LCA news and discussion

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby viveks » 28 Jan 2010 10:58

Something off topic for us jingos....I met 2 ground electrical engineers from pune AFB on a train...they were pretty much talking about indigenization of almost every software/electronic module of Su-30 in the coming 1-3 yrs. Their job dutys included inspection of all electrical systems of the aircraft including integration. They showed me some interesting pictures that were taken through their mobile phones. They would not give them to me.....mostly those things were out of my understanding....

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby rad » 28 Jan 2010 20:58

I would love to see a 2052 Aesa radar , derby,astra , or a newer misile with a python 5 on the lca .It would be easy to do it along with the lightning pod that could be used as a flir or an IRST combined with the DASH HMS that has been already integrated .I have heard of unreliability and poor shelf life of the aa-12 archer missile which would be a nigtmare to integrate into the LCA , morover the russians wold never give us teh code or help us . I heard that the r-73 was missile integrated by our peolpe after the russians refused to help .

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Shameek » 28 Jan 2010 21:04

rad wrote:would be easy to do it along with the lightning pod that could be used as a flir or an IRST combined with the DASH HMS that has been already integrated


Please note it is LITENING and not 'lightning'. That is a term reserved for DDM use only. :D

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby KrishG » 28 Jan 2010 21:06

but somehow this word needs to be spread, that the LCA program only really began around 1989 with the Project Definition Phase being completed in assistance with Dassault. Before that, it was only a set of ideas that hadn’t even been put into a fully formulated plan. How people can say that the LCA program began in 1983 when even ADA did not exist then and only was set up as an Agency in 1985 is beyond my understanding.


This is the reason a page called Timeline of HAL Tejas was created on Wiki

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 28 Jan 2010 22:22

^^
there are errors in that last time I checked.
NRao wrote:What is your email?

check PM please.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kartik » 28 Jan 2010 22:32

KrishG wrote:This is the reason a page called Timeline of HAL Tejas was created on Wiki

great, I'd not seen it before. The timeline mentioned there seems quite accurate as it matches the dates that were mentioned in AM Rajkumar's book.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sankum » 29 Jan 2010 12:26

Information on DFCC of LCA
India gets naval weapon system to destroy enemy targets

A state-of-the-art facility, dedicated to manufacture of Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC) for the Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas) at BEL’s Bangalore Complex will also come up.

DFCC is a multiple redundant (improving its reliability, one channel will take over if another fails) digital fly-by-wire flight control system of Tejas, which controls manoeuvring of the aircraft.

DFCC is a flight critical sub-system to be manufactured as per AS 9100 standards with stringent in-process and quality control processes, including environmental tests on each unit.

To meet this requirement, BEL has set up this integrated manufacturing facility for assembly, inspection and testing of DFCC, all under one roof.

The facility includes thermal cycling chamber, vibration machine, dehumidifying chambers for storing PCBs, high resolution inspection tools to identify process errors, automated test equipment for rigorous performance testing and engineering test station for testing the DFCC unit.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby pralay » 29 Jan 2010 15:40

sankum wrote:The facility includes thermal cycling chamber, vibration machine, dehumidifying chambers for storing PCBs, high resolution inspection tools to identify process errors, automated test equipment for rigorous performance testing and engineering test station for testing the DFCC unit.

I am just wondering, how will the PCBs will survive on ships if they need to be stored in dehumidified chembers?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby vcsekhar » 29 Jan 2010 17:10

Sensitive electronics are always stored in dehumidified conditions since there is no use having them spoil while stored.
Everything has a specified life when stored in high humidity conditions and there is no use in wasting valuable shelf life. Corrosion is very easy to start and when started is extremely difficult to stop.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Jagan » 30 Jan 2010 04:48

Some recent images from Sanjay

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kartik » 30 Jan 2010 04:57

Thanks Jagan garu ! been waiting for clear pics of the PV-5 twin-seater for a long time now ! and I must say, the twin-seater does look very good ! Can now imagine what the N-LCA will look like..

