Know Your India

[Raja Bose]

1) In India they do teach first aid in High school syllabus since ages. But to a certain level. I still remember tourniquets,

..which is wrong and must not be used. And artificial respiration is unnecessary, only cardiac massage suffices. So what is taught is outdated.

Fear of gristle and blood does not exist for some people. Ignorance does for most.

shiv saar, Why must tourniquet not be used in this situation (like the TN cop)? - What should be the correct approach then, before moving the victim to hospital?

[SwamyG]

Some stats about India, from the book "Riding the Indian Tiger - Understanding India - the World's fastest growing market'

1.World's largest truck manufacturer.
2.World's largest manufacturer of motorcycles
3.3rd largest stock exchange in terms of volume.
4.2nd largest producer of sugarcane.
5.3rd largest producer of cotton.
6.Largest producer of milk and fruits.
7.5th largest coal reserves.
8.3rd largest bauxite reserves.
9.4th largest steel producer.
10.6th largest aluminum producer.
11.3rd largest producer of CDs and DVDs.
12.Indians purchase 6 million cell phones per month.
13.Has 40 million Internet users (expected to climb to 200 million by 2015)
14.700 million own property.
15. 100 million households have bank accounts.
16. 80 million hold secondary degress.
17. Largest number of engineering graduates in the World.

[hnair]

1) In India they do teach first aid in High school syllabus since ages. But to a certain level. I still remember tourniquets,

..which is wrong and must not be used. And artificial respiration is unnecessary, only cardiac massage suffices. So what is taught is outdated.

And where does the oxygen for preventing brain damage comes from ?

American Heart Association Guideline's relevant section (Link) :

# Lay rescuers should immediately begin cycles of chest compressions and ventilations after delivering 2 rescue breaths for an unresponsive victim. Lay rescuers are not taught to assess for pulse or signs of circulation for an unresponsive victim.
# Lay rescuers will not be taught to provide rescue breathing without chest compressions.

Rescue breathing (artificial respiration) seems to be still relevant in addition to chest compressions (cardiac massage)

A big difference is the awareness of HIV, Hep A and Herpes transmission to the CPR provider during artificial breathing. I took a certification conducted by American Red Cross association in CPR sometime in the 90s and recently in 2008 after the revised CPR guidelines came out in 2005. A key thing they talked about is how to prevent victim's involuntary vomit(and saliva/mucous) from going into one's mouth by using a CPR Breathing Barrier*

The American CPR instructors talk about NOT giving respiration ONLY when you dont have a barrier and you feel your health is at risk from unknown infections from an unknown person. Not because "artificial respiration is unnecessary, only cardiac massage suffices". In case of reluctance, they say just give chest compressions and wait for Em Response.

So maybe you are right, "some textbooks" are indeed outdated. But not necessarily Indian school textbooks, which again till recently, did not talk about CPR, but general first aid (like keeping limbs higher than head for bleeding or fainting etc), artificial respiration etc. And my observation is from early 80s high school textbooks.

Fear of gristle and blood does not exist for some people. Ignorance does for most.

If you say so

________________________
*CPR Breathing Barrier is basically a simple device - a small mouthpiece tube with a one way valve and surrounded by a plastic sheet flange. The one-way valve prevents vomit from getting into the providers mouth and flange prevents splashing in the providers face. Even with this the upheaval can be huge and I heard it can get messy.

[JwalaMukhi]

CPR is good when facilities and other paraphernalia is around. Else, the success rate is depressingly low (1% to 6%). CPR by aam admi is nearly useless, for the amount of training that the aam admi has to undergo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiopulm ... uscitation
Other first aids that yield higher success rate, along with simplicity for the aam admi should be the focus. Some of the medical emergencies that can be useful in Indian situations.
1) Bleeding
2) Choking
3) fractures
4) drowning
5) burns
6) snake bites

[Jagan]

And artificial respiration is unnecessary, only cardiac massage suffices. So what is taught is outdated.

Saw ths on CNN as well - where they said, forget about mouth to mouth - just focus on the chest massage. the human body has ten minutes of oxygen before that brain damage thing sets in.

In the TN Cop death episode, I found the role of the collector most dissappointing. for heavens sake, he is supposed to be the best of the brightest - IAS and all.. He is supposed to have the initiative to give orders - put him in a car and go to the nearest medical outpost... how difficult was it?

[Surya]

Katare put it correctly - thats what felt bad about it. No one to comfort him.

The thing that bothered me mostly was not a soul tried to comfort him - as he valiantly struggled .

At least one guy gave him water (almost trying to keep a distance).

I admit one is terrified of the site of gory but once you the shock is over

In 1990 a mentally ill guy fell from the 4th floor of our neighbouring building. As he lay twitching and asking for water (it seems as you are dying there is an intense buring thirst) no one wnet near him because of police lafda. My 65 yr old grandmother - went to him, sat next to him and gave him water and waited till the cops again. He died shortly and the cops took my grandmother by jeep for the statement and dropped her back.

I think that was the minimum one should have done - just given comfort to him.

[brihaspati]

The severed arteries have to be pressed at the point of severance to close them off. In a remote/mountain area situation I have carried out such an emergency step until the doctor arrived from base camp. torniquets on the limb may not be effective, yes, but it all depends on the surface/nature of the wound. Sometimes pressing the artery on the exposed bone is possible and then even a cloth-strip tie up (not too hard) can help.

By the way CPR is advised against if you have not undergone formal training. It can become legal liability.

[vera_k]

Delivering health care to rural India

Looks like rural Indians have no problem trusting "doctors" who have been minimally educated for several weeks in health care provision.

[chetak]

The severed arteries have to be pressed at the point of severance to close them off. In a remote/mountain area situation I have carried out such an emergency step until the doctor arrived from base camp. torniquets on the limb may not be effective, yes, but it all depends on the surface/nature of the wound. Sometimes pressing the artery on the exposed bone is possible and then even a cloth-strip tie up (not too hard) can help.

By the way CPR is advised against if you have not undergone formal training. It can become legal liability.

I know of a case in Vizag where a drunk gentleman went to sleep, while he was waiting for a bus and sitting on the rail track adjacent to roadside bus stop.

It was fairly dark and as expected, along came a train and chopped off both his lags above the knee.

Many hours later, the gentleman was found alive the next morning. He had gone into shock and passed out. Probably the shock had closed off the major severed vessels and he was not bleeding when he was found.

He recovered and is sitting home, probably contemplating the folly of his ways.

Some times the body compensates by itself.

[shiv]

And artificial respiration is unnecessary, only cardiac massage suffices. So what is taught is outdated.

