Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Feb 2010 22:20

[quote="putnanja"]The good colonel has seen the light! And his articles have been mostly pro-India.............<SNIP>quote]

The good Colonel commanded an Armored Regiment and that too one of the most prestigious unit(17 Horse?)

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 03 Feb 2010 22:22

d_berwal wrote: IA accepted ARJUN in 2001, it took 9+ years to produce enough for 1 Regt, Second Regt Still to get New Tanks, may be by next month

Germans never offered new engine (u have a source)

I remember having read something like that long time back, hence my question. sorry, I don't have a source to back it up.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 03 Feb 2010 22:24

rohitvats wrote:
putnanja wrote:The good colonel has seen the light! And his articles have been mostly pro-India.............<SNIP>
The good Colonel commanded an Armored Regiment and that too one of the most prestigious unit(17 Horse?)

Rohit, I don't doubt his patriotism or service. What I meant to say was that his articles doesn't reflect bias towards any particular defence company or "vested interests". There are a lot of retired officers who work for defence companies. And there are journalists who write "advertorials" or paid articles for the highest bidder. My statement was in that context.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Feb 2010 22:27

d_berwal wrote:
Surya wrote:we do not have details of how many years was because of problems and how many years because of the the Army stubborness

Also T 90s have been accepted with problems (I am still waiting for T 90s trials on open source)

Also not unusual for problems when someone is doing something for the first
Production facility was setup only in 2008 ....

The problems of T-90 did not render the equipment unusable.

The Trial DATA will never be made public..

Are you sure of the bolded part?for AFAIK, if the Catherine TI of my tank goes kaput due to temprature related issues, I'm sitting blind....

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 03 Feb 2010 23:01

D berwal sir,
How much improvement do you reckon the Mk-II Arjun will provide over the Mk-I? What exact short comings are being sorted out? Having experienced first hand the teething problems with Arjun, do you think that today, this point of comparative trials is significant for the arjun program?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Feb 2010 23:01

d_berwal wrote:.....<SNIP>.......
--- With the current CS strategy... hw many IBG's can be converted to ARJUN.... wrt T-90S in the same timescale.
--anyway ARJUN MkII or serial upgarde is in pipeline... lets waite n watch.. 124 is not bad for now. Let IA refine its operational procedures with 124... we all will see more if it fitts well in desired role.
--But ask IA a blank check of 500 is impossibel because a blank check of 124 was a bad exp for IA which took 9+yrs to metarilise...

Point 1: IIRC, the total number(at least till now) of T-90X tanks in the IA will be 1,310. Now assuming that a regiment with T-90x has a block of 55 Tanks (45+10 Reserve),how many regiments of T-90X does that give you?Around ~22 (assuming a regiment worth of tanks with Trg.institute)

God only knows (apart from folks in AHQ) what an IBG will look like. But what we do know is that IA has, at present, 3 Armored Divisions. And each has 6 Armored Regiments.So, how many Regiments of T-90X does that leave you with after equipping your Armored Divisions with the latest toy? Four(4).And what good are these 4 Regiments for? @2 Regiments/Bde-->2 Armored Brigades onleee. And If I go by the information on the Ajai Shukla's website, IA will spend the money only for 1000 or so T-72s.That will give you another ~18 Regiments of upgraded T-72.

IA requirement will be for at least 63 Regiments without counting the proposed IBG. And this is how 63 number is arrived at:

--3*Armored Divisions@6 Regiments each-->18
--7*RAPIDS@2 Regiments each-->14
--7 Infantry Divisions in plains@1 Regiment each-->7
--8*(I) Armored Bde@3 Regiments each-->24

Total-63

Now assuming that an IBG will have an Armored Brigade (with 3 Armored Regiments) at its core (with due apologies to Herr General Guderian...

), that will push up the requirement for another 8*3-->24 Regiments. so, enought room to play around with T-90X, Arjun and upgraded T-72s. This answers your first apprehension.

Point 2:

Let IA refine its operational procedures with 124... we all will see more if it fitts well in desired role.

