Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

[Gaur]

^^
Sir, what is the difference b/n the two? Do both the terms not mean the same thing, ie; conducting air strike on the battlefield to help the land forces?

[RayC]

First, by attacking enemy ground forces which are actually engaged in combat with friendly ground forces. This activity is known as Battlefield Air Strike (BAS).

Second, by attacking enemy forces which may be closing to join the ground battle in the immediate future. These air attacks would take place a relatively short distance behind the battle area, perhaps
up to 50 to 100 kilometres and would seek to have an indirect but speedy impact on the battle itself. These operations are known as Battlefield Air Interdiction, or BAI.

Third, a traditional use of offensive air operations is the role of deeper interdiction, whereby reinforcement and resupply of the battle area is denied by deep-ranging attacks on reinforcement routes and resupply areas up to several hundred kilometers behind the front line. All three activities are designed to influence one particular battle area, or theatre of operations, and are usually cited as examples of the tactical use of air power. Although target arrays may be similar, whether engaged in combat, preparing to enter it or still assembling and moving from the rear, the operational environment of each provides very different challenges and, not surprisingly, modern technology has contributed several different options for their resolution.

[manjgu]

and then there is strategic use of air power??... like bombing of industries, oil fields( or carrying N weapons) .

[RayC]

Strategic air operations may be defined as the use of aircraft to influence the eventual outcome of military operations and political events. Such operations contribute directly to the achievement of the aim at strategic levels.

Strategic air operations include all the classical roles of airpowerstrike (nuclear or conventional), airlift and reconnaissance. In fact, today, aerial systems with their enhanced capability in terms of power and accuracy make it possible to achieve strategic objectives quickly. The destructive power of a nuclear first strike, for example, may cause the total collapse of a nation. Alternatively, the muse of conventional weapons, with timely and surgical accuracy, could contribute directly to the overall strategic aim.

[Gaur]

^^
Sir, thanks for the explanation.

[RayC]

In modern times, the meaning of the term strategy has broadened and has led in part to a confusion of the term and to a loss of substance of its content. With increasing frequency, such terms as economic strategy, sales strategy, and election strategy are being used. Protecting oneself against illness may even be called good strategy. Investment consultants, insurance companies, industrial firms, and football coaches may be said to employ this or that strategy.

With societal development, the meaning of strategy has thus changed, particularly in Western civilization. Originally understood mainly in the sense of military strategy or national strategy, the term has found broad application in political, economic, and social spheres.


Use of the Term

Used alone, the term strategy has a general meaning: the design and implementation of a concept for the co-ordinated employment of resources to attain certain objectives. Only when modified by an adjective does the term assume a specific meaning. Some examples include: -

(a) Grand Strategy. Designed to attain political objectives, including the assurance of external security and social development.

(b) Security Policy Strategy. Designed to attain security objectives.

(b) Foreign Policy Strategy. Designed to influence foreign states or international organizations in pursuit of foreign policy objectives.

(c) Economic Strategy. Designed to attain economic objectives.

(d) Military Strategy. Designed to attain, through the use of military assets, military and security objectives.

According to the Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms (U.S. Department of defense 1987) strategy is “the art and science of developing and using political, economic, psychological, and military forces as necessary during peace and war, to afford the maximum support to policies, in order to increase the probabilities and favourable consequences of victory and to lessen the chances of defeat.”

In this definition it becomes clear that In this definition it becomes clear that strategy, which in the U.S. tradition has come to mean military strategy, has been broadened to mean a more comprehensive national strategy utilizing all the resources of the country in order to assure security and protect the national interests.

[Tanaji]

RayC,

OT: I am glad you are still around FWIW.

[RayC]

RayC,

OT: I am glad you are still around FWIW.

OT again.

I don't mix business with pleasure.

I take life as it comes.

And have no remorse or vindictiveness. I have said what I had to say. And life moves on!

[Satya_anveshi]

(OT) I am real glad to see RayC saab around. In the fights of heavyweights the sure losers are people like us - learners. Let the lessons keep coming.

[Mayuresh]

The newbie is back again!

Is it just me or is China manufacturing the F-22P Frigates for TSP at a really fast rate?
Zulfiqar: Laid down in Oct2006, Launched in Apr2008, Commissioned in Sep2009!
Samsher: Laid down in Jul2007, Launched in Oct2008, Commissioned in Dec2009!
Saif: Laid down in Nov2008, Launched in May2009!

Contrast that with our progress on the Shivalik class, or for that matter, Russia's progress on the Talwar class. The armaments in each seem comparable.

I agree that the tonnage is higher in the Indian frigates. But I am sure that tonnage should not be directly proportional to build time rather, build time should increase lower proportionally as compared to increase in tonnage.

