Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 04 Feb 2010 10:35

Though, some stalwarts on this forum disagree, I am of the firm opinion that talking to Pakistan has everything to do with apeasing Indian muslims. From 2004 onwards, every terror hit only helped Muslims moving towards INC. Some think here that Indian Muslims have moved on since 1947 and Pakistan is not a factor in their lives but I respectfully disagree.

Off cource there is no doubt that US also want India talking to Pakistan for a different but similar reason.

Both domestically and internationally if we go back in a time machine to 1980s ( my favorite period of analysis) and early 1990s, I beleive we have answers regarding why US wants us to talk to Pak and why INC also wants to talk to Pak.

Internationally
* Jihadi factory is busy with anti-Isreal and anti-Russia operations. Kashmir was third in the priority hence India did not face the entire factory output
* Both the West ( US and Western Europe) milked cheap Oil from middle east using the favorable regimes while these regimes in collusion with west funded the entire factory.
* First problem - Some of the factory became job-less to an extent after Rubin and Arafat made a deal.
* Second problem - End of cold war released all the factory employees

At this time the best visible thing available for Islamic factory was Kashmir. Using Robin Raphel etc., they decided to make all the factory employed against Kashmir and which is also direct interest to our western neighbor. West failed and there was a time-lag to make Kashmir fight equivalant to that of Israel or Russia. Meanwhile unemployed factory employees turned their guns on the west which is called as alkeeda.

Bush wanted to confront it and change the world order in a different way. The Dems admin still has confidence that they can return back to golden 80s and make Kashmir as next employable area for all the Jeehadis. It is this thought process where they want to see good Taliban, someone equivalant to Zia (in Kiyani) and then operationalize the factory slowly in Kashmir. Here is where even Saudi's importance in solving Afghan problem comes into picture.

The challenges:
1) Western Europe is not keen in this rollback to 1980s as they are getting equivalant free oil from Russia.
2) There are no strategies for US regarding how to keep the non-pasthun areas of Afghan happy in this factory-restart deal

India domestically
* In 1980s Muslims voted to INC as a single block. Apeasement of those days is multi-fold at micro/macro level.
* Even post 1965 and 1971, INC had to do a rope trick to get alienated Muslim vote into its fold. 1971 was easy because of Bangla Muslims. Post 1965, INC lost a lot of seats and Indira was also dependent on Left to survive ( INC split also is the reason)
* The first anger of Muslims was visible when Ayodhya temple was opened by Rajiv. It did not move away totally.
* It started moving away after India started diplomatic relations with Israel
* It got wiped out when Babri collapsed

From 2004 onwards, INC did all the manoverabilty it can do after every terror attack. Most of us blame Shivraj patil as dumb etc. but his non-decision making is the real reason for Muslims to beleive that their past glory will be returned only if INC comes back to power and not Mulayams and Left. The approach is very simple as they show every apeasement openly with (1) stop Afzal hanging (2) Never allow arrests from sleeper cells and on top of that protect them (there are several examples) (3) Open channels with Pak (aman-ki-asha types). It paid rich dividends at elections.

In their onward march on this pursuit - Mumbai blasts and IPL types are just hurdles. They have the will power and they will march on with slight delays.

Kashmir burning and once in a while terror attack on India are very convinient things for US, Pakistan and Indian ruling congress party. All these three entities will keep trying to achieve that. The only challenges they will face are certain game changing events that happened in late 90s and the first decade of 21 century.

For US: Kashmir burns so that jehadis are having fulltime job and also 9/11s may not repeat and Middle Eastern kingdoms will survive
For Pak: Can be united using Islamic takleef and jeehad for Kashmir could be uniting factor
For INC of India: Every Terror attack will give them oppurtunity to show to IMs that how loyal they are to them by not taking action on any criminal even though they are caught red handed. Few people here and there dead is not going to change anything in India. Soldiers are anyway paid to die. Few Unnikrishnans are alway expendable. There are Padma awards and Ashok chakras for such folks.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 04 Feb 2010 10:50

sanjaykumar ji, What hope do we have if we can't even keep Pakis out of a private event (IPL) without inviting howls from every Tom,Dick and Harry and mind you these TD&H are the ones who formulate and implement policies.
Our only hope is that Pakistan would find its own solution.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 04 Feb 2010 11:19

