Intelligence & National Security Discussion

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abhishek_sharma
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

LeT Profile

http://www.cfr.org/publication/17882/profile.html
The LeT's agenda, as outlined in a pamphlet titled, "Why are we waging jihad," includes the restoration of Islamic rule over all parts of India, it says. The pamphlet also declares the United States, Israel, and India as existential enemies of Islam, writes Haqqani. The portal adds: LeT "seeks to bring about a union of all Muslim majority regions in countries that surround Pakistan." According to Haqqani, LeT justifies its ideology by the Quranic verse that says, "You are obligated to fight even though it is something you do not like" (2:216).
According to most sources, the group collects donations from the Pakistani expatriate community in the Persian Gulf and Britain as well as from Islamic NGOs, and Pakistani and Kashmiri businessmen. Experts say it also receives funding from the ISI and Saudi Arabia. LeT also coordinates its charitable activities through its front organization Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JUD), which spearheaded humanitarian relief to the victims of the 2005 earthquake in Kashmir.
The U.S. State Department says a senior al-Qaeda member Abu Zubaydah was captured at an LeT safe house in Faisalabad in Pakistan in 2002, which suggested that some LeT members were facilitating the movement of al-Qaeda members in Pakistan.

The U.S. State Department's 2007 country report on terrorism says Pakistan-based LeT and other Kashmir-focused groups continued regional attack planning. "In 2007, Kashmir-focused groups continued to support attacks in Afghanistan, and operatives trained by the groups" continued to feature in al-Qaeda's transnational attack planning, it contends.

Ashley Tellis, a senior associate for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace says LeT has grown into a terrorist organization of global reach (CNN). According to Tellis, LeT today operates in Kashmir, Afghanistan, Chechnya, and has been noticed in Iraq. It has fundraising operations in western Europe, and in Africa, he says.
ASPuar
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

Hm. It doesnt really seem as though the defence minister is much interested in security either. Shake-yer Gurda of the Indian Express is correctly termed by many members here as a jerk of the first water, and motivated though his latest article is, against the armed forces, he makes one key point. This is the first defence minister in nearly fifty years, to have thrown the armed forces to the mercy of aspersions in the press, and this, all because he wants to protect his so called "reputation". If he doesnt get his act together, and start taking some action on procurement, force morale, and readiness, his reputation will go down in history as nothing more than a failure.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by KiranM »

I would like to present a different viewpoint on this re-organization. NSA need not have a fixed mandate. They can be altered depending on the situation.

Under current circumstances, the present HM is very much capable (and has interest) to handle internal security issues in addition to the administration work that accompanies his office. (This is in stark contrast to his predecessor whose pet topic was Constitution). As such it is better not to create an alternate power centre in NSA for internal security.

If in future a less capable HM takes office, the mandate of the then NSA can be expanded to include Internal Security.

sum wrote:
With the PM not displaying any taste for security, it had been largely Narayanan's say in key IB and RAW appointments.
:evil: :evil:

PM not interested in security matters?

Sum ji, sometimes it is prudent to leave a particular job in the hands of a more capable person. The PM must be feeling constrained to look into day to day aspects of national security. So IMHO he wants to leave it to HM on internal security and to NSA on foreign policy and defense related matters. This does not mean he is out of the loop. The regular Cabinet Committee on Security meets (and other such forums) serve the purpose of presenting the bigger picture, where the contributors will be both the HM and the NSA for their respective mandates.
manjgu wrote: as per chidus thinking ( he is working on a discussion paper on reorg)... RAW continues to report to Prin Secy while its CT wing also reports to NCTC and similarly CT wing of IB also reports into NCTC ( while IB continues to report to home ministry).
Manjgu ji, precisely my views as well. IMHO NCTC will not constrain agencies in other spheres. But just act as a common conduit for internal security. We should wait for the details to be more clear on NCTC before we critique further.

Regards,
Kiran
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Kanson »

Some of the pros:

1. MKN is a tough man. Similarly PC who seems himself elevated to that role also is tough. Good example is his stand against Naxal. So I dont see any problem in MKN moving out as far as Int. Security is concern. Regarding external affairs, though Menon is considered shrewd he is not felt as a tough man. We have to wait and see. One unconfirmed tidbits from N-deal about Menon. When the US point man was not playing balls and dragged the discussion, Menon made up the case with Rice in front of him in US and he was aghast at the way Menon handled it.

