Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) - Dec 30 - 2009

[ramana]

B. Raman on Aman ki Tamasha in R Srinivasan's blog

Source

[Rudradev]

Like it or not, Aman ki Tamasha IS Halal and Kosher in a free country. If we attack it we become "enemies of freedom" and Hindootva Fascists.

I'm saying: bypass that objective and head straight for the ultimate objective... territorial integrity of J&K as a part of India. Deploy there and pro-actively begin educating the people about that... so that the WKKs and their sponsors will be forestalled as they attempt the P.R. move from Aman ki Tamasha to "J&K Jaane Do".

[ramana]

Agreed. So what is the plan?

[svinayak]

I suspect at least some of this self criticism is because sections of the Hindu community believe the internal reform process is still not complete.

All reforms are from the colonial times done by colonial rulers or the DIE elite who do not believe in Hindu traditions. So lot of these will be reviewed.

The Hindu belief system as practiced today is very different from that a few centuries ago. The lines are still not clear.

Due to global modernism and changes in the last 100+ years all system have changed. But Hindu system has been a target of social engineering by the colonial rulers and western sociologists for the last 100 years.

[Jarita]

Actually Jaswant Singh is the safest of the lot. As long as question of Indias territorial integrity does not arise, let people talk peace.
It's the folks like Sachar who are dangerous. You can see their POV. This is what has likely tainted the Sachar report etc.

[Satya_anveshi]

Hakimullah meeting Baitullah? Who is going to entertain Pak Army? Boring days/weeks ahead I guess.

[Rudradev]

Agreed. So what is the plan?

I wrote a position paper on J&K after the 9/11 attacks. It needs updating of course, but once done, could be fashioned into a presentation and circulated.

What is astonishing is how many of the Indian undecided majority buy into the Pakistani (and Western) fictions regarding J&K... it was a "Hindu Maharaja choosing India over Pak against the wishes of his Muslim people", that "accession was supposed to be temporary", that "India has not respected the UN Resolutions" etc. etc.

So much of this junk has been re-fed to the Indian public via such "unbiased" outlets as the BBC, time and again, that even Indian media have picked it up and it has become part of the Indian public's consciousness about J&K. Many Indians actually think we don't have a justified claim on J&K and it is a small price to pay for "peace in the subcontinent".

The critical thing is to abolish these myths as widely as possible. WKKs/GOI are relying on the widespread existence of these myths, and on the ambivalence they produce in the undecided majority's opinion on J&K, to ram through a J&K concession on the emotionally-charged, sentimentally wrought momentum of "Aman Ki Tamasha".

So instead of attacking the idea of "Aman" directly, better to spend our energies dispelling the lies about J&K that many Indians have internalized.

[KLNMurthy]

Do not demonise Jinnah: Jaswant Singh

Describing Jinnah as a man of great determination, Singh said his transition from ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity to Quaid-e-Azam was fascinating.

"But before he could give shape to Pakistan of his conception he was out," Singh said.

The next two sentences in the above report are very revealing. Anyway, I will not go into them.

I am aware that we have beaten Jinnah to death in various threads. But, Jaswant Singh is proffering a new yardstick for measuring Jinnah, determination. If determination alone makes a man great, there are people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Zarqawi, Ayman al Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden and a multitude of others. The question is 'determination to do what'.

Again, it may be fascinating for him to see the transformation of Jinnah. However, his path of transformation was through hatred, whipping up unmanageable communal passion, massacre, unbridgeable division, enduring hostility, greed for power and a vision-less, unstable country. Such a transformation cannot be fascinating by any stretch of imagination. It can only be a nightmare.

Jinnah knew quite well two things: one, his end was near and two, there were no able hands within Pakistan to take the country forward. And yet, he went ahead with his plan to create a Pakistan. The terrorism problems that the world faces today can be traced directly and mainly to Jinnah.

In a different discussion, it was mentioned that the Indian WKK-class represented by Jaswant Singh et al has a feudal mindset. A corollary is that, these people have no moral foundation or compass in the way that would be recognizable to a modern educated civilized person who works for his daily bread in an ethical and professional way. This, I think is an explanation for the otherwise mysterious behavior of this class of people.

The antidote has to involve an articulation and assertion of the ethics and so to speak, dharma of the class whose energy powers India.

