Indian Army: News & Discussion

[RayC]

Army Rule 14. It states that 'where the Central govt is satisfied that for reasons, to be recorded in writing, it is not expedient or reasonably practical to give an opportunity to showing cause etc etc ' he can be dismissed.

Now, what stopped the 'honest ' Anthony to dismiss Gen Prakash on his own?

Playing safe as any politician would?

Before you judge the Generals, just look at your brave Politicians and the bureaucrats who have passed the buck!

Not withstanding Ramana's missive, if I were the Chief, I would have resigned to give a message to the Govt - this much and no far!

I am not prejudging the facts. I am looking at procedures of law!

[RayC]

RayC sir,
Although a personal opinion, I am sure it is that of multitudes of other citizens too that the Army is held to a higher standard than the general bureaucracy that they encounter. The army man is seen as an upright person who defends the country against the barbarians at the gates while the govt official sucks their blood dry so to speak. In such a opinionated pov, although unreasonable, better is expected from the army. It is sad that the rest of the govt is not held to the higher standards but we would rather have the army hold up its high standards than to say (like the rest of the country) 'hey. hes getting away with it. why should you hold me to this high standard and tell me to obey the rules'.

It gives me pride that you all feel that the Armed Forces are purer than the snow of Mt Etna.

Though I am the most misunderstood person on this forum, I will state that I stand for what is the greatness of India as it stand today and I don't care what my forefather's did, if that same in not applied today. I have had great 'discussion' with Generals including the COAS who ensured I moved out to a sinecure. Do I regret it? No! I have lived for the truth and India.

I would also request you all to realise that the Armed Forces is not in the guise of Mahatma Gandhi. Even Mahatma Gandhi, I believe was having sex when his father was dying. If I am wrong, do correct me. We are not greater than the Mahatma. We are human. Thieves, crooks and manipulators are there. But please note that once the Army finds out, it comes all guns blazing. Hence you all know the fault-lines. But do you know of the govt and the bureaucracy and other departments of Govt? The Armed Forces does not allow fraud and once they discover it they go gung ho and it makes the news!

We try to keep to the high standards of morality. But then thieves and crooks are everywhere and more so in the civil, where they get away with murder. Tehelka?

Does the media speak about it?

Was Bofors a clean deal?

[chetak]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/freud ... p/571038/2

Coomi Kapoor

Posted: Sunday , Jan 24, 2010 at 0211 hrs

Succession war

The bad blood between Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor and his successor Lt General V K Singh is out in the open after the army land scam in West Bengal. Singh, at present head of the Eastern Command, had recommended punitive action against the concerned generals on the basis of a court of inquiry he had ordered. Singh has targeted the Army Headquarters military secretary, Lt Gen Avadesh Prakash, who had earlier crossed swords with him over a discrepancy in his birth date. Caught in this heavyweight crossfire is Lt General P.K. Rath, former 33 corps Commander, who signed the letter of intent for setting up a school, which was cancelled within 15 days at Singh’s order. In this vitiated atmosphere, there are sceptical interpretations to the recent news that General Kapoor has developed a hearing problem. Will Defence Minister A.K. Antony remain a silent spectator to these unseemly developments?

The COAS is retiring with a hearing disability allegedly caused by gunfire trials in the States.(?)

The artillery firing goras put on their ear defenders even before they put on their undies.

Is it possible that the US Army will possibly place a visiting Indian Army COAS in harms way by firing off a weapon so close so as to cause total hearing loss in one ear?

If sued, the US Army would have to settle injury claims to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. It would be a legal cake walk to collect big bucks in such cases.

[somnath]

Not belabouring upon the Sukhna case, and there isnt much to belabour upon anyway, given the paucity of info, but this is grotesque:

According to the Defence Services Regulations, Regulations for the Army, Para 4 (b), ‘The Chief of Army Staff is responsible to the President through the Central Government for the command, discipline, recruitment, training, organisation, administration and preparations for war of the Army.’ (Though the COAS is responsible to the President through Government, it is not the same thing as to the Government).

The Defence Minister has no power of command over the COAS. There have been instances in the past when the COAS has disregarded the advice of the Defence Minister.

So the COAS does not "report" to the RM?!! So who does he report to? the President? But in India the President simply works on the "advice of the cabinet"..All public servants "serve at the pleasure of the President"..therefore some ministry and cabinet minister is, for want of a better word, the custodian of the President's pleasure..For the Army, it is the RM..

Quoting anecdotal examples of exceptions is no good - sometimes personalities in question determine the course of an event..But as a rule, the COAS has to be reporting to the RM, isnt he?

AK Antony is saying a few things, but not nearly enough yet..

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/will- ... ny/573672/

[VinodTK]

No place for corruption in Indian Army: Antony

[RayC]

No place for corruption in Indian Army: Antony

Good for Anthony.

He must apply it to his Ministry also.

