Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) - Dec 30 - 2009

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 28 Jan 2010 22:47

The saga continues:
Deccan Chargers deny signing Razzak, KKR interested

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2010 22:49

Gagan That is a sports thread issue. Please carry on in that thread.

Thanks, ramana

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 28 Jan 2010 23:18

Pak troops exchange sweets with Indians on R-day

Jammu: Pakistani troops extended greetings and exchanged sweets with Indian soldiers in two sectors along the Line of Control on Republic Day on Tuesday even as there were ceasefire violations by Pakistan border guards along the frontier in Jammu and Kashmir.

Pakistan Army personnel led by a Colonel-rank officer presented boxes of sweets to Indian Army officers at forward defence locations and crossing-points at Chakan-Da-Bagh and Tatapani in Poonch and Mendhar sectors along the LoC.

...

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 29 Jan 2010 01:07

Meeting India's military challenge ---- Munir Akram

During US Defence Secretary Gates' recent visit, we have again heard the refrain of our Western friends that terrorism and the Taliban, not India, pose an 'existential' threat to Pakistan.

But India's own actions and pronouncements belie these Western assertions. For the past year, India has refused to resume "composite dialogue" and has regularly threatened military action against Pakistan in the event of another Mumbai-like incident. And, while protesting loudly about pro-Kashmiri militant groups like the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, India has been busy fomenting dissension and insurgency in Balochistan, FATA and other parts of Pakistan.

Any lingering doubt about India's hostile intentions and policies towards Pakistan should have been set to rest by the new military doctrine outlined recently by the Indian army chief. General Kapoor identified five thrust areas for the Indian military build-up: the ability to fight a two-front war against Pakistan and China; optimise capacity to counter asymmetric and sub-conventional threats; enhance capabilities for strategic reach and "out-of-area operations from the Persian Gulf to the Malacca Straits; acquire strategic (intercontinental) and space-based capabilities and ballistic missile defenses, and ensure a technical edge over adversaries (that is, Pakistan and China).

The new doctrine reflects India's great power aspirations. But, the greatest danger for Pakistan emanates from the concept of the so-called 'Cold Start' strategy, propounded by General Kapoor, to mobilise and strike fast (within 96 hours) at Pakistan "under a WMD overhang". At its meeting on January 13, 2010, Pakistan's National Command Authority "took serious note of recent Indian statements about its capability to conduct conventional military strikes under a nuclear umbrella" describing this as "oblivious to the dangerous implications of adventurism in a nuclearised context."This is, of course, not the first time India has contemplated a limited war or a conventional attack against Pakistan after South Asia was nuclearised. Indian leaders and military officers have often threatened 'hot pursuit' and 'lightning strikes' against training camps across the LoC in Kashmir. But they could not ignore Pakistan's stance that no war between India and Pakistan could be conceived as a limited war. In 1987, and again in 2002, India contemplated a full-scale attack against Pakistan. On both occasions, India discovered that it did not have the capacity to overcome Pakistan's conventional defences.

Pakistan cannot, of course, afford to match India's military build up. Its response will have to be defensive, asymmetrical, innovative, and achieved at much lower cost. Pakistan's forces may need to do some tactical rethinking. For example, an Indian tank force can be more effectively destroyed by drones and missiles rather than a matching tank force. A large surface navy can be seriously damaged by submarines and mobile missile-boats. The eight Indian "battle groups" may be more mobile; but they would also be vulnerable to encirclement and destruction. Rather than spread themselves thin to defend the entire Eastern border, Pakistani forces could adopt an offensive-defensive strategy, focusing a thrust into Kashmir to bottle up half a million Indian troops there.

Following the post-Mumbai situation and the emergence of India's Cold Start strategy, Pakistan's armed forces have undertaken extensive war games to counter this threat. If the Indians have watched these closely, they should be clear in their minds that the danger of conventional adventurism escalating to the nuclear level cannot be ruled out. This was the general conclusion in 2002 -- confirmed among others by Pentagon war games. The Indo-Pakistan "composite dialogue" was restarted in 2003 on the basis of the mutual recognition that a military conflict between the two nuclear-armed countries was too dangerous to contemplate.

These objectives deserve the highest priority in Pakistan's response to India's new military doctrine. Pakistan's response should also be accompanied by robust diplomatic action. This should include:

[list]* A dialogue with China to coordinate an effective response to India's new doctrine and capabilities at the diplomatic, strategic and tactical level.

* Press India's weapons' suppliers to refrain from providing it with the capabilities to execute its "adventurist" strategy; and

* Activating efforts to promote a South Asia restraint regime that provides for nuclear restraint, conventional balance and resolution of conflicts, especially Kashmir.[/list]
[/b]
A clear and visible response by Pakistan is essential to convince India, and the international community, that Pakistan is determined to defend its independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity and that "cold start" could end in a hot finish.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jan 2010 01:12

Gagan wrote:Pak troops exchange sweets with Indians on R-day
Jammu: Pakistani troops extended greetings and exchanged sweets with Indian soldiers in two sectors along the Line of Control on Republic Day on Tuesday even as there were ceasefire violations by Pakistan border guards along the frontier in Jammu and Kashmir.

