Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[Rahul M]

DM, the Col. is indeed right. what he is expressing here is simply the fear that some 'gaming the system' methodology might be resorted to by influential top brass to skew the results. it is a very legitimate fear, given how the T-90 problems have been hushed up. perhaps you also remember the sabotage incident ?
and I'm not basing these statements solely on his articles either.

[Prem Kumar]

After paragraphs and paragraphs of blowing holes in T-90's defence, he sort of admits defeat.

no sir ji, he is merely saying that the army can organize 15 smoothly running T-90's with all the gizmos for the duel. the real state of the fleet is quite something else.
T-90's serviceability and performance (I'm not even talking of the production) has been notorious. all this has been hushed up.

In addition to what Rahul M says, the reason I believe Ajai Shukla says that the "the T-90s’ drawbacks will not be evident" is because of the following:

a) Invar missile doesnt work: missile firing doesnt seem to be part of the evaluation anyway

b) Indian ammo doesnt work: for the 15 T-90s, Russian ammo will be used

c) Shtora anti-missile system: not part of the evaluation

d) Effectiveness of armor: the tanks will not fire at each other. So, I cant see how this will be part of the trial either

e) Costs: not part of the trial

f) TI systems: this is the one area where things will get interesting. How is the IA going to ensure that the Catherine doesnt have a PMS I dont think the AC system is installed yet. Maybe one of the reasons the trials are in March instead of June

g) Finally, as Ajai Shukla mentioned in his first article, the IA has categorically said that the "T-90 is not on trial". So, any failings by the T-90 might go unreported

[RayC]

One should read carefully Ajai Shukla's blog:

Tuesday, 2 February 2010
Duel in the desert: Comparative trials in March to feature Russian T-90 vs Indian Arjun

Duel

I don't know the economics, but the T 72 should be replaced with Arjun since it is a more modern platform.

But there is also concern about the subjectivity of trials involving an entire squadron in tactical maneouvres. Major General HM Singh (retired), the father of the Arjun, says, “It is impossible to measure the tactical performance of 14 tanks. There are too many variables, including the skill of the tank crews and coloured perceptions of the judges. A comparative trial should be a scientific comparison of each tanks’ physical performance in identical situations.”

I leave it to others to comment on whether the skill of the Arjun team and the skill of the T 90 team is a valid point as no person is the same as the another. Nor that there can be test bed condition. However, he being the 'father' of the Arjun, he surely would be attached to it and one cannot deny him this fondness.

All equipment bought by the armed forces are tested in operational conditions and not test bed conditions. There are User Trials and their is the Technical trials. Both criteria has to be met.

I am sure Arjun will meet the bill. I don't think anyone would like the Arjun to fail. We must not sniff conspiracy in every nook or cranny. How come the 105 IFG or the Gurdial gun won kudos? 105 met its demise because the powercuts in the country wrecked up the autofrettage leading to barel bursting! How did the INSAS come into being and now being debunked, not by the Army, but by concerned citizens who are being swayed by US political military industrial nexus that is debunking the 5.56 technology that they so wildly advocated at one time?

No, those in the IA are as proud to be Indians as the common man Jack. More so, since it is they who would die for the common man Jack!

It is the right of all citizens to be watchdogs and that surely is appreciated, but to sniff conspiracies worming itself from the woodwork is doing disservice to those who are giving their lives for the safety of the nation. They also are not fool to die because someone has blundered!

T 90 may not be on trial, but if it turns out to be a lemon compared to the Arjun, those evaluating will not be blind. The Generals would be eyeing the next rank and if there is a war, then they are dead ducks. The juniors would surely be worried to be in a lemon in the next war.

If Ajai has changed tack after his spat here on the BRF, then surely it means that the Arjun has got rid of all the glitches and a good tank. A good tank will always be a good tank and no matter what is the previous impression (as seen with the tank), it will have to change. Therefore, if Arjun has met the bill, only a cretin will say it is a lemon!

[Dmurphy]

RM, while the Col. might be right about the possibility of skewing up results, such fears hold little value after he's getting what he asked for in the first place. Why did he call for the comparative trails in the first place then?