Why are the Defence deals being delayed and why is the Indian Armed Forces bereft of weapons they require?

Maybe he should apply himself to the same too.

Why does the PNC overrule the military's recommendations?

Bofors, HDW etc?

I saw the programme We the People. Praful Patel was sitting cheek by jowl with Jet Airway's Goyal. Speaks a lot?

[Craig Alpert]

India's snow warriors

EDITED LATER: DELETED As per Surya's Request. Guess I missed the boat on that one

[Surya]

maybe Praful patel should also save these pages


Craig that article has been posted and major drama ensued

Please delete the article and leave the link atmost

[pgbhat]

x-posting from TIRP
Bluffer’s Guide: Indo-Pakistan Border

[RayC]

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/ ... -firms.htm

Is'nt this interesting.

Our dhoti clad (Kerela style) RM, 'honest to the core' is allowing this when he raps the Armed Forces that he will not allow a single case of corruption?

Check Telegraph front page 01 Feb 2001.

Double standards?

If not, how he is allowing going easy on corrupt firms?

I have not understood.

Can someone help me?

[Gaur]

^^
Sir,
This is because nearly all the arty producing firms have been blacklisted. All the forerunners have been blacklisted and thus all the favorites of IA have been left out of the race. Considering our dire need, IMO everyone (including IA) would be rejoiced if we are able to quickly procure arty in large nos by going easy. In fact, if we want arty of IA's choice, there is no other way.

[chetak]

^^
Sir,
This is because nearly all the arty producing firms have been blacklisted. All the forerunners have been blacklisted and thus all the favorites of IA have been left out of the race. Considering our dire need, IMO everyone (including IA) would be rejoiced if we are able to quickly procure arty in large nos by going easy. In fact, if we want arty of IA's choice, there is no other way.

There seems to be a definite and set pattern to derail the procurement process especially in this case.

Are the arms dealers not happy with the commissions??

[somnath]

There seems to be a definite and set pattern to derail the procurement process especially in this case.

Are the arms dealers not happy with the commissions??

This is now a classic prisoner's dilemma sort of situation. the optimum solution for all vendors is to simply scuttle the chances of all others, so as to keep themselves in the reckoning!

Therefore FMS is the only way to break out of the logjam...And even the solution not to prevent any firm, blacklisted or not, from bidding is also good..At least it keeps the process moving..

[Nirmal]

Army Rule 14. It states that 'where the Central govt is satisfied that for reasons, to be recorded in writing, it is not expedient or reasonably practical to give an opportunity to showing cause etc etc ' he can be dismissed.

Now, what stopped the 'honest ' Anthony to dismiss Gen Prakash on his own?

Playing safe as any politician would?

Before you judge the Generals, just look at your brave Politicians and the bureaucrats who have passed the buck!

Not withstanding Ramana's missive, if I were the Chief, I would have resigned to give a message to the Govt - this much and no far!

I am not prejudging the facts. I am looking at procedures of law!

Anthony is only following the established protocol all over the world. Say your Boss finds your number two guilty of wrong doing and wants him out, he will call you in and ask you to deal with him and terminate his services. That way the unpleasant task is done by the 'immediate superior' and not the 'ultimate superior'.

[Surya]

Imagine the brouha that would erupt if Anthony sacked the Lt Gen on his own.

And yeah - hell will freeze over when a Chief decides to resign.

He should have resigned when arms procurements were not going anywhere. But he bent with the prevailing winds and now its too late.

Will have to hope for a fresh start with the new chief and hope he can do something

[ASPuar]

^^^

Its not a question of sacking him on his own, its a question of rules of business. The RM cannot go about summarily sacking government servants the moment he decides he dislikes them, or suspects them of wrongdoing. Yes, he could ask for the presidential pleasure doctrine to be invoked, but he would end up looking ridiculous, and certainly be challenged in court. Anyway, Gen Prakash has not been "sacked", a court martial has been recommended. He could end up being proven innocent also.

Timmy Thimayya resigned when he found things not to his liking. Its a different matter he was persuaded to withdraw his resignation by Nehru, and then stabbed in the back by him too.

[Surya]

ASPuar

men like Thimayya would be rare

They are mostly pliant - waiting for a governership or an ambassadorship

I have been whining about this Chief - asking him to make a brouha on the arty front hoping his gunner background would make him a little more interested in this issue.

His term is almost over and we have didly squat.

[Bheem]

I find it odd that Service personnel on one side pride themselves over their integrity and on other hand question why standards for them are so high! Are we trying to argue that army should be allowed to be as corrupt as politicians? Do we want to go the Pakistan way? or we are saying that politicians are corrupt so they cannot question the right of army brass to be corrupt? Lets face it, politicians whether corrupt or not have to face the electorate unlike army brass. If somebody wants to be corrupt then he can fight the elections but cannot have the benefit of service career while disclaiming the responsibilty towards integrity!

