Indian Army: News & Discussion

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 25 Jan 2010 01:00

@Hari Sud:

Relax, sir.

You know, in the final calculus, Im sure everyone here appreciates that you wrote a piece supportive of our army, and our nation.

As for nitpicking? Hey, BR is famous for it! Call it an organisational culture!

Take the positive criticism, and blow the negative out the ear. If this is your first time writing on this topic, more power to you, please feel free to look around and learn more, and dont let a few barbs upset you! The danger of entering the public arena (as you have done, by being published on a website), is that you open yourself to criticism. I say it is brave of you, and well done!

Thanks for taking the time to write, and finally, Im glad that there are people in the general public out there who arent taken in by the Chinese One-photo-op-PT-in-the-snow = Yellow Superman psyops!

cbelwal · Post by **cbelwal** » 25 Jan 2010 07:35

Is this the general attitude of Indian journalists ?

"I am dictator accountable to no one and I can publish anything I want. Little heathens who read me paper should look up to me and follow my words hook, line and sinker because I am the only one who can show you the path to enlightenment"

Sad state of affairs indeed !

Hari Sud wrote:Hello! This is Hari Sud reading your unpleasant remarks.

I did not give permission to any of you fools to post my paper on this website. This point was made clear to Rahul M and Ramana along time back.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 25 Jan 2010 17:46

Thing is, hes not really a journalist, more of an occasional columnist. Our journalists are far worse. At least his errors were made in favour of the troops, and the country. Most of our so called journalists go for the self goal, and are more interested in fraud scams and the army chiefs hearing.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 25 Jan 2010 18:09

ASPuar wrote:Thing is, hes not really a journalist, more of an occasional columnist. Our journalists are far worse. At least his errors were made in favour of the troops, and the country. Most of our so called journalists go for the self goal, and are more interested in fraud scams and the army chiefs hearing.

I agree with that point. Atleast, his mistakes are in favour of the troops. And, as someone pointed out, it is indirect psy-ops!

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 25 Jan 2010 21:15

President to confer Ashok Chakra to three awardees

Major Mohit Sharma of 1 Para (Special Forces), Major D Sreeram Kumar of 30 Assam Rifles and Havildar Rajesh Kumar of 11 Rajputana Rifles will be honoured with Ashok Chakra, the country’s highest peace time gallantry medal, on Republic Day on Tuesday.

Ankit

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 26 Jan 2010 02:03

Ashok Chakra for Havildar Rajesh Kumar

Havildar Rajesh Kumar of 11th Battalion, Rajputana Rifles, who laid down his life battling terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir, has been awarded the Ashok Chakra, the highest peacetime gallantry award on the occasion of Republic Day.
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Havildar Rajesh Kumar, who belonged to the Ghatak team was on a search mission in the dense forest of Kupwara district of J&K and during operations killed three terrorists.
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President Pratibha Devisingh Patil will confer the Ashok Chakra posthumously on Havildar Rajesh Kumar before the start of Republic Day Parade at Rajpath on Tuesday. She will also confer Ashok Chakra on Major Mohit Sharma (posthumous) and Major D. Sreeram Kumar, who were awarded on the eve of Independence Day.
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Names of four Marine Commandos (MARCOs) deployed on counter-insurgency operations in J&K also figure in the list and includes a Shaurya Chakra to Petty Officer Chandrashekar who lost his life while rescuing a wounded buddy even whilst returning offensive fire and killing a terrorist. The other three — Lt. Vikas Dahiya, Leading Seaman Yaimachoul Singh and Leading Seaman Jaidev have been awarded Nausena Medal (Gallantry).

This year, the President approved 442 gallantry awards and other defence decorations to Armed Forces personnel and others. This includes one Ashok Chakra, 6 Kirti Chakras, 26 Shaurya Chakras, 3 Bar to Sena Medals (Gallantry), 118 Sena Medals (Gallantry), 3 Nao Sena Medals (Gallantry), 3 Vayu Sena Medals (Gallantry), 28 Param Vishisht Seva Medals, 4 Uttam Yudh Seva Medals, one Bar to Ati Vishisht Seva Medal, 50 Ati Vishisht Seva Medals, 16 Yudh Seva Medals, 2 Bar to Sena Medals (Devotion to Duty), 38 Sena Medals (Devotion to Duty), 8 Nao Sena Medals (Devotion to Duty), 14 Vayu Sena Medals (Devotion to Duty), 2 Bar to Vishisht Seva Medals and 119 Vishisht Seva Medals .