Well that is probably the single biggest problem India has-as a democracy and given the complex histories. ethnicities, religious identities, language, culture, refugees; India simply has too many constituencies it has to pay heed to. I think this is what really causes the paralysis of strategic planning.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 04 Feb 2010 11:19

Muppalla, Your argument is based upon the assumption that folks in INC are under the assumption that IM's somehow favor Pakis and any talks with Pakistan would reap them electoral awards. Do IM's actually think like that. I doubt so.
Isn't the inaction on terror attacks a double edged sword for INC. The more they procrastinate and let Jehadis flourish in India, more are the odds that BJP (or any other party) will occupy the nationalistic space and even the WKK would turn away from INC.
Regarding the International scenrio, Now that the Gennie of Jehadis has been unleashed on the international stage, I don't think you can bottle it back into Kashmir and keep it focussed there.
I think Kashmir card has been exhausted by Pakistani Jehadis and now they are onto bigger better stuff (Refer OBL talking about Global warming). After all who wants to keep hitting a meek fellow who doesn't react when you are looking for a fight.Arjun Sahasrabahu can be a good analogy here.

Having said that , I don't know, you might be right. After all truth is stranger than fiction.

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Feb 2010 11:23

TOI has a report on JUD and other AMAN ka groups scheduled to meet in Muzzaffarabad (POK) on Thursday. Now only if we could dispatch a fleet of IL-76s to rain several hundred tonnes of dossiers over the area .

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 04 Feb 2010 11:24

sanjaykumar wrote:Well that is probably the single biggest problem India has-as a democracy and given the complex histories. ethnicities, religious identities, language, culture, refugees; India simply has too many constituencies it has to pay heed to. I think this is what really causes the paralysis of strategic planning.

I think strategic planning would happen only when planners realize that Pakistan is a problem that needs to be resolved in one way or the other.
Right now I don't see that happening other than at BRF.
We at BRF clutch the straw and call every move by GoI as Chanikiyan hoping that somehow some miracle would happen which would take care of this problem.
After all didn't our fav. PVNR ji glorified non-action as some kind of action.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 04 Feb 2010 11:26

I agree and my two posts above sum up what I have learnt on BRF over the last 10 years wrt Pakistan. reality bites.

arun · Post by **arun** » 04 Feb 2010 11:47

abhishek_sharma wrote:Soldier Deaths Draw Focus to U.S. Presence in Pakistan

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/04/world ... pstan.html ........... {Snipped}

Hmmm ……….. turns out the Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has been lying to its own people about the presence of US troops on Pakistani soil, and not just any old troops but members of the US Special Operations Command.

For all the bluster of how the people of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan value honour and dignity above all else, I would not expect any sense of outrage from the people of Pakistan commiserate with that self declared love for honour and dignity. This simply because when the armed forces of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan feels it expedient to act as quislings, the people of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are rendered into Sheeple.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 04 Feb 2010 12:33

sanjaykumar wrote:If corporate India — including electronic and print media — starts practicing it, then we can see results in a few years.

The question is what results does India want to see? There is not even a consensus on India needing to theek Pakistan. Does India have any strategic objectives in place or is the plan to continue ad hoc and hope for the best.

Pakistan is the illegitimate and deformed offspring produced by the union of colonialism and Jihadist fanaticism - with Jinnah acting as the pimp.

Both forces which parented Pakistan are inherently illegitimate. It is thus inevitable that Pakistan will collapse under the weight of its own internal contradictions. That time is now fast approaching.

India's goal should be to protect itself from the flailing limbs while Pakistan goes down. So arriving at some modus vivendi through talks is not a bad idea, provided India's red lines are not breached. Such a modus vivendi may in fact accelerate the collapse, since hatred of India is the fraying thread that is holding that unviable nation together.

The West has been providing life-support to the Pakis for the past six decades, mainly for the purpose of hobbling India. Now the Pakis have become an unwanted problem child for the West. The West wants to solve this problem by shifting the burden onto India, using Headley-type creatures. This we must prevent. The West should either deal with their own bad karma, or they should collaborate with India to manage the collapse of the Pakis. But India cannot allow that burden to be dumped on her. From this angle too, establishing a modus vivendi with the Pakis is not a bad thing.