[AnimeshP]

I find it odd that Service personnel on one side pride themselves over their integrity and on other hand question why standards for them are so high! Are we trying to argue that army should be allowed to be as corrupt as politicians? Do we want to go the Pakistan way? or we are saying that politicians are corrupt so they cannot question the right of army brass to be corrupt? Lets face it, politicians whether corrupt or not have to face the electorate unlike army brass. If somebody wants to be corrupt then he can fight the elections but cannot have the benefit of service career while disclaiming the responsibilty towards integrity!

Ummm .. no service personnel here is saying that they are above the law or shouldn't be having a higher integrity ... I would suggest that you go and re-read all the posts to understand them correctly ...
All they are arguing is that the services have a much better & more effective mechanism of punishing wrong-doing on part of one of their own and that mechanism should be allowed to run its course without all and sundry jumping in with "scoops" and "directives"

BTW... being held to a higher standard doesn't mean that the foundation of law that says "Innocent until proven guilty" gets thrown out of the window ...

[chetak]

I find it odd that Service personnel on one side pride themselves over their integrity and on other hand question why standards for them are so high! Are we trying to argue that army should be allowed to be as corrupt as politicians? Do we want to go the Pakistan way? or we are saying that politicians are corrupt so they cannot question the right of army brass to be corrupt? Lets face it, politicians whether corrupt or not have to face the electorate unlike army brass. If somebody wants to be corrupt then he can fight the elections but cannot have the benefit of service career while disclaiming the responsibilty towards integrity!

The overwhelmingly vast and silent majority in the Armed Forces are exceedingly honest and conscientiously hard working. They silently accept appallingly bad living conditions and needlessly tough working environment. These are the guys on whom the system runs.

Their days merge into one another, weekends and sundays rarely exist and leave is not easy to come by.

Honesty is really a very big thing for these guys. They are trusted with the lives of their comrades and officers. They learn to look out for their own, up and down the chain.

If they do not complete a particular job, assignment, maintenance schedule or repair job, lives are often imperiled. Military justice is swift , savage and sure.

This is why they place such a premium on honesty. This is what the public also perceives. When scams happen this majority feels let down by the system, as also the public.

There are however some snake oil salesmen who learn early in life to beat the system, live of the fat of the land and sham their way through cushy postings and easy life.

These are the overconfident SOBs who usually bring all into disrepute, sooner rather than later.

Ketchup, screaming headlines and hysterical TV anchors are the usually the result.

[somnath]

One of the sad things that has happened over the last few years is that the Defence Minsitry has not been invested with "political weight"..Beyond the brief tenure of Pranab Mukherjee and another brief one of Jaswant Singh, the ministry has not had politically heavyweight and/or ambitious ministers..In any system, a strong individual can make a difference..Arun Shourie made a difference in Disinvestment, Arun Jaitley in Law, PC is making a difference in the Home Ministry, Pranab Mukherjee was a marked change in the Foreign Ministry (though this one at least is never short of attention!)...

These things make a difference..Notice how the new M2k order (the batch os 10 attrition reserves) was handled by Pranab Mukherjee - thanks to our usual proclivity of bungling/consipracy theories etc (remember non standard TACAN?) the planes were almost not being delivered..Pranab Mukherjee interevened decisively to get the thing done, and no whiff of scandal..Before that, Mulayam Yadav could make the Su30 decision (I have written about it many times) thanks to his political stature - again his tenure was very brief..

I would love to see someone like Pranab Mukherjee, PC, Kapil Sibal or even someone like Mani Shankar Aiyar - people who like to get on with things, as the RM..There is too much status quoism right now..Someone has shake the system up..

[somnath]

A view from across the border on the Sukhna scam issue..

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... antony-220

(he has gotten some of the names a bit jumbled up, but his comments are quite unexceptionable)..

[Prasad]

I never thought she was capable of writing something as clear as this but NDTV journo Anubha Bhonsle has a post on her blog about the Sukhna case -

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/anubhabhons ... y-now.html

[RayC]

A view from across the border on the Sukhna scam issue..

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... antony-220

(he has gotten some of the names a bit jumbled up, but his comments are quite unexceptionable)..

The civilians of Pakistan has got a neat handle to bash their military.

[ASPuar]

Well, the land definitely did not belong to the army, anyway. Seems to have been on lease from the State govt.

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... HC/574393/

Don’t let state govt cancel lease: Sukna builders go to HC


Subrata Nagchoudhury
Posted: Feb 02, 2010 at 0345 hrs IST

Kolkata:

As the Army clears court-martial proceedings against top Generals in the Sukna land scandal, the four firms they allegedly favoured have gone to Calcutta High Court in a last-ditch attempt to prevent the state government from cancelling their leases.

And to get the Army to explain why it withdrew the no-objection certificate just three months after giving it in February 2009.

That no-objection, an Army inquiry report found out, was given in alleged violation of norms and is at the heart of the allegations against Miltary Secretary Lt Gen Avadhesh Prakash, Lt Gen P K Rath of the 33 Corps and others.