[Rahul M]

The newbie is back again!

Is it just me or is China manufacturing the F-22P Frigates for TSP at a really fast rate?
Zulfiqar: Laid down in Oct2006, Launched in Apr2008, Commissioned in Sep2009!
Samsher: Laid down in Jul2007, Launched in Oct2008, Commissioned in Dec2009!
Saif: Laid down in Nov2008, Launched in May2009!

Contrast that with our progress on the Shivalik class, or for that matter, Russia's progress on the Talwar class. The armaments in each seem comparable.

I agree that the tonnage is higher in the Indian frigates. But I am sure that tonnage should not be directly proportional to build time rather, build time should increase lower proportionally as compared to increase in tonnage.

so a speed boat should take 15 years to build and a carrier only one ?
a larger warship is not just a large empty shell, it is filled with wiring, optical fibres, air supply vents, plumbing and so on. those things take their own time to be fitted and I'm not even talking of the 'main' systems on an warship, weapons, sensors, C4I.

yes, chinese yards are pretty quick, much quicker than ours. but to get a realistic comparison you need to compare with a boat of similar tonnage AND similar technology level. you can't compare the shivalik, a 5000 t boat with one 60% its tonnage. the F-22p itself is of a similar tech level as the IN's P-16A boats.

to churn out something like the F-22p our yards would have taken 4 years, probably a little more. one advantage in terms of build time chinese yards have when it comes to warships is they fit in chinese made weapons systems and sensors, these are all made to a standard well known to these ship-builders and the ships and the systems are designed for each other. the downside being that chinese systems don't always give the best of performances.
in our case, the ship builders have to incorporate a maddening mix of Indian, russian and western weapons and sensors, all built to different standards and few made with fitment in an Indian ship in mind. oftentimes the supply at their end is also held up by various reasons (like the US govt suddenly stopping GE in LM2500 integration) adding serious delays to the program.
the upside to this approach is IN gets optimum performance at affordable prices, if a little late.

[Mayuresh]

build time should increase lower proportionally as compared to increase in tonnage.

so a speed boat should take 15 years to build and a carrier only one ?

Looks like you misunderstood me. Or probably, I have not worded it right.

I said Increase lower proportionally and not decrease proportionally. So, if a warship of 1000 tonnes takes a year to build, a warship of 5000 tonnes should take lower than 5 years, probably 3 years to build. So the % increase in time taken to build is lower than the %increase in tonnage

[Rahul M]

okay, I did get you wrong.
even then, I don't think time taken/ton vs ton curve would nosedive (which is what you said) but that it would taper off to approximately constant value.

Code: Select all

            ^
            |        ___________
            |      /
days/ton    |    /
            |  /
            |/__________________
                   ---------->
                   tonnage

[Mayuresh]

okay, I did get you wrong.
even then, I don't think time taken/ton vs ton curve would nosedive (which is what you said) but that it would taper off to approximately constant value.

Code: Select all

            ^
            |        ___________
            |      /
days/ton    |    /
            |  /
            |/__________________
                   ---------->
                   tonnage

Should the curve you show above not be something like the one below?

Code: Select all

            ^
            | \       
            |   \    
days/ton    |    \
            |     \  ___________
            |__________________
                   ---------->
                   tonnage

[Carl_T]

Carl this is a very interesting question and I believe the answer is less simple than one would think.

Thanks for the info.

Question: I've heard about the shortage of officers in the military, why is it not possible to increase the number of enlisted personnel being sent to OCS in order to create officers?

[Gagan]

Why is the magazine horizontal instead of vertical?

[atreya]

The magazine is horizontal, and there is something black-coloured in place of the magazine! What may that be?

[Gagan]

Is that a holder for the second magazine? The first magazine is in place in the gun.

[atreya]

Seems so. Funny way to hold the second magazine. Horizontally!!

[atreya]

Moderators, can I start a thread to track and discuss errors shown in police and army movies? I find that movies are the primary mode of information for the general public on the workings of our defence forces. Bollywood war movies are fraught with all kind of inconsistencies and errors.

[Shameek]

Is that a holder for the second magazine? The first magazine is in place in the gun.

It is a horizontal magazine holder. Check the link for details and to buy one.

Clicky

[abhishekm]

Moderators, can I start a thread to track and discuss errors shown in police and army movies? I find that movies are the primary mode of information for the general public on the workings of our defence forces. Bollywood war movies are fraught with all kind of inconsistencies and errors.

Excellent idea! Why not start with the Amitabh Bachchan disaster "Major Saab" which showed the Big B sporting a beard and wearing inappropriate uniforms? Also, who can forget the pathetic manner in which the NDA was depicted in that movie (I think they showed dormitory accommodation for cadets and reduced discipline to a joke by portraying Ajay Devgan as a rule breaking casanova!). And to think that the NDA actually gave permission to shoot the film there...