Saw ths on CNN as well - where they said, forget about mouth to mouth - just focus on the chest massage. the human body has ten minutes of oxygen before that brain damage thing sets in.

Actually when you compress and release the chest alternately for cardiac massage you are simultaneously compressing and releasing the lungs which are in effect "breathing". The old mouth to mouth is to be discarded in an emergency in favor of cardiac massage only. Most people who need to learn anything need to learn cardiac massage - which is usually delivered either ineffectively or too vigorously, breaking ribs and directly lacerating and injuring the heart.

More important is to ensure that there is no blood and vomit that is in the mouth that is going into the lungs - which is itself a killer. Those who have actually done cardiac massage (any doctor including myself) will know that the first thing that happens in an emergency is that the stomach, that sits just next to the heart gets compressed too and if it is full all the food comes into the mouth and that food gets blown deep into the lungs by mouth to mouth.

Ideally of course one must "intubate" the air passages and breathe using a bag. Emergency kits to do this are often available but usually only trained doctors, nurse and ambulancemen can get this skill right (and not even all of them),

But that is not the point. The point is that skills such as first aid and other useful life skills (Safety and hygiene in the kitchen!) need to be taught in school rather than a mindless concentration on learning by rote Gas Laws, Botzmann's constant, IUPAC naming of 1,3, dimethyl hex-5-yne, order of filling of s,p,d and f orbitals and Krebs citric acid cycle and how cis-aconitate becomes isocitrate, and exactly where pyruvate kinase comes into action. Seriously! The careers of hundreds of thousands of high school students depend on mugging up unnecessary crap like this. Who the F cares? 99.99 people in the world have no use for this data.

[shaardula]

But that is not the point. The point is that skills such as first aid and other useful life skills (Safety and hygiene in the kitchen!) need to be taught in school rather than a mindless concentration on learning by rote Gas Laws, Botzmann's constant, IUPAC naming of 1,3, dimethyl hex-5-yne, order of filling of s,p,d and f orbitals and Krebs citric acid cycle and how cis-aconitate becomes isocitrate, and exactly where pyruvate kinase comes into action. Seriously! The careers of hundreds of thousands of high school students depend on mugging up unnecessary crap like this. Who the F cares? 99.99 people in the world have no use for this data.

OMG!! precisely. i have argued the same albeit for a different problem. civics & history. 99.99% have no use for magna carta and other such nonsense, when they have no clue about common procedures in day to day interaction with civic bodies. who is registration, what is mayor, when is ULB people dont know, nonsense like magna carta , year in which it was written kids mug up.

also add to this list. to a good chunk of indians whatever science and math they learn is completely useless. wtf cares how appolonius theorem is proved? when they cant apply any of the principles of even geometry to their real lives.

but shiv, somebody i know told me, the purpose is not to teach the actual results but to indirectly foster rational and scientific outlook. i dont necessarily agree. there is no point in exposing kids to abstract stuff, at the expense of application. if they dont know how to apply then even science is like a mantra - we only know it is important, without knowing why.

[shiv]

In general I don't like IndiaPakistan comparisons. Being better than Pakistanis hardly a goal, but sometimes a comparison becomes inevitable. When I was collecting data for my Paki ebook I did not have the benefit of YouTube. Of late I have been watching YouTube videos of ordinary street scenes in Pakistan and I was struck by two things. First I realised that the cars in Pakistan are the same as the cars in India and that new models released in India were being released in Pakistan as well. The second realization was that the "similarity" of India and Pakistan was not just that - but a whole lot of other things. For example - there is a particular model of 7-faced pre-cast concrete kerb stone that has appeared in India in the last 10 years. Pakistan too appears to have exactly the same model of pre-cast kerb stone.

To me this indicates that the same companies are supplying both countries. OK - it may be India that is actually producing much of the stuff - but not necessarily. As for the pre-cast concrete blocks - the mould and machinery to mass produce that are certainly being made by the same company. What that means is that while we spend inordinate amounts of time seeing differences between India and Pakistan (as the Pakis do) people who are doing business in both countries are making profits from both sides because of physical proximity - and the pre independence similarity of the two nations is continuing into a post independence similarity.

So I decided to look at some of these question in a little bit more detail, and I post that here because I believe it is more relevant to India and Indians than Pakistan. I looked at the number of cars per thousand first - and in India it is 12 per thousand and Pakistan is 8 per thousand. The figure for all "developed nations" is over 500 per thousand. Of course the statistic translates to 12 million cars in India and 1.2 million in Pakistan - which means that 91% of the business for those "common suppliers" comes from India, which has about 88% of the people in IndiaPakistan. Not a huge difference. I find that the cost of a Maruti Omni van in India is about INR 2 lakhs, while the same model in Pakistan is PKR 5 lakhs.

When I look at television sets per thousand, it is 58 for India and 19 for Pakistan. India had (2003) 58 million TV sets versus 2.8 million in Pakistan. 95% of the TV sales of a common supplier occur in India, which has 88% of the combined population of IndiaPakistan.

Looking at Cellphones it appears that 5% Pakis and 36% Indian own cellphones, but with 360 million phones (It's more now) in India and 88 million in Pakistan 80% of cellphone sales occur in India.

I was wondering if the data could be viewed differently. It is said that 25% of Indian (250 million) and 24 % Pakistanis (37 million) are below the poverty line. Clearly, cars, TV sets and cellphones are bought only by those above the poverty line. So if we compute the above figures taking into account only those people above the poverty line in both countries we get

Cars 16 per thousand APL India
Cars 10.6 per thousand APL - Pakistan

TV sets 77 per thousand APL - India
TV sets 25 per thousand APL Pakistan

Cellphones: 48% Indians APL own one
Cellphones: 78% Pakistanis own one

I was wondering if these figures say something and they do. Cars, TV sets and cellphones can be graded in that order according to price (anywhere in the world. No mater where you go cost of car>Cost of TV> cost of Cellphone.

India has a relatively larger percentage of people who are able to afford Cars and TVs. I believe this represents the vastly larger middle class in India. But why do cellphones indicate a different trend. It turns out that the penetration of cellphones (lines per 100 people) is higher in Pakistan than in China, leave alone India. This is probably a function of a much smaller land area that is easy to cover. The smallest countries in the world have the highest penetration. Trinidad is among the highest in the world.

The way I read these stats is that India has a vibrant population of about 750-800 million which represent a rising India. India however has a pouolation of 250-300 million who need urgent attention and whose condition is not improving as fast as it should.