According to court records, in November 2006, for an estimated Rs 82 lakh, lease deeds were executed in favour of Akshara Vanijya Private Ltd, Mata Vaishnodevi Mercantile Pvt Ltd, Sheetla Vyapar Pvt Ltd and J F Low & Company.

These four companies were floated by Sharad Bajoria, owner of New Chumta Tea garden in Sukna, whose unutilized 71.55 acres was taken on lease from the West Bengal government for this commercial venture.

They got possession of the land in June 2007.

These firms have now sought an injunction on proceedings by the West Bengal Land and Land Reforms (L&LR) department towards cancellation of the lease deeds.

It was in April 2009 that the 33 Corps Headquarters informed the state government that it was canceling the MoU it had signed with the trust.

The court has set the second week of February for the next hearing and asked all parties to maintain status quo.

But the key man behind the project isn’t hopeful. “The Sukna project is dead. It’s been killed. With the Army raising objections about the educational project on the 71.55 acres, on grounds of national security, I am left with little choice now. I will have to move out of the project in Sukna,” said Bajoria.

The venture mooted at Sukna at first related to a “tea tourism-cum-tourist resort” but after the Army objected to it on grounds of security, it was later modified “in accordance with and in tune with the Army’s proposal of setting up an educational institution,” Bajoria told The Indian Express.

He declined to answer questions on the Army’s allegations.

Asked why he floated the four companies, Bajoria said: “I could have done the educational institute project in the name of New Chumta Tea Garden. But it was for business convenience that these four separate companies had to be set up.”

Bajoria, who deposed before the army court of inquiry, said: “My involvement in the project was almost like an outsider. The land belonged to me. The Geetanjali Trust was interested in setting up the educational institute project. So everything was being done by the Geetanjali Trust.” Its trustee was Dilip Agarwal, the Siliguri-based developer who, according to the Army, was a close friend of Lt Gen Prakash.

When contacted by The Indian Express, L&LR Commissioner-General P K Agarwal, IAS said: “Our final verdict on cancellation of the lease deed was due on December 23 but it had to be withheld after the lessees went to court.”

Sources said the government has also cleared a proposal to refund the estimated Rs 82 lakh paid by the four lessees.

[RayC]

I appreciate the content of the blog and it does hold much truth.

I also feel that there is much more to it that what is upfront.

To be fair, here is what an Army 'brat' (as it is popularly known) wrote:

SHADOW OF DOUBT
MALVIKA SINGH

It is embarrassing to see, hear and read about army generals, brigadiers and colonels merrily indulging in ‘extra-curricular’ activities that merit explanation because they raise doubts about integrity of conduct. I come from an army family, and was brought up with stringent rules of personal behaviour and action, based on values that were formal and impeccable, when operating in the larger public domain. The armed forces were once deemed incorruptible and above degradation. There was a time when the chief of army staff was the symbol of all that is correct and clean. General K. M. Cariappa, General K.S. Thimayya, General P.P. Kumaramangalam, Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw and many others were awesome ‘heroes’, and had a special place in the psyche of the nation. Even the cantonments, the habitat of the army, extended and reflected that truth. They were pools of dignity in a fast deteriorating civilian cityscape where mal-governing municipalities had allowed dirt, filth and squalor to overwhelm us all.

There was a time when an army chief would have ordered an inquiry immediately had any doubt been raised about the integrity of an officer, regardless of all other factors. It would have been an internal matter, dealt with appropriately, ensuring and protecting the high moral standards of the army establishment. Gradually, the standards began to fall. Cover-ups, closing of ranks each time there was a dubious deal or action or when an officer stepped out of line and serious doubts were raised, reports of kickbacks on defence purchases ranging from specialized military equipment to coffins, boots and other commodities are all polluting the reputation of a force we were once proud of. The Indian army, one of the most reputed in the world with unmatched credentials, is being shrouded in ‘doubt’.

A view

I don't subscribe to the view in its entirety of the article (those beyond what I have appended), but in all fairness I thought it could be reproduced to some extent since such issues do embarrass and anger many who have slogged it out honestly.

I am clear that the Armed Forces have to be like Ceaser's wife beyond suspicion. Yet, I lament that the same standard is not applied to the Politicians and the bureaucrats and there is huge shindig when it happens in the Armed Forces. Corrupt practices cannot be condoned, but why are these politicians and bureaucrats not also taken to task? If it were done, it would cleanse India!

I believe Mayo College old boys are equally embarrassed that their school's name has been linked to this issue!

[chetak]

These things make a difference..Notice how the new M2k order (the batch os 10 attrition reserves) was handled by Pranab Mukherjee - thanks to our usual proclivity of bungling/consipracy theories etc (remember non standard TACAN?) the planes were almost not being delivered..Pranab Mukherjee interevened decisively to get the thing done, and no whiff of scandal..Before that, Mulayam Yadav could make the Su30 decision (I have written about it many times) thanks to his political stature - again his tenure was very brief..