Pakistan Army personnel led by a Colonel-rank officer presented boxes of sweets to Indian Army officers at forward defence locations and crossing-points at Chakan-Da-Bagh and Tatapani in Poonch and Mendhar sectors along the LoC.

...

Would check the shortening used to make these sweets.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 29 Jan 2010 01:24

Good neighbours? ---- Ikram Sehgal

India's economic success relative to Pakistan's more pedestrian progress is to be admired. Unfortunately, total US support coupled with economic boom has inculcated unbridled arrogance. One does not expect humility from India, but certainly understanding and tolerance thereof. Approximately one-third of Pakistan's population, about 60 million, can be said to be really poor. The sobering thought is that India has 10 times more than that, 600 million. The media-hype perception of "Incredible India" has to contend with the reality of uplift of hundreds of millions to the lifestyle that their more affluent upscale fellow compatriots are used to. Let alone Pakistan, can India ever hope to accomplish this if, instead of peace, war breaks out with Pakistan? It is vitally important to foster "Aman ki Asha" (desire for peace), rather than "Jang ki Bhasha," the dialogue of war.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 29 Jan 2010 01:38

Cold and blinkered in London ---- Syed Talat Hussain

First, the world has to resolve its contradictory approach to Pakistan. Nowhere is this reflected more than in the manner the world treats Pakistan’s core security concerns. US Defence Secretary Robert Gates’ visit to India and Pakistan last week was a classic study in contradictory behaviour. He praised India’s role in Afghanistan and mouthed the usual rhetoric about Pakistan being the epicentre of global terrorism. And as if this was not bad enough, he decided on his own that India’s response was most measured and mature in the aftermath of the sad episode of the Mumbai attacks, and that India’s patience could legitimately run out in case a repeat or a similar event were to take place.

At a general level, no one was surprised at a US diplomat massaging India’s ego and running down Pakistan. This has been the pattern for long. But what was really surprising was the timing of it all: just when Pakistan is poised to become the world’s best bet to restore some sanity to Afghanistan’s madness, a top-ranking US official chooses to encourage Islamabad’s traditional enemy to keep the heat on.

The second thing that must happen for Pakistan to play its part in Afghanistan is for the world to recognise that Islamabad has solid, long-term interests in Afghanistan, which cannot be put on the backburner just because the world is in a blazing hurry to create a success story out of the mess it has made here in the last nine years. These legitimate interests include a non-hostile Afghanistan region across Pakistan’s frontiers, stretching from the east to the south. It also includes a desire to see all shades of public and political opinion — regardless of the length of their beards or their dress codes — in Afghanistan being given their due share in power.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jan 2010 01:41

Actually those are illegitimate interests of TSP in Afgahnistan. It still occupies illegally the land East of Durand Line which went kaput after expiry of the treaty in the 90s. First vacate that land and then peaceful pashtuns can be discussed.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 29 Jan 2010 02:30

paquis must be laffing their musharrafs off, unkil is almost on his knees and out of strategicdepthistan and the yindus are cowering in their dhotis, nice topi wearing all around...

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Jan 2010 04:15

And so the charade starts all over again till the next attack...

Menon on job, signs of thaw - ISLAMABAD TRIP ON PC’S RADAR, IPL ON LIPS

...
Sources said home minister P. Chidambaram was likely to visit Islamabad to attend a three-day conference of South Asia’s internal security ministers from February 20, provided Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and foreign minister S.M. Krishna agreed.

Government sources attributed the thaw partly to Menon, considered one of the architects of the Sharm-el-Sheikh declaration and a proponent of the “good neighbourhood” line.

Also contributing to this thaw were Pakistan Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani’s appeal not to let bilateral ties become “hostage to one incident”, that is 26/11, and Pakistani investigators’ corroboration yesterday of Ajmal Kasab’s statements.
...
Gilani said the process started at Sharm-el-Sheikh was “stalled only because of Indian public pressure and Parliament” and added that remaining hostage to 26/11 would only benefit terrorists.

While New Delhi and Islamabad continue to accuse each other of cease-fire violations, there are signs of an easing of tensions. The two foreign ministers are to meet on the sidelines of the London conference on Afghanistan that started today.
...
...

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 29 Jan 2010 04:23

Lalmohan wrote:paquis must be laffing their musharrafs off, unkil is almost on his knees and out of strategicdepthistan and the yindus are cowering in their dhotis, nice topi wearing all around...