[shiv]

but shiv, somebody i know told me, the purpose is not to teach the actual results but to indirectly foster rational and scientific outlook..

This, as you have rightly pointed out, is complete rubbish. We are fostering learning by formula and rote, not much different from the Paki madrassas we mock on here.

How the hell can you teach motion of particles and the derivation of the mathematical principles that describe that motion before enchanting a child with real life examples. How can you teach flow in a pipe and Bernoulli's theorem before showing a child real life examples of the thing at work. But that is exactly what we are doing.

If any of you have a child in CBSE 11th or 12th, please pick up his Physics book and then pick up a first year engineering textbook. You will find that your 17 year old is being taught what people are supposed to learn in first year engineering. And in School Biology they are taught Biochemistry that ! learned in 2nd year medicine and have never used again in my life - and I have been a doctor for 32 years now.

And then they tell us that 75% of engineering graduates in India are unemployable.

What the frug is going on? Is this the way to "foster a rational scientific outlook"?

[Sachin]

civics & history. 99.99% have no use for magna carta and other such nonsense, when they have no clue about common procedures in day to day interaction with civic bodies. who is registration, what is mayor, when is ULB people dont know, nonsense like magna carta , year in which it was written kids mug up

Cannot agree with you more. I had the misfortune to study CIVICS under the ICSE syllabus. As school kids, it all went over our heads. Mugging up the constituition, "elcotoral college" etc. etc. But if a simple question, "how is an xyz Municipal Council in Socialist Republic of Kerala elected?", no clue. What are the simple procedures involved when filing a complaint at the local police station, again no clue.

History was another joke. Again, rather than gaining any concrete knowledge it was a case of learning the names of all kings by heart, and then make some generic statements.

For our model exams, we had two questions one after the other.
1. Write a short note on Akbar
2. Write a short note on Gol Gumbaz

A school mate of mine (now having a good business in Gelf, but yet simple and humble) answered for the question #2. "Gol Gumbaz was a fierce warrior, he led many battles and wars". For him, Gol Gumbaz was the name of a new Mughal King, and he then gave the standard response.

In Socialist Republic, the State Govt. had introduced a scheme known as DPEP. This was more like the schooling in western countries. It was not rote learning, and school kids were taught simple things first. It even included identifying trees, birds etc by watching them. It also included visits to a local hospital, police stations etc. But this did not yield good results as kids coming out of such schools will not be able to the compete in Entrance exams, where rote learning and mugging up is the key.

One of the popular Malayalam dailies Mathurbhumi did a news on the Entrance exams trends in Kerala. Many of the emminent doctors, and the so called entrance coaching experts did admit that the present system is faulty. A chap trying to become a doctor, he is only interested in passing the exams and qualifying for MBBS (by hook or crook). His aptitude in other social aspects of that profession (humaneness, empathy with patients) are not even checked.

[vera_k]

If any of you have a child in CBSE 11th or 12th, please pick up his Physics book and then pick up a first year engineering textbook. You will find that your 17 year old is being taught what people are supposed to learn in first year engineering.

Is that an IIT textbook? The CBSE is geared towards preparing kids for IIT.

[Yayavar]

If any of you have a child in CBSE 11th or 12th, please pick up his Physics book and then pick up a first year engineering textbook. You will find that your 17 year old is being taught what people are supposed to learn in first year engineering.

Is that an IIT textbook? The CBSE is geared towards preparing kids for IIT.

I always thought first semester engineering repeated it to bring all to the same level from different boards(and then some in the 2nd semester. It holds for both Chemistry and Physics. It might hold the same in Botany/Zoology for medicine. It does indicate a mismatch -- not sure if the level needs to be moved to the left (simplified) in CBSE or to the right in engineering. Not everyone will take the PCBZ courses (physics, chemistry, botany, zoology) in 11th and 12th.

[SriKumar]

How the hell can you teach motion of particles and the derivation of the mathematical principles that describe that motion before enchanting a child with real life examples. How can you teach flow in a pipe and Bernoulli's theorem before showing a child real life examples of the thing at work. But that is exactly what we are doing.

Absolutely spot on. And it is not just for kids, it applies to adults too. My personal experience has forced me to come to the above conclusion. From my POV, it is a perversion of the education process to go the current route where equations of motions are derived before showing how they are useful, where they are applicable. Science , IMHO, is best learnt when it is taught as a means to understand the nature around us, e.g. whether it is projectile motion, flow of streams, flow of blood in an artery, how much weight a bone can take before it breaks, etc. The equations that describe these phenomena indeed represent the core essence of their behavior, but to teach the math independently of real life experience (which we find all around us) kills the life and spirit (and purpose) of science. Truly sad situation. I am sure there are teachers who can and are willing to teach the subject matter in a more practical way, but the students who study via that route will get killed in the entrance exams.

We are fostering learning by formula and rote, not much different from the Paki madrassas we mock on here.

[Comment below may be more for the Education Thread, and if it leads to a discussion, we can move it there].
On the matter of rote learning, I've tried to figure out where it came from, and how did it come to dominate the Indian education system. Several possibilities: (i) did the British introduce it ?(IMHO unlikely possibility, and even if they did, India had about 60 years to undo it, but did not). (ii) Did it come from our own tradition- our old rishis/munis did memorize entire vedas/upanishads etc. (we have entire methodologies to memorize vast volumes of material) and this spilled over into our education system, (iii) until 1500, there was no printing press and therefore no textbooks for every student in a class, therefore, all educational material had to be first memorized and, this gave primacy to rote learning in our traditional education system. If anyone has a comment, I am willing to hear it.

I definitely see benefits to memorization of technical material, but in India, it seems to come at the expense of spending time on understanding subject matter and relating it to nature. This is a huge problem and is actually detrimental to developing a fundamental interest in science, IMHO.

[negi]

I don't understand what is the issue with teaching Bernoulli's theorem in XIth std or say Biot savart law in XIIth physics ? One cannot expect schools to have expensive wind tunnels and related stuff to actually show the physical phenomenon at work to everyone at least not in India .We all read about the legendary Van de Graff generator but no one saw it afaik even amongst the IITs only Kanpur has one. And there is no harm in Engg and XII std syllabus overlapping with each other it infact at times helps to re visit a known concept from a different pov .

Having said that yes the syllabus needs to be restructured to make sense for instance the first chapters in Physics for class XII on electrostatics involve derivation of concepts which require knowledge of 'Integration' and 'limits' and the Mathematics textbook has these chapters after Matrices and stuff which means that student will either have to learn Integration on his own or mug up the expression till he/she is introduced to the subject in Maths class.