You make the Arjun look like the ambitious yet impractical science project in "3 IDIOTS" by one of the students and IA as Professor Sahastrabuddhi..... "we will see what we can do....."....Was the IA sleeping when it drew GSOR...you can read the development history and changes in GSQR here:http://frontierindia.net/history-of-arj ... evelopment

Point 3:

But ask IA a blank check of 500 is impossibel because a blank check of 124 was a bad exp for IA which took 9+yrs to metarilise...

Hmmm.....you make it look as if IA was waiting with open arms for Arjun.....The present tank has no issues...so what more does IA want to find out?What sort of guarentee are you looking at by ordering piecemeal?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 03 Feb 2010 23:28

rohitvats wrote:
Are you sure of the bolded part?for AFAIK, if the Catherine TI of my tank goes kaput due to temprature related issues, I'm sitting blind....

I am quite sure

The temperature issue was never put with facts.. one can say on avg dus% out of 100 (TI) did have TI related issues were discovered, but most of them were because of abuse of equipment, like 10hrs plus continuous usage of equipment in 50 degree of temperature etc and some were due to improper procedure of equipment usage. The OEM sorted these issues quite promptly...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Feb 2010 23:40

---self deleted--

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 03 Feb 2010 23:43

rohitvats wrote:
Point 2: You make the Arjun look like the ambitious yet impractical science project in "3 IDIOTS" by one of the students and IA as Professor Sahastrabuddhi..... "we will see what we can do....."....Was the IA sleeping when it drew GSOR...you can read the development history and changes in GSQR here:http://frontierindia.net/history-of-arj ... evelopment
what an imagination u have and where is Chetan Bhagat

Point 3:Hmmm.....you make it look as if IA was waiting with open arms for Arjun.....The present tank has no issues...so what more does IA want to find out?What sort of guarentee are you looking at by ordering piecemeal?

how do u know what the present tank has or does not have. even the manufacturer has not even relieved the details of its true capabilities... IA has all the right to test an equipment till the time it does not pass its induction tests... they will not risk the life of ppl based on DDM articles and armchair-general's opinion

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Feb 2010 23:47

d_berwal wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
Are you sure of the bolded part?for AFAIK, if the Catherine TI of my tank goes kaput due to temprature related issues, I'm sitting blind....
I am quite sure

The temperature issue was never put with facts.. one can say on avg dus% out of 100 (TI) did have TI related issues were discovered, but most of them were because of abuse of equipment, like 10hrs plus continuous usage of equipment in 50 degree of temperature etc and some were due to improper procedure of equipment usage. The OEM sorted these issues quite promptly...

The number bandied about was 90-100 systems.And the arguments about the extended usage of TI and high temp do not fly. Are we saying that with the said equipment T-90X can fight only for certain hours or during certain hours? Improper usage is another matter. And last I heard, IA was talking to OEM for installation of aircon. for maintaining the temp in the tank for proper functioning of FCS and TI combo.

PS: Any update on the aircon thing? There is a very less space on these tanks to shove in anything else...

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 03 Feb 2010 23:53

rohitvats wrote: The number bandied about was 90-100 systems.And the arguments about the extended usage of TI and high temp do not fly. Are we saying that with the said equipment T-90X can fight only for certain hours or during certain hours? Improper usage is another matter. And last I heard, IA was talking to OEM for installation of aircon. for maintaining the temp in the tank for proper functioning of FCS and TI combo.

PS: Any update on the aircon thing? There is a very less space on these tanks to shove in anything else...

source of 90-100 numbers pls

have u been inside a T-90X,

no one not even ur beloved Leo2, M1A2 can have their TI switched on continuous, one only switches on for engagements... then one switches off... these things have a life in hours.... then one needs to replace a TI....

no engagement will last for 10+ hour in 50degree that is what i am saying...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Feb 2010 23:59

d_berwal wrote: ...<SNIP>...
how do u know what the present tank has or does not have. even the manufacturer has not even relieved the details of its true capabilities... IA has all the right to test an equipment till the time it does not pass its induction tests... they will not risk the life of ppl based on DDM articles and armchair-general's opinion.....