As diabolical as their behavior has been, but if end results and not means are what matter, we have to grudginly hand it to the Pakis. From being a basket case country, whose only chief source of "strength" is soosai bummers; they have been able to make a fool of the billion next door and befriended the power brokers in US/UK.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 29 Jan 2010 04:29

Yes Pakis have demonstrated that India cannot even ignore them. A victory for Pakistan.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 29 Jan 2010 04:31

Well it has, and it seems the Pakistani government, PCB, and the cricketers themselves had a knee-jerk response to the IPL fiasco. Now the real comedy will begin as our cricketers try to wriggle out of what the ministers have got them into. First came the misplaced call for unity, now comes the every-man-for-himself clamour.
It took two cunningly placed comments, one from Shah Rukh Khan, the owner of Kolkata Knight Riders, and the other from the Australian assistant coach of Rajasthan, Darren Berry. Shah Rukh said he would have gone for Abdur Razzaq while Berry said they had Umar Akmal in their plans. Get it, guys? No? Read on.

Before the auction, with catastrophic assumption and arrogance, Shahid Afridi had said his preference would be to play for Kolkata or Rajasthan. Now are you reading between the lines? Shahid who? In my books, this oversight will go down as the most pleasantly communicated snub of all time.

The cricketing patriots have already realised the future cost of demanding self-respect. Nationalistic fervour has already been replaced by an attitude of appeasement. When a friend asked if the IPL would really be blocked, I responded, “it’s a matter of days before the threat is forgotten as cable operators realise that by blocking the IPL they’ll lose out on a couple of million rupees in revenues that advertising will generate.”

Plus, the players will realise that their ire has been hijacked by the media for sound bytes, by the ministers for popularity bytes, ex-cricketers for news bytes, the PCB rebels for chairman-seat-claim bytes and the government for vote bytes. For the sake of jingoistic points (which they need after doubling the prices of sugar, petrol, gas and electricity in a matter of 18 months), politicians have unnecessarily given a matter worth sidelining global publicity and brought their own shortcoming into sharp focus.

Now the cricketers, led by Afridi, are rushing to douse the embers as they realise they’ve been made the pawns in a battle of the bytes. In a press release on Tuesday, Afridi expresses his willingness to forgive and forget, claims he will happily visit India to play in the IPL, and in a way snubs both his chairman and the sports minister, who had announced that no Pakistani players would participate in the IPL again.

Chances are, Afridi probably had this change of heart when the SA Redbacks made it clear that he could not share the 3.3-million-dollar winner’s purse in IPL Champions League later this year in the event that the team won.

Some sort of dressing down after the IPL fiasco – and Pakistan’s reaction to it – was inevitable. It is ironic, though, that the cricketing powers that be are now claiming that they have been vindicated. That’s stupid. The statements of Shah Rukh and Indian Home Minister Chidambaram merely confirm what they claimed on January 19: that there is no conspiracy by the government of India and that this is a private affair of an Indian company. Read their statements in totality; they felt threatened by local nationalists and the responsibility to ensure security. Shah Rukh in particular talks of huge revenue losses in that eventuality.

The Indians have also learned diplomatic skills from their former English masters. They see the big picture and know full well that, by now, saner voices have prevailed in Pakistan. For obvious reasons, the last thing the Indians want is a Pakistan with a bruised ego and a score to settle. After all, they have just received permission from the Pakistan government to send Indian food items across the border without requiring prior permission. And so Mr. Chidambaram steps in with his soothing words.

KELIK

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 29 Jan 2010 05:32

x-post
Clear views from the Afghan summit

In the regional context, India's refusal or inability to respond substantively to efforts to reboot its peace process with Pakistan is deeply troubling for western policymakers. Another Mumbai-style terrorist attack, blamed on Pakistan-based militants, would spark "limited war" between the two countries, most probably in Kashmir, a well-placed diplomat predicted this week. That could spell disaster for the Afghan strategy. Yet it seems to some that India is waiting for the bombers to strike again.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 29 Jan 2010 06:01

pgbhat wrote:x-post
Clear views from the Afghan summit
In the regional context, India's refusal or inability to respond substantively to efforts to reboot its peace process with Pakistan is deeply troubling for western policymakers. Another Mumbai-style terrorist attack, blamed on Pakistan-based militants, would spark "limited war" between the two countries, most probably in Kashmir, a well-placed diplomat predicted this week. That could spell disaster for the Afghan strategy. Yet it seems to some that India is waiting for the bombers to strike again.

No, the bombers are waiting for the green signal from GHQ in Rawilpindi with wink wink nudge nudge from Washington & London.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jan 2010 06:12

A_Gupta wrote:Is there an article that uses an array of Pakistani writing to illustrate Pakistani attitudes? For instance, that SDRE - Short Dark Rice Eaters - is not something that BRFers dreamed up, but is amply found in mainstream Pakistani articles? The purpose is to lay this out for a Western audience that is inclined to think that Indians are paranoid about Pakistan, and will invent anything to put Pakistan down. Also, for that audience, the article will have to lay off much desi slang (or explain it properly).

Thanks in advance!