In engineering too (E&C ) they teach concepts of FM before the Bessel's function has been introduced to the students in 'APPLIED/ENGG' mathematics class .

[JwalaMukhi]

We are fostering learning by formula and rote, not much different from the Paki madrassas we mock on here.

[Comment below may be more for the Education Thread, and if it leads to a discussion, we can move it there].
On the matter of rote learning, I've tried to figure out where it came from, and how did it come to dominate the Indian education system. Several possibilities: (i) did the British introduce it ?(IMHO unlikely possibility, and even if they did, India had about 60 years to undo it, but did not). (ii) Did it come from our own tradition- our old rishis/munis did memorize entire vedas/upanishads etc. (we have entire methodologies to memorize vast volumes of material) and this spilled over into our education system, (iii) until 1500, there was no printing press and therefore no textbooks for every student in a class, therefore, all educational material had to be first memorized and, this gave primacy to rote learning in our traditional education system. If anyone has a comment, I am willing to hear it.

I definitely see benefits to memorization of technical material, but in India, it seems to come at the expense of spending time on understanding subject matter and relating it to nature. This is a huge problem and is actually detrimental to developing a fundamental interest in science, IMHO.

The bolded part is the problem. That arises mainly due to lack of any sense of understanding and easy relation to the language in which it is expressed. In most cases, it is English, which is alien and has a lot of difficulty at very young level, who are not taught 'English' as a tool. It is principally taught as a literary course. Think of grammar being taught as dry as possible with Wren and Martin,'s Grammar book. It would kill the interest of young people to learn the language and on top of it use it to learn other subjects such as science etc. What is needed is a simple "idiot's guide to English" or "English for dummies" and should be taught as a mere tool. Also teach English with respect to Indian context and not as in Jack and Jill. Ramu and shamu of Tinkle would go a long way. That would stop the memorization without the effort to understanding.

Having said all that, there is lot of benefits that are associated with memorization techniques developed in Indian context. Please not to compare that with the Madrassa technique, as it would in one stroke reduce any understanding that is requisite for the techinques developed during vedic period. The seers in those era were past masters in training the human brain. They have conducted immense experiments with the mind, and have leveraged and trained and tuned the fine tool (brain). The techniques associated are slowly being realized by the current generations. Think of mental excercises that one would prescribe to keep it in shape. While it is easy to access and see the benefits of physical excercise (yoga) and is being accepted by SDREs as not to be looked down upon, some of the excercises that are done with the faculties of mind are now explored and adapted in the West. Sadly, it may come full circle as SDREs need validation from elsewhere to see what is presented to them on a platter. (In nukkkad thread, I had posted a link about how repetition techinque is used in west recently to yield higher success rates for children who lag behind.)

Some of the repetitions like mantras (timings and spatial domain are also equally important to gain maximum results) are done to tire the brain by repetitive task/s. It helps brain to cope with the seemingly boring task, by responding to this kind of stimuli to get into deep sleep. Some of the mantras and other mental excercises are done to improvise non-sequential access to memory. This would seem as if the brain has a strong memory, where in fact, it has been tuned and trained to make use of other assorted tricks. All in all, it is important to realize that some of these techniques are used to keep the mental faculties as fit as possible. It was not just to place holder for the "printing press" for dissemination. It is an art developed to keep the brain sharp to learn, adapt and thrive. As with any excercise, when not done correctly, it can look like hamster on a treadmill, pointless and repetitive.

[SriKumar]

I don't understand what is the issue with teaching Bernoulli's theorem in XIth std or say Biot savart law in XIIth physics ? One cannot expect schools to have expensive wind tunnels and related stuff to actually show the physical phenomenon at work to everyone at least not in India .We all read about the legendary Van de Graff generator but no one saw it afaik even amongst the IITs only Kanpur has one.

Above comments illustrate the issue I talk about. For electricity/magnetism, we directly jump onto Biot-Savart's law and its mathematical representation. True, the BS law is the core principle, but is there where we should start? The first step towards this topic, IMHO, would have been to ask: what is the relation between a current in a wire and the magnetic field it creates. Can we measure it? There is no need for hi fi equipment for this, all you need is a wire with a current and a device to measure the magnetic field. The next question would be: what is the relation between the distance and the field strength. Can we spot the inverse square relationship. The constants can be worked out later.

These steps promote the process of understanding, and help us deduce the law (as opposed to starting with the mathematical statement- which should be the last step, IHMO). Same thing for Bernoullii. You dont need a big wind tunnel to test out the relation between pressure and velocity in a closed flow. Simple equipment works too- Linky. The starting premise must be: what is the relation between pressure, velocity and height of a fluid. Simple equipment can help us determine a qualitative relation between the 3 variables (or two, to keep it simple). In fact, that is the fundamental question....What is the relation between phenomena 'x' and 'y' in nature? How can we deduce the relation (which is the question we face if a new phenomenon is discovered)? And how can it be mathematically codified? IMHO, this should be the approach. (Of course, mathematicians dont care about the physical basis, so, the equations and their manipulation is the end in itself. So, I am not talking about them).

As to what class the above should be taught in, I am fine with teaching it in 5th class if the students can absorb it. And I maintain that if we start with a phenomenon in nature (= simple experiment or an observation in nature e.g. rainbow, moon and tides etc.) and focus on the variables and their qualitative relationships, 5th class students can understand the above and find a way to come up with (simple/simplistic) equations that describe physical phenomena.


Jwalamuki:

I'll respond to your post shortly. One point: The 'madrassa' comment was not mine. It was by Shiv, and he probably used a bit of license to exaggerate and compare our education with madrassa.

Added later: Above is bit OT, I'll move my posts in a few hours.

[brihaspati]

This discussion reminds me of an incident I experienced as a child in "class 1". I had observed that even in closed rooms, a heavy weight hung from a rather long string and swung as a pendulum showed a curious tendency. The plane of swinging slowly rotated on its own - irrespective of which initial plane I started the swinging. When I reported this to the "science teacher" he mocked me publicly saying that I did not even understand how "draughts" can change the plane of swinging. I protested, syaing that I checked for that also with a lit candle. I was casually dismissed and also warned for being "uppity" and challenging "knowledgeable authority". The person was a PhD in Chemistry but taken a job in the "reputed school". He taught "general science" at that level sometimes to give "quality education" to generate "enthusiasm" among newbies for "science".

This was one of my early encounters with pompous "knowledgeable authority" who have not only ceased to observe and think simply because they have been in their "profession" for a "while" but also because they felt that their experience gave them the right ridicule and dismiss observations by "others" who did not belong in one sense or the other.