2. MKN being from IB always carries that tag whenever he do any move and reforms in Security setup. But PC doesnt have any such baggage and actions will be swift.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by ramana »

The way PC handled Telanagana doesnt augur well for the HM and Internal Security. Also making NCTC the single point sets it up for single point failure as in US.

I think you are referring to MKN speaking directly while Menon was aghast. In one of the nuke threads its quoted like that.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Nikhil T »

sum wrote:
With the PM not displaying any taste for security, it had been largely Narayanan's say in key IB and RAW appointments.


KiranM, it is very apparent that the PM is not interested in security matters and is stuck in foreign policy. The candid observation by the panelists from the debate on NDTV was that the PM doesnt have daily briefings from R&AW anymore. This might be the first time in a long while that the R&AW chief has lost direct access to the PM.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Kanson »

There are three reasons to which sources attribute Narayanan’s being shunted out to West Bengal as Governor.

The first is that he goofed up on the Telangana issue, misreading the spread of the agitation and drawing Chidambaram to commit a blunder by announcing initiation of the process for the formation of Telangana.
I was under the impression that it is Narayanan who made the Telangana fiasco.

I think it is Richard Boucher who was at that time acted as point man.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Craig Alpert »

US defence secretary meets PM, discusses military cooperation
Besides the expanding defence cooperation between New Delhi and Washington in training, exercises and trade, the two sides focused on the fight against insurgent groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan during Gates' talks with Manmohan Singh and external affairs minister S M Krishna.
Besides, he will explore with Indian leaders ways to expand the already-robust military-to-military relationship, deepen counter-terrorism cooperation and bolster India's role in promoting security in Afghanistan and Pakistan and the entire South Asia region.
"I believe that the Indians responded subsequently with a great deal of restraint and have conducted themselves in a very statesmanlike manner since that attack," he told reporters.
"The secretary is travelling to India because we have strong bilateral relations with that country and need to nurture and grow those," he said. "That is a priority."
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Recall that the Hon'ble VP is a long-term IDSA member and a career diplomat before he became the VP...
V-P pushes for MPs' oversight of intelligence agencies
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 478011.cms
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Recall that the Hon'ble VP is a long-term IDSA member and a career diplomat before he became the VP...
wow. I didn't know that. I thought he was a political appointee.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by vishal »

irrelevant post.
Last edited by Rahul M on 20 Jan 2010 08:17, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edit.
Muppalla
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Muppalla »

I do not think MKN is being moved out for Telangana. The actual ones who goofed up (very higher up in the political chain) on Telangana are actually using his exit. MKN is very close to the Rajmata and family and there is no news that he lost favor. I mean he is just a "willing" fall guy. I do not think we still know why he is shifted yet.

It will be foolish to belive that they just relied upon some intelligence input and they did not think it is even important to inform Andhra politicos or AP CM about splitting their state before going to press. Spin to the power of spin. They needed a fall-guy and they got one willingly.Period.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by somnath »

The allusion to the "PM not interested in security" has to be bunkum..A very large number of issues landing up at the PM's desk will pertain to security, and he cannot but be interested in it..
Nikhil T wrote:KiranM, it is very apparent that the PM is not interested in security matters and is stuck in foreign policy. The candid observation by the panelists from the debate on NDTV was that the PM doesnt have daily briefings from R&AW anymore. This might be the first time in a long while that the R&AW chief has lost direct access to the PM.
This however, started in ABV's reign..RN Kao had specifically written to ABV about it..Part of the reason maybe that with so many agencies runnign around today doing various (and sometimes the same) things, the PM wants a one-point "digested" source of intel..And in absence of an alternate institutional mechanism, the NSA became a de facto intel czar..With foreign policy becoming so enmeshed with security (actually always has been), and the PM driving foreign policy (started in NEhru's time), the NSA has also become a foreign policy advisor..

The challenge is really in institutionalisation of a structre - quite frankly no structure is good or bad in itself, people manning it make the difference. But an ever-changing structure depending on individuals does no one any good, which is what is happening now..If in the whole confusion, a better instituional mechanism is put in place, it would be all for a good end!
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Muppalla wrote:I do not think MKN is being moved out for Telangana. The actual ones who goofed up (very higher up in the political chain) on Telangana are actually using his exit. MKN is very close to the Rajmata and family and there is no news that he lost favor. I mean he is just a "willing" fall guy. I do not think we still know why he is shifted yet.

