leaves a clear possibility that few belonging to the so called "Dalit" community, might sneak-in the temple on a daily basis.
And yet, there is no rigorous checks, implies that the temple authorities are comfortable with it.
Else, they have to wash the temple everyday with milk or whatever, giving the possibility of some of the visitors (devotees) might be "dalits".

[Yayavar]

Perhaps Sandhya Jain, Hindu and India Today are all on disinformation campaign.

=== article starts====

Sorry, no links, as pioneer doesn't archive.

Temple entry a sastric right - By Sandhya Jain

....... Given this explicit inclusion of all castes within the fold of dharma and temple worship, it is unfortunate that the ugly face of Hindu arrogance has risen, for the second time in two years, in Orissa's Kendrapara district. In July 2004, over a hundred Dalits of Badanka village threatened to convert to Christianity in frustration at upper castes excluding them from the village temple. Bajrang Dal activists had then rushed to bridge the caste divide, but their intervention clearly failed to yield lasting dividends. ...... Hence the shameful standoff spanning several days, in November 2006, as Dalits were denied entry inside the Kendrapara Jagannath temple owned by the erstwhile royal family. .... Right-thinking citizens are perturbed over the silence of the Shankaracharyas and the Hindu Dharma Acharya Sabha. In a communication to concerned Hindus, VHP president Ashok Singhal claims that volunteers led by Swami Laxmananand Saraswati visited the spot and their efforts led to the demolition of the walls with peepholes for darshan by Dalits and the creation of an environment in which all members of society could enjoy equal rights to darshan.

=== end of Sandhya Jain's disinformation campaign====

RM, You are extrapolating a little more than necessary. It is Kendrappa temple not the Puri temple. The people there are/were wrong and so is your assigning the guilt to Puri. Btw, this article surprisingly paints the Bajrang Dal in good light -- they have helped to bridge this divide. Here is the full artcle "http://www.mail-archive.com/zestcaste@y ... 05467.html"

We need to point out the wrong and object to it. The problem is that if one starts reading more into it and generalizing it then it loses its impact - something our 'seculars' like Aroy or teesta do not understand. If they kept to the facts more people would listen and there would be a change of the real issues they notice. Instead they doctor and make it worse and thereby loose credibility.

I hasten to add that I'm not putting you with the above - - just using this as an opportunity to share my thoughts. The Sandhya Jain article talks about Kendrapara temple and says Puri has not said anything. The Hindu article seems to indicate Puri math is to blame since they use Puri,orissa in the byline.

The paragraphs you have extracted are:

Given this explicit inclusion of all castes within the fold of dharma
and temple worship, it is unfortunate that the ugly face of Hindu
arrogance has risen, for the second time in two years, in Orissa's
Kendrapara district. In July 2004, over a hundred Dalits of Badanka
village threatened to convert to Christianity in frustration at upper
castes excluding them from the village temple. Bajrang Dal activists
had then rushed to bridge the caste divide, but their intervention
clearly failed to yield lasting dividends.



Hence the shameful standoff spanning several days, in November 2006,
as Dalits were denied entry inside the Kendrapara Jagannath temple
owned by the erstwhile royal family. Right-thinking citizens are
perturbed over the silence of the Shankaracharyas and the Hindu Dharma
Acharya Sabha. In a communication to concerned Hindus, VHP president
Ashok Singhal claims that volunteers led by Swami Laxmananand
Saraswati visited the spot and their efforts led to the demolition of
the walls with peepholes for darshan by Dalits and the creation of an
environment in which all members of society could enjoy equal rights
to darshan.



I do not wish to contest Mr Singhal's claims, but all news reports
have credited the remedial measures taken in Kendrapara to the
district administration. There is no mention of any spiritual leader
visiting the site; attempts to elicit guidance from the Puri
Shankaracharya in the matter of Dalit entry in the temple met with
stony silence for days. I at least have not seen any positive
statement from the Puri matham. Mr Singhal has expressed surprise at
the Kendrapara incident because he was under the impression that
Jagannath temples are open to all Hindus irrespective of class, creed,
and gender, as is the case in Puri.

[archan]

I don't like you anymore.