My search led me to a couple of books - one was the Feynman lectures, a book on Calculus by Piskunov, and others. It took me a couple of years to teach myself calculus and mechanics to derive the Coriolis Force effect that led to the "rotating plane" I had observed. Once I had taught myself the mathematical tools, almost every odd physical phenomenon I observed began to make sense. That one effect I observed is an excellent proof of earths rotation around its axis and not "sky going around". But without the mathematical apparatus - the connection will never be obvious.

I think we should think carefully here. From the practical viewpoint there is always going to be attraction for earlier specialization so that students can concentrate on what is "needed" and discard what is not going to be "useful". But then who decides and how they can decide what is not going to be useful in say 10 years time for a particular student? On the other hand a wide set of exposures actually is a good hedging bet for future trends.

The level and intensity is never a problem - the problem is the mode by which the intense one is being given. The capacity for abstraction and abstract formulation is crucial in modern science. That should not be sacrified to develop robotic highly efficient individuals specialized for a particular task but unable to change the paradigms when needed or use cross-discipline knowledge to solve apparently intractable problems.

There are many examples of how ideas and exposure to one subject area actually helps breakthroughs in other areas even if the person concerned had not pursued the "light bulb" subject as a specialization.

[JwalaMukhi]

One point: The 'madrassa' comment was not mine. It was by Shiv, and he probably used a bit of license to exaggerate and compare our education with madrassa.

SriKumar,
Sorry, didn't mean to convey that you implied that. Apologies.

[shiv]

If any of you have a child in CBSE 11th or 12th, please pick up his Physics book and then pick up a first year engineering textbook. You will find that your 17 year old is being taught what people are supposed to learn in first year engineering.

< snip > The CBSE is geared towards preparing kids for IIT.

Exactly.

CBSE science is an IIT/AIEEE (or Med) coaching tutorial and its not school to create people who need to enter varied professions that any well balanced developed country requires. Our country's schools are stuck in the "Doctor or Engineer" mode that was the rule in my childhood over 3 decades ago. And the schools - fearing their own teaching ability in subjects that are too vast to be covered in 2 years do a tie up with special coaching classes which conduct official extra classes in schools.

In the desperate rush for "IIT" in India every child ends up attending extra coaching classes - each of which claims special ability to get a child into IIT and after all that 450,00 kids do the exam and only 7000 kids get in - a 98.5% failure rate. But the country created 400,000 nerds who have spent 10 hours a day mugging formulae and working sums, with no time for any other activity or mental/physical development

Is it any wonder that our country cannot easily design LCAs or MBTs or new Operating systems. It shows in the performance of our country. We only need to see the connection between education and finished product.

[shiv]

Having said all that, there is lot of benefits that are associated with memorization techniques developed in Indian context. Please not to compare that with the Madrassa technique, as it would in one stroke reduce any understanding that is requisite for the techinques developed during vedic period. The seers in those era were past masters in training the human brain.

Please! This is India's headache. When the system is idiotic today what the seers did 5000 or 3000 years ago is of no consequence. I am currently reading Al Beruni's book. Maths from India was transported to Persia, translated to Arabic and thence to Arabia in those days (about a 1000 years ago) . Where does Indian maths stand today? Please name one maths degree in this nation of 1 billion. What kind of post graduate Engineering degree can anyone get in India today? Every single Indian who studies in India and then goes to the US instantly understands how they do well there and why they were unable to thrive here. Why should honesty about today be mixed up with sentiment about a discarded and forgotten past? What used to happen in India is both discarded and forgotten in India. A parody of the past is not the same as a recreation of the past.

But we live on sentiment. We believe we are on the right track because our remote ancestors were so competent. We do not want to accept that we are dunces. And many of my peers who sit abroad after having achieved their full potential abroad get a kind of sentiment about India and its glorious history. A mythical rosy mental picture is built up about a decrepit decadent nation with no insight about itself. National glory comes from a great people - not from memories of great people. Unless Indians can change India internally it will only muddle though while odd individuals will keep on doing well. A lot of work is needed to achieve uniform national competence to reach a world beating level. We are far from that. Very far.

[JwalaMukhi]

Shivji, without contradicting what you are trying to say, I'm just pointing out, that simply because that something of the past was not understood, it does not mean it is irrelevant to the present. Here is one post from nukkad, that I reproduce below and let you judge what it means.
Of course, all the problems that you mention persists else India would have been the top dog by now. However, this is simply not about being nostalgic, it is about how much rediscovery has to occur.
Reposted from nukkad:
Ratta-fication has its benefits. The problem occurs only when rattafication substitutes for analytical thinking. When rattafication is sole mode of enlightenment, then it will severely limit. Finally, SDREs may actually do not look down upon rattafication process that SDREs indulge, now that west ( ) has discovered the benefits of that (just as yoga is now not a bad word amongst SDREs ).
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =121253104

Quote:
Intensive reading programs can produce measurable changes in the structure of a child's brain, according to a study in the journal Neuron.

Quote:
They used a special type of MRI to look at the brains of several dozen children from 8 to 12 years old, including poor readers and those with typical reading skills. The MRI scans allowed the scientists to study the network of fibers that carries information around the brain, which lives in the brain's so-called white matter.

Children with poor reading skills had white matter with "lower structural quality" than typical children, Just says.

Building Up The Brain

So during the next school year, Just and Keller enrolled some of the poor readers in programs that provided a total of 100 hours of intensive remedial instruction. The programs had the kids practice reading words and sentences over and over again.

When they were done, a second set of MRI scans showed that the training changed "not just their reading ability, but the tissues in their brain," Just says. The integrity of their white matter improved, while it was unchanged for children in standard classes.

Equally striking, Just says: "The amount of improvement in the white matter in an individual was correlated with that individual's improvement in his reading ability."

P.S: There are two types of rattafication. 1) when one has enough grasp on the language and indulges in rattafication of the subject matter.
2) when one does not have any grip on the language and indulges in rattafication, to compensate for the lack of grip. This is most cause in SDRE kids nowadays, as the language (especially English) is taught not in a user friendly manner. English is taught as a literature course, instead of as a tool.