It will be foolish to belive that they just relied upon some intelligence input and they did not think it is even important to inform Andhra politicos or AP CM about splitting their state before going to press. Spin to the power of spin. They needed a fall-guy and they got one willingly.Period.
Amen
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Jarita »

Ansaris proposal will drastically compromise intelligence functioning. Politicians will run it to the ground just the way they have run everything else.
What's up with this government? Are they out to destroy all Indian institutions?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 478011.cms

As per the objections put forward to resist the idea of parliamentary scrutiny of functioning of intelligence agencies, which have been under the scanner in the wake of a spate of terror attacks, Ansari said some of those tend to be condescending. He said far from being a stumbling block, discussion should be viewed as an essential preliminary to any wise action. "They belittle the capacity of elected representatives to be responsible in matters of national security. Also overlooked is the fact that depending on the fall of the electoral dice, these same representatives are transformed into the political executive entrusted with the responsibility of supervising the work of intelligence agencies."

He agreed that operational secrecy had to be maintained but asserted that the legislature which allocates funds was entitled to insist on financial and performance accountability.

He disapproved of the current practice where the expenses of intelligence agencies are not subjected to the same kind of parliamentary scrutiny as in the case of other wings of the government. "The practice of subsuming allocations is not conducive to transparency; it may even encourage misuse.The proposed standing committee could fill this void; it could also function as a surrogate for public opinion and thus facilitate wider acceptance of the imperatives of a situation. Given the nature of emerging threats, a wider sampling of opinion would in fact facilitate better comprehension of the issues and of possible remedies to attain national power and comprehensive defence," said Ansari.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by somnath »

^^^Absolutely wrong. Its one of the institutional frailties of the Indian system that intel agencies are not under Parliamentary scanners..All other "normal" countries, and I mean pretty much every single one, have their intel agencies under Parliamentary watch. It is an abosolute sine qua non, not just for democratic principles, but also for the simple point on accountability, without which no institution can rise..The VP was spot on, and he is not the first one to have said so...
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

^^
Is it the right thing to do? Yes.

Do I think that itll get done the right way? Not sure, but I hope so. VK Singh made some mention of it in his book.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by ramana »

The intel agencies are under the various ministries which are already accountable to the Lok Sabha. The minstries come for their funds to the Lok Sabha via the Finance Bill.

All the officials who head the agencies are Gazetted Officers from Civil Services who serve at the pleasure of the President.

I dont see any use of this Parlimentary oversight. Its not like in the West or FSU or TSP with its ISI. If they monitor Indian civilians tey do so on Executive orders.

Mr Ansari is creating new bogeys.

Found on net...
Former RAW chief AS Dulat, while maintaining that the IB and RAW were accountable to Executive of this country, said it would be wise to have a Parliamentary committee only after working out the nitty-gritty. "We are not like ISI. We are accountable to the Executive," he said.
Excerpts of his speech:

Shaping Intelligence for world of tomorrow
Shaping intelligence for the world of tomorrow
by Vice President Hamid Ansari

We remember Rameshwar Nath Kao today for his work and for his engaging personality. In regard to the former, I cannot help recalling a couplet by an Arab poet of the 10th century:

These are our works, these works our souls display/Behold our works when we have passed away.

Ramjee Kao created an organisation, negotiated rather than confronted inter-agency contentions and achieved a historic success. He could also be indulgent to a fault. Those who worked closely with him have described Kao as a complex mix of objectivity and subjectivity in matters concerning human relationships. A peer in a position to assess from a distance described him as a fascinating mix of physical and mental elegance, and one who was shy to talk about his accomplishments. :?:

Kao’s business in life was intelligence, more specifically external intelligence. Its relevance is in no need of commentary. We can go as far back as Kautilya, or even earlier, to perceive its importance.