Post-collapse, India's goal should support the emergence of independent ethically-based states, which will eventually have the same relationship with India as Sri Lanka or Nepal. Balochistan and Gilgit-Baltistan are already ready for this. Pakhtunkhwa and Sindh are almost there. Pakjabis will need considerable re-education, but it is not impossible.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 04 Feb 2010 12:54

negi wrote:TOI has a report on JUD and other AMAN ka groups scheduled to meet in Muzzaffarabad (POK) on Thursday. Now only if we could dispatch a fleet of IL-76s to rain several hundred tonnes of dossiers over the area .

Good news. CNN-IBN will talk about it for hours. This will push the govt on the back foot. Let us see how the govt responds.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 04 Feb 2010 13:04

Strangely, there were three forces that were out there of which two were thinking they are doing something smart to cook the third's goose. The third thought it was a bad idea and a disaster. One was West (represented by UK), the other was Jehadis represented by Jinnah and the third was Gandhi/Congress led India.

Now the situation is reverse.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Feb 2010 13:20

deleted. anupmisra already posted what Umpire Hair said of Afridi.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Feb 2010 14:43

GP and others are echoing what many of us have been saying for aeons,that there's no use talking to Pak,we have to send that terrorist state to "Coventry",A total boycott,battening hatches,sealing borders,cutting off all sporting links,overflights,etc.,etc.,until Pak hnds over Dawood and those responsible for 26/11 and the other ungodly species who operate from its territory.The perpetration of this terror outrage against India is planned right from the desk of the Paki army chief,Gen."Kill-any",the vulture.We use as much diplomatic skill as well in branding Pak as the wold's teror epicentre (not too difficult these days!) and rate nations according to their cooperation with India in ostracising and acting against Pak.Countries like the US who still sell arms to Pak and drones,must be treated with contempt and cooperation with their military severely curtailed,especially after their asinine militayr chief wants India armtwisted into effectively handing over Kashmir to Pak!

I wonder how Om-Baba will react to this act of backstabbing and betrayal by his pet rent-boy.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 89072.html

Pakistani scientist guilty of trying to kill US agents
Thursday, 4 February 2010

An American-trained Pakistani scientist has been found guilty of attempting to murder US agents while she was detained for questioning in Afghanistan.

After the jury in a federal court in Manhattan gave its verdict yesterday, Aafia Siddiqui, 37, raised her arm and shouted: "This is a verdict coming from Israel, not America."

She had been arrested by Afghan police in July 2008 on suspicion of carrying chemicals and notes referring to "mass-casualty attacks" in New York.

During the two-week trial, FBI agents and US soldiers testified that when they went to interrogate Siddiqui at an Afghan police station, she snatched up an unattended assault rifle and shot at them while yelling, "Death to Americans". She was wounded by return fire but recovered and was brought to the United States to face charges of attempted murder, assault and gun charges.

Rights groups say she spent five years in secret US jails. She faces a maximum sentence of life in prison. :

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Feb 2010 14:53

negi wrote:TOI has a report on JUD and other AMAN ka groups scheduled to meet in Muzzaffarabad (POK) on Thursday. Now only if we could dispatch a fleet of IL-76s to rain several hundred tonnes of dossiers over the area .

From NewExpress,

Former chief of Pakistan's Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI) Hamid Gul, an invitee to the conference, said the Pakistan government was aware about the jehadi rally and India's unhappiness did not matter.

"If India is feeling unhappy, let them (be)," Gul told news channel Times Now. He said the meeting was "an important human cause" and India should "face the reality in Kashmir".

Denying that the JuD, banned by the UN, was a terror outfit, Gul said: "India and Pakistan should make clear the distinction between terrorists and freedom fighters."

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 04 Feb 2010 15:01

Anyone else smell something's burning?? Well, seem to me Sri Unkil's ekhanomic goose is overcooked only. Its jobless masses will beseige DC sooner or later. Its days as globocop, and pretend-play of unwitting hegemon, mann-maani in Af-Pak etc etc have a shelf-life, seems like.

So after unkil leaves fak-ap, what then? Will unkil continue to care that India and TSP be on good terms and talk to each other? Because then TSP troop positions east or west shouldn't matter so much to unkil anymore. And supply lines wouldn't matter either because NATO would've left in a hurry declaring victory on the way out.

I can only hope that the ceaseless bak-sheesh that props up TSP will come down somewhat because unkil's balls will be out of fak-up and not that vulnerable to TSP claws. Or so I hope.