I would love to see someone like Pranab Mukherjee, PC, Kapil Sibal or even someone like Mani Shankar Aiyar - people who like to get on with things, as the RM..There is too much status quoism right now..Someone has shake the system up..

mani shankar iyer as RM!!!!

Come on Somnath ji, This gentleman was even born across the border, added to all his other psychotic commie outpourings and crackpot ideas of cross border aman. He is ENTIRELY dependent on the minority vote in his constituency. That leaves him open to pressures so common in Tamilnadu. Such tactics ensure a permanent hobbling and emasculation of our representatives.

Personally I find him venomously embittered by failure and he is just a pensioned off gunga din, a sidelined family retainer.

Every ministry, (thankfully he has got to handle only minor ones) he has handled, he has totalled and left it in shambles.

mulayam and the SU 30 deal? Perhaps we read and understand things very differently. There was good reason why his tenure was brief.

[anirban_aim]

http://www.ndtv.com/news/blogs/arms_and ... ontier.php

India may have neglected the infrastructure build up in Ladakh all these years and may have kept very little force to defend the frontier but my most recent visit has convinced me that the lost time is being made up. By 2015, the Indian army will be as strong as anywhere else and the Indian air Force will be in a position to work in close coordination with the ground forces and take on the might of the PLA.

At least some degree of good news after quite a while.

[somnath]

mani shankar iyer as RM!!!!

Come on Somnath ji, This gentleman was even born across the border, added to all his other psychotic commie outpourings and crackpot ideas of cross border aman. He is ENTIRELY dependent on the minority vote in his constituency. That leaves him open to pressures so common in Tamilnadu. Such tactics ensure a permanent hobbling and emasculation of our representatives.

Personally I find him venomously embittered by failure and he is just a pensioned off gunga din, a sidelined family retainer.

Every ministry, (thankfully he has got to handle only minor ones) he has handled, he has totalled and left it in shambles.

mulayam and the SU 30 deal? Perhaps we read and understand things very differently. There was good reason why his tenure was brief.

Chetak, ideologicaly proclivities aside, you need a person with drive and ambition..someone like Mani Aiyer has that...Remember MMS was a lifelong "socialist"? But he could do an about turn when it was needed..

It would be interesting to know your side of the Mulayam Su30 story..His reign was brief because the UF govt was brief!

[chetak]

mani shankar iyer as RM!!!!

Come on Somnath ji, This gentleman was even born across the border, added to all his other psychotic commie outpourings and crackpot ideas of cross border aman. He is ENTIRELY dependent on the minority vote in his constituency. That leaves him open to pressures so common in Tamilnadu. Such tactics ensure a permanent hobbling and emasculation of our representatives.

Personally I find him venomously embittered by failure and he is just a pensioned off gunga din, a sidelined family retainer.

Every ministry, (thankfully he has got to handle only minor ones) he has handled, he has totalled and left it in shambles.

mulayam and the SU 30 deal? Perhaps we read and understand things very differently. There was good reason why his tenure was brief.

Chetak, ideologicaly proclivities aside, you need a person with drive and ambition..someone like Mani Aiyer has that...Remember MMS was a lifelong "socialist"? But he could do an about turn when it was needed..

It would be interesting to know your side of the Mulayam Su30 story..His reign was brief because the UF govt was brief!

Maybe at some BR meet saar.

I had a recent experience of some folks on the forum asking me to be explicit and then recording my replies for future legal action!!!

You have men aplenty, with all the drive and ambition, without extreme ideological proclivities as you so gently put it and without scraping the bottom of the barrel too.

MMS is not a political vegetarian or non vegetarian. He is a "mauka tarian".

He could not have succeeded if PVNR had not stiffened his spine.

[somnath]

^^^Sure, will be interesting!

I agree with you PVNR as well - his political backing was the key - to me he was the best PM India had for about 2 years (1991-1992)..

[RayC]

I had a recent experience of some folks on the forum asking me to be explicit and then recording my replies for future legal action!!!

You make a mistake.

It is to caution you that there are people lurking to make a 'fast buck'.

You had good intentions and a good man, but the world is not that clean and forgiving!

I have seen it all or so I think!

Satyam jayatam?

Rathore and many others?

[chetak]

I had a recent experience of some folks on the forum asking me to be explicit and then recording my replies for future legal action!!!

You make a mistake.

It is to caution you that there are people lurking to make a 'fast buck'.

You had good intentions and a good man, but the world is not that clean and forgiving!

I have seen it all or so I think!

Satyam jayatam?

Rathore and many others?

If that was the intention, I thank you RayC.