In fact, the methodological sophistication exhibited in Kautilya’s chapters on the secret service and internal security can be read with benefit even today. The same holds good for Sun Tzu’s chapter on secret agents. He highlights the relevance of ‘foreknowledge’ and concludes with the interesting observation that ‘there is no place where espionage is not used.’ Over centuries the ambit of intelligence, and the craft itself, expanded and enriched itself in response to requirements. Techniques were refined and technology opened up qualitatively different vistas.
{So he knows a bit of history}

In the 20th century individual agents on specific assignments gave way to regular agencies. Fascination with the unknown also brought forth a vast amount of literary output that combined fact and fiction, working powerfully on public imagination and even lending respectability to questionable acts. There is merit in C.P. Snow’s observation that “the euphoria of secrecy does go to the head.” :roll:

A particularly serious problem relates to the misuse of intelligence. The classic instance in recent times is the process leading to the invasion of Iraq in March 2003. The July 2004 Report of the US Senate Select Committee on Pre-War Intelligence Assessment of Iraq revealed that “group think dynamics” led the intelligence community to interpret ambiguous evidence as conclusive and ignore in the process established mechanisms to challenge assumptions and group think.

Closer to the mark was the secret Downing Street memo of July 23, 2002 in which the head of British intelligence reported after discussions in Washington that “intelligence and facts were being fixed around policy” of regime change. The Iraq inquiry now in progress in London is shedding more light on this.

{How are these two rlevant to Indian experience? Why doesnt he quote from KRC or Henderson-Brooks or other Indian relevant reports?}

It is hardly necessary to remind an Indian audience that ministerial responsibility to the legislature, and eventually to the electorate, is an essential element of democratic governance to which we are committed by the Constitution. The methodology of this is in place for most aspects of governmental activity; the exceptions to it pertain to the intelligence and security structure of the state.

{Not true. The Indian agencies report to the Executive. They are staffed by officials who serve at the pleasure of the President of India.}

How then is oversight and accountability ensured?

The traditional answer and prevailing practice, of oversight by the concerned minister and Prime Minister and general accountability of the latter to parliament, was accepted as adequate in an earlier period but is now considered amorphous and does not meet the requirements of good governance in an open society. :?:

Concerns in the matter have primarily arisen on two counts: (a) the nature and extent of supervision over intelligence services exercised by the political executive and (b) the possibility and scope of misuse of these services by the political executive. Both concerns emanate from the absence of specific accountability, on these matters, to the legislature.

{This worthy is part of the govt and wants to dismantle the agencies of the govt!}

The problem is not a new one and has been faced by other democratic societies. In the late 1970s opinion in the United States reached the conclusion that “oversight of the intelligence community is essential because of the critical importance of ensuring the nation’s security, as well as checking the potential for abuse of power.”

As a result, two congressional committees were established in 1976 and 1977. Despite this, the 9/11 Commission Report of 2004 found the congressional oversight of intelligence “dysfunctional” and recommended structural changes.

A similar exercise was conducted in the United Kingdom through the Intelligence Services Act 1994 that established the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament to examine the expenditure, administration and policy of the intelligence services.

Other countries like Canada, Australia, South Africa, Norway, Germany, Argentina, the Netherlands, Poland and Romania have also put in place similar mechanisms of public accountability.

{All those countries have direct instances of misuse of agencies.
Hence the oversight. In India the Executive which can misuse is directly accountable to the Parliament.}


It has been argued that the scope of the mandate of the parliamentary intelligence oversight committee is crucial for its success. Three models of the mandate can be identified: (a) comprehensive to include both policy and operations, as in the US and Germany (b) limited to matters of policy and finance, as in the UK (c) focused on human rights and rule of law, as in Norway.

The basic purpose of all three is to ensure that government policy in a given field is carried out effectively within the boundaries of the law. For this reason, it is felt that without access to some operational detail, an oversight body can have or give no assurance about the efficacy or the legality of the intelligence services.

Given these models of calibrated openness to ensure oversight and accountability, there is no reason why a democratic system like ours should not have a standing committee of Parliament on intelligence that could function at least on the pattern of other Standing Committees.

Since internal and external intelligence do not in our system report to the same minister, the possibility of entrusting this work to the Standing Committee on Home Affairs may not meet the requirement.

The shortcomings of the traditional argument, of leaving intelligence to the oversight of the executive, became evident in the Report of the Kargil Review Committee and its sections on intelligence in its findings and recommendations. It identified flaws, acknowledged the absence of coordination and of “checks and balances”, and noted the absence of governmental correctives. The report referred to relevant systems in major countries but did not include in it their systems of oversight and accountability.