As for all this aman ka ass tamasha, the next big attack (and they're planning something spectacular, no doubt) will put pay to that. Fact that 26/11 caused dialog breakdown lasting 14 months is no mean achievement only. I guess.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Feb 2010 15:04

Muppalla wrote:Though, some stalwarts on this forum disagree, I am of the firm opinion that talking to Pakistan has everything to do with apeasing Indian muslims. From 2004 onwards, every terror hit only helped Muslims moving towards INC. Some think here that Indian Muslims have moved on since 1947 and Pakistan is not a factor in their lives but I respectfully disagree.

Mupalla - interesting that you should say this. Just this morning I was contemplating writing up an article - either for SRR or as a new thread with a thesis on a related thought - but expressed as a "color-negative" of this. Let me explain that (If I can

)

Fundametally I see Pakistan as anti-Hindu. The only thing that has thus far prevented me from writing the above mentioned article is that I have not made it a point to assiduously collect up all Pakistani references that are anti-Hindu in nature. I have been too busy studying Pakistan internally and seein how Islamic Pakistan is to concentrate on the other side of the coin - the fact f how anti-Hindu Pakistan is as a result of its being so Islamic.

Technically (and when you examine the issue without talking about India and Pakistan) it can be argued that being islamic does not necessarily mean being anti-Hindu. Whatever the truth or otherwise of this statement, the fact is that being Muslim and Pakistani goes hand in hand with being anti-Hindu. Let us not split hairs about Brahmin and Bania because "Brahmin" and "Bania" are seen as "Hindu oppressors" and all others as assorted kafirs or Muslims under the subjugation of the Brahmin and Bania.

Pakistanis see India as a country of Hindu oppressors and India's faults are all the faults of this oppression. "Muslim appeasement" in India is a subset of trying to wash away the accusation of "Hindu oppression". But that is not the point.

the accusation of Hindu oppression is the basis of Pakistan. The idea of Pakistan is summed up very well by the Stephen Cohen himself in a book by the same name.. Pakistan was meant to be a homeland for the Muslims of the subcontinent safe from "Hindu oppression". You may get anything in Pakistan, but there will be no Hindu oppression in Pakistan.

It is not a crime to be Islamic. But I believe it is a travesty to be anti-Hindu for no reason other than a claim that Hinduism is against Islam or that Hindus are against Islam. Once you set up the strawman - the "reductio ad Hitlerium" (Thanks Rahul M) that Hindus are bad, everything else follows from that.

It is not as if Pakistan is Islamic and India is anti-Muslim. The fact is Pakistan is anti Hindu. That is a fundamental realization that had somehow escaped my typing fingers. As I wrote in my article on SRR ( http://www.adl.gatech.edu/research/brms ... 010803.pdf ), as a Hindu majority country and as the home of 90% of Hindus in the world, India and Indian Hindus have constantly had to be on the defensive, on the back foot, and constantly trying to prove that Hindus are not anti-Muslim. This is Pakistan's biggest victory over India. It can still be reversed, but I believe one of the steps is to recognize that Pakistan is anti-Hindu and the accusations against Hindus by Pakistan is exactly what created Pakistan. fter all you can have islamophobia and anti semitism. but how come we Hindus have not yet coined a good usable term for being anti-Hindu? Maybe Hindu-phobia?

Incidentally I would appreciate forum help in collecting up every single anti Hindu statement and article and video from Pakistan to build up a database.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 04 Feb 2010 15:27

Another image

Mahdi Hamid now has body guards complete with SS type arm bands and pious knee covering salwar kameez (lack of shades was a disappointment but i guess i we can wait).

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Feb 2010 16:24

Pakistan demands that nothing short of a composite dialogue will do

I am sure India will concede that too. Sharm-el-Sheikh was just the latest in a series of capitulations by the dhimmis to demands, threats and violence from the mard for a long time now.

Pakistan will not be interested in “talks for the sake of talks,” Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit told the Dawn newspaper.

“We want result-oriented and sustained dialogue and no format of engagement other than composite dialogue will be acceptable to us,” he said.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 04 Feb 2010 16:26

Not again!

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/india_pr ... ources.php

India proposes talks with Pakistan: Sources
NDTV Correspondent, Thursday February 4, 2010, New Delhi

According to sources, India has formally proposed Foreign Secretary level talks with Pakistan. India is now believed to be going in for talks with a positive and an open mind.