Apart from Benazir Bhutto's memors for which I was unable to find a cite, and numerous refercnes to black, thin weak Hindus on th internet, the only ref I was able to find (for my ebook) is below (Paki Defence journal)

http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/nov/pak-army.htm

The "Martial Races Theory" in reality was an Imperial gimmick to boost the ego of the cannon fodder. Various British writers like Philip Mason frankly admitted that the real reason for selective recruitment was political reliability in crisis situations which the Punjabis had exhibited during the 1857-58 Bengal Army rebellion.47 Another British officer thought that "Martial Races Theory" had a more sentimental and administrative basis rather than anything to do with real martial superiority. C.C Trench thus wrote, “Reasons for preferring northerners were largely racial. To Kiplings contemporaries, the taller and fairer a native, the better man he was likely to be…There was a general preference for the wild over the half educated native as being less addicted to unwholesome political thinking…Brahmins had been prominent in the mutiny, and their diet and prejudices made difficulties on active service

A documentation of this is a sociological exercise we can do by digging up instances of Paki attitudes on the net.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 29 Jan 2010 06:31

CRamS wrote:I didn't catch Obama's speech in its entirety, but caught the part where he spoke of the so called 'war on terror'. Not a word about TSP. Or did I miss something?

Actually, Ombaba did say something about not letting nukes fall in the hands of terrorists. He was probably referring to TSP (since I dont know of any other terrorist nation), but did not name them.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jan 2010 06:52

Upon doing some searching for info I find that a single major source quoted allover the internet for the tall fair Paki used to be on Geocities and has now been taken down, I will post the entire retrieved info here for whoever wants to archive it

The Author is a chap called Hayat Khan and the web page was
http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/differences.html
I have been unable to locate caches of this page

Anyhow from here I got a quote of that page:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-ev ... dians.html

Differences between Pakistanis and Indians

Language/linguistics:

About 99% of languages spoken in Pakistan are Indo-Iranian (sub-branches: 75% Indo-Aryan and 24% Iranian), a branch of Indo-European family of languages. All languages of Pakistan are written in the Perso-Arabic script, with significant vocabulary derived from Arabic and Persian. Punjabi, Seraiki, Sindhi, Pashto, Urdu, Balochi, Kashmiri, etc. are the languages spoken in Pakistan.

About 69% of languages spoken in India are Indo-Iranian (sub-branch: Indo-Aryan), 26% are Dravidian, and 5% are Sino-Tibetan and Austro-Asiatic, all unrelated/distinct family of languages. Most languages in India are written in Brahmi- derived scripts such as Devangari, Gurmukhi, Tamil, etc. Hindi, Bengali, Gujarati, Marathi, Telugu, Tamil, Malayalam, Assamese, Punjabi, Naga, and many others are the mother-tongue languages spoken in each of India's states.

As you can see both countries have distinct linguistic identities. Even in the case of Punjabi, while it is the mother-tongue of a majority in Pakistan, it represents the mother-tongue of only 2% Indians. Besides, Pakistani Punjabi (Western Punjabi) is distinct in its vocabulary/dialect and writing script when compared to Indian Punjabi (Eastern Punjabi). Another thing to keep in mind is that Indian Punjabi is mostly spoken by Sikhs who consider themselves distinct from the rest of Indians and had been fighting for independence. In the case of Urdu/Hindi, while Hindi is the mother- tongue of a majority in India, Urdu is the mother-tongue of only 8% Pakistanis. Besides, they both are distinct languages, Urdu has a writing script and strong vocabulary derived from Arabic and Persian, whereas Hindi has strong vocabulary derived from Sanskrit and is written in Devangari script. Most Pakistanis can understand English and watch American/Brit movies but that does not make them British/American, same is the case with Hindi.

Race/genetics: This Topic is Important so Please read carefully

About 70% of Pakistanis are Caucasoid by race, 20% Australoid- Negroid, and 10% Mongoloid in their overall genetic composition. Majority of Pakistanis are tall with fair skin complexion, similar to Middle Eastern and Mediterranean peoples. While the racial features of each ethnic group are not uniform, Pashtuns are the most Caucasoid, followed by Kashmiris, Baluchis, north Punjabis, and then Sindhis, Seraikis, Urdu-speakers, etc. The Australoid-Negroid and Mongoloid racial elements are quite infused within the dominant Caucasoid genes among Pakistanis, however there are some that have retained their distinct racial characteristics.

About 50% of Indians are Australoid-Negroid by race, 35% Caucasoid, and 15% Mongoloid in their overall genetic composition. Majority of Indians are darker in their skin complexion, with wider noses, shorter heights, etc. The Australoid-Dravidoid racial element dominates among the lower caste Indians, South Indians, Eastern and Central Indians, etc. The Caucasoid racial element dominates in Northwest Indians and higher caste Indians. The Mongoloid racial element dominates in Northeast Indians and border regions with China.

Obviously, both countries have distinct racial identities. A common international perception based on observance of physical features is that most Pakistanis are lighter skinned than most Indians. Most Pakistanis resemble the looks of peoples inhabiting on its western borders and beyond. Indeed, many Pakistanis also resemble many Northwest Indians or higher caste Indians, but those are a minority in India. Similarly, a few people of Pakistan resemble peoples of South India, lower caste Indians, Northeast India, etc. but they are a minority in Pakistan. And besides, let's say, if some Saudis look similar to the French that does not make them one people, same applies here between Indians and Pakistanis.