{These are all in the purvey of Executive branch. Why does the legistalive branch want to inject itself into the process. What does the Constituion have to say on separation of powers?}

Some correctives were introduced pursuant to the establishment of the National Security System and the report of the Group of Ministers on the reform of the national security system in its entirety. These improvements enhanced internal accountability and coordination but did not go far enough and did not put in place a more open system of public accountability. :?:

In the discussions that followed the publication of the Kargil Review Committee Report, and apart from inter-agency spats and the blame game, one informed commentator described it as a “substantive contribution in educating our Parliament and public opinion” aimed at “introducing transparency in this sensitive sector.”

Arguments of this nature tend to be condescending. They ignore the time-honoured formula which is the bedrock of democracy: that “instead of looking on discussion as a stumbling block in the way of action, we think it an indispensable preliminary to any wise action.” They belittle the capacity of elected representatives to be responsible in matters of national security. Also overlooked is the fact that depending on the fall of the electoral dice, these same representatives are transformed into the political executive entrusted with the responsibility of supervising the work of intelligence agencies.

The contention that openness and public discussion would compromise the secrecy essential for intelligence needs to be examined carefully. Operational secrecy is one aspect of the matter and has to be maintained.

The legislature, nevertheless, is the organ of the state that allocates funds and is therefore entitled to insist on financial and performance accountability. The practice of subsuming allocations is not conducive to transparency; it may even encourage misuse.

The proposed standing committee could fill this void; it could also function as a surrogate for public opinion and thus facilitate wider acceptance of the imperatives of a situation.

Given the nature of emerging threats to human security, a wider sampling of opinion would in fact facilitate better comprehension of the issues and of possible remedies to attain total national power and comprehensive defence. {WoW. Now its human security and not just national security!}

Let me conclude by saying that in a fast changing world, the challenges facing intelligence practitioners are enormous. Can they adapt their organisations, policies and practices to a world in which there is a qualitative change in the notion of security and in the nature of threats?

Both compel a paradigm shift in procedures and objectives; so does the imperative of accountability in terms of democratic norms of good governance. Each of these needs to be factored into the work patterns of the intelligence operative of tomorrow. A timely synthesis would pave the way for success.

Excerpted from the Fourth R.N. Kao Memorial Lecture delivered in New Delhi on January 19
I don't understand who organizes these lectures? A few years back the twittering twit was allowed to give the RN Kao lecture.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by somnath »

ramana wrote:The intel agencies are under the various ministries which are already accountable to the Lok Sabha. The minstries come for their funds to the Lok Sabha via the Finance Bill.

All the officials who head the agencies are Gazetted Officers from Civil Services who serve at the pleasure of the President.
Non sequitor. Stretching it completely, all departments and ministries of the govt get their funding from the Union Budget, and all of them are manned by officials who serve at the pleasure of the PResident. There should not be any Parliamentary oversight for any of them in that case? Why should the Rural Development Ministry be under Parliamentary scrutiny while RAW/IB/NTRO not?

In every civilised country, intel agencies are manned by officers who serve at the pleasure of the head of state, but it doesnt preclude Parliamentary scrutiny for any one of them..

"We are accountable to the executive" - absolute nonsense..The Intel agencies ARE the executive, or part of it..What is the point of someone being accountable to himself?

Today, budgets of RAW, IB, NTRO, ARC are not just classiified (justifiably so), they get scrutinised by no one but they themselves (and some ministers and bureaucrats in the respective ministries)! That measn that these organisations today effectively accountable to no one but themselves...This is also repsonsible, in parts for the ad hocism that prevails today, with structures being changed at the whims and perceived powers of individuals virtually overnight.

The Veep makes an important point, though he is not the first one to do so. PArliamentary oversight is an absolute sine qua non for a democratic system..Taxpayer monies are being spent, so the taxpayer, or his representatives, should at least have oversight on how it being spent! US does it, UK does it, Israel, France, Germany - but we are Martian on this - the world's largest democracy speadfastly refuses to adhere to this basic principle related to soemthing so ritical to national security.

