BR Forum Piskology Thread

[RayC]

S0 he can slander me?

Thank you!


It comforts me.

Very fair!

[shiv]

What I still dont get is if your objective is to make BRF ites face their own biases head on and hold a mirror to them and ensure more Christian and Muslim participation, your actions have been confounding to say the least. You yourself have stated on many occasions that BRF is a gathering of exclusive and elite sections of India that are 99% Hindu with sizeable NRIs, and you must have been aware of this 2 years ago as well. So if you wanted to hold a mirror to them, would it not have been better if you had dissected Hinduism first, given that majority of BRFites are Hindu? Would it not have made better sense to have a post that went "Inside the mind of a chaddiwala" rather than a "Inside the mind of a mullah"? Your chances of success then would have been far greater , especially given that you were a mod at the time.

Off topic - this thread is going to get derailed. I would love a detailed discussion somewhere. Actually it was a process of learning for me. My idea (for decades) has been to write about Indian society. But with my involvement with BR/BRF and Pakistan sponsored - Islam mediated terrorism the need to suss out what was going on in that area was more urgent. But as Pakistan either sinks into an uncontrollable mess or tries to reinvent itself - I find that I have lived in India long enough to test the theories about Muslims and Hindus that were posted on this forum (and elsewhere) a decade ago. And I find that there is a lot of material that does not match and cannot be explained by the way "consensus on BRF" has done it.

I must point out that I had been back and working in India after living abroad and I had been back only for 6-7 years when I first got involved with BRF. I have now been back for nearly 20 years and have spent 2 times more years in India now than I had after joining BR. India has a particular way of working and Indians have ways of looking after themselves be they Hindu or Muslim or whoever. I believe I have seen, observed and interacted with people and read a lot more since then. So it is not as though I had a choice of saying some things first and other things later. It just panned out this way.

I don't know if it is a forum disease, or an NRI disease - but India and Indians in India are a lot more confident of themselves, their past and their future than one would think if people derived information from this forum alone. A Mullah making a fatwa is seen of this forum with deep anguish and fear or intense anger. India he is just another typical Indian madman, a pipsqueak, a little piece of nothing blahblahing something. The fatwa can get nowhere when you have a billion people competing and telling the next guy to stuff his fatwas up his backside. This is only an example.

The only analogy I can draw from my personal experience was watching the aftermath of Operation Bluestar on TV in the UK and the depiction of India in those black days would make me cry within myself for my country. Mental peace came later with a shortwave radio. After watching India burn up and the last rites being recited on BBC TV at 6-00 PM GMT, I would tune into AIR at 7 Pm only to hear a timeless AIR signal tune and "Zissizzol India Rajio. Zenewzz read by Shurajit Sen. India and Boputhatswana have signed an agreement on trade, technology and Space exploration. Dussehra was celebrated with gaiety and fervor all over the nation.. zzzzz"

Nobody on this forum who is not in touch with India on a day to day hour to hour basis wants to believe some of the things that can be said about India. On the forum anxiety, worry and heartache come pouring out at all sorts of news. The thrust is on worrying , and on lamenting on a perceived 800 years of abject defeat by people unable to sense the uncontrolled raw power of an increasingly confident 80% majority who can ruthlessly steamroller any minority unless they collectively take a deep breath and remind themselves of their own values.

India has a degree of raw power, We must be careful to channel that in the correct direction. Whatever the correct direction - ripping out and tearing up any minority in India be they 2% or 15% is not the way channel India's raw power. Fortunately in his regard most powerful Indians in India understand the proirities well - even if BRF does not. On the forum, the problem is of perception. And perceptions (cognition) cannot be changed easily. That is the stuff that cognitive dissoance is made of.

[RamaY]

I am posting this because this thread has officially been christened “BR Forum Piskology Thread”

Expecting BRF to be a microcosm of real-India may not be sustainable. Please allow me to explain:

It has already been established that we may not be able to attract people/perspectives from all sections of Indian society no matter what we do. There are barriers of interest, priority, language, and finally access to technology.

In addition to that, an average Indian is not at all interested in most of the topics we discuss on BRF anyway. An average Indian spends his/her free time watching TV/Movies, talking to friends/neighbors, perform religious activities, or worse worrying about how to earn his/her next meal. Hardly a miniscule number of Indians worry about the underlying political currents and their impact on national agenda for next 5-500 years, or Paki/Unkil perfidy, or PRC’s geopolitical ambitions, or perspectives on global-economic meltdown, or India’s partition, or Bharat’s distorted history. In my personal interactions, I realized that none of my family members or relatives or friends really care about any of the topics that we discuss on BRF, and yes I checked with them. I even posted an example where a friend of mine is a senior professor training top state/federal level bureaucrats and industrialists and YET expressed zero interest/knowledge on the underlying trends/events.