I think what the Col is trying to do here is prod the Arjun's sales and garner support for indigenous products and I'm on board with this. But I'm not sure if this is the right approach.

What he is effectively doing here is painting a sorry image of the T-90s and hoping the MOD turns to Arjun in despair - something that seems a long shot after 1800+ T-90s have been ordered.

He should instead highlight the advantages of having Arjun in our ranks rather than pushing down products which have already been bought. He's done that on his blog before. While he'll garner a lot of sympathy votes from swadesis, he'll end up antagonising the decision makers....who after all matter the most! Sadly so.

[Prem Kumar]

RayC Sir - agree with your sentiments regarding the IA. But the complaints are against the IA top-brass (example: DGMF) and the MOD, not the tank commanders/crew. The concern is that the honest work of many can be undone by the bigotry of a few.

[RayC]

It would be interesting to note that we have no complaints about the Naval ships or the Missiles? Why? They are world class and there are no reasons to grouse.

The MOD and the men in uniform are of the same stock, ethos, upbringing and psyche.

[chetak]

RayC Sir - agree with your sentiments regarding the IA. But the complaints are against the IA top-brass (example: DGMF) and the MOD, not the tank commanders/crew. The concern is that the honest work of many can be undone by the bigotry of a few.

Not to start a flame war but the problem may well be with the DRDO
and how it is perceived.

From being a well known purveyor of lemons, it would certainly take a great leap of faith to imagine that they have suddenly come good, especially given all the controversies that have been generated.

Many permanently seconded Armed forces officers in the DRDO often take up the DRDO cause with a missionary zeal. This attitude is not always justified or even appreciated.

Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight.

I simply wish the very best for the Armed Forces.

[RayC]

RayC Sir - agree with your sentiments regarding the IA. But the complaints are against the IA top-brass (example: DGMF) and the MOD, not the tank commanders/crew. The concern is that the honest work of many can be undone by the bigotry of a few.

I am not being sentimental at all.

I am using this board to mention that while all may not be well, to feel everyone is a crook is taking it too far.

A poor equipment is at the cost of my life. Is my life that cheap? Yes, for the nation I was ready to die, but if the GOI gave me a 'katta' (country made gun available in Bihar and UP) instead of an INSAS, would I accept it? Therefore, to feel that there is only corruption is totally unfair.

In defence deals, there is BIG money. It is those whose lives are not at stake who are the greatest benefiters. These deals, apart from kickbacks, are also for political considerations as I explained earlier. The Price Negotiating Committee is a bureaucrat minister organisation. They are the final word. Why do you think that the upgrading of the IAF is in a limbo? If there is a war today, do you think the IAF will be comfortable? Their lives and reputation is at stake and inspite of all the scams, the country still thinks that the armed forces are good or at least better than many!

In Kargil, if we lost, would we have the respect of the Nation? People complain that many died. I thank them. But our ethos is - we fight with what we have and our Nation comes first. Bodybags hurt, but then that is a part of life. We joined understanding the same (no one coerced us) and the Nation pays us for it! If we were lilly livered, we should not have joined. Yet, we expect the best of equipment. Our Trial teams drawn from our ranks, would be damned to accept substandard stuff.

I am sure the brass of the Army would not let us down. They may compromise, but not accept total lemons.

[RayC]

RayC Sir - agree with your sentiments regarding the IA. But the complaints are against the IA top-brass (example: DGMF) and the MOD, not the tank commanders/crew. The concern is that the honest work of many can be undone by the bigotry of a few.

Not to start a flame war but the problem may well be with the DRDO
and how it is perceived.

From being a well known purveyor of lemons, it would certainly take a great leap of faith to imagine that they have suddenly come good, especially given all the controversies that have been generated.

Many permanently seconded Armed forces officers in the DRDO often take up the DRDO cause with a missionary zeal. This attitude is not always justified or even appreciated.

Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight.

I simply wish the very best for the Armed Forces.

I think Chetak has said it most succinctly.

I too wish the Armed Forces and even the DRDO, the best.

India has to triumph!