[shaardula]

i think we are again mixing issues. pedagogy, depth etc were not the initial issues. the initial issue was relevance of subject matter. all are related but the key issue is relevance.

honestly, a kid has a fixed number of hours for education and schooling. the key question is given those fixed hours, what is that you want to accomplish through general schooling. by general schooling i mean your average school kid. not kids with atleast some gift for abstraction who end up in sciences or engineering or in things like music. the average guy is going to be a salesperson, service industry-wala or a business-wala or something like that.

what is the objective of 10th schooling. if a kid passes 10th std., what is he expected to have learnt? utilitarian knowledge that allows him to be a functional citizen, a sense of human progression, a peek into how the scientific(one of the two great ideas of humanity)endeavours, a tour of the landscape of language(the other great idea), a rational outlook (logic, evidence, empiricism - that which separates schools from madrassa), some skills in science/math/linguistics/arts.

a lot of kids in india, dont either have the luxury to go beyond this stage, or the inclination.
------------

ps:
then there is the question of conditioning the mind to learning. apart from curiosity, there are the actual skills of learning. memorization, for example. not to be dismissed. the only idea/tool that you can use to solve a problem is the one you have in your head. if it is not there in your head, right when you need it, then forget about it. your utility as a problem solver is going to be nil. then there are other modes of learning, inference, experimentation, observation etc etc... here i have to mention, recently in US i have seen that they are trying to make it too exciting, easy, fun for the kids. toys, cartoons, movies, games etc etc. the problem with that is real science and knowledge and the process of acquiring it is not so easy or colourful, its lot of harwork, sweat, sleepless nights and sacrifice. the kids who are pumped up on fun stuff, simply walk out or are dissapointed at all the unglamourous, in making knowledge sexy. and i'm not talking just small kids, people are using cartoons to keep 20-21 year old grownups engaged.

then there is pedagogy, ability of the teacher to inspire, arouse curiosity, love, passion etc etc., honestly, in a country were getting teachers to school itself is a problem, there is no question of pedagogy. not that there are not great, self sacrificing teachers. but it is sad that it takes great sacrifices for a teacher to be effective. another point is teachers are also learning, mostly on their own, with no support. how many states send the teachers on their roll to regular training , so that they can update their skills? my own personal agenda is just like we have reservation for army men, we should have reservation for the kids of teachers in rural areas.

[JwalaMukhi]

Unfortunately, memorization is treated as if it is just a database of all things. Memorization, involves not just storage, but also effective retrival in desired time and space; and making accurate connections inside the memory stack. That is definitely, not a simple process. Sadly, many a times memorization route is sought where other learning techniques are more effective, because it is the only avenue.
Kids not exposed to the language of learning, have a choice either to i) give up ii) try staying above the water through memorization. Guess what happens in motivated kids?
Memorization is bad only when kids indulge in that, when they are lazy to excercise other routes that are elegant and available. Unfortunately, most of subject matter is taught in alien language and it has a steep learning curve, and the luxury for which is reserved to not all kids. Most kids realize that learning certain things through memorization is tenacious and does not constitute in depth learning, but they are forced to resort to that for the lack of alternatives.
Developing access to alternate means of learning, including memorization is the key. Right mix is warranted. Else, as shaardula points out very well, the quest to learn will disappear as soon as the sexiness of learning is seen to be superficial. Cultivating rigour is equally important to the process of learning.

[shaardula]

JM, ashtaavadhaani ganesh has said similar things about memorization.

[SriKumar]

JM,

Interesting observations. Couple of things- one thing you mention is that memorization is used as a crutch by students who dont know English well, and are severely handicapped as a result. But even in schools where students know English very well (top 20% of our population) the same approach is taken in teaching science, i.e. less focus on deduction and more on memorization. It is this category I had in mind. Conversely, I assume (since I have not studied in such a school) that in vernacular medium schools where the instruction is done in the local language, they would be going through the same grind. I dont really think the method of instruction (i.e. dependence on rote learning) is any different in schools with and without English (but please correct me if I am wrong).

About the NPR article and the other post you made suggests that a specific techniques of memorization improves brain function in terms of storage and retrieval. I can only agree. It definitely sounds reasonable. But this approach is used as a surrogate for learning and that is the issue, as you also point out. And funnily enough, even though there is so much stress on memorization, I know of no school (CBSE/ICSE/State Board etc) that has a class on memorization techniques as a part of its curriculum (quite a contradiction eh?).

Speaking personally, I have come around to appreciating the benefits of memorization of some items. In school, I used to memorize formula like crazy.....(in fact, Biot Savart law is one of them, I still recall the exact formula!), then I went away from that. But now I do see the benefit of memorizing some facts/formula. I've felt, first-hand, the loss when I could not recall the formulae in discussions/reviews. Of course, one can always look it up later, but the discussion would have gone further had the formulae been available on the spot. Fields like Biology/Chemistry/Medicine require vast amounts of memorization and recall.....no way around that.

[SriKumar]

I had observed that even in closed rooms, a heavy weight hung from a rather long string and swung as a pendulum showed a curious tendency....... That one effect I observed is an excellent proof of earths rotation around its axis and not "sky going around".

Exactly. Even commonplace observations can tell you a lot about physics in general and specific phenomena.

My search led me to a couple of books - one was the Feynman lectures, a book on Calculus by Piskunov, and others. It took me a couple of years to teach myself calculus and mechanics to derive the Coriolis Force effect that led to the "rotating plane" I had observed. Once I had taught myself the mathematical tools, almost every odd physical phenomenon I observed began to make sense.

A logical path that makes complete sense, and is similar to what I had suggested earlier i.e. physical phenomena have to be understood on their own terms, and the mathematical models are derived from that and you have a powerful way of predicting system behavior. I am a fan of this approach because the student is self-motivated to pursue the path from observation to deduction to abstraction (=mathematical model). As an aside, I wish to add this: the physics itself could be a bit arbitrary for example, one could ask: does the force of gravitation have to follow the inverse square law (like force of magnetism). It does, and so that is the model we use. If it had followed some other law e.g. force is directly proportional to the square of the masses and inversely proportional to the cube of the distance, we would have a different equation, but yet it would be an equally powerful mathematical model.

But then who decides and how they can decide what is not going to be useful in say 10 years time for a particular student? On the other hand a wide set of exposures actually is a good hedging bet for future trends.

Absolutely. I think it is a distortion to lock oneself into one specific area early on, but practical concerns force (=job, career) force one to make a choice. Personally, the wide-exposure method seem so much fun because it is thrilling to see the same mathematical trend in phenomena in two (seemingly) un-related fields.

Adminullahs: If you believe the posts should be moved to another thread, I request the loya jirga to move it to the right cave for further conferral.

[shiv]

If you look at school syllabi for atom, starting from my schooldays (nearly 40 years ago)

Atoms consist of nuclei with protons an neutrons and electrons orbiting the nucleus. Lower energy electrons occupy inner orbits. electron jumps down to a lower energy orbit releasing a photon. Bonds are formed either from ions with opposite charges or by electron sharing.