If we truly want to reflect the real India, we do not need a strategy or even military forum on BRF as 95+ percentage of Indians really do not care about these issues.

JMT.

[shiv]

In this forum???
Added later: There is already an Indian psyche thread in the Hijab forum IIRC

[archan]

What's the problem? you didn't have an issue posting in it when it was labeled as feedback thread and on this very forum?

[shiv]

What's the problem? you didn't have an issue posting in it when it was labeled as feedback thread and on this very forum?

It's alright sir. Just a question. Let it be on here sir. It's your wish. My apologies if my question sounded presumptuous.

[Abhi_G]

people unable to sense the uncontrolled raw power of an increasingly confident 80% majority who can ruthlessly steamroller any minority unless they collectively take a deep breath and remind themselves of their own values.

Shiv,

Note not blaming you in any sense, but the above statement in the long convoluted sentence points to something quite sinister. I have heard this point in communist and secularist rhetoric again and again..."majority Hindus will crush minorities and therefore no Hindu consolidation real or perceived should be allowed". For me I have heard this right from childhood....even from partition affected CPM leaders. Is this not blatant falsehood and subtle and subconscious terrorizing of minorities?

[ldev]

don't know if it is a forum disease, or an NRI disease - but India and Indians in India are a lot more confident of themselves, their past and their future than one would think if people derived information from this forum alone

Very accurate observation. As somebody who interacts both with RSS chiefs as well as Muslims on my visits to India, I realize that in the real India people of all sorts get along with each other. Yes there are occasional riots. But if you get your information from this forum alone, the impression one gets is that there is going to be a gigantic apocalpyse which will destroy India unless the faithful on the forum ride in to the rescue. The India I perceive is a confident India secure in its future and the disconnect I see between the real India and the forum is very wide.

[shiv]

Abhi "can crush, but will not crush" is power tempered by civilization
"Will crush" is fear mongering.

As long as Hindus fear the minorities they will be ready to crush them. On this forum I hear nothing but reasons for the 80% Hindu majority to fear the minorities.

I am unable to detect Hindu fear off the forum in India. If an 80% majority group walks around India telling a 20% minority group "We fear you" it won't be funny. People who are scared will get violent and the idea of provoking an 80% majority to violence because they are scared of the 20% can't be funny for the latter.

In my view it is not a good idea in India to go around telling Hindus "You should be scared of the minorities". Many will probably find it funny, but sooner or later someone will take it seriously and the outcome of a minority majority battle is easily predicted.

Even before independence, when the Muslim percentage in India was larger, Muslim leaders felt they were a minority and that they would be overwhelmed. The Ashraf among them (in typical Paki fashion) wanted to keep their privileges - either as a separate electorate or as a separate Pakistan. The fear of the majority Hindus was whipped up at least in part by the Brits.

The story of how Hindus were dominated for a millennium has also been pushed too far to humiliate Hindus and paint Hindus as a loser group lusting for revenge because they are former slaves who were nothing until civilizaton was brought to them by Islam. That was a great story to get, and keep Pakistan by whipping up Muslim pride and stoke Muslim fears. It is ironic to find the same Ashraf-Paki story being pushed by Hindus to whip up a grievance and tell the 80% that they must fear the 20%.

Indian minorities have more to fear from an angry fearful Hindu than a contented and confident Hindu. I see Hindus becoming confident, even if not contented, and unless fear of minorities is deliberately whipped up, there is only going to be easing of pressure on minorities. Hindus are by no means a defeated group lusting for revenge.

[RamaY]

don't know if it is a forum disease, or an NRI disease - but India and Indians in India are a lot more confident of themselves, their past and their future than one would think if people derived information from this forum alone

Very accurate observation. As somebody who interacts both with RSS chiefs as well as Muslims on my visits to India, I realize that in the real India people of all sorts get along with each other. Yes there are occasional riots. But if you get your information from this forum alone, the impression one gets is that there is going to be a gigantic apocalpyse which will destroy India unless the faithful on the forum ride in to the rescue. The India I perceive is a confident India secure in its future and the disconnect I see between the real India and the forum is very wide.

Two questions!

Since we already established that BRF has little/no correlation with Real India, does it really matter what BRF faithfuls think about India's future? If you are so confident of India's security why are you so alarmed about what BRF faithfuls think?

Do we expect BRF to be a simple web forum that mirrors real-India OR we (as group) want to understand and analyse the geopolitical currents, irrespective of real-india's opinion or choice?