[Prem Kumar]

This whole trial exercise is interesting. In his first blog, Ajai Shukla says the following:

The declared aim of the comparative trial, surprisingly, is not to identify the better tank. The army claims the T-90 is not on trial; instead, the strengths and weaknesses of the Arjun are being evaluated, to help the army decide what operational role the Arjun could play, and which sector of the border it could effectively operate in.

But the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) --- which has developed the Arjun tank at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE) at Chennai --- insists that if the Arjun performs well against the vaunted T-90, the army will be forced to order the Indian tank in larger numbers. Arjuns could start replacing the T-72, while the T-90 remains in service for another three decades.

So, the IA and CVRDE seem to have different ideas behind the purpose & the outcome of these trials.

Dmurphy: technically speaking, Ajai Shukla/DRDO are not getting what they asked for. In a true "comparative trial", both tanks would be on trial, the QRs would be laid out up-front (as RayC mentions) and results published. That doesnt seem to be the case here. CVRDE seems to be hoping against hope that the Arjun would excel in these trails and hence they can push the case for the T-72 replacement.

There is one area where this 15-tank scenario will play to Arjun's advantage - BMS. The Arjun has one, while the T-90 doesnt. The Arjun, as a pack, will be more effective hunters than the T-90s. However, whether the crew is trained in the tactics of using BMS or whether this can be used during the trials is an open question.

[RayC]

I will just say that if there is a war tomorrow, would we like a void or go gung ho with what we have and hope for a better tomorrow with better tanks?

Tank technology is a continuous evolution as is all technology.

We have to be ready today and not pussyfoot for tomorrow. We cannot fail the country on hopes for the future.

How long will it take to replace T 72s given the production? I don't know. Those who are in the know, could illuminate us!

That is the million dollar issue!

BTW, why is the MiG 21 not being sent to the junkyard? Coffins.

It would be naive to believe the IAF does not want a change.

Why all these trials and no decisions.

[chetak]

It would be interesting to note that we have no complaints about the Naval ships or the Missiles? Why? They are world class and there are no reasons to grouse.

The MOD and the men in uniform are of the same stock, ethos, upbringing and psyche.

Unlike many others, the Navy has its very hands firmly on the steering wheel. Project control is very rarely ceded.

Onsite Naval project managers, in every case, also keep NHQ directly informed about the correct ground situation despite severe opposition from the "bayz" concerned.

You actually have to attend some Navy chaired progress review meetings with other agencies to see how ruthless the Admirals can be. The "bayz" gingerly walk out with delicate mincing steps after such meetings, being painfully on the receiving end of some "insights".

The vice of the Vice Admiral being the rear of the Rear Admiral is no Naval fairy tale.

Frequently, "the particular auditory effect produced by a given cause" in these meetings is the violent sound of some "bayz" being torn a new one!!

After a few such unlubricated penetrative interactions, the concerned "bayz" quickly learn, ( nay, they actually clamor ) to deliver.

[Dmurphy]

Ajai Shukla/DRDO are not getting what they asked for. In a true "comparative trial", both tanks would be on trial

Again, not to start a flame war here, but for arguement's sake, there was no Arjun in the early 2000s when the T-90s were ordered in such huge numbers. So why put the T-90s on trial now, against a much evolved tank? One can even argue that they both are not of the same class either, both built on different philosophies which the Col. himself mention on his blog before. And say by the end of 2012 you have a super fine Tejas, complete in all respects, would you want to hold comparative trails between Mirage and Tejas and put both of them on trial to push the case for Tejas' sales?

[RayC]

Chetak,

Give me another!

It is just that they are clear and brook no nonsense.

If you meet Sureesh, ask him.

[chetak]

Ajai Shukla/DRDO are not getting what they asked for. In a true "comparative trial", both tanks would be on trial

Again, not to start a flame war here, but for arguement's sake, there was no Arjun in the early 2000s when the T-90s were ordered in such huge numbers. So why put the T-90s on trial now, against a much evolved tank? One can even argue that they both are not of the same class either, both built on different philosophies which the Col. himself mention on his blog before. And say by the end of 2012 you have a super fine Tejas, complete in all respects, would you want to hold comparative trails between Mirage and Tejas and put both of them on trial to push the case for Tejas' sales?