Thank you for the compliment...

As for the reliability and induction test, good sir, you're tilting at windmills....

Allow me to jog your memory about AUCRT conducted by the IA:

Meanwhile, Army carried out the Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) in 5 phases on two tanks from Nov 2007 to Aug 2008 covering more than 8000 km and 800 rounds of firing in each tank. AUCRT is required for assessing the spares requirement for the entire life of the tank besides evaluation of reliability of tank. Each phase consists of 1000kms run and 100EFC (Approx. 160 rounds of APFSDS and HESH – Primary and secondary rounds) over a temperature range of -5 to 500C. One of the main issues during AUCRT trials was the failure of the bearings of Transmission of M/s RENK, Germany, due to rise in lub oil temperature. However, this was immediately solved by modifying the software during AUCRT itself and the efficacy of the software was proved for more than 4000kms. However a comprehensive solution of modifying the bearing assembly by providing a special coating was carried out to take care of the temperature problem and the retrofitment of bearing assembly being carried out in all the tanks.

The outcome of AUCRT trials raised the confidence levels of the users over the reliability and endurance of MBT Arjun and they confirmed that the overall performance of the MBT Arjun during the stringent AUCRT trials was satisfactory and cleared the production tanks with minor modifications suggested during AUCRT, for induction. Both CVRDE and HVF along with DGQA agencies worked out methodologies to introduce all AUCRT modifications within shortest time frame and the next batch of 17 tanks were handed over to Army by 3rd March 2009.

As suggested by Army after AUCRT trials, Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment by a third party audit (an internationally reputed tank manufacturer). After the extensive evaluation, the reputed tank manufacturer confirmed that the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics suitable for Indian desert. They also added inputs such as quality auditing, production procedures and refined calibration procedures for further enhancing the performance of MBT Arjun. DRDO, will be incorporating all these inputs in the next regiment of 62 tanks for handing over to Army before Mar 2010 as desired by the Army.

The regiment of 45 tanks will be subjected to a conversion training and field practice for a period of 3 months. Thereafter, the Army is planning to conduct a comparative trial with T 90 tanks in Oct/Nov 2009 to assess the operational deployment role of the tanks. The present batch of 124 tanks will be delivered by Mar 2010.

You can read the full article here:http://frontierindia.net/indian-army-ge ... -mbt-arjun

So, If I take your assertion about life and limb correctly, is IA inducting 124 Arjuns for conducting guinea pig experiments on the men of 43rd and 75th Armored Regiment?

Please get a grip on your arguments.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Feb 2010 00:05

d_berwal wrote:
rohitvats wrote: The number bandied about was 90-100 systems.And the arguments about the extended usage of TI and high temp do not fly. Are we saying that with the said equipment T-90X can fight only for certain hours or during certain hours? Improper usage is another matter. And last I heard, IA was talking to OEM for installation of aircon. for maintaining the temp in the tank for proper functioning of FCS and TI combo.

PS: Any update on the aircon thing? There is a very less space on these tanks to shove in anything else...
source of 90-100 numbers pls

have u been inside a T-90X,

no one not even ur beloved Leo2, M1A2 can have their TI switched on continuous, one only switches on for engagements... then one switches off... these things have a life in hours.... then one needs to replace a TI....

no engagement will last for 10+ hour in 50degree that is what i am saying...

Actually me having seen inside of anything has very little to do with merits or otherwise of T-90X or any other tank. But if it helps you, I haven't seen a T-90X. But I was fortunate to have some fun in a T-72/T-55 and Arjun (the first models inducted).

And your explanation about the TI on/off actually reminded me of the other problem in TI during this time. IIRC, they were having problem in booting (if I may use the word) back after they went kaput. Let me check the some my archives....

But would you be aware of this problem (this is genuine question...)?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Feb 2010 00:12

putnanja wrote:......