[Philip]

‘Land Scam General’ brings new scandal to India’s armed forces
Rhys Blakely, Mumbai

First came the “Ketchup Colonel” — an officer in the Indian Army who was disgraced after he was found to have faked gun battles by sprinkling tomato sauce on civilians in order to win glory, medals and promotion.

Next on the roll of dishonour was “Brigadier Booze” — an infantry commander who was dismissed for selling vast quantities of subsidised military alcohol on the black market.

India’s military is now bracing itself for what could prove to be the most embarrassing scandal yet: that of the “Land Scam General”.

The head of the Indian Army, General Deepak Kapoor, has ordered the court martial of one of his most important aides. Lieutenant-General Avadesh Prakash, who holds the position of military secretary and is one of eight Principal Staff Officers to advise the army chief, will be the force’s highest-ranking officer to face a military trial.

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Along with three other senior soldiers he is accused of abusing his position to enable a property deal involving 71 acres in the tourist region of Darjeeling. The sale of the land, which is next to the Army’s 33 Corps Headquarters in Siliguri, West Bengal, had previously been blocked because of security concerns.

The unprecedented court martial comes at a sensitive time for India’s defence forces, which are being given billions of pounds in funding to compete in an arms race against China.

Disciplinary action was taken last month against 41 officers who were discovered to have sold their weapons and ammunition on the black market in the tiny Himalayan state of Bhutan, which borders India.

One of the most brazen scams was uncovered last July, when it was revealed that army chiefs had claimed to have spent 10 million rupees (£130,000) on special silent-running “reconnaissance vehicles” for risky missions beyond enemy lines. In reality the money had been spent on 22 golf buggies, several of which were deployed to patrol the famously lush fairways of the Army’s Shivalik golf course in the serene foothills of Chandigarh.

“Golfgate” emerged from a scathing audit of military spending by India’s civil service. The investigation uncovered a litany of alleged transgressions and poor decisions after army chiefs were given new powers over their rapidly expanding budgets to ensure “strike readiness” and to combat terrorism.

Military chiefs are especially concerned about being outgunned and encircled by China, which analysts believe is ten years ahead of them in terms of building military might.

To bridge the gap more than £50 billion is expected to be committed over the next decade as India replaces dilapidated Soviet-era arms and buys everything from aircraft carriers to jeeps.

Some critics believe that the money would be better spent tackling poverty. Others fear much will be lost to corruption.

General Kapoor said that he was left speechless by the allegations levelled against the four officers in the Darjeeling land case. “Such aspects dent the image of the nation and these aberrations need to be corrected,” he said.

The court martial also came as an embarrassment to General Kapoor. It was ordered only after the Defence Minster, A. K. Antony, made a highly unusual intervention. Previously Lieutenant-General Prakash, who could now lose his rank and pension and face imprisonment, was due to receive a far less severe punishment.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 011587.ece

[anirban_aim]

Self Deleted. Similar discussion going on in the Armor Thread.

[ramana]

Op-Ed by Maj Gen (ret) Ashok Mehta in Pioneer

http://www.dailypioneer.com/233448/Give ... onomy.html

Give military autonomy

Ashok K Mehta

Hijacked by the media, considerable high drama has surrounded the Sukna land case involving senior Generals of the Indian Army. The turnaround by Chief of Army Staff Gen Deepak Kapoor in ordering disciplinary proceedings against his Military Secretary, Lt Gen Avadhesh Prakash, who had originally been served a show cause notice under the rubric of administrative action, has also attracted some attention. The last minute switch in Gen Kapoor’s decision was prompted by an advisory issued by Defence Minister AK Antony. Both these events reflect strains in civil-military relations and the progressive diminution of the office of the COAS.

Further illustrating the malaise are three recent professional comments by Gen Kapoor on limited war under nuclear overhang; two-front war doctrine; and integration of armies in Nepal. These valid observations were curiously not supported by the Government. Mr Antony should have been more forthright in defending his and the country’s COAS and not let the flak fly at him from abroad. After all, the first two comments relate to accepted Government policy and should have been upheld.

In 2001, after the terrorist attack on Parliament House, at the traditional Army Day Press briefing the then COAS, Gen Padmanabhan, in response to a question about a nuclear first strike by Pakistan, replied that India’s response will be such that Pakistan will cease to exist. The furore created in Pakistan forced National Security Adviser Brajesh Mishra to ask Defence Minister George Fernandes to issue a clarification. But before his did so, he had the grace to consult Gen Padmanabhan. Generals will speak like Generals and not diplomats, thank god. And the advisory from some strategic experts that Service Chiefs preface their remarks with ‘these are my personal views’ is simply baloney. Armed Forces Chiefs voice the feelings of their service, the military and Government policy. They do not speak in their personal capacity.