In addition, 19 Mention-In-Despatches have also been announced for participating in different operations like Op Rakshak, Op Meghdoot, Op Hifazat and Op Rhino.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 26 Jan 2010 11:20

A very young officer of the Army Education Corps received a posthumous Shaurya Chakra this r-day.

IC-70145 LT SATBIR SINGH, SM, AEC, 12 MLI (POSTHUMOUS)

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Jan 2010 12:44

ASPuar wrote:A very young officer of the Army Education Corps received a posthumous Shaurya Chakra this r-day.

IC-70145 LT SATBIR SINGH, SM, AEC, 12 MLI (POSTHUMOUS)

The officer must have been on deputation to the Infantry Unit. Which brings me to the question:Do officers opt for AEC from the academies?

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Jan 2010 12:59

Major Mohit Sharma of 1 Para (Special Forces), Major D Sreeram Kumar of 30 Assam Rifles and Havildar Rajesh Kumar of 11 Rajputana Rifles will be honoured with Ashok Chakra, the country’s highest peace time gallantry medal, on Republic Day on Tuesday.

Did Major Mohit lay down his life in the encounter which claimed 7-8 of our SF personnel somewhere near Kupwara? IIRC,there was a huge debate on BR about the massive loss of SF in this encounter.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 Jan 2010 13:13

^^^Yes that was the incident. That started off the QuikClot donation project.

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Jan 2010 13:33

Names of four Marine Commandos (MARCOs) deployed on counter-insurgency operations in J&K also figure in the list and includes a Shaurya Chakra to Petty Officer Chandrashekar who lost his life while rescuing a wounded buddy even whilst returning offensive fire and killing a terrorist. The other three — Lt. Vikas Dahiya, Leading Seaman Yaimachoul Singh and Leading Seaman Jaidev have been awarded Nausena Medal (Gallantry).

I wonder if the above mentioned warriors figure in the pic here : MARCOs in J&K

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 26 Jan 2010 16:31

rohitvats wrote:
ASPuar wrote:A very young officer of the Army Education Corps received a posthumous Shaurya Chakra this r-day.

IC-70145 LT SATBIR SINGH, SM, AEC, 12 MLI (POSTHUMOUS)

The officer must have been on deputation to the Infantry Unit. Which brings me to the question:Do officers opt for AEC from the academies?

No, there is a seperate "Tech-AEC" entry, for which you have to have a masters degree in a specified subject. Although they go through SSB and IMA like anyone else. This is the first I have heard of an AEC offr being killed in the line of duty. Although they are attached to units, it is usually as Batallion Education Officer, and they dont do combat duties, at least not that I knew of.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 26 Jan 2010 17:02

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... ppform.pdf
http://www.upscportal.com/civilservices ... tober-2009

Seems like the AEC entry is part of the TGC entry for post grads. Since the officer was still a lieutenant, it might be a case of he being on a compulsory attachment as with other technical officers of TGC entry. Perhaps RayC sir could throw some light on it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jan 2010 17:39

Hari Sud wrote: I did not give permission to any of you fools to post my paper on this website.

<snip>

Suggestions to improve are always welcomed.

I do not wish to thank any of you.

Hari Sud
Toronto, Canada.

I have a suggestion. Go wash your mouth sir.

One cannot post paper on a web forum. One can only hyperlink a digital copy on a web server. You can add that fact to the fiction that your readers swallow.

I hereby give you permission to post what I write wherever you like, under your name if you wish. Gratitude is not required. Neither is an IQ over 80.

What I write gets translated into 4 languages and posted all over the internet too. Typing stuff is so easy. It's the EQ that's difficult to come by. No?