[negi]

So Jaswant Singh and Ramdas two ex service personnel join the uber gang of WKKs now how many ex TSPA/Pak faujis are on other side of this tamasha ( ah yes NPA Zia Mian is there) ? Btw I have same respect for Jinnah as I have for JS and RD. (hope this will make bleeding hearts sleep well in night)

[James B]

Agreed. So what is the plan?

I wrote a position paper on J&K after the 9/11 attacks. It needs updating of course, but once done, could be fashioned into a presentation and circulated.

Rudradev sir,
Why not put all the facts with references on J&K and TSPs perfidy in a format which can be chain mailed. I have always observed that with right amount of emotion and reasoning these chain mails spread like a wild-fire than op-eds, columns or news articles. What say?

[ramana]

KLN, one valuable tool to assess statements by people is to 'place the people' in order to understand the point of view. You do this by creating a time line of the person's known bio and significant events during the time. This enables to draw reasonable profile of the person and understand his POV. If this is not done all statements look superficially alike. Jaswant Singh by his ethos has a different point of view than say Kuldip Nayar, the prince of WKK. If you read Jaswant Singh's statement in totality it would be useful and not jsut the quoted part.

[Prem]

Actually Jaswant Singh is the safest of the lot. As long as question of Indias territorial integrity does not arise, let people talk peace.
It's the folks like Sachar who are dangerous. You can see their POV. This is what has likely tainted the Sachar report etc.

WKKs are known fools,the real danger is keeping Sacharites aastten ke Saanp whose ultimate aim to is to dilute national security insistiutions to the xtent that India will never be able to make effective response to its external and internal onslaught. Lets not get distracted by AKA .

[Rupesh]

OT: How could someone like Ramdas become CNS ?.
on 2nd thoughts if Morarji Desai/ Gujral could become PM, then Ramdas becomming CNS is no big deal... but still i hope such persons shouldn't be allowed to reach positions of power

[Prem]

OT: How could someone like Ramdas become CNS ?.
on 2nd thoughts if Morarji Desai/ Gujral could become PM, then Ramdas becomming CNS is no big deal... but still i hope such persons shouldn't be allowed to reach positions of power

At least we know now that why we were not able to nip Paki terrorism in bud and why we wasted 2 decade worth of time (75-95) when these worthies were in postions of power.

[KLNMurthy]

So Jaswant Singh and Ramdas two ex service personnel join the uber gang of WKKs now how many ex TSPA/Pak faujis are on other side of this tamasha ( ah yes NPA Zia Mian is there) ? Btw I have same respect for Jinnah as I have for JS and RD. (hope this will make bleeding hearts sleep well in night)

Ramdas, and another admiral Vishnu Bhagwat, have always been a part of it.

[ramana]

Adm Ramdas comes from a long line of sailors. he is related to first Indian Navy Chief Adm Katari. And as Navy Chief he rationalized the force structure and improved the procurement plans. So he did his job as a Naval person. Lets not bring that into the mix.

A lot of ex officials are on the Track II circuit.

[KLNMurthy]

KLN, one valuable tool to assess statements by people is to 'place the people' in order to understand the point of view. You do this by creating a time line of the person's known bio and significant events during the time. This enables to draw reasonable profile of the person and understand his POV. If this is not done all statements look superficially alike. Jaswant Singh by his ethos has a different point of view than say Kuldip Nayar, the prince of WKK. If you read Jaswant Singh's statement in totality it would be useful and not jsut the quoted part.

Agree with you; I don't mean to totally paint with a broad brush; my own struggle is in trying to find a general explanation of what seems to be counterintuitive choices by these people, while recognizing that there is a rich variety of specific reasons and histories which drive people.

About Jaswant Singh, I haven't read his current statement in full, but I have been following his pubic utterances since 1998 (the Kalia episode) and have come to the conclusion that there is no recognizable moral compass to the man. Not that this absence sets him apart from many of the others in the ruling classes, but we need to take note of this alienation from what should be an aspect of natural righteousness and justice--the urge to defend and protect one's own.

maybe BRF should have a thread for compiling dossiers on these individuals so that we can better understand what they are made of.?

[negi]

A person's antecedents don't contribute to his resume . Coming to Vishnu Bhagwat I remember he had written a oped/blog just a week before 26/11 urging PM MMS to cement ties with TSP and then did a down hill skiing and said something like 'now things have changed' I wonder if he was sleeping all this time.