Culture/Traditions:

Pakistanis have a distinct culture, traditions and customs. Shalwar kamiz is the dress commonly worn, both by men and women in Pakistan. Pakistani food is rich in meat (including beef), whereas wheat is the main staple. Pashto, Punjabi, Balochi, Sindhi, etc. music and dances are distinctly unique with their own melodies, instruments, patterns and styles. Pakistani arts in metal work, tiles, furniture, rugs, designs/paintings, literature, calligraphy, etc. are distinct and diverse. Pakistani architecture is unique with its Islamic styles. The manners and lifestyles are guided by a blend of Islam and local traditions.

India's commonly worn dress is dhoti for men and sari for women. Indian food is mostly vegetarian, with wheat as the main staple in the north and west, and rice is the main staple in south and east. Hindi, Gujarati, Tamil, Bengali, etc. music and dances are distinctly unique. So are Indian arts in the many areas. Indian architecture is unique in its mostly Hindu styles. The manners and lifestyles of most Indians are guided by Hinduism.

Pakistanis and Indians definitely have distinct cultures of their own. Some Indian women wear shalwar kamiz, but that was introduced by the ancestors of Pakistanis. Many Pakistani food dishes are absent in Indian cuisine and vice versa, and if some dishes are shared, they were also introduced by the ancestors of Pakistanis (like naan, tikka, kabob, biryani/pulao, etc.). There is barely any Hindu architectural influence in Pakistan (Gandhara is Graeco- Buddhist and Harappan is distinct), but significant influences by the ancestors of Pakistanis can be found in India. The lives of most Pakistanis are shaped by Islam, whereas the lives of most Indians are shaped by Hinduism.

History/background:

Pakistanis are a blend of their Harappan, Aryan, Persian, Greek, Saka, Parthian, Kushan, White Hun, Arab, Turkic, Afghan, and Mughal heritage. Waves of invaders and migrants settled down in Pakistan through out the centuries, influencing the locals and being absorbed among them.

Most Indians are a blend of their heritage of Dravidoid-Australoid hunters and gatherers, and Aryans (in north). Northwest Indians have a heritage from Harappans, Aryans, Sakas, and White Huns. Northeast Indians have a heritage based from Mongoloid hunters and gatherers. Also, Turks, Afghans and Mughals ruled north India for centuries.

Pakistan and India have a distinct history and background. The region of Pakistan was never part of India except for 500+ years under the Muslims, and 100 years each under the Mauryans and the British. If any thing, it were the ancestors of Pakistanis who colonized north/northwest India, among them were Harappans, Aryans, Sakas, Kushans, White Huns, Turks, Afghans, and Mughals.

Geography:

Pakistan is geographically unique, with Indus river and its tributaries as its main water supply. It is bordered by the Hindu Kush and Sulaiman Mountain ranges in the west, Karakoram mountain range in the north, Sutlej river and Thar desert in east, and Arabian Sea in the south. The country in its present form was created by the Pakistanis themselves out of the British Raj, the Indus people themselves who are now mostly Muslims.

India is geographically unique, with Ganges river and its tributaries as its water supply in the north, and other river systems in the rest of the country. Himalayas as its northern boundary, Sutlej river and Thar desert as its western border, the jungles of northeast as its eastern border, and Indian Ocean in the south. The mountains in the central-south India are the great divide between Dravidians of the south and Indo-Aryans of the north. The country itself was created by the British, a direct descendent of the remnants of British Raj.

It is evident that India and Pakistan have their own unique geographical environments. Pakistan is located at the crossroads of South Asia, Central Asia, and the Middle East. On the other hand, India is located at the core of South Asia.

----- Article contributed by Hayat Khan

Source: Differences between Pakistan and India

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jan 2010 06:56

http://websitepakistan.com/kalash/kalash1.htm

Quite a number of mountain tribes in Pakistan have Greek blood, and Kalash, with its short dark and tall fair people is no exception. It is likely that the difference between the dark, olive skinned and the tall, Aryan-type Kalash women results from a difference in class and ancestry. This statement is supported by the way they reacted when photographed by a tourist; the former was not hesitant in demanding money while the latter had tossed back her head at the prospect. Her manner and appearance showed that she belonged to some aristocratic family.

Pakis are a riot!!

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 29 Jan 2010 07:15

The Hindu with the full interview of Groper.
Pitching for composite dialogue
After reading his responses, anyone still feels that 'dialogue is the way out'? He is oh so transparent!