All relevant issues including counter terrorism and other issues that could create an atmosphere of peace and stability between the two countries will be discussed by India.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Feb 2010 16:51

chetak wrote:
According to sources, India has formally proposed Foreign Secretary level talks with Pakistan. India is now believed to be going in for talks with a positive and an open mind.

All relevant issues including counter terrorism and other issues that could create an atmosphere of peace and stability between the two countries will be discussed by India.

This time, it will be worse than S-e-S.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Feb 2010 17:04

Muppalla-> I disagree, Talks with PAk has very little to with IM's. Many of them are against PAK. It is for adhereing to UNcle and Western power plans.

Well, there were no talks, no real terror attacks. Now we will talks, have terror attacks and we will have somthing to call off.

So Pakis can be back to thier game. Guys get ready for next round, just hope anyone including me whom I know does not get affected by the next round of terror attacks.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 04 Feb 2010 17:37

Pakistan dismayed at Aafia's verdict

“We are dismayed over the unexpected verdict of the jury in Dr. Aafia Siddiqui’s case,” Pakistan’s embassy in Washington said in a statement.

“The government of Pakistan made intense diplomatic and legal efforts on her behalf and will consult the family of Dr. Aafia Siddiqui and the team of defense lawyers to determine the future course of action,” it said.

“The government will do all that is needed to provide justice to her as a Pakistani citizen,” it said.

A family lawyer has already announced an appeal, citing “prejudice and bias” against Siddiqui.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 04 Feb 2010 17:45

Karachi on simmer: Political solution

As we have said countless times before, Karachi must be cleansed of the scourge of deadly weapons that are readily available, if peace is to be given a chance. Giving the Rangers sweeping powers is a very short-term solution. Bringing in the army is even less advisable. The politicians need to come forward.

they say karachi is microcosm of pakistan. now kindly go beyond karachi & sindh and extrapolate about what needs to be done in the greater area based on exactly this logic.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 04 Feb 2010 18:12

SSridhar Sir,

I have to back to one of your earlier posts : the new $3B aid to Pakistan and how despite knowing fully well that both American and Indian interests are harmed, the US continues to fund TSP.
I then got reminded of BBC program about the US-UK relationship. In one of those, Michael Heseltine, a British MP, mentioned that during the troubled times in N.Ireland, the US did little to stop the flow of funds from America. Despite the special relationship, and despite knowing that equipment like guns were being shipped to Ireland , the US did not stop that from happening. It was a talk show and the audience gave a full minutes applause when the MP said this.

This still falls short of overt aid to Pak but it just goes to show how far the US will go for its personal interests.
The reason I would like to bring this up is to (hopefully) alter any perception that it is only India that is being dealt with like this by the US.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 04 Feb 2010 18:43

javed naqwi's eulogy to howard zinn may be found here.

Lets keep the generic

and the aura and ghost of zinn and america aside. (although one has to think about the cunning of a man who tries to equate american civil society with pakistani one, not in terms of what their elites do, but in terms of oppurtunities available to common people. perhaps JN seeks do a rashid, and bag some fellowhips on the otherside of the mississippi, since the evil banias are conspiring to dry up both sides of the sindhu.)

lets just focus on the lines JN tactfully employs hoping to strike pay dirt - India,Pakistan ==. (lets not kid ourselves, nobody in TSP, which is where most of dawn is read, cares for either howard zinn or his ideas.)

Zinn stands out since much of modern historiography is crawling with feckless nationalism. Yes, the infusion of commonplace loyalties in a tract about the past is not always deliberately arrived at for it often flows from subtle conditioning. Just as you wouldn’t read Abul Fazal for a critical account of Emperor Akbar’s exploits, it would be a rare Indian or a Pakistani who questions tired axioms rooted in nationalist loyalties, and which pass for a glimpse of our past. (==)

That’s how in the subcontinent we are kept glued to Jinnah, Gandhi and Nehru as though nothing else mattered. (more ==)

What were the amazingly diverse people, the angry, happy, fighting, romantically idyllic communities of the subcontinent doing before they came on the scene to conjure freedom from colonialism? And was freedom from colonialism everything? What about the slavery that followed or preceded it? (gee, thanks, without you i wonder what panchayati elections in my little neck of the woods be fought on, that too women)

