Indian Military Aviation

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Jan 2010 21:44

Titbit in India Today:

IAF plans for modernizing 30 airfields across India ( with Hindon being the first on a pilot basis) has run into usual time delays since the loser of the bid( for ~800m $), a Italian company has filed a case against the MoD citing irregularities. ( Winner was Tata Power making it the biggest ever Indian player win in a open bid)

Guess every body and his uncle has now figured out how to ensure India is never prepared militarily.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 Jan 2010 21:55

Dhanush wrote:
Another point to note from the new source!

Apart from LCH, HAL had lined up a number of launches which includes, the Light Utility Helicopter, Turboprop Trainer, Multi-role-Transport Aircraft, Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and the Indian Multi-role helicopter, Mr Nayak added.
I thought HAL had scrapped its turboprop trainer HTT40. Is it making a comeback now??

it had.. but I guess it had been re activated considering the dire need that arose from the grounding of the HPT 32...

Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of a function, he said the first flight test was likely to take place on February two, when Defence Minister A K Antony visits the city.

Feb two???

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 23 Jan 2010 22:46

well,the LCH has already undergone a few dummy runs

....the official flight may well be on Feb 2.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 24 Jan 2010 00:13

taking the practical approach of using covert operations against TSP to counter its asymmetric warfare, if Nirbhay can be made into a reusable missile it flies in a lo-lo-hi trajectory, carry a GPS guided dumb bomb/wrapped IED that will be released within the 20-30kms distance of the target and return in a lo-lo-high trajectory to base for recovery, thats more than any armed drone can do given Nirbhay's range and ability to follow trajectories routed through the enemies radar blind spots (current Indian drones can do that), trust your IFF on the missile or Phalcon radar to keep an eye on the missile and its trajectory

since laser guided kits are already available, graduating to GPS guided kits (sensor changes) shouldn't be a problem, now if the missile can be swarmed, its as good as Israel attacking its enemies by blinding their radars, this capability which is feasible today can deter TSP from openly hosting India specific terror elements

btw, Israel doesn't suffer the reciprocity problem after it attacks

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Jan 2010 04:02

Dmurphy wrote:Defence min scrambles to ink deal on VVIP helicopter purchase as Budget draws closer
Defence ministry is scrambling to sign a deal to purchase Italian Augusta Westland VVIP helicopter before the Budget is presented. According to sources, “It is keen to utilise the Budget allocation rather than surrender it.”
....

bloody hell ! they scramble to seal the deal for VVIP helicopters like its the most urgent requirement in India rather than surrendering the budget for it, whereas umpteen number of other deals have ended up in the same situation and then been delayed.

And in this case, even when the Finance Ministry rejected the deal, its still going ahead as is. when a similar situation arose in the A-330 MRTT case, it ended up with a re-tender and this time included Boeing in the vendor list as well..a shame really when you consider that the IAF's refueller needs are far more urgent than flying some VVIPs in comfort and safety.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Jan 2010 04:09

sum wrote:Titbit in India Today:

IAF plans for modernizing 30 airfields across India ( with Hindon being the first on a pilot basis) has run into usual time delays since the loser of the bid( for ~800m $), a Italian company has filed a case against the MoD citing irregularities. ( Winner was Tata Power making it the biggest ever Indian player win in a open bid)

Guess every body and his uncle has now figured out how to ensure India is never prepared militarily.

this is a problem in other countries as well..its become a trend lately, and even in the US several programs have ended up with similar delays when one vendor raises questions on the legality of the bids. Democratic problems you see.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Jan 2010 04:10

Bob V wrote:well,the LCH has already undergone a few dummy runs ....the official flight may well be on Feb 2.

any source or this is first hand info ?

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 24 Jan 2010 04:54

Kartik wrote:
Bob V wrote:well,the LCH has already undergone a few dummy runs ....the official flight may well be on Feb 2.
any source or this is first hand info ?

Logically no PSU want to take the blame for inviting the MOD and taking chance for a first ever flight.
Anything might happen in the first flight.HAL just wanted to be on the safe side and postponed the official flight from DEC to FEB.

Dhanush · Post by **Dhanush** » 24 Jan 2010 14:10

Kartik wrote:
Bob V wrote:well,the LCH has already undergone a few dummy runs ....the official flight may well be on Feb 2.
any source or this is first hand info ?