Sirjee,

The design goals of the Tejas and the Mirage were different.

I agree that you have a valid point but the current situation and proposed solution is surely the making of the DRDO itself.

The design goals of the Arjun and the T 90 are roughly the same albeit shifted, by maybe a couple of generations.

[Prem Kumar]

Ajai Shukla/DRDO are not getting what they asked for. In a true "comparative trial", both tanks would be on trial

Again, not to start a flame war here, but for arguement's sake, there was no Arjun in the early 2000s when the T-90s were ordered in such huge numbers. So why put the T-90s on trial now, against a much evolved tank? One can even argue that they both are not of the same class either, both built on different philosophies which the Col. himself mention on his blog before. And say by the end of 2012 you have a super fine Tejas, complete in all respects, would you want to hold comparative trails between Mirage and Tejas and put both of them on trial to push the case for Tejas' sales?

Comparative trials between Arjun and T-90 is not a bad idea. If you want to raise another 20+ regiments for your IBGs (as Rohitvats mentions), which tank should you choose? So, the Arjun will play in 2 areas:

a) Replacement of the T-72s
b) Compete with T-90 for additional orders

By your statement that I have bolded & your subsequent analogy, do you mean that the T-90 will not be competitive against Arjun? If so, why are we ordering more T-90s? We should cap it at the current levels and fully ramp up Arjun production.

[RayC]

Design goals are same?

T 90 for Indian environment and Indian op scenarios?

[chetak]

Chetak,

Give me another!

It is just that they are clear and brook no nonsense.

If you meet Sureesh, ask him.

Humbly submitted saar,

I have personally attended such meetings, With Navy in chair and also with other services in chair. Percentage wise, the snake oil salesmen were far more successful with other services as the onsite representation from the others was much less and " humint " was consequently lesser.

The result is only delay or dispute over QRs which goes back to more delays.

Sureesh in new zealand saar, very little chance of us meeting.

[chetak]

Design goals are same?

T 90 for Indian environment and Indian op scenarios?

As usual you have a valid point.

But the design of the Arjun did not even take rail transportability into consideration no? Granted that they now have a jugad solution but Indian environment and Indian op scenarios were also not fully covered by our own gurus too.

[Hitesh]

124 Arjun x 17.5 cr = 2170cr

2170cr / 14per/t90 = 155 T-90

29 more tanks for the same money spent

And you do realize that in due course that price/tank for Arjun will come down when more tech. is produced locally and economies of scale kick in? And even today, with X% of the content being local, that X% goes into local economy?

Like I said, it is not just buying the tanks. You also have to purchase the logistics chain that comes with the Arjun tanks and the Arjun tanks are different beasts from the T-series so the logistic chains existing for the T-series are not compatible with the Arjun tanks. As I said before, as long as the GoI pony up the money to purchase the required logistics chain for the Arjun series tank, the IA will have no problem purchasing Arjun tanks in large number. Remember the cost of the logistic chain can be more than the total sum of the Arjun tanks themselves. So given that mindset and the notorious cheapness, shortsightness and tightfisted the MoD officials & beancounters are, I am not holding my breath that the GoI would release the necessary money to build the required logistic chains to induct Arjun tanks in large numbers. Hence the IA only went in for small numbers of Arjuns because it would not break their budget to support the 124 Arjun tanks but any more, it would put severe strain on the overall budget of IA and put a crimp on a lot of other important projects.

[RayC]

Design goals are same?

T 90 for Indian environment and Indian op scenarios?

As usual you have a valid point.

But the design of the Arjun did not even take rail transportability into consideration no? Granted that they now have a jugad solution but Indian environment and Indian op scenarios were also not fully covered by our own gurus too.

You are right.

Nor the Bridge classification!

We are day dreamers!

Power without a thought of reality!

It is so evident here!

[Dmurphy]

By your statement that I have bolded & your subsequent analogy, do you mean that the T-90 will not be competitive against Arjun?