The subaltern groups of a few researchers have embarked on a Zinn-like journey of unbridled inquiry into India’s past. Otherwise, apart from a grudging allowance sometimes made to include the more radical Bhagat Singh and, of late, Ambedkar, there is not too much that puts the complex impersonal dynamic of the subcontinent in the popular historical frame. (this is where JN cannot do == anymore, and sort of underscores the point, nay, the huge chasm, that separates the practically(tangibly) pure banias from the theoretically(intangibly) pure pakjabi bubblis. there is no equivalent of an ambedkar in the bubbly land. not even JN can recall such a persona.)

ok. so fine here in india were are making concessions to Bhagat Singh and Ambedkar(kindly note sir, we all understand what you mean by "Ambedkar", and this nurturing of the Ambedkar persona has not happened overnight, this has been carefully zealously nurtured, with lot of introspection, self doubt and sacrifice. Point is in the entire history of pakistan, there is not even a single equivalent of neither ambedkar the person, nor to indian response, either as a state or a people, to a persona like Ambedkar's. Something to chew on, perhaps?

i'm a poor writer. perhaps somebody here at brf can take this point and elaborate as a response to that article.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 04 Feb 2010 18:49

SSridhar wrote:
chetak wrote:
According to sources, India has formally proposed Foreign Secretary level talks with Pakistan. India is now believed to be going in for talks with a positive and an open mind.

All relevant issues including counter terrorism and other issues that could create an atmosphere of peace and stability between the two countries will be discussed by India.
This time, it will be worse than S-e-S.

Very true saar.

Higher echelons are moving in.

The piles must be itching something fierce.

Just a short while ago we had the usual rhetoric from SMK.

And today ........... this.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 04 Feb 2010 19:13

As some one mentioned earlier, 'talks' are used as pressure valve by all parties involved in this game. TSP, GOI & Unkil.

1) Cancelling talks with TSP, after every major terrorist attack, is touted as a huge strategic response by GOI which allows it to continue Chankian inaction until some wkk chaman ki tamasha kicks in. Then talks with TSP can be restarted, claiming gandhigiri and moral high ground, which puts the safety valve in place again until next attack.

2)Getting talks back on track, after the initial Indian official dramabazi after every major attack, is the final step of equal-equal and considered a huge victory which absolves it of all crimes by TSP. This is apart from the brownie points earned by playing the victim of derailed piss process.

3)Pretending to maintain an equal distance all the while encouraging to do talks is the 'kaam chalau' plan in the region for unkil. Gubo bitch munna is kept firmly on the leash and allowed to have occational bites at India. Everything can be managed by appealing for resumption of 'dialogue'.

Everyone involved benefits from this 'talk' thingy. Only mango jingos on the street, and on the net, are left wondering what the phuck is so important about continuing or not continuing talks with TSP since it amounts to zilch,zero,nada results at the end of the day.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 04 Feb 2010 19:15

Lovely explanation of a confusing situation, Dilbullah.
Apt.

Ananya · Post by **Ananya** » 04 Feb 2010 19:25

SSridhar wrote:Pakistan demands that nothing short of a composite dialogue will do

I am sure India will concede that too. Sharm-el-Sheikh was just the latest in a series of capitulations by the dhimmis to demands, threats and violence from the mard for a long time now.

Pakistan will not be interested in “talks for the sake of talks,” Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit told the Dawn newspaper.

“We want result-oriented and sustained dialogue and no format of engagement other than composite dialogue will be acceptable to us,” he said.

This is purely because . TSP managed to strike a deal with Unkil and ISAF. i.e if you want support make India talk and i trust they have been assured of the same , India knows this too and trying a diplomatic way out , Kirshna does not know how to handle this and is mumbling about. That is why FM is on to all sorts of things and tamasha .

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Feb 2010 19:30

Again,Pakistan is playing a huge game and yet again we are not seeing it. Just before, Yekaterinburg meeting, Pakistan 'appealed' in their Supreme Court against the release of Prof. Hafeez Saeed by the Lahore High Court. That gladdened our hearts. We felt it was a positive move. Then, just before the SeS meeting, Prof. Hafeez Saeed was re-arrested by Pakistan. We felt glad yet again. Gilani saheb even presented PML-N parliamentarians at SeS to our PM to prove that all were on board in Pakistan's terror policy. We were taken in sufficiently to have signed the most damning joint statement ever signed by the GoI. Pakistan uses that joint statement to justify everything, from its military's only focus with India to why India should not exercise any influence at all in Afghanistan. The Pakistanis presented their dossier to us and we proclaimed that Pakistan has 'accepted' that the whole 26/11 was plotted on Pakistani soil. That swelled our hearts with a sense of achievement and we indulge to this day on massive self-congratulation for that. Then, the Pakistani government charge-sheets the 'Gang of Seven' at Adiala and includes the confessions of Kasab (since retracted by him) in a Bombay Court as a proof. That was enough for us to completely forget everything and go back to the 'composite dialogue binge'.