No company will invite ministers, MoD, press etc for the first ever flight of a completely newly developed prototype helicopter. Will any same person show his creation to his authorities even without checking whether it works? We can safely assume that it has flown already many times.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 24 Jan 2010 15:27

^^ If it has flown it would have been spotted at least by one person, right.... so how come no one has reported any sightings... The only activity that has been happening off late at the HAL strip is the delta shaped wing aircraft.. its been carrying out tight turns and zoom climbs for the last couple of days... Unfortunately couldn't id the aircraft... No heli's were spotted by me except for a few Dhruv's...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Jan 2010 15:41

unless someone spends 24/7 watching HAL airport AND posts here it's unlikely we will know if LCH has been flown or not. if bob says it has been, I think we can believe him.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 24 Jan 2010 17:12

Rahul M wrote:unless someone spends 24/7 watching HAL airport AND posts here it's unlikely we will know if LCH has been flown or not. if bob says it has been, I think we can believe him.

Point taken dada..

Although I am not spending 24 hours a day watching the HAL airport, I stay for 12 hours in my office from 8 to 8 which over looks the entire length of its runway... Any bird any approach would either have to over fly my office or come to a stop at my end of the runway... so unless they have incorporated silent rotors on the LCH i did not see it fly at any point of time i was in my office... That the reason for my conviction..

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Jan 2010 17:29

Rahul M wrote:unless someone spends 24/7 watching HAL airport AND posts here it's unlikely we will know if LCH has been flown or not. if bob says it has been, I think we can believe him.

And here I was thinking that BR jingoes in bangalore are doing just that.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 Jan 2010 18:36

Do we have any assembly line for Dhruv (or proposed LCH). Some time back i read that we not not have.

One nore thing any idea what LCH may be named ??? Prahlad ??? (ooops no patent is there for me)

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Jan 2010 18:51

Do we have any assembly line for Dhruv (or proposed LCH). Some time back i read that we not not have.

where have they been producing that many dhruvs then ?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 24 Jan 2010 19:12

Narayana Rao wrote:Do we have any assembly line for Dhruv (or proposed LCH). Some time back i read that we not not have.

From ajai shukla's blog: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/R ... 080785.JPG

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 25 Jan 2010 00:10

Dmurphy wrote:
Narayana Rao wrote:Do we have any assembly line for Dhruv (or proposed LCH). Some time back i read that we not not have.
From ajai shukla's blog: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/R ... 080785.JPG

Bro, that's just a pic of the "ALH FINAL ASSEMBLY" shop.....the RWRDC shop is beside it, other important shops which play a major role include Engine shop near the army hangar , the Blade shop behind it and Seaking transmission test centre.

edit : just found a pic, from Col.'s blog
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/S ... 190246.JPG

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 25 Jan 2010 01:17

Dmurphy wrote:Defence min scrambles to ink deal on VVIP helicopter purchase as Budget draws closer
Defence ministry is scrambling to sign a deal to purchase Italian Augusta Westland VVIP helicopter before the Budget is presented. According to sources, “It is keen to utilise the Budget allocation rather than surrender it.”
....

Amazing isn't it that there are no such thing as AFI or BFI or CFI or RFI or ChickenFI or DonkeyFI. Amazing.
AS

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Jan 2010 02:55

Dhanush wrote:No company will invite ministers, MoD, press etc for the first ever flight of a completely newly developed prototype helicopter. Will any same person show his creation to his authorities even without checking whether it works? We can safely assume that it has flown already many times.

In case of aircraft, the only thing they do before first flight is taxi runs and then full scale take-off runs including nose wheel being lifted off. At least in the case of the 787, there was no first flight done before employees and media were invited for the first time it flew. Its not unheard of as you seem to claim. there are plenty of other checks that are done that verify that the system works. Its not like you've not done any testing before a first flight. but whether they've actually flown it or not as yet, its only speculation.

In this case though, it may have been flight tested or may be done before the Feb2 date. The reason is that its known that in Agusta Westland's recent AW149 first flight, there was an article that mentioned that a couple of flights had probably been done before AW actually went for what it called its first flight.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 25 Jan 2010 11:21

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Rahul M wrote:unless someone spends 24/7 watching HAL airport AND posts here it's unlikely we will know if LCH has been flown or not. if bob says it has been, I think we can believe him.
Point taken dada..

Although I am not spending 24 hours a day watching the HAL airport, I stay for 12 hours in my office from 8 to 8 which over looks the entire length of its runway... Any bird any approach would either have to over fly my office or come to a stop at my end of the runway... so unless they have incorporated silent rotors on the LCH i did not see it fly at any point of time i was in my office... That the reason for my conviction..