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby putnanja » 30 Jan 2010 04:58

Nice pics Sanjay and Jagan! Thank you!

In the 2nd pic of 2-seater LCA in the air, it looks like the antenna ( the straight rod protruding from the nose) has some other stuff on it, compared to the LCA 1 seater in the last pic. Anyone know why it is of that shape?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kartik » 30 Jan 2010 05:02

putnanja wrote:In the 2nd pic of 2-seater LCA in the air, it looks like the antenna ( the straight rod protruding from the nose) has some other stuff on it, compared to the LCA 1 seater in the last pic. Anyone know why it is of that shape?


that straight rod is called a pitot tube. and those are additional air-data probes that are placed on the pitot tube, and will be removed on production twin-seaters.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Jan 2010 10:52

Jagan Saar,

Wrong day to disclose these pics! But I must confess the bird is beautiful, somehow more pleasing to the eye than Olga up north!

CM.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 30 Jan 2010 11:25

super ! thanks guys !

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby SriniY » 30 Jan 2010 11:31

indeed, the trainer looks very beautiful

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby krishnan » 30 Jan 2010 11:49

The last pic is a trainer?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby SriniY » 30 Jan 2010 11:51

^^ the first one is the trainer

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Willy » 30 Jan 2010 12:02

Why cant the LCA have a dropped nose for all the variants. It will give the pilot better visibility. The pics of the LCA-N with the dropped nose make it look like one s**y babe :):):)

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Nihat » 30 Jan 2010 13:29

According to Tenter and his team, for the Tejas to be able to take in an EJ200 engine, the engine will need "minor" modifications. These include some changing to the mounting assembly, a different hydraulic pump and an additional generator pack for starters. In addition, engine interfaces might need changes depending on how the LCA is configured. All in all, Eurojet believes its tailor-made EJ200 for the LCA can be ready -- certification tests and all -- in two years flat. Officials at the company point out that one of the biggest downers for their competition is that the F-414-400's intake interface assembly is markedly larger than the F-404 (and, thus, the LCA) and its selection would therefore imply some very serious modifications to the LCA's centre fuselage and intake architecture (in addition to the use of a cone director for airflow). Eurojet insists that the EJ200's installation will require absolutely no airframe and intake changes to the LCA. Both contentions remain unconfirmed at this point.


http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/01/ty ... ts-up.html

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Austin » 30 Jan 2010 13:34

What a beauty , Thanks Jagan . Made my Day !

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby KrishG » 30 Jan 2010 14:20

The trainer is an absolute beauty! Is it just me or does the 1st look at the trainer reminds of Gripen ?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby rohitvats » 30 Jan 2010 14:32

A question to the maulanas learned in the ways of jahaj-e-kuffr:

--What are the parameters involved (boradly) which require clearing to attain the IOC by the Tejas?
--Similarly, what will the steps required to be cleared thence to achieve the FOC?
--Timeframe for the above two steps?
--And the induction into the IAF will happen post FOC?

Thanx in advance.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Willy » 30 Jan 2010 14:56

The trainer is an absolute beauty! Is it just me or does the 1st look at the trainer reminds of Gripen ?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lol... That was my first impression to :):):):):)

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 30 Jan 2010 15:25

A caveat first. what constitutes IOC and FOC depends on AF. simply put, IOC is the minimum level of performance at which the aircraft can operate as an usable fighting machine for the AF.
FOC is the level at which all required performance parameters set by the AF are met, IOW it's the configuration at which the aircraft will enter regular service.

now, it is up to the AF to decide upon minimum parameters for IOC. the LCA for example will be inducted in IAF after it achieves IOC and will enter full operational service after it attains FOC. the gripen OTOH was inducted even before it achieved IOC, i.e when it was an experimental aircraft and not a fighting machine !

we can guess the IOC requirements from what we know of the tests that are being carried out now and what will be carried out in future during FOC phase, after IOC is completed by this year.
rohitvats wrote:A question to the maulanas learned in the ways of jahaj-e-kuffr:

--What are the parameters involved (boradly) which require clearing to attain the IOC by the Tejas?
> opening up of flight envelope(AoA,max alt and speed etc) to the level required for operational service. it could be that IOC stops just a little lower than full design specifications and the shortfall is made up by FOC. this is normal.
> clearing the LCA airframe to its designed structural limits. in LCA's case, I think other than full AoA others have already been done.
> other than that, everything a fighter needs to operate as an interceptor and ground attack aircraft. now we do not know if LCA has fired any radar guided missiles or not but we do know
>> it has fired dogfight missiles like the R-73
>> it has dropped a number of dumb bombs of varying sizes and it has also been mated to the litening pod. that hints that it will have PGM delivery capability by IOC itself.
in terms of capabilities, at IOC it will be roughly equivalent to the mig-27, with better aerodynamics and sensors. that is, if the radar is NOT interated. if it is integrated then it will enter IAF as fully multi-role

--Similarly, what will the steps required to be cleared thence to achieve the FOC?
radar integration and validation of A2A and A2G modes. other than that fitting of IFR probe and some electronic goodies. also finishing touches to the flight envelope.
complete weapons integration.

--Timeframe for the above two steps?
from the article in vayu circa Nov, flight envelope tests for IOC was on line to be completed by december itself. IOC and induction in IAF is expected by middle of this year.
FOC, latest by 2012 end. :)

--And the induction into the IAF will happen post FOC?
nope, see above.
Thanx in advance.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Willy » 30 Jan 2010 16:15

Rahul M wrote:A caveat first. what constitutes IOC and FOC depends on AF. simply put, IOC is the minimum level of performance at which the aircraft can operate as an usable fighting machine for the AF.
FOC is the level at which all required performance parameters set by the AF are met, IOW it's the configuration at which the aircraft will enter regular service.

now, it is up to the AF to decide upon minimum parameters for IOC. the LCA for example will be inducted in IAF after it achieves IOC and will enter full operational service after it attains FOC. the gripen OTOH was inducted even before it achieved IOC, i.e when it was an experimental aircraft and not a fighting machine !

we can guess the IOC requirements from what we know of the tests that are being carried out now and what will be carried out in future during FOC phase, after IOC is completed by this year.
rohitvats wrote:A question to the maulanas learned in the ways of jahaj-e-kuffr:

--What are the parameters involved (boradly) which require clearing to attain the IOC by the Tejas?
> opening up of flight envelope(AoA,max alt and speed etc) to the level required for operational service. it could be that IOC stops just a little lower than full design specifications and the shortfall is made up by FOC. this is normal.
> clearing the LCA airframe to its designed structural limits. in LCA's case, I think other than full AoA others have already been done.
> other than that, everything a fighter needs to operate as an interceptor and ground attack aircraft. now we do not know if LCA has fired any radar guided missiles or not but we do know
>> it has fired dogfight missiles like the R-73
>> it has dropped a number of dumb bombs of varying sizes and it has also been mated to the litening pod. that hints that it will have PGM delivery capability by IOC itself.
in terms of capabilities, at IOC it will be roughly equivalent to the mig-27, with better aerodynamics and sensors. that is, if the radar is NOT interated. if it is integrated then it will enter IAF as fully multi-role

--Similarly, what will the steps required to be cleared thence to achieve the FOC?
radar integration and validation of A2A and A2G modes. other than that fitting of IFR probe and some electronic goodies. also finishing touches to the flight envelope.
complete weapons integration.

--Timeframe for the above two steps?
from the article in vayu circa Nov, flight envelope tests for IOC was on line to be completed by december itself. IOC and induction in IAF is expected by middle of this year.
FOC, latest by 2012 end. :)

--And the induction into the IAF will happen post FOC?
nope, see above.
Thanx in advance.


What good is the LCA without a radar????????????