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 26 Jan 2010 18:09

Hari Sud wrote:Suggestions to improve are always welcomed. Unsavoury comments are unwelcomed.

AoA to that.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 27 Jan 2010 10:54

Uttam Yudh Sena Medal for Lt. Gen. Swamy

Lieutenant General R.K. Swamy, Chief of Staff at the Headquarters of the Southern Command, was conferred with the Uttam Yudh Seva Medal by the President on the Republic Day for his distinguished command of a vital corps handling the operations on the LoC, as well as counter-insurgency in the Jammu & Kashmir.
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Rajput · Post by **Rajput** » 27 Jan 2010 10:56

Military Tribunal to hear Kargil war cases

What's this all about? Anyone more knowledgeable care to comment?

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 27 Jan 2010 18:23

Sukhna land scam: Antony recommends court martial of Gen Prakash

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 27 Jan 2010 19:38

Brilliant. Antony has gone nuts. Or, he is in receipt of some very poor advice indeed.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Jan 2010 21:08

ASPuar wrote:Brilliant. Antony has gone nuts. Or, he is in receipt of some very poor advice indeed.

Boy, Mr Clean is really turning out to be a Mr. Disaster for the armed forces. Now, the armed forces will be realizing how the MHA babus had felt under Shivraj Patil.

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 27 Jan 2010 21:59

@ ASP, Ray, Sum

Since this thing broke out I've posted quite a bit on this. May be I can go on to brag that may I spent quite some time digging info on this and making long posts.

Sadly I had never doubted this outcome.

I only wish to highlight one simple fact. Lt Gen AP was to retire on JAN 31st. May be just May be he should have been allowed to fade away. I'm not here to defend the guilty, nor I'm saying that there could have been no possible culability. But fairness demands that punishment befits the crime, if ever there was any.

Its my hope and sincere prayer that atleast now the bad blood be allowed to die down and we get down to the actual business of soldiering. VKS's resume looks impressive. Hope we see better days ahead.

vila · Post by **vila** » 27 Jan 2010 23:12

Edited.. No name calling. ramana

CalvinH · Post by **CalvinH** » 27 Jan 2010 23:44

Why should he be allowed to fade away when all other including Lt Gen Rath will be facing court martial. Just because he is so close to the retirement date. If he is guilty like others than he should meet the same punishment. I see the current COAS has tried his level best to delay the inevitable for him lowering his own credibility in the process. If he is allowed to retire on Jan 31 than it wont be fair unless you follow the same for others who are convicted with him.

negi · Post by **negi** » 28 Jan 2010 01:53

Yep in the larger interest of the IA and country at large everyone involved should be treated with the same yardstick . If there are a few institutions which still evoke feeling of respect in the hearts of the general public IA is one of them and I am afraid such incidents do not add to its reputation . Remember we are not talking about a civil case so the semantics are different in services allegations of above nature are enough to warrant a serious inquiry which often results into a court martial of the individual once charges are proven and again things move fast as far as services are concerned in this case since IA's deputy chief himself is involved we are seeing too much media glare and political turmoil around this issue otherwise case would have been long closed by now.

Rajput · Post by **Rajput** » 28 Jan 2010 02:40

But we all know what will happen: he'll be court-martialled and given some sentence.
And then he'll go to Delhi HC and demand relief.
The Delhi HC will step in and make a mess of it.

In the end, he'll get away scot-free, after a lot of laundry being put out in the public.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be CM'd, but the HC/SC should stay out of it. Let the Army deal with it.

At the same time: I hope the Press points out the difference between Army's handling of this
case, and what happens when IAS/IPS officers are accused of corruption.

In the words of Prez O, I hope they turn it into a "teachable moment".
( Though, knowing the utter lack of professionalism in the Indian mass media, I doubt that it'll happen... )

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 28 Jan 2010 09:58

Of course, if the military brass are at fault then should be sorted out. The military does it always.

How about the politicians and bureaucrats? How do they escape?

negi · Post by **negi** » 28 Jan 2010 10:03

Yes they escape but then do they command similar respect and trust as the IA as far as common man is concerned ?