Now, the Court has not yet ruled that Kasab's statement is worthy of being accepted as evidence. The defence lawyers have strongly rejected Kasab's confession as any proof at all. They will take it all the way to the SCP. The Adiala trial has just started and there are many legal hurdles there. When the LHC & the SCP asked specifically why Prof. Hafeez Saeed should be arrested based on a UN Resolution when India never bothered to implement the UN resolution on Kashmir, and then released him, the judges were drawing a quid-pro-quo and indicated clearly where their sympathies lay. Theirs was not based on solid legal arguments but on emotions (and wrong ones at that). The whole ATC trial at Adiala is a farce and is calibrated and finely controlled by the GoP.

Even God cannot save our country at this rate. Take it FWIW.

Ananya · Post by **Ananya** » 04 Feb 2010 19:33

to top it all just read in TOI that there is full fleged JUD sponsered convention in POK and we are sucking lolipops

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 04 Feb 2010 19:35

SSridhar,

Well said, but this time around, can you not see that the hidden powers within the Congress high command have silenced any dissenters, including P.Chidambaram?

The statements of Mr. Krishna and others indicate that GoI is ready to go ahead with "talks" even if TSP can stop Hafiz Saeed's car for 10 seconds at a traffic stop.

Pathetic!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 04 Feb 2010 19:43

Ananya wrote:to top it all just read in TOI that there is full fleged JUD sponsered convention in POK and we are sucking lolipops

Yes sir, and our favorite and welcomed DDM Indian TV channel guest hamid gul will also be attending.

A pox on all their houses.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Feb 2010 20:11

Rangudu wrote: . . . but this time around, can you not see that the hidden powers within the Congress high command have silenced any dissenters, including P.Chidambaram?

The statements of Mr. Krishna and others indicate that GoI is ready to go ahead with "talks" even if TSP can stop Hafiz Saeed's car for 10 seconds at a traffic stop.

Pathetic!

Rangudu, of course, yes. There is a massive perfidy being inflicted on the Indians and many Indians are partnering in this. Aman ki Asha, debates in NDTV, ToI etc. are being used to engineer a facade. We know who is paying for all this. Adm Mullen has just hinted at who is doing all this. While ToI is going vigorously forward on the Aman programmes, its partner in Pakistan is just very low key to the point of being even silent. After all, it is Pakistan which needs social engineering but the powers-that-be are doing the reverse because they know that we are the softest power in the whole world. Even Maldives behaves with a fierce determination. Obviously, we are expected to concede, a demand that Pakistan has unfailingly made ever since it was formed, a demand that India has also met unfailingly since then.

I am appalled until I find an explanation that gives a Chanakyan twist to GoI's approach, at which time I will be only more appalled.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 04 Feb 2010 20:15

X-posting

NDTV reports about possible Inidan offer for talks with a "open and positive" mind - with TSP. There is of course going to be some pussyfooting and hedging about nomenclature - after the furore over the SeS exposure. So it may not be called "composite dialogue". But insisting on "open and positive" and not being restricted by "single issues" is a pointer to how the political reaction is sought to be bypassed by the GOI and it is really a reincarnation of the "composite dialogue".

Why is Pakistan so insistent on resumption of dialogue? Because if the "dialogue" process starts, Pakistan has everything to gain and India everything to lose. For Pakistan has nothing left to concede - and the only party in this dialogue who has anything to give is India.

What are the advantages and motivations for Pakistan in resumption of the dialogue?

(a) The issue of terror strikes inside India and maintaining and fostering anti-India terror networks with help from Pakistani security forces within Pakistan gets submerged and a non-issue of other issues can be raised to equal importance.

(b) They manage to convince the international community that even India does not acknowledge the terror issue to be that "important", and therefore most of the noises made by India about this in the past were at best "political" scores. By extension, if India as a neighbour does not associate TSP with terror - the world should also not do so.