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 29 Jan 2010 07:26

Pgbhat Wrote
Pakistan's forces may need to do some tactical rethinking. For example, an Indian tank force can be more effectively destroyed by drones and missiles rather than a matching tank force. A large surface navy can be seriously damaged by submarines and mobile missile-boats. The eight Indian "battle groups" may be more mobile; but they would also be vulnerable to encirclement and destruction. Rather than spread themselves thin to defend the entire Eastern border, Pakistani forces could adopt an offensive-defensive strategy, focusing a thrust into Kashmir to bottle up half a million Indian troops there.

Lifted word for word from Deff 'n Dumb.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jan 2010 07:40

CRamS wrote: we have to grudginly hand it to the Pakis.

Tsk tsk! Why grudgingly? Let is cheerfully hand it to them. Sad to see you of all people being grudging in your recognition of Pakistani victory.

amit wrote: Watch the fun folks and don't get depressed.

What do you mean "don't get depressed"? Getting depressed is my birthright and I demand that I should be allowed to get depressed without people telling me not to do that! Please delete your post and tender an apology.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 Jan 2010 09:15

Lakhvi not the only one: PC to Pak

NEW DELHI: Home minister P Chidambaram on Thursday sent out a clear message to Pakistan that it was time that it stopped jihad-whitewashing mock
drills and took firm action against handlers of Mumbai attackers.

A day after Pakistani investigators named Zaki-ur Rehman Lakhvi as mastermind, the home minister said that unless Pakistan brings to book other masterminds, India will have to conclude that the neighbour is dragging its feet. “Lakhvi is one of the masterminds. There are others. We know their names and we think Pakistan also knows their names. If they do not bring others to trial, then I would have to conclude reluctantly and regrettably that they are still dragging their feet,” he told reporters. The minister was obviously referring to Islamabad’s attempts to shield the head of the terror mall, Hafiz Saeed.

...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Jan 2010 10:41

Malayappan wrote:The Hindu with the full interview of Groper.
Pitching for composite dialogue
After reading his responses, anyone still feels that 'dialogue is the way out'? He is oh so transparent!

I wish to highlight two questions and their answers by Gilani saheb.

Q: What about India’s demand that Mr. Hafiz Sayeed, the head of the Jama’at-ud-Da’wah, must be tried and prosecuted?

He’s already under trial.

This is a total and unadulterated lie and perfidy. This ranks along the same lie that 'JuD is banned or that Musharraf banned several terrorist tanzeems on Aug 15, 2002 after promising India that Pakistani soil would not be used for terrorism directed against us.

Prof. Hafeez Saeed was put under house arrest after the UNSC resolution but was released by the Lahore High Court in June 2009. The LHC judges felt, while disposing of the case of Hafeez Saeed, that the UNSC's Al Qaeda/Taliban Sanctions Committee's declaration of JuD as a global terrorist organization and its chief Hafeez Saeed as a terrorist were 'ultra vires' and Pakistan was not bound by it. They also questioned as to why Pakistan alone was expected to implement UN resolutions when India has not been (referring to the J&K ceasefire resolution). The Pakistani government appealed to the Supreme Court just before the July 16 Sharm-el-Sheikh joint meeting just to show off that it was pursuing Prof. Hafeez Saeed's case vigorously. However, Rehman Malik, without being worried about the propriety of commenting on a sub-judice case openly said that "Hafeez Saeed will remain free because there was no proof against him". In the meanwhile, the Advocate General of the Punjab told the SC that his State would like to withdraw from the case as Prof. Hafeez Saeed was arrested under the directives of the federal government and it was for the federal government to press the charges as the State government had nothing to with it. Even while this was going on, on Aug. 3, the Supreme Court indefinitely postponed the hearing because the Punjab's Advocate General had to resign on Aug. 2, following the Supreme Court's ruling on July 31, 2009 of the illegality of Musharraf's declaration of Emergency on Nov. 3, 2007 and all appointments made thereof. It is now six months, a new Advocate General is in place and yet there is no near-term likelihood of resurrection of this case in the SC. What our Foreign Minister termed as 'an acid test' in July continues to remain so.

On August 27, 2009, the Interpol issued a Red Corner Notice for Prof Hafeez Saeed for his involvement in the 26/11 carnage following a NBW issued by the Mumbai Court hearing the case. To thwart this, on Sep. 17, 2009, Pakistan house-arrested Prof. Hafeez Saeed, this time for making a 'jihadi' speech and collecting funds from jihad. He had earlier attended an iftaar party thrown by the Pakistani Army for which he was a special invitee. Our Home Minister ecstatically said "even a half-step is a good step". A few days later, even that half-step evaporated as it was announced that Prof. Hafeez Saeed was merely under 'protective custody' for his own security.

That is where, Prof Hafeez Saeed's case stands today, effectively stonewalled.

Q: Would your government be open to India’s request on Hafiz Sayeed...?

One thing I must tell you, when we met Manmohan Singh it was a good meeting and he really wanted to discuss all [the] core issues including water, Sir Creek, Siachen, Kashmir — including interference in Balochistan {Long live SeS and the Indian chanakianness}.

So, from Kashmir as a core issue, it has now been widened to include everything that the Pakistanis can imagine of. All are core issues.