[Rangudu]

Attention Ramana, kgoan, SSr and others

From this week's TFT (Such Gup), no link:

There was a flurry of activity following the Indian top fauji’s statement that the Indian Army was ready for a war with both Pakistan and China and that no warm-up was required. They could mobilise within hours and do a "cold start" as they call it. Our khakis, according to conventional wisdom, need two weeks to mobilise. Anyway, the Indian fauji’s pronouncements set off alarm bells here. Finally, the head honcho of the Indian foreign affairs establishment rang up our silver-haired min of the FO and told him that the fauji did not represent the Indian state’s strategic thinking and was simply answering a question off the top of his head.

[Amber G.]

Hakimullah Mehsud Survives Drone Attack

[pgbhat]

Attention Ramana, kgoan, SSr and others

From this week's TFT (Such Gup), no link:

There was a flurry of activity following the Indian top fauji’s statement that the Indian Army was ready for a war with both Pakistan and China and that no warm-up was required. They could mobilise within hours and do a "cold start" as they call it. Our khakis, according to conventional wisdom, need two weeks to mobilise. Anyway, the Indian fauji’s pronouncements set off alarm bells here. Finally, the head honcho of the Indian foreign affairs establishment rang up our silver-haired min of the FO and told him that the fauji did not represent the Indian state’s strategic thinking and was simply answering a question off the top of his head.

WTF? Bad Cop, Good Cop. why?

[Gagan]

The time when the BJP was in power in India, we saw the outside powers keeping India busy, with ratcheting up the rhetoric and numerous terrorist attacks.
Those days the likes of BBC were on overdrive to paint the government as "Right wing" and "hindu" etc. Even Indian media was paid money to paint them in a negative light.

Tehelka original scandal on the BJP / NDA was supposed to have received funding from a saudi gentleman.

I think that when a government is uncompromising in its nationalist agendas, all foreign powers get 'smelled by a snake' and put their intel agencies on overdrive to try and have a regime change.

The congress has lasted in power so long, because at some level they understand the principle of 'you win some and you compromise on most'.

I have no problems with this as long as the things we will NEVER compromise on is clearly defined and adhered to. Problem is that our bottom line 'lakshman rekhas' have not been defined.

On kashmir, one would think that the Parliament resolution which stated that 'the state of jammu and kashmir is an integral part of india' would have settled the issue. We immediately saw the pakistanis go into over drive and massa bearing down on GoI to somehow try to remove the 'Abhinna ang' from the statement.

On the Nuclear doctrine issue, the doctrine attempts to draw a lakshman rekha on a nuclear attack on india and its forces, and yet our forces and strategists admit that the political end of the chain of command would be the weakest link in the implementation of that doctrine should an attack happen.

So these things will go on. But the Lakshman Rekhas need to be clearly defined.

[svinayak]

at some level they understand the principle of 'you win some and you compromise on most'.

I have no problems with this as long as the things we will NEVER compromise on is clearly defined and adhered to. Problem is that our bottom line 'lakshman rekhas' have not been defined.

Nobody compromises with foriegners. Indians who do are the only ones who does this. Unable to understand socialism, global leftist movement and other assorted global movements paid by the west these Indians without any sense have compromised on everything in the last 50 years. Indian Media, education, security, politics has been compromised by this generation.

[R_Kumar]

Congress dismisses Thackrey for severing cricketing ties with Australia(from Hindu)
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/article80 ... epage=true

Will this set precedence for starting cricket with TSP?

So he does think about Indian. So you care about Indian outside India but beat them up on the street under day light inside India !
This is Thackrey's (Bal or Raj) mantra.

[CRamS]

Guys, let me give you my take on the frustrations of a nationalist like me. For any country to wage war against another people, the first & foremost condition is the country's population must have something in between apathy and contempt against the said people. It may be unrelated, bear with me for a second, but recall 'liberal' Nevada Senator Harry Reid's views on Obama; saying he is acceptable to American people because he is 'light-skinned' and doesn't have a typical black accent. He was basically saying the truth, namely, whites have at best apathy towards blacks, provided they are 'good' like Obama, or else utter disdain. Now, in the same vein, think about the contempt Americans have for Muslims and Arabs. My point is that with a general population like that, it would be easy for US govt to take an ultra nationalist line and draw a clear line between "us" and "them" (notwitstadning the comic 'liberal' Vs 'conservative' tamasha when it comes to war on terror; both sides are hyper nationalist, the endless nit-picking is over minute nuances exaggarated and blown out of proportion ). Can you imagine India wanting to strip search every Paki who enters India? MMS was outraged that madam Asma Jehangir was asked some questions by security personnel.