[atreya]

Thanks for the support, abhishekm! I have noticed some more glaring mistakes in other movies , but I'll wait for permission from moderators, rather than starting one enthusiastically, only for it to be IB4TL'd in less than day. Has happened with me before

[shiv]

Military booboos of Bollywood would be a great thread. But I think that if anyone decides to start such a thread, please write a short article with a list of 4-5 movies and the errors in those movies rather than just staring a topic and say "Let's talk about errors in movies"

[Jagan]

Military booboos of Bollywood would be a great thread. But I think that if anyone decides to start such a thread, please write a short article with a list of 4-5 movies and the errors in those movies rather than just staring a topic and say "Let's talk about errors in movies"

that would be a fun thread . if we can have tracking errors in defence reporting, why not in movies? besides, bollywood might bring a more larger audience.

[andy B]

Why is the magazine horizontal instead of vertical?

U were able to look at the magazine and the gun ...I didnt even notice the gun till like..well u know

[shiv]

U were able to look at the magazine and the gun ...I didnt even notice the gun till like..well u know

You MCP you Maybe the other forumite is a woman no?

[atreya]

@ Jagan sir and shiv sir
Thread created, and trash can archived too!

[Jagan]

@ Jagan sir and shiv sir
Thread created, and trash can archived too!

resurrected

[Dmurphy]

Govt tightens security for 10 scientists facing terror threat

[VijayKumarSinha]

Hello,

Is there any word on the Indian armed forces participation in the earthquake relief effort for Haiti?

Thank You

[Gagan]

I just a few pages of this thread.

Amazing info by Ray C saar. The type of info and knowledge that one wishes to get from a panwallah.

Ray C saar please keep up the good work in bringing the aam junta up to speed on mil tactics and maneuvers.

Are the magazines of the assault and other rifles preloaded from the factory or are individual units responsible for loading the bullets in?

Is the process manual or is there machinery involved in loading magazines?

How frequently are the armed forces rifles cleaned / taken in for servicing / recalibrated? Are there better systems abroad than the ones used by the Indian armed forces?

[RayC]

Weapons are cleaned on the Adm Day i.e. Saturday.

The unit has Unit Armourers and in case of defects, they carry out unit repairs and for other repairs, it is sent to the workshop, which is at the Div level.

There is an annual Inspection of weapons and the state of the weapon is noted and necessary action taken.

[ArmenT]

Is the process manual or is there machinery involved in loading magazines?

http://www.maglula.com/
http://maglula.tripod.com/uplula.htm <-- see vid at the bottom of the page for demo
http://maglula.tripod.com/Benchloader.htm is the big kahuna that they offer.

[RayC]

Got this on the e-mail

Any one more secular than the Indian
army?
http://wordsfromsoul.blogspot.com

As a serving army officer, I never stop marvelling at the
gullibility of our countrymen to be provoked with alacrity into virulence in the
name of religion. I have never heard the word 'secular'
during all my service -- and yet, the simple things that are done simply in the
army make it appear like an island of sanity in a sea of
hatred.

In the army, each officer identifies with the
religion of his troops. In regiments where the soldiers are from more
than one religion, the officers -- and indeed all jawans
attend the weekly religious prayers of all the faiths. How many times
have I trooped out of the battalion mandir and, having worn my shoes, entered
the battalion church next door? A few years ago it all
became simpler -- mandirs,
masjids, gurudwars and churches began to share premises all over the
army. It saved us the walk.
----------------------------------
Perhaps it is so because the army genuinely believes
in two central 'truths' -- oneness of god and victory in
operations. Both are so sacred we cannot nitpick and question the
basics.

In fact, sometimes the army mixes up the two! On a visit to the holy cave
at Amarnath a few years ago I saw a plaque mounted on the side of the hill by a
battalion that had once guarded the annual Yatra. It said, 'Best wishes from -....- battalion. Deployed for Operation
Amarnath.
-------------------------
On another instance, I remember a commanding officer
ordered the battalion maulaviji to conduct the proceedings of Janamashtmi
prayers because the panditji had to proceed on leave on compassionate grounds.
No eyebrows were raised. It was the most rousing and best-prepared
sermon on Lord Krishna I have ever had the pleasure of listening to.
-----------------------
On the Line of Control, a company of Khemkhani Muslim soldiers replaced a
Dogra battalion. Over the next few days, the post was shelled heavily by
Pakistanis, and there were a few non-fatal casualties.