Returning to the widely-trodden Sukna land, Gen Kapoor, guided by his legal department, opted to follow the administrative action route which gives him many options, including termination of services. The Sukna case has raised a media storm for three months now. Gen Kapoor issued a show cause notice to Lt Gen Prakash three weeks ago. So why on earth did Mr Antony — whose Ministry has been shadowing the case — wait till after the show cause had been given and the reply received? To issue an advisory suddenly shows how out of sync he is with what he ought to be doing to protect the image of the Army and the high office of the COAS. Through his unwise interference in the case, he has diminished the COAS.

Now Lt Gen Prakash has been placed under the Army Act’s Section 123 which subjects him to this law for three years even after he retired last Sunday. There will be a hearing of charges followed by a summary of evidence. Depending on the findings and outcome, disciplinary action could follow. Lt Gen Prakash could appeal to the newly-constituted Army Tribunal and so the Sukna saga will now be long, protracted and hopfully leak-proof.

In 2000, the Ministry of Defence ordered the posting of Vice-Admiral Harinder Singh as Vice-Chief of Naval Staff. Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat, citing the Naval Act which authorises the Chief of Naval Staff to select his own staff, wrote back to the Ministry stating that the orders given were in contravention of the Navy Act and were, therefore, ‘unimplementable’. He held his ground and became the first Service Chief in the history of the armed forces to be dismissed by the President by invoking the ‘pleasure principle’. With 60 days left for retirement, Gen Kapoor followed the ‘discretion is the better part of valour’ dictum.

There is no instance of legitimate military dissent in India. The fault has to be shared by Government’s failure in exercising political control, including higher political direction, and the military hierarchy for cowing down, even when compliance was out of order. The only COAS to have put in his papers because of political interference by Defence Minister V Krishna Menon in the professional domain was Gen KS Thimayya. Unfortunately, he withdrew his resignation; otherwise, the history of civil -military relations would have been different.

In 1992, COAS Gen SF Rodrigues let down his office by first giving a controversial interview to this newspaper in which he said “governance is very much the business of the Army” and called two foreign countries “bandicoots”. He later accepted a dressing down in Parliament by Defence Minister Sharad Pawar. Instead of resigning, Gen Rodrigues continued as a lame duck Chief and, surprisingly, the Government which had served the admonition, 15 years later appointed him Governor of Punjab.

Lt Gen SK Sinha, who had served in Army Headquarters in every rank, authored the Fourth Pay Commission and knew every bureaucratic trick of the trade, was superseded as COAS as the Government thought he would be a difficult customer. Gen Sinha resigned. The Government notification for part of the Fifth Pay Commission award was signed by Defence Secretary Ajit Kumar even as COAS Gen Ved Malik had put his objections in writing. The same drama was witnessed last year when the three Service Chiefs collectively refused to accept the piecemeal award of the Sixth Pay Commission, insisting the anomalies be addressed first. One newspaper editor called it “unprecedented military dissent” but conveniently omitted the word ‘legitimate’.

Britain's Chief of General Staff, Gen Richard Dannat went public about poor pay and acute shortages of helicopters for his soldiers fighting in Afghanistan, a deficiency endorsed by Prime Minister Gordon Brown. He was so outspoken that the Government denied him the appointment of the Chief of Defence Staff and instead gave the incumbent CDS an unprecedented second term. Service Chiefs must speak out and speak up without hankering for post-retirement jobs such as Governor of Goa or Ambassador to Burkina Faso.

The media revolution, nuclear weaponisation in the sub-continent and think-tank proliferation call for political control that ensures a robust working relationship btween the civil and the military for effective use of military power. The services must regain their professional autonomy and certainly respect by the Government, altering the internal civil-military power balance through genuine integration and without fear that a CDS — when appointed — will spring a coup. Addressing the problem of corruption in the armed forces calls for a ‘trialogue’ between Government, civil society and the military. Aberrations are fraught with the risk of becoming a habit.

I am afraid that INC will lead the forces on the downward spiral with the IAS babus leading them on that path with their unseemly fear of military coup.

For balance, AK Anthonyji better take on a few of the corrupt babus. We know he cant take on his political masters.

[somnath]

^^^ The real issue is not bureaucratic shenanigans, but lack of spine in the top brass and lack of political understanding of military affairs..Gen Mehta says pretty much the same thing as well..

The key issues are structural - integration of the services in the MoD, CDS and the like..

Cases of corruption are if anything symptoms of the problem, and quite frankly its not the biggest issue with the services right now..To assume that a large organisation like the services wont have some cases of corruption is as utopian as hoping for Wall Street to behave like Missionaireis of Charity..

the current crop of issues though point out to a deeper malaise in terms of a crisi in leadership in the IA...The Sukhna issue and its aftermath shows up that the brass, or a section of it, is daggers drawn at each other..And ready to go to unfair depths in dissing their colleagues in public...That so many senior officers are so disgruntled is something that Gen Kapoor personally also needs to take responsibility for..He is the Chief and the leadership buck stops with him..The RM's active intervention in a scenario like this cannot be entirely faulted, though the news leaks on them are tasteless...

Hopefully a new dispensation will clear the mess up and restore some sanity!