Edited later:
{All those countries have direct instances of misuse of agencies.
Hence the oversight. In India the Executive which can misuse is directly accountable to the Parliament.}
And we dont have "misuse" issues in India? Using ARC aricraft for pilgrimages, or personal property rented out to the organsiation as "safe houses"? These are low level stuff...Goes right upto use of IB for political purposes, all the time..
Last edited by somnath on 21 Jan 2010 07:21, edited 1 time in total.
Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Changing The Indian Intelligence Culture ----- By B. Raman
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r3616.html
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by shynee »

somnath
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by somnath »

^^^ B Raman makes the point lucidly..
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Sridhar »

Contrary to the claims being made about parliamentary oversight politicizing the intelligence community, it will serve the purpose of depoliticizing it. The problem with our intelligence agencies is that they are heavily politicized. The IB has been the most misused of the agencies, with its primary role at one point being to keep tabs on the misdeeds of politicians (both opposition and ruling party) so that they could be suitably blackmailed. Or to predict the outcomes of elections (something it often failed miserably at, thankfully so in 1976).

With parliamentary oversight, it would be harder to hide things. It would be harder to justify the large number of officers posted at locations that are obviously for political intelligence, to the detriment of security related intelligence. The problem is not that intelligence officers are rogues, though the lack of oversight makes misuse and misappropriation that much easier. The problem is that they report only to their political bosses (sometimes there has only been one boss - the PM) and they have more often than not been misused. If they are also overseen by a Parliamentary committee (a select one with closed-door briefings if necessary), the chances of their misuse by the ruling Government reduce. That is the purpose and benefit of Parliamentary oversight - reducing the risks of nexuses forming and exploiting the secrecy to do whatever they please.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by somnath »

Sridhar wrote:If they are also overseen by a Parliamentary committee (a select one with closed-door briefings if necessary), the chances of their misuse by the ruling Government reduce.
All parliamentary committees in India are "closed door" affairs. Its a loss for TV news channels, as some of the proceedings there would make for riveting viewing. But at the same time, it allows committee members to behave in a more non-partisan manner outside the glare of cameras. By all indications, both from MPs as well as from people called by these committees periodically, these committees are doing a fairly good job..In fact the committee on Defence periodically points out issues on pending and delayed acquisitions, non implementation of CDS etc..
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by somnath »

Raja Menon on the NSA..Echoes my thoughts! :)

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Lonely-at ... 99884.aspx

Though he is wrong factually IMO in this
The NSA is also responsible for the state of nuclear deterrence — the correlation between India’s forces and its nuclear rivals, for which, bizarrely, no staff exists in India. Nor is there a central targeting staff, with the risk that when the world begins to implement Obama’s nuclear zero, the sub-continental arsenals, still growing, will get capped in disorderly confusion
There is a Strategic Planning Division (SPD) within the PMO that is responsible to "mapping" the nuke deterrence requirements. The SFC, in turn now has detailed tables on "targets".Both this is from Bharat KArnad's book..
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

However, if more people know the secrets, it increases the probability that our enemies would bribe them and penetrate our system. We all read the newspapers and know that some (albeit not all) politicians have really low ethical standards. (Why do we elect them? That should be discussed elsewhere.) This just entails that we would like to keep an eye on these politicians as well.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by somnath »

abhishek_sharma wrote:However, if more people know the secrets, it increases the probability that our enemies would bribe them and penetrate our system. We all read the newspapers and know that some (albeit not all) politicians have really low ethical standards. (Why do we elect them? That should be discussed elsewhere.) This just entails that we would like to keep an eye on these politicians as well.
The same politicians become ministers and Prime Ministers, isnt it? To them we entrust the right to start a war, to press the nuke button..What if the guy up there with these powers is "bought out"? Hey but thinking of that, what if the guy in-charge of counter intel in RAW is bought out? Or what if the Gen commanding the Kharga Corps is bought out?
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by somnath »

K Subramanyam now on the office of NSA..