One day, the junior commissioned officer of the company, Subedar Sarwar Khan
walked up to the company commander Major Sharma and said, "Sahib, ever since the
Dogras left, the mandir has been shut. Why don't you open it once every evening
and do aarti? Why are we displeasing the gods?"

Major Sharma shamefacedly confessed he did not know all the words of the
aarti. Subedar
Sarwar Khan went away and that night, huddled over the radio set under a
weak lantern light, painstakingly took down the words of the aarti from the post
of another battalion!
-----------------------
How many of us know that along the entire border
with Pakistan, our troops abstain from alcohol
and non-vegetarian food on all Thursdays? The reason: It is called the Peer day
-- essentially a day of religious significance for the Muslims.
-------------------------
In 1984, after Operation Bluestar there was anguish in the Sikh community
over the desecration of the holiest of their shrines. Some of this anger and
hurt was visible in the army too.

I remember the first Sikh festival days after the event -- the number of
army personnel of every religious denomination that thronged the regimental
gurudwara of the nearest Sikh battalion was the largest I had seen. I distinctly
remember each officer and soldier who put his forehead to the ground to pay
obeisance appeared to linger just a wee bit longer than usual. Was I imagining
this? I do not think so. There was that empathy and caring implicit in the quality of the
gesture that appeared to say, "You are hurt and we all
understand."
------------------------
We were deployed on the Line of Control those days. Soon after the news of
disaffection among a small section of Sikh troops was broadcast on the BBC,
Pakistani troops deployed opposite the Sikh battalion
yelled across to express their 'solidarity' with the Sikhs.

The Sikh havildar shouted back that the Pakistanis
had better not harbour any wrong notions. "If you dare move towards this post,
we will mow you down."
-------------------------------
Finally, a real - and true- gem.

Two boys of a Sikh regiment battalion were overheard discussing this a day
before Christmas.

"Why are we having a holiday tomorrow?" asked Sepoy Karnail Singh.

"It is Christmas," replied the wiser Naik Gurmeet Singh.

"But what is Christmas?"

"Christmas," replied Naik Singh, with his eyes half shut in
reverence and hands in a spontaneous prayer-clasp, "is the guruparb of the Christians."



>

>
>
>--
>archu...........

I hope this allows people to understand the IA mindset! I hope those who call me 'extra secular' will understand why I cannot be narrowminded!

[pmund]

Touching and soul-stirring. How I wish everyone would understand how simple things are.

[Mayuresh]

Newbie question:

I was on a trip to mathura and saw the INSAS rifle closely with the personnel deployed for security in the Krishna Janmasthan Temple. Why is the INSAS rifle painted in the colour scheme of black and light brown, with the butt and the part which rests on the the left hand while firing, both are painted light brown. So is the manual gas cut-off (I am guessing it is the gas cut-off that protrudes on the left of the gun, and is pointed back). It looks hidieous and serves no apparent purpose (does not even come close to camoflage). The paint job is clearly visible and not done with finesse; looks like the OFB wanted to give the rifle a wooden look, like the rifles of the era gone by. Most of the magazines were transparent, made of polymer and the rounds could be clearly seen, however, some of the magazines too were painted light brown! Could anyone tell me why we paint some part of the rifle with that colour

[nachiket]

Newbie question:

I was on a trip to mathura and saw the INSAS rifle closely with the personnel deployed for security in the Krishna Janmasthan Temple. Why is the INSAS rifle painted in the colour scheme of black and light brown, with the butt and the part which rests on the the left hand while firing, both are painted light brown. So is the manual gas cut-off (I am guessing it is the gas cut-off that protrudes on the left of the gun, and is pointed back). It looks hidieous and serves no apparent purpose (does not even come close to camoflage). The paint job is clearly visible and not done with finesse; looks like the OFB wanted to give the rifle a wooden look, like the rifles of the era gone by. Most of the magazines were transparent, made of polymer and the rounds could be clearly seen, however, some of the magazines too were painted light brown! Could anyone tell me why we paint some part of the rifle with that colour

People have been searching for the answer for years. One explanation is that the black furniture tends to heat up more quickly in hot desert conditions, so they needed a lighter color.

[Mayuresh]

People have been searching for the answer for years. One explanation is that the black furniture tends to heat up more quickly in hot desert conditions, so they needed a lighter color.

They do not need to paint the wooden or polymer stock of the rifle, the natural color would have been reflective enough not to get heated as much as the metal parts. I just think some MoD babu came up with this idea in the name of aesthetics

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Hi,

I am researching a story on sniper teams. What would be a good source of information to start with for:
1) Understanding sniper tactics when operating in hostile teritory
2) Problems faced in situations with equipment and personnel when operating in an extremely primitive environment without hope for external support in a hot and dusty condition where information about terrain, navigation is not available.

Regards
MK