Rohit, I don't doubt his patriotism or service. What I meant to say was that his articles doesn't reflect bias towards any particular defence company or "vested interests". There are a lot of retired officers who work for defence companies. And there are journalists who write "advertorials" or paid articles for the highest bidder. My statement was in that context.

Wasn't questioning the line of your post.That post of mine was a matter of fact type onleeeeeeeee........

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 04 Feb 2010 00:14

rohitvats wrote:
d_berwal wrote:
source of 90-100 numbers pls

have u been inside a T-90X,

no one not even ur beloved Leo2, M1A2 can have their TI switched on continuous, one only switches on for engagements... then one switches off... these things have a life in hours.... then one needs to replace a TI....

no engagement will last for 10+ hour in 50degree that is what i am saying...
Actually me having seen inside of anything has very little to do with merits or otherwise of T-90X or any other tank. But if it helps you, I haven't seen a T-90X. But I was fortunate to have some fun in a T-72/T-55 and Arjun (the first models inducted).

And your explanation about the TI on/off actually reminded me of the other problem in TI during this time. IIRC, they were having problem in booting (if I may use the word) back after they went kaput. Let me check the some my archives....

But would you be aware of this problem (this is genuine question...)?

search the archives.... i only put it up in one of my comments some odd months back...

same here dude + PT-76, t-90x, CIA T-72, Karan, Vijayanta, Arjun the PPS and production.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 04 Feb 2010 00:19

rohitvats wrote: So, If I take your assertion about life and limb correctly, is IA inducting 124 Arjuns for conducting guinea pig experiments on the men of 43rd and 75th Armored Regiment?

Please get a grip on your arguments.

you are so wrong in your assertion... your r twisting i never said that.

I replied to a question you asked. And yes IA has all rights to get an equipment passed through n no of trials till they pass the test.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 04 Feb 2010 00:23

Piercing the army's armour of deception

final piece of 3 articles

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Feb 2010 00:32

^^^From above article:

No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90’s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident — and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan — that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90’s thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn’t work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90’s fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought

The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world’s current tanks, other than France’s LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India’s Arjun tank, too, has “hardened” electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.

Karma is a BI#@*

PS:How did Col.Shukla know there is debate going on, on BR?

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 04 Feb 2010 00:37

Col Shukla has been long pestered by fans of his blog (including yours truly) to come up with something on the Arjun (See comments secton of his previous several articles). No idea if he reads BRF anymore. Last I recall he was pretty annoyed.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 04 Feb 2010 00:56

We need to have an FAQ on Arjun -- to be made sticky on page 1 like TSP dhaaga. Maybe I will do it with appropriate credit and citations. Anybody wants to help me?

That should include comparison of mobility (Arjun has lower ground pressure than T90, Arjun can ford deeper, cross longer trenches, climb higher gradients), and the T90 Indian-b@lls-in-Russian-fist nautanki (refusing to do TOT, 347 additional orders, TI sight issues, refusing to provide access to enable firing of Indian ammo by modifying FCS, a missile that nobody knows if it works ityadi).

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Feb 2010 01:02

aditp

please edit your post and correct the name

Else Admin please blow away that post

well so much for the 14 crores - now itlooks the T 90 cost have ballooned

Good job by Broadsword on digging out the skeletons

and more ex army jernails going public with support for the Arjun

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 04 Feb 2010 01:19

d_berwal wrote:IA accepted ARJUN in 2001, it took 9+ years to produce enough for 1 Regt, Second Regt Still to get New Tanks, may be by next month

According to Ajai Shukla:

Falsehood No. 1: “70 Arjuns have been rolled out in 8 years!”

Wrong. These 70 tanks have taken less than two years to manufacture. The Arjun’s series production didn’t start in 2000… it only began last year. And the Arjun production line is already very close to producing its installed capacity of 50 tanks a year.

rohitvats wrote:The good Colonel commanded an Armored Regiment and that too one of the most prestigious unit(17 Horse?)

Hodson’s Horse. He's been a tank man for 20+ years, if I remember correctly

Anujan wrote:We need to have an FAQ on Arjun -- to be made sticky on page 1 like TSP dhaaga. Maybe I will do it with appropriate credit and citations. Anybody wants to help me?