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... sa/383180/

Again pretty much talking about the same concept, ie, the NSA should be an "advisor" rather than a hands on operative..
It can be asked what the new NSA’s role will be if the internal security responsibilities are consolidated and concentrated in the new counter-terrorism centre under the home ministry. It is logical that all intelligence is coordinated under a Director of National Intelligence (DNI). But while DNI should report to the minister in charge of internal security, he should also simultaneously be reporting to the PM through the NSA and should have direct access to the PM. The head of intelligence having direct access to the head of the government is a basic principle of statecraft.
This is a modification of the US model - DCI reports to the new DNI, but also to the President..The statement in "bold" stands out - first principles stuff, that the last two PMs (ABV and MMS) have tended to ignore..
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

somnath wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:However, if more people know the secrets, it increases the probability that our enemies would bribe them and penetrate our system. We all read the newspapers and know that some (albeit not all) politicians have really low ethical standards. (Why do we elect them? That should be discussed elsewhere.) This just entails that we would like to keep an eye on these politicians as well.
The same politicians become ministers and Prime Ministers, isnt it? To them we entrust the right to start a war, to press the nuke button..What if the guy up there with these powers is "bought out"? Hey but thinking of that, what if the guy in-charge of counter intel in RAW is bought out? Or what if the Gen commanding the Kharga Corps is bought out?
If the PM or the guy-in-charge of counter intel in RAW is bought, not much can be done. It is a good philosophical quandary.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by somnath »

^^^ That is precisely why every system, democratic or otherwise have checks and balances. And democratcio systems make these overly elaborate, causing "bureaucracies" to develop, sometime to the detriment of efficiency - as they say, eternal vigilance is the price of liberty..At the same time, democratic systems also presuppose a degree of "trust" in its key interlocutors, starting from the citizen right on (not up) to the head of state..
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by ramana »

If you want Parliamentary oversight over IB then you have to remove the vote of confidence powers from the body. The IB is tasked to protect the state and the state is the Govt. In addition it takes care of enemy spies.

All those experts are thinking of US models and using cookie cutter approach for Indian situation.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by somnath »

ramana wrote:If you want Parliamentary oversight over IB then you have to remove the vote of confidence powers from the body. The IB is tasked to protect the state and the state is the Govt. In addition it takes care of enemy spies.

All those experts are thinking of US models and using cookie cutter approach for Indian situation.
What does that (part bolded) mean? Every intel agency everywhere is tasked to protect the state. And for most countries, govt is a very large part of the state (though state and govt are not synonymous entities, as you erroneously pioint out). And many intel agencies have a counter intel mandate..

there is nothing cookie cutter in this - just a reaffirmation of basic tenets of accountability.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Austin »

I tend to agree with the suggestions that our entire Intel setup needs some kind of Parliamentary Oversight ( in what form is best GOI and Parliment decide ) this will bring in accountability and oversight by the people who fund them.

There will be initial resistance on part of intel but resistance is futile.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Sridhar »

Somnath,

There are no cameras recording the proceedings of Parliamentary committees. But that does not automatically mean that they are "closed door". Minutes are taken of all Parliamentary committee discussions and are available to other MPs. The information is not privileged, i.e. members are not on oath to keep it secret unless specifically asked to.

Parliamentary procedures allow for closed door sessions of Parliament. Similarly, there are (or can be) devised procedures to be followed by Parliamentary committees that allow for the requisite degree of secrecy.

Furthermore, the Parliamentary committees in India do not have the powers to subpoena, call witnesses etc. and are not the public spectacles one sees in the US Congress. They typically do not have access to current material from the respective ministries/departments, but only to historical information. Thus, the standing committee for the Ministry of Finance will never have access to any information about the forthcoming budget, about any revenue intelligence operations etc. They have information from the past that allows them to evaluate the functioning of the ministry and give broad recommendations. By the same token, a committee on intelligence will not have access to any operational details or information about ongoing projects/operations. But they will be able to broadly evaluate performance of the intelligence agencies, make systemic recommendations and bring to light misconduct on the part of the agencies or the political leadership of the country.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Austin »

There may be many iff and buts here , but a start as to be made and it will improve in years ahead , perhaps with things like in camera hearing , sharing of privileged information and looking into certain intel operation specially where there are lapses and accountability fixed.

As a matter of principle we should move the entire Indian Intel Setup under some kind of parliamentary supervision and oversight.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by somnath »

Sridhar wrote:Somnath,

There are no cameras recording the proceedings of Parliamentary committees. But that does not automatically mean that they are "closed door". Minutes are taken of all Parliamentary committee discussions and are available to other MPs. The information is not privileged, i.e. members are not on oath to keep it secret unless specifically asked to.