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 28 Jan 2010 10:24

negi wrote:Yes they escape but then do they command similar respect and trust as the IA as far as common man is concerned ?

I don't think respect of the 'common man' is that important when you have a few hundred/thousand crores stashed away in a Swiss bank account.

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 28 Jan 2010 11:26

Mods, please delete/edit this post if it goes beyond the realm of acceptable.

Why should he be allowed to fade away when all other including Lt Gen Rath will be facing court martial. Just because he is so close to the retirement date. If he is guilty like others than he should meet the same punishment. I see the current COAS has tried his level best to delay the inevitable for him lowering his own credibility in the process.

I'm going to speculate now, though I would love to be proven wrong with some strong counter arguments.

This entire episode to me is about poilitics, power politics.

The current COAS and the COAS designate do not see eye to eye, since long especially since the COAS designate being glossed over for the position of VCOAS. Right after Lt Gen Bharadwaj was appointed VCOAS there were media reports of missppropriations against him during his previous commnad (Outlook Magazine)

Then the palyers bide their time waiting for the right opprutunity to strike. The fact that The current COAS has by then proven to be a little shaky when faced with a hostile media and a non supportive MoD helps.

Then comes the right time, the current COAS is about to retire. Then comes Sukna. A case of a piece of land owned not by the Army but by the State Govt. It was all about a subsequently withdrawn NOC. Which newspaper gets wind of it the first. "The Telegraph", the ToI equivalent from the East unfortunately from the ABP group other wise well known for their vernacular publication. Then picked by NDTV then the whole world.

Why is that the "The Telegraph" gets a head start in such Army related stories is thought provoking. Be it a small disturbance with BRO brass to now this.

What do you do to ensure your position when you think that the current incumbent might create obstacles in your path. Discredit him by targetting people close to him.

Then starts a series of sustained leaks about findings and half baked accussations. The media plays it up and in its usual 3 minute capsule manner tries and indicts the accused as guilty.

By now the COAS has been reduced to defending his role and has lost credibility with MoD. (There was even a report on the venerable "The Telegraph" detailing how Antony gave DK a cold shoulder when he had gone to his residence to wish him, planted - may be)

Now the path is more or less clear - what does the Govt do to ensure least bit of controversy. Take a tough line on the accused. Appoint the senior most infantry officer as the COAS designate. Mission Accomplished.

To the more important point - Were AP, Rath et al actually guilty of improper conduct?? May be the Army needs to be a little more forth coming.

There has been a clear winner and he by the looks of it appears quite capable of politics, diplomacy and soldiering. His resume is impressive. Hope that at least now we have strong leadership

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Jan 2010 12:05

^^^ And let me add another data point: The NOC was issued and subsequently withdrawn in Feb'09 on objection from Eastern Command. The 'scam' and irregularities began to be examined in end of Q3-start of Q4. At a very opportune time when the 33 Corps commander had already been appointed as DCOAS and was on his way out. Any guesses why the Eastern Command and GOC-in-C were sitting on the files all this while?

And of all things, the COI proceedings were getting played out in media as if it was Indo-Pak world cup match. Some for sure is out to get the COAS.It is a pure hit job.

Please do not ask for source, for there are none that I can share.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 28 Jan 2010 12:13

WHere can one see this resume of the winner? Are his accompalishments detailed somewhere ?

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 28 Jan 2010 12:37

For Starters:

2 Rajput Regiment, Lt. Gen. Singh is a graduate of the Wellington-based Defence Services Staff College.

Besides graduating with Honours from the U.S. Army Infantry School, Georgia, he also attended the Rangers Course at Fort Benning, U.S., and the U.S. Army War College, Carlisle.

Lt. Gen. Singh has experience in counter-insurgency operations, Line of Control and high-altitude operations.

He was awarded the Yudh Sena Medal for his distinguished service in Sri Lanka.

He is also a recipient of PVSM and AVSM and one of the Honorary ADCs of the President of India.

From Official Sources:

http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTempl ... 9oTP3autM=

Rest from Chai Paani Sources

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 28 Jan 2010 12:53

rumour mongers also claim a jat vs non-jat angle to this whole affair.