This and this would be an excellent start.

.

Can you email me at elmihiro at yahoo? I'd like to help out with the FAQ. Speaking of which... wasn't JCage working on a comprehensive article on the Arjun a few years back? Wonder what happened to it.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 04 Feb 2010 05:46

d_berwal wrote:
124 Arjun x 17.5 cr = 2170cr

2170cr / 14per/t90 = 155 T-90

29 more tanks for the same money spent

According to the new article per unit cost of t-90 is 17.5cr.
So now it changes the equation.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 04 Feb 2010 05:51

most learned mallanas of ze armoured thread a yumble question onlee:

As per the good colonel's article the cost of upgrade is broken down between:

- New injun
-Therman FCS
- APU
- TI for ze commander

My question is if all this is being upgraded what happens to the armour suite? does the cost of upgrade of the armour suite included in this or is this a further upgrade of the CIA T72s?

Also given that the T90 had issues with the TI and stuff (IIRC it uses the Catherine from France) in terms of not being able to take the heat. Does that mean that the T72s too will need a new air conditioner and all?

If so will this be able to be powered by the new APU also I would imagiine that there will be additional cost of upgrading the AC unit as well then...

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 04 Feb 2010 07:45

Is there any possibility, that Anthony / GOI will force the Army to buy Arjun’s, because of the
financial implications to Indian economy. Thousands of jobs plus ancillary industry that will be created to
build nearly 2000 tanks!

If the Indians go with local manufacturing they can upgrade the tank by making the required mechanical enhancements (engine) by getting help from the Germans and the Israelis help for electronic and night fighting capabilities.

vina · Post by **vina** » 04 Feb 2010 08:53

Hmm. So our Diyar Karnail Shook Law has finally put in print what was discussed threadbare in BR long long long ago (just go through all the archived Arjun/Armor threads).

The only new "facts"/data point that Ajai Shukla brings out is the fact that the Indian built Invar missiles simply did not work!.

Other than that ,it was well know that the T-90 we have with us did not have the Arena/Shtora and the other brouchure advertised ding dongs, the Catherine TI + Peling sight was a disastrous combo that didnt work in Indian summers (and the irony is that the former DGMFs harrumphed and "rejected" the Arjun earlier for the exact same reason and when the DRDO broached air conditioning, the answer was bah!.. what do you thing we are, a bunch of wusses ?.. We are the uptight folks made of iron, who would give up some 20 bhp of engine power rather than drive and fight in cool air conditioned comfort).. the entire sorry story of the airconditioning, lack of APU (no space you see, it sits in a separate housing above the rear trail fender, not inside the engine compartment in a T series)and hence the T_90 cannot fight "passively" and silently (it needs to turn on the engine and will show up like a christmas light in the TI if enemy tanks and helcopter and other assets with disastrous consequences.. just ask the Iraqis whose tanks had to do something similar and were swatted like flies by the Abrams, Challengers and the Apaches)...

Add to that the entire sorry story of inadequate main armor, beefed up by ERA packs and all that and ammo lying all around waiting to be cooked off in a hit. It really is a disastrous shameful story.

The most scandalous of all is that the T-90 was probably never inducted with a serious trial and if those were done, the results were never published . It was okay for the Army to have imported the 310+ in the first lot as a rush import in respose to the T-80 UD acquisition by the Pakistanis. But to persist with that and double the stakes on a dead end bad bet , especially when the Arjun has matured and is now ready is scandalous to say the least.

But I do think with the T-90 deal in trouble, the Natashas are going to be gob smacked from now. The attempt by the Natashas to scuttle the Arjun winter/summer trials by sabotage (I really really think sabotage was the most plausible, nothing else stands to reason, unless someone in authority comes out and says exactly what failed and why) was rank treachery and deserved the firing squad.

Hmm, Ajai Shukla has sure come a long way. From sprouting unvarnished garbage on the lines of "Arjun is a dabba" (I think that was courtesy of his beer buddies/ DGMF brass) to outgrowing that to actually putting in a lot of hard work, effort and thought and coming up with some intelligent and well written articles.