In India's case, the situation is complex. As Shiv, Gagan, Rudra etc have pointed out, majority, lets say 80% are busy, illiterate, and could care two hoots beyond roti, kapada, makaan, caste, mosque, temple whatever. Of the remaining, some of the WKK types feel they have more in common with TSP TFTA types than they have with SDREs. Others, including secularists, feminists, etc are western wannabes for whom India is their punching bag to demonsrtae their enlightneede credentials to the masters in Washington, London, and Paris. Finally, you couple all this with India's lack of overwhelming militray might over TSP, is it any wonder then that Mumbai has all but evaporated, and calls for making love to TSP are getting shriller by the day? And is it any surprise that overwheming silnet majority go along with Aman ki Tamasha?

[R_Kumar]

The statements in the Declaration at the just concluded India-Pakistan Peace Conference {Jan 10-12, 2010, New Delhi}

If some one is honestly trying to improve the relation between India and Pakistan then he or she doesn't need to make things complicated. Why not treat these two countries as typical neighbors who don't trust each other.

To start with why not ask these two neighbors to follow two things.

- Don't talk to each other at all
- Don't think about each other good or bad.

If this can be done for a prolong period then becoming good neighbors shouldn't be a problem.

[shravan]

Manmohan Singh opens door to Pakistan

[ramana]

Until WWI when US power grew quite large, the fear of hostilities with Mexico were ever present in those days. And even with Canada.

One lesson from this example is India has to grow more powerful. Unfortunately Indian elite wants India to adopt policies without the requiste resources. hence its seen as a weakness by the neighbor.

For example had US offered NAFTA before WWI it would have been laughed at. Same as SAARC before dominance is achieved.

[Gagan]

If you mean militarily more powerful, one has to remember that there are well entrenched viewpoints within India's power elite that have for 60 odd years and in the forseeable future have and will keep military development retarded, incomplete and delayed.

The reasons are internal and external.

Internally the political elite wants to be the ultimate arbitar of national power. They want to prevent the military from being independent to an extent that they will usurp power. While this intention is noble, look at how this translates into the military being somewhat ill equipped.

There is a possibility that the delays in military modernization are not the result of bureaucracy and incompetence alone.

It is also true, that if the military had been powerful enough so as to make short work of the pakistani armed forces, India would have gone into a war after 26/11 or after the parliament attack or on a dozen occasions before this. But this would have prevented the other attacks on India.

The 3.5 friends of pakistan would also have seen the futility of putting all their eggs in the pakistani basket, and surely more positive interaction with India would have resulted at a much earlier stage.

So ultimately it is a double edged sword. The ultimate goal is to make the nation economically, politically, militarily and morally strong.

[Sridhar]

Just curious, who are the 3.5 friends of TSP being repeatedly referred to? A search of the previous posts did not particularly enlighten me. Thanks!

[munna]

Just curious, who are the 3.5 friends of TSP being repeatedly referred to? A search of the previous posts did not particularly enlighten me. Thanks!

(1) USA
(2) UK
(3) China
(1/2) Japan

[Sridhar]

Thanks!

[Rudradev]

Attention Ramana, kgoan, SSr and others

From this week's TFT (Such Gup), no link:

There was a flurry of activity following the Indian top fauji’s statement that the Indian Army was ready for a war with both Pakistan and China and that no warm-up was required. They could mobilise within hours and do a "cold start" as they call it. Our khakis, according to conventional wisdom, need two weeks to mobilise. Anyway, the Indian fauji’s pronouncements set off alarm bells here. Finally, the head honcho of the Indian foreign affairs establishment rang up our silver-haired min of the FO and told him that the fauji did not represent the Indian state’s strategic thinking and was simply answering a question off the top of his head.

Any connection to this?

Gen Kapoor’s statement doesn’t reflect India’s national policy’
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg1_2


ISLAMABAD: Recent statements by the Indian Army chief do not reflect New Delhi’s national policy, US special envoy Richard Holbrooke said on Wednesday. “What [Indian Army chief] General Kapoor said does not reflect the Indian national policy,” said Holbrooke – suggesting that it was the Indian Army chief’s personal opinion. Talking to a group of editors and columnists, the US special representative said his country would not broker relations between Pakistan and India. “It is for Pakistan and India to engage in a process of dialogue, and we support it,” he said. He acknowledged that Pakistan’s security concerns were legitimate.