Dude, relax and go home earlier to your loved ones.

The LCH has not even ground run yet.

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 25 Jan 2010 13:52

chetak wrote:The LCH has not even ground run yet.

So sir, whatever that happened on Jan 1xth is being regarded as a minor incident ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jan 2010 18:23

IL76 seems able to take a beating and still keep ticking. here is a fighter style landing , but with zero flare so
that the front wheel takes enormous initial load it seems

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cclH8ZSD ... re=related

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Jan 2010 21:10

Bob V wrote:
chetak wrote:The LCH has not even ground run yet.
So sir, whatever that happened on Jan 1xth is being regarded as a minor incident ?

What happened on Jan 1xth, Bob-saar?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 26 Jan 2010 02:06

Delay in IJT programme irks IAF

BANGALORE: A technical hitch in the recently installed Russian AL-55 I turbofan engine has turned out to be the latest irritant causing a further delay in the indigenous Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) programme.

The delay has infuriated the Indian Air Force (IAF) for whom the trainer is being built.
...
...
Discovered during a routine test flight, the malfunction in the Russian engine’s lubrication system and the resultant oil leak, prompted HAL and the Russian team to send an SOS to the AL-55 I engine’s chief designer who flew in from Moscow.

Luckily for the programme, the snag has been traced to a faulty component and not a design deficiency.
...
...
But the problem resulted in the abrupt grounding of prototype trainer one (PT1), the only aircraft on which the Russian engine has been mounted. Officials from HAL told The Hindu that the investigations into the causes for the problem were almost behind them and tests flights of PT1 had been resumed.
...
..
The sources said that PT2, which had been “recovered” from last February’s crash, would be fitted with the AL-55 I engine.

...
...
However, officials do not expect the trainer to meet its June 2010 deadline for initial operational clearance.
...

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 26 Jan 2010 02:26

chetak wrote: The LCH has not even ground run yet.

I have a quick question for you.

Has adding the Shakti engine changed the payload or range characteristics of Dhruv?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jan 2010 06:47

yesterday night there was a helicopter making multiple rounds over koramangala, domlur, HAL at 8pm. couldnt
figure out due to darkness. far away over CV raman nagar could see the lights of another helicopter.

could be Dhruv's could be bigger meat.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jan 2010 06:55

Singha wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cclH8ZSD ... re=related

That is an almost perfect 3 point landing. The wings are still generating just enough lift to make sure the plane does not BANG down on the runway and stick there. That would be a hard landing. Here the plane just skims the runway a bit before settling. And he flares beautifully to bring the plane from nose down to horizontal.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jan 2010 07:37

Cybaru wrote:
chetak wrote: The LCH has not even ground run yet.
I have a quick question for you.

Has adding the Shakti engine changed the payload or range characteristics of Dhruv?

significantly in the hi-alt. the last MSM had the details.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Jan 2010 23:12

Cybaru wrote:
chetak wrote: The LCH has not even ground run yet.
I have a quick question for you.

Has adding the Shakti engine changed the payload or range characteristics of Dhruv?

As I have mentioned earlier, the output of the Shakti at sea level is more than the present gearbox can handle.

However in the Siachen, the Shakti engined Dhruv has performed excellently payload wise.

I will have to twist some arms and get a peek at the Shakti performance charts for the range part. Offhand, I don't have the sfc figures for old and new engines.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 27 Jan 2010 01:42

Rahul M wrote:significantly in the hi-alt. the last MSM had the details.

MSM ? Sorry man, I haven't kept up with lots of these acronyms.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 27 Jan 2010 01:45

chetak wrote: As I have mentioned earlier, the output of the Shakti at sea level is more than the present gearbox can handle.

However in the Siachen, the Shakti engined Dhruv has performed excellently payload wise.

I will have to twist some arms and get a peek at the Shakti performance charts for the range part. Offhand, I don't have the sfc figures for old and new engines.

I remember reading something you had posted earlier, but it eludes me now.

What do u mean by gearbox is unable to handle it ? How does this effect the performance and what needs to be done to resolve this ?

A payload chart would be useful. I understand that navy has a requirement for longer endurance helicopters on its capital ships, but is there no role at all for DHRUV in asw ships or for coastal sanitization ?

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 27 Jan 2010 02:20

Cybaru wrote:
Rahul M wrote:significantly in the hi-alt. the last MSM had the details.
MSM ? Sorry man, I haven't kept up with lots of these acronyms.