And of course that was tracked and recorded here at BR at well. And of course he does read BR , I am pretty sure of that , and I am willing to bet on that. I had invited him back to BR long ago (Allah is most merciful and forgiving after all).

Well , Diyar Karnail Shook Law (since I was the one who used that first , I think you know the back ground when it was first used.. it was one of your articles and I had writtien.. Shook Law ain't just Shakin it, He's Rockin), time to stop lurking I think. Anyways.. Good job with finally writing up the sorry story of the armor procurement, though it took you quite a while I think.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Feb 2010 08:55

The current Arjun is a revamped old Arjun and meeting the criteria.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Feb 2010 09:06

vina wrote:Hmm. So our Diyar Karnail Shook Law has finally put in print what was discussed threadbare in BR long long long ago (just go through all the archived Arjun/Armor threads)......<SNIP>................

I was wondering why Vina garu did not join in the debate considering the past history of the topic on this forum...

But as far as the numbers are concerned, I think we can accomodate the three varities.....T-90X/T-72/Arjun. The indcution pace of T-90X and phasing out of older T-72s need to be matched with production and induction pace of Arjun.

Bakc of the envelope calculation shows we'll need ~85-90 Armored Regiments to man planned armored formations. And I'd say even those are less.We need at least one more Armored Division for the XII Corps to care of Corps Reserves in PA V and XXXI Corps to ensure that 31st Armored Division does not get bogged down in defencive operations.

vina · Post by **vina** » 04 Feb 2010 09:06

RayC wrote:The current Arjun is a revamped old Arjun and meeting the criteria.

Problem RayC is that the "old Arjun" was a platform that was at it's infancy with all the room and potential for growth and now it has matured into a handsome young man.

The T-72 platform was already into it's middle ages and now is a doddering old man in the T-90 guise and has no more life/room for growth. The only way out is for it to kick the bucket. The Russians know that very well and we will see a whole new platform debuting for the next gen Russian MBTs.

If the Indian Army wants to be a bunch of suckers and invest some $5b and plod over the next 30 years with a platform that is way past it's sell by date, what else can I call that , but as an insult to basic intelligence.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Feb 2010 09:07

in an earlier trial attempt to tamper with the engine and gearbox was detected. could only be vested interests in the IA.

the germans (renk & mtu) placed some anti-tamper devices in the engine
bay on request of drdo to catch such future occurences.

the power of the russian lobby is such even a commander in IN who held
back the Talwar class delivery until Shtil issues were fixed was run down
by a truck while out for his morning walk.

who knows how many people have been silenced and cowed down in such ways.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Feb 2010 09:25

What went wrong

Poor planning, over-optimistic timelines and a lack of coordination with the Armed Forces led to cost and time overruns of major defence projects taken up by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), says the first external review of the research body.

The P Rama Rao committee, which was formed to revamp the organisation, has said that the major cause for delays and failures of indigenous defence products is DRDO’s tendency to over-estimate its capabilities. The inability of the research body to involve the Armed Forces in developmental projects

from the start has been identified as a major area of concern.

As far as the IA's intelligence is concerned, one has to cut their coat according to the cloth.

One plans not from budget to budget, but with the future op scenario. Therefore, one cannot hope to await for the wonder product and instead do what one can do from 'off the shelf'!

Money being India's bugbear, one takes the cheapest and what can meet the bill in the interim. There is also directives from political leaders who base it on geopolitical pulls and pressures. The IAF getting aircraft is a case in point, where the decision is pending and the US most probably will bag the order because of political considerations. There is a very interesting article in Purple Beret.

Not a good way to go, but that is how it goes.

Ramarao report is not a military report.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 04 Feb 2010 09:45

Ajai Shukla's latest salvo

But this statement caught my eye:

Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s’ drawbacks will not be evident.