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Austin » 30 Jan 2010 16:22

Willy wrote:What good is the LCA without a radar????????????


Even Jags/Mig-27 do not have it , does that make them no good ?

One can still so accurate ground bombing and WVR combat without a radar.

But LCA will have some radar by IOC from Israel stable perhaps some variant of Elta 2032

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Sagar G » 30 Jan 2010 20:29

Willy wrote: What good is the LCA without a radar????????????


Who told you that it will not have one ???????????

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Asit P » 30 Jan 2010 21:34

Although I am still intoxicated by the beauty of PAKFA, nevertheless excellent pics Jagan. I guess they will bring me back to my senses soon. Aakhir dil hai Hindustani :wink:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Jagan » 30 Jan 2010 21:34

Guys, all the thanks should go to Sanjay. I know the Trainer is a beaut and many of us here would get a kick out of seeing it in true colours. Hence couldnt wait to put them up even though the Pak-fa is hogging all the limelight.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby rohitvats » 30 Jan 2010 23:21

Rahul M wrote:........<snip>....


Rahul da...many thanx for the patient reply.Please indulge my queries a bit more:

--Has there been any confirmation on the radar thing?Indian/Israel/Indo-Israel hybrid?For if i understand correctly, FOC will not be possible before every aspect of a/c is cleared & verified and it enters as a full-fledged comabt a/c. If FOC is too happen by 2012, my guess is that the radar will have to be mounted by end of this year/beginning of 2011 so that the a/c can be put through its paces. And for the radar to be mounted in the timeframe, the decision would have been taken by now?Any clues?
--by december you mean Dec 2010?And induction in mid 2011?

The main reason I asked these questions, apart from learning about LCA, was to see and highlight the difference in culture between India and by extension IAF and TSP & TSPAF.The GOPk & PAF have already conducted the induction ceremony of the JF-17 and 1st Sqd. will be raised in 2010.This when the a/c has not achieved the IOC and there is no information in public domain about the a/c meeting various milestones like firing AAM, dropping dumb bombs, opening of the flight envelope etc.The radar has not been finalized nor has been the weapon set.So no clarity on the FOC as well.The Tejas when it enters the service will at least be good as MiG-27, god know what the Thunder be good at.Everything is done for H&D onlee......

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Willy » 31 Jan 2010 00:43

Willy wrote:
What good is the LCA without a radar????????????


Who told you that it will not have one ???????????

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The article above mentioned that it would be without a radar at IOC. Another Jag or 27 the IAF needs not !!! :(( Why cant they mate the radar before IOC?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby rakall » 31 Jan 2010 09:27

rohitvats wrote:
Rahul M wrote:........<snip>....


Rahul da...many thanx for the patient reply.Please indulge my queries a bit more:

--Has there been any confirmation on the radar thing?Indian/Israel/Indo-Israel hybrid?For if i understand correctly, FOC will not be possible before every aspect of a/c is cleared & verified and it enters as a full-fledged comabt a/c. If FOC is too happen by 2012, my guess is that the radar will have to be mounted by end of this year/beginning of 2011 so that the a/c can be put through its paces. And for the radar to be mounted in the timeframe, the decision would have been taken by now?Any clues?
--by december you mean Dec 2010?And induction in mid 2011?

......



The radar is Indo-Israeli hybrid.. Multiple sources from ADA confirmed (during AI09) that.. The radar will have indigenous antenna, APL, power amplifier & FRP radome.. the DSP units and software will be Israeli..

By the time of Feb09 - the radar was supposed to have been tested extensively on ground test rigs.. Dont know what has held-up integration with LSP-3 and the flight of LSP-3.. hopefully sooner than later LSP3 will fly with the Radar.. I assume the radar testing etc should not take more than a year..

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 31 Jan 2010 09:48

IF the hybrid radar is NOT available or integrated on the IOC a/c, might one be bold enough to suggest that the EL-2052 rumors might have some merit? Yes, it'll still be a hybrid, only this time it'll be an AESA hybrid! :twisted:

Of course, this is pure guesswork, but it seems integration of the MMR seems unduly late. Simultaneously, India has reportedly made some decent moves in ESA tech.