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 29 Jan 2010 11:40

munna wrote:1)Ability of BJP to get its act together and pose a threat to GOI by credible electoral showing and thus re-enabling the diffused pressure points

Consider any opposition from BJP neutralized, so your first barrier has already been crossed. It has been done very effectively with utmost care to not surface the real face. BJP has been cornered in a very difficult situation. On one hand they cannot publicly dilute their right of the center stance and their followers are being instigated by hidden faces to attack Christians specifically in states that are electing BJP governments or where BJP has good chance of getting her members elected.

Earlier at least a section of Christians would not have mind to vote for BJP based on other candidates and other factors. Now with their mind disturbed by these attacks they are unlikely to vote for the party. So BJP providing credible opposition to keep alive checks and balances in the system is a link that has been weakened.

Also I do not see why this fixation on BJP, not that you have ever said so. Supporting any one party just because some outside elements trying to control India's foreign policy through Congress party is really self defeating. Indians will be effectively divided in half with that. Any measures to prop up other part against congress will consume so much energy and resources that its implementation will become a herculean task and hence ineffective.

Best and most effective way is to infiltrate Congress and identify "elements" to either confront them or even "stop" them if required. This is exactly what rajmata is doing.

amit · Post by **amit** » 29 Jan 2010 13:13

shiv wrote:What do you mean "don't get depressed"? Getting depressed is my birthright and I demand that I should be allowed to get depressed without people telling me not to do that! Please delete your post and tender an apology.

Shiv ji,

You are too much, I actually spilled my coffee on my keyboard!

But the more I see the IPL saga unfolding the more fun I'm having. The blog link posted by Rupesh is very illuminating.

I'm sure the whole thing was unplanned but look a the situation which the Paki cricketing herrows are in due to their tactical brilliance. Like in India they are worshipped by the aam abdul. And the aam abdul stood by them when the "Hindoo Baniya" insulted them.

Now if they run back when the same "Baniya" shows some greenbacks then what will the aam abdul think?

And after that idiot Tanvir's remark, I'm sure the likes of Shiv Sena will not let anyone forget the racist remarks (and I would be rooting for Shiv Sena in this case). So me thinks it's bye-bye for some of these turds.

On the other hand, I think folks like Shoaib Akthar and perhaps even Razzak should be given a chance. I know Akthar is a boor but one thing I'll give to him, he has, as far as I know, resisted the fundamentalist urge sweeping the Paki dressing room, often to the detriment to his career.

And Oh yes, talking about depression and fatalism, why do I get reminded of Marvin the Android after reading some posts here?

I guess some folks need to carry their towels when come to this forum. At least, as Shri Douglas Adam ji used to say, that will prevent them from panicking!

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 29 Jan 2010 13:51

amit wrote:Now if they run back when the same "Baniya" shows some greenbacks then what will the aam abdul think?

Something in Vikram Sood's blog got me thinking.

Pakistan will, in the next few years, become increasingly irrational in its attitude, and flail before it threatens to fail

We still have not understood the mango paki and are still making the mistake of dealing with them within the framework of logic and reason. Honor, shame, friendship and enmity do not apply to the Pakis in the way they apply to sane people. If you troll through the unmentionable forum the exchanges go along the lines of

Indians are racist!! They will never take any Pakistani player!!

No they are not, Akram is a coach

Thats because they cannot produce a player like Akram!!

To answer your question, If they run back when the same "Baniya" shows some greenbacks, the aam abdul will think that inspite of India's hatred, SDREs have accepted that Pakis are TFTA, and came back groveling with money to beg for their services.

Shame cannot be produced this way. Some other way of giving a jhappad across the face should be invented. It needs some thinking.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 29 Jan 2010 13:54

amit wrote: But the more I see the IPL saga unfolding the more fun I'm having. The blog link posted by Rupesh is very illuminating. I'm sure the whole thing was unplanned but look a the situation which the Paki cricketing herrows are in due to their tactical brilliance.

IDSA COMMENT
The Strange Ways of Indian Soft Power ----- Ramesh Phadke
http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/TheStra ... dke_290110

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 29 Jan 2010 14:18

Baki pigs beware......this just in from a tweet I happened to see...

The Israelis dispatch a Hamas leader...in Dubai http://is.gd/7h2cB | If they do supari, we have some jobs for them

Wow. exciting possibilities, eh? And CT specialists in TSP also can be glad, lotsa new fodder for their ever-busier mills. Heh heh.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 29 Jan 2010 14:22

Wonder how Aman ki Ass-aah will respond to the next pak sponsored terror strike that actually affects some of the elite in India (much like 26/11).

Oh, I know. They'll lie low a while and return with a vengeance like nothing happened only.