Ideally speaking, yeah! Heavier class, better armour etc.

If so, why are we ordering more T-90s?

I'll blame it on the DGMF's ever changing requirements. IIRC, an Army top gun was quoted as saying something like "We are not against Arjun, we just feel the T-90s we have/have ordered will do the job for us"

We should cap it at the current levels and fully ramp up Arjun production.

With guys like Shukla vouching for Arjun in its current form, I'm all on board with it. At the same time, keep improving on Arjun and iron out the flaws that might still exist.

[rohitvats]

...........<SNIP>.....

Like I said, it is not just buying the tanks. You also have to purchase the logistics chain that comes with the Arjun tanks and the Arjun tanks are different beasts from the T-series so the logistic chains existing for the T-series are not compatible with the Arjun tanks. As I said before, as long as the GoI pony up the money to purchase the required logistics chain for the Arjun series tank, the IA will have no problem purchasing Arjun tanks in large number. Remember the cost of the logistic chain can be more than the total sum of the Arjun tanks themselves. So given that mindset and the notorious cheapness, shortsightness and tightfisted the MoD officials & beancounters are, I am not holding my breath that the GoI would release the necessary money to build the required logistic chains to induct Arjun tanks in large numbers. Hence the IA only went in for small numbers of Arjuns because it would not break their budget to support the 124 Arjun tanks but any more, it would put severe strain on the overall budget of IA and put a crimp on a lot of other important projects.

I had actually answered the logistics part on page 15 of this thread when you first raised the bogey of logistics.One word answer:GSQR drafted by IA. Arjun looks and feels and weighs as such because of the requirements of IA.Surely,IA did think of logistics thenThere is a link to the evolution of GSQR on previous page. Please go through it.

Again, my dear good sir, you're tilting at the windmills. Can you please show me one piece of news article/statement by the IA that it is the logistic cost that is dithering the acceptance of the Arjun? and for Armed Forces that return a chunk of their capex budget due to non usage(lot many times due to reasons beyond their control), don't you think the argument about funds in todays day and age a bit stretched? Is it really about the cost or the mindset?

Reminds me of the argument I very frequently hear on the MRCA thread: MIG-35 because we have Mig-29X?

PS: I'm still awaiting answer to your assertion that IA "as it is needs only few Arjuns".Please educate.

[Aditya_V]

Piercing the army's armour of deception

http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=3603698
Repeating the Business standard article

The deception stemmed from the army's determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued -- allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production -- that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russia's army had spurned the T-90.

Is it true that Russia did not buy any T-90's?

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident -- and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan -- that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90's thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn't work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90's fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.
With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world's current tanks, other than France's LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India's Arjun tank, too, has "hardened" electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.

Any truth to these allegations, then why is the Army making Arjun jump through loops before induction?

"It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank," says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. "Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further."

I agree, rembering the Horses example, one of the clear reasons many Indian rulers defeat is the lack of complete Miltary Industrial complex. Unless we build one, we can never make independant decesions

[Yagnasri]

I also read the Rediff article and it is quite hard one on T 90. Gurus we have to examine if the statements made therein ture.

[d_berwal]

[

Piercing the army's armour of deception

http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=3603698
Repeating the Business standard article

The deception stemmed from the army's determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued -- allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production -- that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russia's army had spurned the T-90.

Is it true that Russia did not buy any T-90's?

Ans: Russia has 400-800 T-90 (past couple of yesra Russia is inducting 62 T-90 per year)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident -- and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan -- that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90's thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn't work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90's fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.
With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world's current tanks, other than France's LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India's Arjun tank, too, has "hardened" electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.

Any truth to these allegations, then why is the Army making Arjun jump through loops before induction?

Ans: Allegations,
- INVAR missile not functioning is a case of BDL manufacturing issues.

- Any new ammunitation fired before configuration of ballistic computer and callibration of Sight will be faulty (and that is what happened )

- The TI sight issue is blown out of proposition

- The environmental system for T-90 is part of MLU + Other systems are planned.

"It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank," says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. "Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further."