Now: (Typed from 11th std CBSE chemistry book)

Atoms consist of nuclei with protons an neutrons and electrons orbiting the nucleus. Charge to mass ratio of electron. Charge on the electron. Thompson model. Rutherford. Wave nature of EM radiation. Particle nature of EM radiation. Planck's Quantum theory,Photoelectric effect, kinetic energy of ejected electron from shining a beam of light, , Evidence for the quantized Electronic energy levels - Atomic spectra, , emission and absorption spectra, Balmer series, Rydberg constant, explanation of line spectra of hydrogen, Quantum mechanical model of atom, Heisenberg's unccertainty principle, , Hydrogen atom and Shrodinger equation, Orbitals and quantum numbers, principal quantum number, azimuthal quantum number, magnetic orbital quantum number, electron spin, boundary surface diagrams of 2p orbitals, 3d orbitals, order of filling of orbitals, Aufbau principle, Pauli exclusion principle. Hund's rule of maximum multiplicity, stability of subshells, , Kossel Lewis approach to bonding, Octet rule, Langmuir modification, Lattice enthalpy, bond length, bond angle, bond enthalpy, bond order, dipole moment, valence shell electron pair repulsion theory, valence bonds, hybridization etc etc etc.

This was less than 2 chapters of the 11th Std Chemistry book. There are 2 books each for Chem and Physics in 11 std alone.

The point being that a lot more has been added to the body of knowledge since my childhood, but children are not given any extra time to absorb all this extra knowledge in the Indian system. The list at the top is what I learned at age 16-17 in 11th Std. The list below is what a 16-17 year old child is expected to learn today.

Days have not got any longer and kids still have to do all this by age 17. A larger and larger number of children are unable to cope. Even many of those those who cope are no more than nerds needing to spend 10 hours a day studying. At 16? Seriously!!

Where is our country going? We are being led by blind slavedrivers. Our education system itself cannot see beyond Medicine and Engineering and a huge horde of parents are torturing their children imagining that their son must not look stupid because neighbor's son can cope. Someone needs to put an end to this insanity. Our country does not know what it is doing with its children. This is not just about education - it is about national blindness about what the nation needs to do to foster all round excellence.

A person very close to me - a prof in the US got a desi engineer who did not know simple gas laws. The prof called up the earlier Chinese prof whose dept this desi came from. The Chinese prof said " thought he was good - he had IIT in his bio data". This desi had done a BE from some college and an Mtech from IIT. Everyone tells me that IIT Mtech is no good and that the only place fora PG in engieering in India is IISc.

Now what are we trying to teach our children? This desi was surely a top scorer in 11th and 12th

[Muppalla]

A tonne load of information.

http://www.publicationsdivision.nic.in/ ... a_2010.pdf

[ramana]

That Chemistry syllabus is same as for 11th grade Chemistry Honors class in US. I dont know if the regular Chemistry is less rigorous.

[Virupaksha]

A person very close to me - a prof in the US got a desi engineer who did not know simple gas laws. The prof called up the earlier Chinese prof whose dept this desi came from. The Chinese prof said " thought he was good - he had IIT in his bio data". This desi had done a BE from some college and an Mtech from IIT. Everyone tells me that IIT Mtech is no good and that the only place fora PG in engieering in India is IISc.

Now what are we trying to teach our children? This desi was surely a top scorer in 11th and 12th

If you dont mind asking, which engineer was he?

[animesharma]

A person very close to me - a prof in the US got a desi engineer who did not know simple gas laws. The prof called up the earlier Chinese prof whose dept this desi came from. The Chinese prof said " thought he was good - he had IIT in his bio data". This desi had done a BE from some college and an Mtech from IIT. Everyone tells me that IIT Mtech is no good and that the only place fora PG in engieering in India is IISc.

Now what are we trying to teach our children? This desi was surely a top scorer in 11th and 12th

The Problem with indian system of Higher education is the stress on quantity ,not quality. Even gov. targets to start more IITs,IIMs,AIIMs, tries to increase seats.. but when did we hear them trying to improve quality.

In case of an average engineering institute, it is taught like a science. I am currently a final year student of electronics and was not satisfied with quality and method of education in my institute, hence i enrolled (for projects on my own cost) in a nearby well known private institute, which is run by private firms and offers only PG and PHDs.
The first difference i noticed in my own institute, 90%+ stress was on class room and practical was a formality.(Even my HOD was afraid of technical question in a teachers day event of student->teacher quiz).
In the other private institute, all theory they learn is what is required to complete a task in lab.
This system may have drawbacks, but it atleast trains you from the point of view of industry, you are doing what you will be doing in industry.. whereas in my college, we are studying what we may be doing in industry. There's a huge difference.

Second problem is quality of faculty. I do not have moral right to comment on this issue, but i can say faculties are paid less, and price is proportional to quality.

When a school in jharkhand (under a private steel plant, near ranchi) started paying almost 40k to senior teachers and other teachers in similar scale.. a few faculties in private colleges in orrisa left their job to join this school. reason? they were paid almost half in college.

I presume so is the case in average private college in India.

[Stan_Savljevic]

The point being that a lot more has been added to the body of knowledge since my childhood, but children are not given any extra time to absorb all this extra knowledge in the Indian system. The list at the top is what I learned at age 16-17 in 11th Std. The list below is what a 16-17 year old child is expected to learn today.

Days have not got any longer and kids still have to do all this by age 17. A larger and larger number of children are unable to cope. Even many of those those who cope are no more than nerds needing to spend 10 hours a day studying. At 16? Seriously!!

Where is our country going? We are being led by blind slavedrivers. Our education system itself cannot see beyond Medicine and Engineering and a huge horde of parents are torturing their children imagining that their son must not look stupid because neighbor's son can cope. Someone needs to put an end to this insanity. Our country does not know what it is doing with its children. This is not just about education - it is about national blindness about what the nation needs to do to foster all round excellence.

Shiv, let me give you a contrarian take on this. There are good intentions by those who make policy statements. But good intentions are never enough. Whatever policies get made, Indians are good at fcking things. And not only do people fck things up massively, but then we also blame those who make laws and policies with some seriousness than those who dont or those who dont turn up at the Parliament or the Vidhan Soudha. That is us, you me and everyone else.