[RamaY]

Abhi "can crush, but will not crush" is power tempered by civilization
"Will crush" is fear mongering.

As long as Hindus fear the minorities they will be ready to crush them. On this forum I hear nothing but reasons for the 80% Hindu majority to fear the minorities.

I am unable to detect Hindu fear off the forum in India. If an 80% majority group walks around India telling a 20% minority group "We fear you" it won't be funny. People who are scared will get violent and the idea of provoking an 80% majority to violence because they are scared of the 20% can't be funny for the latter.

In my view it is not a good idea in India to go around telling Hindus "You should be scared of the minorities". Many will probably find it funny, but sooner or later someone will take it seriously and the outcome of a minority majority battle is easily predicted.

Even before independence, when the Muslim percentage in India was larger, Muslim leaders felt they were a minority and that they would be overwhelmed. The Ashraf among them (in typical Paki fashion) wanted to keep their privileges - either as a separate electorate or as a separate Pakistan. The fear of the majority Hindus was whipped up at least in part by the Brits.

The story of how Hindus were dominated for a millennium has also been pushed too far to humiliate Hindus and paint Hindus as a loser group lusting for revenge because they are former slaves who were nothing until civilizaton was brought to them by Islam. That was a great story to get, and keep Pakistan by whipping up Muslim pride and stoke Muslim fears. It is ironic to find the same Ashraf-Paki story being pushed by Hindus to whip up a grievance and tell the 80% that they must fear the 20%.

Indian minorities have more to fear from an angry fearful Hindu than a contented and confident Hindu. I see Hindus becoming confident, even if not contented, and unless fear of minorities is deliberately whipped up, there only going to easing of pressure on minorities. Hindus are by no means a defeated group lusting for revenge.

These are valid points, but -

It assumes that Pakiness is a trait of Pakistani elite onlee. It can be observed in every society. The effort should be towards cleaning up the Pakiness in India, irrespective of one's belief system.

It assumes that Hindu resurgence is similar to Abrahamic-resurgence. This need not be true. People having this idea are projecting same thoughts as people who exaggerated post-Godhra riots. As far as I understood, the so called faithfuls were talking about the “Can crush” capability onlee. No one professed “Will/should crush” ideology.

Perhaps, it helps Hindu-majority in India to learn factual history of India, showing their true potential and value system. This might help removing the so-called Hindu slave-mentality, and TFTA-ness of other faiths.

While minority-interests are crucial, it is paramount that India’s majority group is confident of their values, history, culture, and capabilities. India as a whole cannot grow if its majority is chained to its fake history and distorted-culture.

[shiv]

India as a whole cannot grow if its majority is chained to its fake history

The fake history of 1000 years of defeat and subjugation?

[ShauryaT]

I am unable to detect Hindu fear off the forum in India.

The BJP's loosing momentum around these negative issues, is testament to this fact. Even if the fear does exist in pockets and was real in the past (pre-partition) with real consequences. It may still have real consequences in the future, if not managed. However in today's Hindu majority India, this fear is largely absent. It does not mean that some of the changes that the BJP and RSS want in the policies of the country are wrong. Just their method to go about it, to create political support has back fired.

[ShauryaT]

India as a whole cannot grow if its majority is chained to its fake history

The fake history of 1000 years of defeat and subjugation?

There is another side to it Shiv. The fake history of peaceful co-existence. India does need unchaining and only the truth shall set us free. The truth is complicated and will hurt many. But all have to feel this pain from the wounds of the past for only then will the wound get a chance to heal. I have not seen leadership that is ready yet to face this.

[ramana]

Sanku and RayC, I request both of you to observe restraint and a 'separation of forces agreement' for three to four monts. I dont want to lose either of you. I need your cooperation.
Thanks, ramana

[RayC]

No problem from my side so long as false accusation is not made for things I have not done.

Archan closed the thread and I had only one innocuous post that had nothing to engineer a closure.

You won't lose me. I will from now just watch and use the e mail!

[Prem]

I was under the impression that study of past in honest terms is to learn and chart the future course on right path. India bonded to and rooted in Indian soil will always be better off and good for Her inhabitants. One thing i dont understand is what "fear' is this which is being the central point of this piskological churning . The onlee distinct fear i sense is that lack of confidence in political leadership which indulge in all kind of appeasment even at the cost of national security interests. There are certain values and principles which cannot be compromised, the apprehension is GOI run by politicians of third kind dont exhbiit this trait. AFAIK,The assumed "fear' mentioned by Doc is non existant ( At least in all the folks i have known in my life), ground realties are indeed different. This whole exercise is a futile attempt to impregnet the barren babe and that too with Lahori habits.