(c) They manage to reduce the TSP based terror issue from a global to a "bilateral concern" only between India and Pakistan.

(d) Pakistan has nothing to give since it is a "victim" of "terror". Therefore for "progress" and the sake of "peace and stability", it will be India who can be milked at will. These will contain a whole lot of concessions as demanded (not necessarily conceded but if India doesn't concede - Pakistan still wins diplomatically and politically) and perhaps includes greater access and control over J&K by Pakistan directly or indirectly through separatists (and autonomists).

(e) By bringing forward the "dialogue" TSP also can possibly cover up an accelerating preparation or plan for expanding jihad in AFPAK and into India.

Its increasing intensity of demand for dialogue could very well point to an internal pressure to stick to timelines for attacks. They have more or less secured the "western front" now, with well disguised and staged withdrawal from the AFPAK theatre by USA, and possible secret negotiations and agreements by the current Afghan regime to share power with Pakistan controlled Taleban. This completes an important step in their neo-caliphate plans, Now they need to deceive their "enemies" in the east. In core Islamic doctrine - "war is deception and deception is war". Pakistanis have gone almost the copybook way in which early Islamic wars under the founders were mounted as described in their "shahi" accounts. And they consistently employed prior gestures of apparent "peace treaties" and "non-aggression pacts" to divide up tribes within ethnic groups so that they could take out the smaller groups one after another. From the Islamic doctrinal viewpoint - their revelations support the betrayal of such "pacts" by Muslims as and when convenient and with the maximum possible lement of surprise.

GOI is heading for a trap here. The tragedy is that its leaders will never have to pay the price -just as in India;s past - rulers who welcomed/protected/made pacts and treaties of friendship with/allowed Islamics to penetrate/flourish even in their neighbourhood. The price is almost always paid by subsequent generations.

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 04 Feb 2010 20:44

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... ion=justin

Pakistan's foreign ministry confirmed that India had proposed foreign secretary-level talks with Islamabad, but said it was seeking clarification of the content of the talks.

"They have proposed foreign secretary-level talks and we have sought clarification on the contents of the proposed talks. We are awaiting response from India," foreign ministry spokesman Abdul Basit said.

The Pakistani spin is that they are in the drivers seat and asking India (the seeker) to provide clarification on what India would like to talk about. PC and Krishna gave that opening to Paki-land by being ambiguous to begin with. Now Pakistan (beggars until yesterday) demands results oriented talks ... because PC did not set the tone earlier by being vague and incomplete.

I would rather be a North Korea with robots reading out prepared statements (well SeS put a nail in that) any day rather than a SMK/PC shooting off .... and putting India in the defensive again.

Ananya · Post by **Ananya** » 04 Feb 2010 20:54

Krishna should retire and go home , why does he want all this when his is days away from salvation.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Feb 2010 21:06

TSP begs for talks, India offers them, and now TSP makes more demands; not to mention the terrorist rally in POK. How does one explain this choreography. One thing implict in this whole tamasha: TSP is not going to touch LeT until they get something massive from India on J&K for a start that is. But then again with LeT, is there anything left of TSP?

hasmukh · Post by **hasmukh** » 04 Feb 2010 21:08

Here is Indian Muslim asking India to help Pakistan in every way

http://dailypioneer.com/233447/India-mu ... istan.html

With citizens like these who needs enemies , anyways paki population will be tripled in next 50 years when most of the present wimps that rule us will be gone , expect bharat to shed more territory starting with Kashmir, Muslim Pardesh (neighbouring Nepal with epicenter in azamgarh , johnpur etc) and North east . US of A is riding under massive debt running into unpayable Trillions and will sell Taiwan and India to China for Debt Waive off . I hope I will be 100 per cent wrong.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Feb 2010 21:10

India to have Foreign-Secretary Level Talks with Pak

India on Thursday proposed Foreign Secretary-level talks with Pakistan to discuss terrorism and any other issue that could lead to peace between the two neighbours.

Sources said that the talks offer has been made to Pakistan and a reply is awaited.

At the talks, the sources said, India intends to raise the issue of terrorism and any other matter that could “contribute to creating an atmosphere of peace and security” between the two countries. India will “enter into the discussions with an open and positive mind” and will raise all “relevant issues,” they said.