[RayC]

I would go along with there being no spine to some extent. At the same time, I will also state that there is no spine in the govt or any organisation in India (I can’t state about the world). It is no one’s fault. If ‘committed’ bureaucracy was the GOI policy introduced by Mrs Gandhi, it is obvious that everyone realised that being ‘committed’ to the powers that be was the answer. If Winter comes, can Spring be far behind?

CDS will never come. The GOI is dead scared of a coup given their shoddy governance. And at the same time, I would state the Armed Forces have no clue to govern and so they will not try it. So, we are safe!

When the Army brass finds corruption is the way of life and if they have to compete with the others 5 star lives, they will adopt their ways and build a cosy nest. Shameful it is, but it a fact of life. To me, it is the biggest crisis of life and Missionaries of Charity are perfect?!

Yes, the Sukna case is interesting. Read Daily Mail UK. Cloak and dagger!

Kapoor has not done us proud, not VK Singh. But then, it is the materialist world we live in. Power and rank!

The RM, in my opinion, cannot overrule the DSR and the AA. He has done it. He should also give his advice of all punishment that are given to jawans also! Can this man handle that? How is the poor am admi jawan being treated arbitrarily by his CO? Disband the JAG and have Anthony deciding everything!

Please don’t get me wrong. But to derail and established process would cause serious harm and those who have to defend the country require some authority amongst their rank as per the law to decide. If Anthony’s uncle was in trouble and he intervened, what would be the morale of the Army? In Mulayam’s time, there was such a case where politics ruled supreme.

[somnath]

CDS will never come. The GOI is dead scared of a coup given their shoddy governance. And at the same time, I would state the Armed Forces have no clue to govern and so they will not try it. So, we are safe!

I dont think anyone is scared of a coup anymore..And creation of CDS does not make a coup any less or more probable - Pakistan does not have a CDS structure either! Governance might be sub par, but India's fortunes are infiintely better than what it was 25 years back, and our prospects are right up there with the rest of the civilised world...Therefore fear of a coup IMO simply doesnt exist..the blame for non-implementation of the CDS has to lie with the services..The way IDS has remained an emasculated entity, the fact that the IA goes ahead with a new (Cold Start) doctrine on whose essential elements IAF refuses to sign up on, service chiefs go on record stating how CDS is not a necessity - besides a huge lack of political will and understanding, there is active collusion by the services to not let it happen..

I dont know enough about the Sukhna case..But about the RM intervening, I would say that it is not one incident but a series of them...Starting from the Gen Panag issue, to Gen Singh's age, to the appointment of VCOAS, to repeated media leaks on the Sukhna affair..There seems to be a lack/breakdown of leadership...And in any organisation, the superior authority will intervene in extenuating circumstances, and the textbook too in most cases support that...

[RayC]

CDS will never come. The GOI is dead scared of a coup given their shoddy governance. And at the same time, I would state the Armed Forces have no clue to govern and so they will not try it. So, we are safe!

I dont think anyone is scared of a coup anymore..And creation of CDS does not make a coup any less or more probable - Pakistan does not have a CDS structure either! Governance might be sub par, but India's fortunes are infiintely better than what it was 25 years back, and our prospects are right up there with the rest of the civilised world...Therefore fear of a coup IMO simply doesnt exist..the blame for non-implementation of the CDS has to lie with the services..The way IDS has remained an emasculated entity, the fact that the IA goes ahead with a new (Cold Start) doctrine on whose essential elements IAF refuses to sign up on, service chiefs go on record stating how CDS is not a necessity - besides a huge lack of political will and understanding, there is active collusion by the services to not let it happen..

I dont know enough about the Sukhna case..But about the RM intervening, I would say that it is not one incident but a series of them...Starting from the Gen Panag issue, to Gen Singh's age, to the appointment of VCOAS, to repeated media leaks on the Sukhna affair..There seems to be a lack/breakdown of leadership...And in any organisation, the superior authority will intervene in extenuating circumstances, and the textbook too in most cases support that...

There is more than what meets the eye on the Sukhna issue.

I will leave it at that.

The GOI is scared of the CDS, like it or not.

Take it for what it is worth.

They were scared of Bhagwat and now they have cowed down the cow over the MS.

They appeased Thimmayya!

They were scared of Rodriguez and kicked him in the teeth. That man cowed down and was awarded a Governorship and he is embroiled in scams since he has become a political man.

Yet, on the other hand, I will speak of Gen Lakhera, who is the Governor of Mizoram. Check Gen Khanduri's record who was the Minister in the NDA govt! Clean as a whistle! Takes all types to make the world!

They bought over the last COAS (EDITED)(I forget his name even though we were in the same Squadron!), with a Governorship who was a yessman to Manmohan! Imagine the Chief thinking that if all in Delhi wore the combat uniform, then would have 'josh'! Typical attitude!

I can see the fine print!