After paragraphs and paragraphs of blowing holes in T-90's defence, he sort of admits defeat.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 04 Feb 2010 09:54

^^^ I really don't understand how the Army can pull off such a scam. Defense Minister AK Antony has been making positive statements about Arjun from time to time. But how is it that he was not able to over-rule those Army-men who were involved in the scam?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Feb 2010 09:57

The T-72 platform was already into it's middle ages and now is a doddering old man in the T-90 guise and has no more life/room for growth. The only way out is for it to kick the bucket. The Russians know that very well and we will see a whole new platform debuting for the next gen Russian MBTs.

On the issue of doddering old man in T 90 guise, one must realise that to build a 'new platform' anew is an expensive and time consuming process and by the time it is made, the operation scenario for which is was aimed has changed. Therefore, equipment gets ugraded to suit the op environment of the near future and modern technology gets incorporated.

Lets give some examples from the Purple Beret (article by Gp Capt Ramesh Sukumaran):

The American F 18 and F 16 are basically upgrades of essential 70s models, with new radars and avionics.

MiG 35 is a further development of the MiG 29 platform, though the Russians claim it an entirely new platform.

It does not make me uncomfortable as what the GOI is doing, since I am sure they know what is good for the country and so does the Army who must have cranked in the op scenario the tank is to operate in based on the tactics current.

The Arjun must be a good tank since it has gone through much upgrades and tweaking to be current.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Feb 2010 09:58

After paragraphs and paragraphs of blowing holes in T-90's defence, he sort of admits defeat.

no sir ji, he is merely saying that the army can organize 15 smoothly running T-90's with all the gizmos for the duel. the real state of the fleet is quite something else.
T-90's serviceability and performance (I'm not even talking of the production) has been notorious. all this has been hushed up.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Feb 2010 09:59

Dmurphy wrote:Ajai Shukla's latest salvo

But this statement caught my eye:
Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s’ drawbacks will not be evident.
After paragraphs and paragraphs of blowing holes in T-90's defence, he sort of admits defeat.

Ask him in his blog, why so?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Feb 2010 10:03

Dmurphy

I saw that and thought he meant the relative winter vs summer issue.

But clarify with him on his blog

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Feb 2010 10:05

Rahul M wrote: no sir ji, he is merely saying that the army can organize 15 smoothly running T-90's with all the gizmos for the duel. the real state of the fleet is quite something else.
T-90's serviceability and performance (I'm not even talking of the production) has been notorious. all this has been hushed up.

I am sure there will 15 smooth running Arjuns and I am sure non functioning Arjuns will be there for the trails.

What are the QR being laid down to test the tanks is what is important.

Arjun has just been inducted and its serviceability and performance is too early to judge. It has to participate in exercises before one could comment.

Vijayanta was a much touted tank. However, it overheated in the desert!

I am neither for T 90 nor Arjun. Whatever is good should be selected. The tank boys are the best judge since they will use it in battle. If they select a lemon, then they shall have to pay with their lives.

The state of the fleet depends on the availability of the spares and the budget.

After Brasstacks, the state of the whole IA equipment was dangerously low!

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 04 Feb 2010 10:16

Rahul M wrote:
After paragraphs and paragraphs of blowing holes in T-90's defence, he sort of admits defeat.
no sir ji, he is merely saying that the army can organize 15 smoothly running T-90's with all the gizmos for the duel. the real state of the fleet is quite something else.
T-90's serviceability and performance (I'm not even talking of the production) has been notorious. all this has been hushed up.

RM, Arjun supporters including Col. Shukla have been clamouring for these comparative trials since years now! Didn't they see this problem coming?

And please do not mistake me for a 'T-90 supporter' or an 'Arjun hater'. It just feels like the Col. is developing cold feet and doesn't feel so good about the comparative trials now. And flip-flops like these will only raise question marks over his credibility.

And if all that he says is true, there should be a high level enquiry ordered into the T-90 purchases.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 04 Feb 2010 10:21

Now that the decision to induct T-90s has been taken some time, better to go ahead with the decision to implement this decision.

If not, the state of armor could be perilously like the pathetic state of the Artillery arm.