BTW, from that lens, the fact that 26/11 managed to stave off worthless talks with Pak for well over 14 months is no mean feat, eh? Admittedly, GOI stayed resolute on the 'no talks sans movement on 26/11' party line longer than the realist in me foresaw.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 29 Jan 2010 14:43

10 yrs ago, those amongst Indians who would've favored Aman ki Assa type of BS, IMHO, would be higher than it is today. 10 yrs hence, hopefully it'll be far lower than it is today. The direction is fine, the accumulated stock of ignorance will need more time to get drained out.

And no, its not because of some magical strategic thinking ability in the aam aadmi here that such change will come. It will come more as a matter of a prosperity differential. A visibly progressing and prospering Yindia against a visibly decaying Porkistan. Sure the misplaced compassionates and bleeding farts will swell the WKK ranks a wee bit perhaps, but over time, the confidence and strength of Yindian polity in dealing with TSp can only increase I reckon. So we should do fine.

Of course, as always when dealing with matters Yindia, 1000 things can go wrong only. Like Yogi Berra once said:

Making predictions is dangerous. Especially about the future

But lets hope that as the old partition generation retires from power, the newer ones will not be beholden to their past baggage. And the prosperity differential will tame n shame even deff-dumb level rabid porkis to placating Yindia in return for a handful of rupees.
Hari Om.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 29 Jan 2010 14:55

whats with the complete lack of ied mubaraks in TSP?

Any thing happened that there seems to be absolute sannata? What has happened between the ied festival and now, to have absolute nothing?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jan 2010 14:57

^^
The Paki army has stopped its offensive in the West.

Page 72!!

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 29 Jan 2010 14:58

Everybody say AoA, this thread has reached its 72!

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 29 Jan 2010 15:02

Gagan wrote:
Now the future: My guess is:
1. One must remember that the GEO group pays money to IPL to get the telecast rights there, and if the pakistani cable operators block that transmission as they threatened to do, IPL teams would be the ultimate losers.

There is NO danger of the same. IPL is broadcast on SONY and Setmax in Pakistan. (95% of population watches it on these channels which are avialable free to air).

GEO only broadcast it on set top box thingy including satellite. Revenue from their is minuscule.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jan 2010 15:05

Sri wrote:
There is NO danger of the same. IPL is broadcast on SONY and Setmax in Pakistan. (95% of population watches it on these channels which are avialable free to air).

But the channels pay someone who pays IPL anyway.If they don;t make up their money who cares?

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 29 Jan 2010 15:17

Finally, TSP thread has reached its 72 goats.

Wonder when will the TSP state achieve its 72

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Jan 2010 15:28

Kittoo ji, the reason why Pakis hate India is that they and their Army consider it their manifest destiny to continue the Ghazwa E Hind on India. Hindu's are stubbornly in the way and just don't understand that it's the Paki Ummahs god given right to conduct that. Hence no shame in attacking India, conducting terrorist activities, going to war, conducting massacres in Bangladesh etc. My advise explain the Ghazwa and introduce them to 'Can Humans marry Djinns'/ 'Who are we?' threads on deff n dumb. Lots of people who have no idea will be awakened. Try it.

PS: Also encourage them to post of deff..when they're called bhangees, dalits, abused left and right..they'll understand what the Paki is all about.

Also yes Kitto ji, you're doing a good job. Many will read your posts and quietly agree with it. It helps to put your POV.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 29 Jan 2010 15:41

harbans wrote:Kittoo ji, the reason why Pakis hate India is that they and their Army consider it their manifest destiny to continue the Ghazwa E Hind on India. Hindu's are stubbornly in the way and just don't understand that it's the Paki Ummahs god given right to conduct that. Hence no shame in attacking India, conducting terrorist activities, going to war, conducting massacres in Bangladesh etc. My advise explain the Ghazwa and introduce them to 'Can Humans marry Djinns'/ 'Who are we?' threads on deff n dumb. Lots of people who have no idea will be awakened. Try it.

PS: Also encourage them to post of deff..when they're called bhangees, dalits, abused left and right..they'll understand what the Paki is all about.

Also yes Kitto ji, you're doing a good job. Many will read your posts and quietly agree with it. It helps to put your POV.

I did sir. Here is what I wrote-

kittoo on IITB forum wrote:
Also, what does that mean that it will only fill more hatred in hearts of Islamic extremists? Do you think they have any less hatred right now? Dont tell me that you think that breaking India apart isnt the wet-dream of all Pakis? Have you heard about Ghazwat-ul-Hind? It maybe rhetoric, but it does give idea of what Islamic extremists think of India. Also, as of now, other than terrorists based in Pak, terrorists care little for India. They are more occupied with US etc. Its better that we teach Pak a lesson today, cause its very much possible that once US leaves Afghanistan, all those other terrorists group might come towards India (they've already run over Pak). And tell me, would you rather have Indian citizens killed than have some more hatred (which anyway is very high) filled in hearts of Islamic extremists? Why do you fail to see that the final aim of Islamic terrorists isnt some specific territory grabbing or something like that, they just want to kill or convert all those who infidels (be them Hindus, Christians, Shia Muslims or Jews or whoever else). This war isnt going to end by appeasement.