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 28 Jan 2010 13:01

To tell you honestly, while I was reading up on stuff on this. I did infact come across some blogs claiming this. But I had neglected them thinking these were imaginations congured up by idle and perverted minds.

But if your Chai Pan waala are accurate then.... God save me

and more importantly the institution

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 28 Jan 2010 13:05

^^^
I hope not and in all probability they are rumour mongers.......
BTW OT but at what age approximately will an NDA/IMA passout become a Lt. Col after AVS committee report implementation?

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 28 Jan 2010 15:10

rohitvats wrote: Some for sure is out to get the COAS.It is a pure hit job.

Infantry tactics, eh?

Something a gunner cant defend against

kidoman · Post by **kidoman** » 28 Jan 2010 15:31

Some pics of our bravos on the front..
Link

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 28 Jan 2010 16:17

Rajput wrote:But we all know what will happen: he'll be court-martialled and given some sentence.
And then he'll go to Delhi HC and demand relief.
The Delhi HC will step in and make a mess of it.

In the end, he'll get away scot-free, after a lot of laundry being put out in the public.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be CM'd, but the HC/SC should stay out of it. Let the Army deal with it.

At the same time: I hope the Press points out the difference between Army's handling of this
case, and what happens when IAS/IPS officers are accused of corruption.

In the words of Prez O, I hope they turn it into a "teachable moment".
( Though, knowing the utter lack of professionalism in the Indian mass media, I doubt that it'll happen... )

Odd to say that he will "get away scot free", when through the blurr of the media trial, we dont even know what precisely it is, that he is apparently "guilty" of.

Of issuing an NoC for construction on land that does not belong to the army? (An NoC which was later retracted, even).

Note, that demands for punishment are a bit premature, when even the TRIAL hasnt happened yet. Media assuming a conclusion which is foregone?

From what I can tell, these charges wouldnt stand up for half an hour in a civil court. So you say that the HC will "make a mess of it"? What does that mean? That by examining the facts without falling prey to a media ruckus, if it finds that he isnt guilty, some sort of a mess has been made?

Apparently the court martial is no longer being viewed on BR as what it is, (a court of justice), but as some sort of mechanism of punishment, a forum for pronouncing sentence on a man who is already declared guilty.

Maybe the Court Martial will be influenced by the media storm created over these nonsensical charges (though I sincerely hope it wont). But the High Court certainly should not be.

As for the media storm generated by the court of inquiry, and the ministry of defence's shoddy defense of the services, remember, a court of inquiry was constituted against no less a person than Field Marshal SHFJ Manekshaw, when he was a major general, because he had run afoul of Krishna Menon, and BM Kaul.

A lot of political smears and pressure were put against him then too. If the CoI hadnt had the guts to say that there was nothing to object to in his conduct, we would never have had the architect of the '71 victory in the Chief's seat!

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 28 Jan 2010 16:23

sugriva wrote:rumour mongers also claim a jat vs non-jat angle to this whole affair.

Strange, considering that VK Singh is apparently a Rajput (not just from the Rajput regt, but also a Rajput himself). The credibility of the rumour mill seems to be low, to say the least.

It takes a cadet, post NDA, 14.5 years to become a Lt.Col.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 28 Jan 2010 18:54

ASPuar wrote:Of issuing an NoC for construction on land that does not belong to the army? (An NoC which was later retracted, even).

Without prejudging the case, this is not really any defence..A statutory approval/NOC is as "valuable" as ownership of assets in commercial projects..The environment ministry for example, owns no land, never had any licensing (in the license permit days) authorities..But it has remained a milch cow ministry, thanks to its veto powers due to its NOC that is a sine qua non for any industrial project..But the media circus on the case is really something, and has to be a result of insiders playing out the game..

On a slightly different note, this COAS's tenure will go down in IA's history as one of the more undistinguished ones..The Gen Panag affair also had dirty fumes of suspected corruption, and they were uncomfortably close to the Chief..And now this..Gen Kapoor's tenure might not be IAF's ACM Sareen or IN's Adm Ramdas/Bhagwat, but its not really been a phase that the organisation will look back with fond memories..