Minsk Square Matters, the HAL newsletter. I cant find a link to the MSM issue in question but i believe it's a copy of the same article on Livefist:

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/10/sp ... achen.html

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 27 Jan 2010 03:22

Sriman wrote: Minsk Square Matters, the HAL newsletter. I cant find a link to the MSM issue in question but i believe it's a copy of the same article on Livefist:

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/10/sp ... achen.html

619 kgs to that height.. Awesomeness

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 27 Jan 2010 03:27

chetak wrote: I will have to twist some arms and get a peek at the Shakti performance charts for the range part. Offhand, I don't have the sfc figures for old and new engines.

We are not really looking for exact numbers.. As usual, what shouldn't be posted, shouldn't get here. But I am sure, we share a whole lot of stuff with potential customers and if you can find open numbers that people don't mind sharing that would be great.

Also is the gearbox going to get redesigned for LCH ? If so any chance of getting retrofitted on Dhruv or naval version of Dhruv ?

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 27 Jan 2010 08:41

ALH to weaponised ALH to LCH, seems a good path way. The engines were also improved to Shakti. Any idea whether there is shakti - 2/3/4 also in works or we rest here for next decade???????????

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Jan 2010 13:52

putnanja wrote:Delay in IJT programme irks IAF

BANGALORE: A technical hitch in the recently installed Russian AL-55 I turbofan engine has turned out to be the latest irritant causing a further delay in the indigenous Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) programme.

The delay has infuriated the Indian Air Force (IAF) for whom the trainer is being built.
...
...
Discovered during a routine test flight, the malfunction in the Russian engine’s lubrication system and the resultant oil leak, prompted HAL and the Russian team to send an SOS to the AL-55 I engine’s chief designer who flew in from Moscow.

Luckily for the programme, the snag has been traced to a faulty component and not a design deficiency.
...
...
But the problem resulted in the abrupt grounding of prototype trainer one (PT1), the only aircraft on which the Russian engine has been mounted. Officials from HAL told The Hindu that the investigations into the causes for the problem were almost behind them and tests flights of PT1 had been resumed.
...
..
The sources said that PT2, which had been “recovered” from last February’s crash, would be fitted with the AL-55 I engine.

...
...
However, officials do not expect the trainer to meet its June 2010 deadline for initial operational clearance.
...

Surprised that HAL only went for 2 prototype planes for the development program. Given that this was a new type of aircraft being built on a "first-time" basis by HAL, IMO, at least 3 prototypes should have been built for the development & testing phase.

Also hopefully, HAL has learned on the pitfalls of changing to "unproven" engines late in the developmental stage. That was a very high risk decision, and it turned out to be just so resulting in a 5+ years delay.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Jan 2010 14:07

Cybaru wrote:
chetak wrote: I will have to twist some arms and get a peek at the Shakti performance charts for the range part. Offhand, I don't have the sfc figures for old and new engines.
We are not really looking for exact numbers.. As usual, what shouldn't be posted, shouldn't get here. But I am sure, we share a whole lot of stuff with potential customers and if you can find open numbers that people don't mind sharing that would be great.

Also is the gearbox going to get redesigned for LCH ? If so any chance of getting retrofitted on Dhruv or naval version of Dhruv ?

I am well aware that this is an open forum, sometimes frequented by unsavory lurkers.

I never have nor will ever will post classified info.

Last heard, the Red Fort was not very hospitable place.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jan 2010 14:14

yeah the IJT prog looked too optimistic when first rolled out - esp as they ditched larzac and chose al55 for cost and thrust.

minimum 5 protos are needed to finish testing quickly and enter IOC.

'trickle funding' is hardly needed as IAF really wants the plane to retire the older stuff.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 27 Jan 2010 19:17

chetak wrote: I am well aware that this is an open forum, sometimes frequented by unsavory lurkers.

I never have nor will ever will post classified info.

Last heard, the Red Fort was not very hospitable place.

I should have know better than to put out that warning asking u to share info on one hand and asking for restraint on the other!

So any more thoughts on the the questions ?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 27 Jan 2010 22:12

Singha wrote:yesterday night there was a helicopter making multiple rounds over koramangala, domlur, HAL at 8pm. couldnt
figure out due to darkness. far away over CV raman nagar could see the lights of another helicopter.

could be Dhruv's could be bigger meat.

could be one of them civilian choppers... saw one today approaching at about 1945... A beautiful sight...