CM

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 31 Jan 2010 10:15

rohitvats wrote:--Has there been any confirmation on the radar thing?Indian/Israel/Indo-Israel hybrid?
rock-all boss has already answered.I can't improve on it ! :)

For if i understand correctly, FOC will not be possible before every aspect of a/c is cleared & verified and it enters as a full-fledged comabt a/c. If FOC is too happen by 2012, my guess is that the radar will have to be mounted by end of this year/beginning of 2011 so that the a/c can be put through its paces.
radar integration was supposed to have been done long back. I would expect them to fly the radar integrated bird in the next few months itself.
And for the radar to be mounted in the timeframe, the decision would have been taken by now?Any clues?
decision has already been taken, 3-4 years back. IIRC LCA radar has been extensively tested in static A2A mode where it performed better than expected.

--by december you mean Dec 2010?And induction in mid 2011?
no sir. december 2009. the nov issue said that testing of LCA's aerodynamic envelope for IOC was well on its way to be completed by dec 2009. and induction by 2nd or 3rd quarter of this year, i.e 2010. :)


Willy wrote:The article above mentioned that it would be without a radar at IOC. Another Jag or 27 the IAF needs not !!! :(( Why cant they mate the radar before IOC?
oh dear ! it's not "another" jag or mig-27 but something much more. please read up how home air forces induct modern fighters.
gripen --> inducted even before it reached IOC, that means virtually no military capability whatsoever
rafale --> inducted in FAF as a very limited A2A fighter. full capability was reached 6 years after induction into FAF.
and so on.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 31 Jan 2010 10:19

rakall wrote:The radar is Indo-Israeli hybrid.. Multiple sources from ADA confirmed (during AI09) that.. The radar will have indigenous antenna, APL, power amplifier & FRP radome.. the DSP units and software will be Israeli..

By the time of Feb09 - the radar was supposed to have been tested extensively on ground test rigs.. Dont know what has held-up integration with LSP-3 and the flight of LSP-3.. hopefully sooner than later LSP3 will fly with the Radar.. I assume the radar testing etc should not take more than a year..

rakall saar, it's been sometime I have come across anything on the MMR. could you rehash the known stuff and give us a primer ?
TIA.

Cain Marko wrote:IF the hybrid radar is NOT available or integrated on the IOC a/c, might one be bold enough to suggest that the EL-2052 rumors might have some merit? Yes, it'll still be a hybrid, only this time it'll be an AESA hybrid! :twisted:

Of course, this is pure guesswork, but it seems integration of the MMR seems unduly late. Simultaneously, India has reportedly made some decent moves in ESA tech.

CM

AESA is targeted to be in Mk2. I doubt they will go for a complete new solution like the 2052 when the MMR has already progressed so far.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Sagar G » 31 Jan 2010 19:17

Willy wrote: The article above mentioned that it would be without a radar at IOC. Another Jag or 27 the IAF needs not !!! :(( Why cant they mate the radar before IOC?


ADA is not working day and night to give IAF another "Jag or 27" so don't worry about that. The LCA will have a radar in it and that too an AESA which at the moment has been planned for the Mk.2 variant and it's obvious that the Mk.1 will also have there radars upgraded to AESA.

Rakall saar has given an idea about the radar which will be on the Mk.1 variant.

If they are not being able to mate the radar before IOC then there must be some technical issue.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby gogna » 01 Feb 2010 01:45

Jagan

Can you please update the wiki page with the real thing :twisted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LCA_Trainer.jpg

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby KrishG » 01 Feb 2010 01:48


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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Prasad » 01 Feb 2010 14:05

This new rfp begs the question of what happened to the under-development aesa radar that was supposed to be under testing from the top of a building in b'lore? Did it not perform as expected? We seem to be asking for an entire radar setup in this new request.


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