You say that things were xyz then and are x^2 y^2 z^2 today. Unfortunately, fact is, science grows at an exponential pace with the profusion of people taking to science. Not just science, technology develops at such a rapid pace somuchso that the attention span of people to fads is only that much. Folks took to orkut in India with such panache and now I can assure a good fraction of the population either does nt bother about orkut as the novelty value has gone down or have jumped boat to tweeting and mini-me micro-blogging rubbish. Use and throw is the jargon, cell phones get used for a year or two and thrown out. Something has to replace them and something will, because there are 1000s of people trying to invent the new fad so that they can milk the market and retire right away.

Now regarding school syllabus, if one wants to succeed in this climate, one has to start running at a rapid pace to stay at the same place. This is how life is in academe. That is how life is in general. You run and run and run and if you choose not to, you are so far behind that you are on your own and god save you. Now the aim of school syllabi is to engender people to succeed. Syllabi are created with a belief that if enough information is provided, people will pick what is best for them and what they are good at, eventually. For some people, eventually comes at 15, for some at 5, for some at 50. Should the CBSE take the blame for the people's fault of rote-learning? Should that not be the parents' responsibility to "advice" the kids to stop succumbing to peer pressure and follow their love? On the contrary, what do you see? Parents put immense pressure on the students to get a good paying job. Earlier, it used to be a gubermand job, yesterday it was it-vity and tomorrow it will be something else. Who should take the blame if a good fraction of the people are minimalists and fatalists who would rather pick the safest lower bound made available to them instead of aiming for the sky and settling for the Himalayas? Should it be the responsibility of the evil gubermand or its evil bourgeois policymakers or should it be the failing of the parents and the students in general?

Where is our country going? We are being led by blind slavedrivers. Our education system itself cannot see beyond Medicine and Engineering and a huge horde of parents are torturing their children imagining that their son must not look stupid because neighbor's son can cope. Someone needs to put an end to this insanity. Our country does not know what it is doing with its children. This is not just about education - it is about national blindness about what the nation needs to do to foster all round excellence.

We are led by blind slavedrivers who are a reflection of the blind slavedrivers that WE are. Government does nt grow in the sky, the govt is a reflection of the people at large. The people who represent us dont have a cell phone to god and commune with him to set our policies. Has the novelty of R-D-B or chak de India worn off so soon? Should that be blamed on the attn span of people or their ability to persist or they want the banana to be peeled and fed to them? Our education system cannot see beyond medicine and engg sure, the market caters to what people want. If every lazy head of the family wants his or her offspring to study medicine or engg, every TD&H will set up a medical college or engg college and the market corrects itself. Why dont people run off to that Presidency or the JMI with the same venom as they do to EAMCET or CEE? The people are blind to their own illness and conveniently blame the gubermand for every ill, and in some sense, they are not wrong, aint the gubermand == em in every sense. So you see the circle in the argument close.

[shaardula]

animesh,
at the level you are talking, i very vary of changing the syllabus according to the immediate needs of the industry. I hope you are not batting to reduce a full degree to professional training course. The two are different. Science/technology grows rapidly, but there are certain fundamentals will always be relevant and still form the bedrock of what is their out there. I'm admittedly talking from a very narrow view of my field, but i'm sure the same holds for other fields. At the level you are talking you are also expected to develop some skills in abstraction. Courses can always be reordered, and prioritized, but facility with theory is a must at the level you are talking about.

ayyo stan,
un-characteristic reply. somehow very cynical. are you turning a corner or something?

[Stan_Savljevic]

stan,
un-characteristic reply. somehow very cynical. are you turning a corner or something?

If you mean that I am getting more sympathetic to the establishment's whinefest than to the whinefest of citizen-activists, that has been the case for a while now. Unless I come back to India and do things to change stuff, I am not going to piss on people and things-as-is with my magical cures. May be when I was a callow idiot.

[brihaspati]

That atom example is illustrative. The problem is not of the details added. But I don't think there is any application of that chapter on "modern concept" of the atom that is shown to be relevant in predicting how chemical reactions are going to proceed. It is that lack of evidence of connectedness - that what goes before and is being taught as foundation can be used to derive/make sense of the following material. I bet, chemical equations are still shown in that arbitary mode which makes them standa lone items - where usually there is no way of predicting/derivinh how and under what conditions the reactions are going to take place. So students then have to "mug" it all up.

I had a severe fight with my final school year chemistry teacher, because I used "system of linear equations" to solve directly for the chemical equation. He was furious because he thought I was mocking him even after he had shown how "difficult" it was to "balance equations" even through the "oxidation number" method. The algebraic method took seconds and no learning by heart. In fact even the "oxidation number" changes could be worked back. And it was the simplicity of that idea - that he hated - he said so openly. He thought it was an "insult" to chemistry!

To use that first chapter on modern atomic theory effectively to outline the following "meat" of chemistry - we need a bit more of applied maths at a higher level and computational aid that is not given at the school standard. In that sense that intro on atom is useless at that school level for chemistry - whereas it remains relevant for physics at the same level.

I remember this issue very well, because in a scholarship contest we appeared on a whim (because they were reputed to provide excellent meals during the contest and there were no entry fees apart from the postage stamps) just after clearing school - I was given a problem on the fly that required application of wave mechanics to derive outcomes of a certain chemical reaction. There was a twist to that problem which I was not aware of then. Within the short time span of a quarter of a day - it was wonderful to explore such solutions. Because I was not constrained by previous knowledge - I blissfully gave several peculiar solutions. The person who came to discuss at the end gave me quizzical looks and probed me whether I had actually read up on recent journal papers. I had no access to such things then and which was obvious on interrogation. I did win the scholarship and he later on explained to me that he had given the problem becuase it required non-standard and non-traditional approaches so that he could test for "original" thinking.

Is it not possible to incorporate this aspect of connectedness - showing and leading on how the previous material directly produces/affects/derives the subsequent material?

As scientific knowledge adds up there will be pressure to absorb more and earlier. I would not be that surprised if in the not very distant future elements of the "standard model" in particle physics becomes school leaving material. I would see a lot of essential arguments for upgrading the syllabus as is done in desh. But maybe that connectedness and consistency/utility throughout the course could be emphasized more and the fat trimmed where it can be done to reduce the time spent.

[brihaspati]

It is too tempting not to talk of bio-sciences here too. A lot of biosciences probably would become simpler - if people were given a basic intro on Latin and Greek. At least word meanings and the word derivations.

But in all this debate are we not losing the fundamental aspect - that we only do rote learning what we are not interested in and are forced to learn? What we are passionate about - we will absorb and move around like fish in water - without even being aware that we are putting up things in memory. Teachers need to be passionate about their subjects (supported by good payment - of course) and that almost always makes the students passionate about the subject being taught. Once that initial fire is started, the student will stoke it on his own.