...

Furthermore, the Parliamentary committees in India do not have the powers to subpoena, call witnesses etc. and are not the public spectacles one sees in the US Congress. They typically do not have access to current material from the respective ministries/departments, but only to historical information. Thus, the standing committee for the Ministry of Finance will never have access to any information about the forthcoming budget, about any revenue intelligence operations etc. They have information from the past that allows them to evaluate the functioning of the ministry and give broad recommendations. By the same token, a committee on intelligence will not have access to any operational details or information about ongoing projects/operations. But they will be able to broadly evaluate performance of the intelligence agencies, make systemic recommendations and bring to light misconduct on the part of the agencies or the political leadership of the country.
The meetings are closed door, as in no one other than members of the committee and thoese that the committee summons is present in the meetings. The minutes are circluated as you say, and I think there are some committee reports as well from time to time. The committee in India does have the power to call pretty much anyone to "testify" before itself. I personally know of PSU directors who have been called, as well as banks (in a famous case Arun Shourie arranged for a testimony/tutorial by SBI Caps on valuations when MPs raised questions on the valuations of some of the disinvestments he was presiding over!). I dont know what you mean by "current info". But while Union Budget numbers are privilaged information, most of the day-to-day information on strategies, projects etc are made freely available as asked to the committee. That includes information on the progress of major acquisition/development efforts for Defence...

For intel, I would think that while ongoing ops would be difficult to share with members, there is a large body of things to fix accountability on...For example, what went wrong with the Rabindar Singh affair, and what responsibilities have been fixed? Or what were the gaps in 26/11..Not to talk of how RAW chiefs use ARC aircraft for pilgrimages..Or why IB has so many personnel dedicated to political intel!

Net net, parliament is sovereign, and it must have oversight...
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Sridhar »

Parliamentary committees invite outsiders, mostly Government officials and sometimes others but it does not have the force of a court of law in issuing summons. Second, while it can ask for specific records from the concerned ministries/departments, it does not have the power if subpoena.

But let's leave these technicalities aside. We agree on the desirability of Parliamentary oversight and that suitable procedures can be put in place to address legitimate concerns regarding intelligence.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

^^^

Somnath, when Dulat mentions that they are accountable to the executive, he means the political, elected executive (ministers). The civil service are emphatically NOT the executive. They are government employees, there to aid the political executive by doing what they are told.

That being said, B. Raman, in Kaoboys of R&AW, mentions how black funds and secrecy caused chaos in Lanka, with RAW funding LTTE without IB and DGMIs knowledge, DGMI funding LTTE without RAW And IBs knowledge, IB funding LTTE without the other twos knowledge. A pretty kettle of fish!
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by ramana »

ASPuar wrote:^^^

Somnath, when Dulat mentions that they are accountable to the executive, he means the political, elected executive (ministers). The civil service are emphatically NOT the executive. They are government employees, there to aid the political executive by doing what they are told.

That being said, B. Raman, in Kaoboys of R&AW, mentions how black funds and secrecy caused chaos in Lanka, with RAW funding LTTE without IB and DGMIs knowledge, DGMI funding LTTE without RAW And IBs knowledge, IB funding LTTE without the other twos knowledge. A pretty kettle of fish!

All that is lack of coordination and not mal intent. These were all doen under the political executive's directions.

BTW many people think intel job is govt sinecure. IMO its more than that.
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Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

Ramana, agree 100% that it was lack of coordination, and not at all malintent.

About intel jobs being a sinecure, well, thats where I say that these deputation based tenures should not be allowed, because then it can become a sinecure, with easy foreign travel, lots of exciting postings abroad, five years of fun and games, and then back to your state cadre.

But otherwise for the career spook, AFAIK, theres nothing sinecurish about dealing with real intel work, out in the cold, on your own.

Im very much in two minds on the issue of parliamentary oversight. On the one hand, It is true that no intel agency in India acts without the say so of the political executive. So there is oversight by elected reps of the people.

On the other hand is the fact that the more you tell a politician, the more likely it is that he'll make you fall on your sword for his own political ends.

I dont know if our political classes are ready to deal with oversight of RAW etc effectively. Heck, even the politicos in the US and UK manage to mess up intel work in the course of their oversight.
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