I wonder who made a statement circumscribing India's "national policy" first: "Head Honcho of India's foreign affairs establishment" in private (if at all), or Holbrooke in public.

[ramana]

Doesnt matter now.

Meanwhile, Pakistan must talk to Taliban:Imran Khan

[anishns]

munnabhai...IMVHO the list is more like:

Saudi Arabia (1)
China (1)
UK (½)
US (½)
Japan/Germany/Denmark/Canada (½)

The bottom of the list can be gradually migrated to the India camp the more India grow economically...

Just curious, who are the 3.5 friends of TSP being repeatedly referred to? A search of the previous posts did not particularly enlighten me. Thanks!

(1) USA
(2) UK
(3) China
(1/2) Japan

[Jarita]

Manmohan Singh opens door to Pakistan

What is it abt our leaders that reduce us to Bhikari status, time and time again?

[vavinash]

Baitullah has escaped. Porkis better start preparing for next round of explsive innings from Baitullah and TTP.

[Gagan]

Possibilities:
1. Desperate attempt by india to gain some traction in Pakistan to forestall the next terror attack. Some leverage in pakistan I assume has shown dividends in the past as opposed to no leverage due to no talks.
2. Gen kapoor has bared the stick, now MMS can display the carrot. (That old line about India willing to negotiate should not be viewed as India's weakness was getting old - so old wine in a new bottle onlee)
Tag team WWF in play here.

[animesharma]

Pardon if its been posted before..
Balochistan vs kashmir
.

However, after the British departed, Pakistan army moved in and the Baloch territories were merged with Pakistan. Who ratified the merger? Well that honour went to the Quetta municipality, a body dominated by non-Baloch settlers. Since then, violence has erupted in Balochistan five times – 1948, 1958, 1963-64, 1973-77 and again now with the Khans of Kalat again in the forefront.

Nonetheless, the Indian state is providing security cover to the Hurriyat leaders notably its chief Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, who often shuttles between Srinagar and Islamabad.
.
In Sharp Contrast the popular Baloch leader, Nawab Akbar Khan Bugti was killed when the army blew up a cave he was hiding in on August 26, 2006. A former Governor and former chief minister he was highly respected not only in Balochistan but across the entire country. Not surprisingly, the Pakistan media has dubbed the ‘targetted’ killing as the biggest military blunder after the hanging of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto.

Balochistan still lacks the basic services that most consider human rights. It is rich in natural gas yet only 6% of the Baluch have gas connections, less than half the children get any education, and only 2% of the population has clean water. Women’s literacy in the region stands at just 7 per cent, the lowest in Pakistan.

What a study in contrast Kashmir development story makes? Despite the best efforts of the militants, the demographic identity of the population is being scrupulously preserved and more per capita central aid is being poured into the state than in any other Indian state. The state’s population is less than one percent of India. Yet it receives 2.7 per cent of national developmental outlay. The allocation per head thus works out to Rs. 1122 in its case. This is much higher than the average for all other states which is below Rs. 300. Another index of growth, people below poverty line hovers around 3.7 per cent mark against the national average of 26 per cent. Literacy rate stands at 55.5 per cent as compared to all India literacy rate of 64.8 per cent.

Human Rights

Upholding human rights in any disturbed area is a tough job. The security forces need to be sensitized. Anyone found violating the HR code should be given exemplary punishment. Indian army knows first hand there is no substitute to transparency and the only way to win over people’s love is to put in place a credible mechanism . This approach is best illustrated by the action taken against a Major who was alleged to have committed a rape in Handwara. Suspension, court martial and summary dismissal from service followed in that quick order though the charge of rape could not be established against Major on the basis of forensic evidence. Entering at night into a house where he was accused of committing the crime was considered as sufficient ground to punish him.

But in Balochistan, a Pakistan army Major went scott free even after raping a lady doctor on night duty at the Sui Gas Hospital at Quetta. No police case. No inquiry. The lady was from a respectable family and luckily for her, her husband stood by her at the traumatic moment and both migrated first to London and then to Canada with the help of friends and human rights groups to lead a new life. Yet they faced the taunt from their rulers, “Get raped, get money and get a visa to Canada”.

[sanjaykumar]

What is it abt our leaders that reduce us to Bhikari status, time and time again?


Can you explain this statement or is it meant to be rhetorical, signifying nothing?