Chief belonging to a particular arm favours his arms traditionally. Arty was the fav topic of present chief, may be next one will favour SF, so others will loose priority.

[nachiket]

Any truth to these allegations, then why is the Army making Arjun jump through loops before induction?

Ans: Allegations,
- INVAR missile not functioning is a case of BDL manufacturing issues.

- Any new ammunitation fired before configuration of ballistic computer and callibration of Sight will be faulty (and that is what happened )

- The TI sight issue is blown out of proposition

- The environmental system for T-90 is part of MLU + Other systems are planned.

This still means that the T-90 was inducted into service with certain faults and limitations which were/are in the process of being sorted out. The issue is that the Arjun was never given this chance. The Army wanted it to be perfect from the word go. Being the first tank that our indigenous industry ever produced that could never be the case.

Perhaps the army was being extra cautious after having burned its fingers with the T-90. I don't know.

[Kanson]

RayC Sir - agree with your sentiments regarding the IA. But the complaints are against the IA top-brass (example: DGMF) and the MOD, not the tank commanders/crew. The concern is that the honest work of many can be undone by the bigotry of a few.

Not to start a flame war but the problem may well be with the DRDO
and how it is perceived.

You left out Natashas and other such things.

From being a well known purveyor of lemons, it would certainly take a great leap of faith to imagine that they have suddenly come good, especially given all the controversies that have been generated.

Thats becoz they are not involved in each and every step from the project inception.

Many permanently seconded Armed forces officers in the DRDO often take up the DRDO cause with a missionary zeal. This attitude is not always justified or even appreciated.
.

This probably answers the other statements. Problem is not always with DRDO as projected with certain vested interests. A very well example could be the Fording issue with Arjun tank.

[d_berwal]

Any truth to these allegations, then why is the Army making Arjun jump through loops before induction?

Ans: Allegations,
- INVAR missile not functioning is a case of BDL manufacturing issues.

- Any new ammunitation fired before configuration of ballistic computer and callibration of Sight will be faulty (and that is what happened )

- The TI sight issue is blown out of proposition

- The environmental system for T-90 is part of MLU + Other systems are planned.

This still means that the T-90 was inducted into service with certain faults and limitations which were/are in the process of being sorted out. The issue is that the Arjun was never given this chance. The Army wanted it to be perfect from the word go. Being the first tank that our indigenous industry ever produced that could never be the case.

Perhaps the army was being extra cautious after having burned its fingers with the T-90. I don't know.

we only started manufacturing these missile couple of years back but the one imported were totally functional, thats y u see soo many INVAR qualifed ppl... even the new would be chief is INVAR qualified.

Every equipment inducted has limitations.

What were the limitations of T-90 i dont know because never published by army... its only DDm reports from informed sourses without any name. There is no basis of such claims.

Some issues would have croped up which were resolved.

One cannot compare ARJUN induction to T-90, ARJUN induction is total different ball game. Since no higher up is pushing the case for ARJUN, its become a rather Induction.

The burnt finger case has to do more with DRDO/ AVDHI than T-90....

[Rahul M]

Chief belonging to a particular arm favours his arms traditionally. Arty was the fav topic of present chief, may be next one will favour SF, so others will loose priority.

what exactly does this mean ? if inducting arjuns = favouring armoured formations, you are effectively saying inducting T-90 != favouring armoured formations !

[d_berwal]

Chief belonging to a particular arm favours his arms traditionally. Arty was the fav topic of present chief, may be next one will favour SF, so others will loose priority.

what exactly does this mean ? if inducting arjuns = favouring armoured formations, you are effectively saying inducting T-90 != favouring armoured formations !

You got it so wrong

What i simply ment was : When T 90 was Trialed and passed there was no other choice, and the requirement was urgent, so the high priority and it was pushed in large numbers.
------------------

Last Armoured Corps COAS was General Shankar Roychowdhury, this is when new equipment was sanctioned for Armoured Crops (T-90), The actual deal might have been signed after his retirement though. He got it done because he understood the state of Armoured Crops

The ones after him didnt saw a need for pushing ARJUN'S cause because their priorities were different.

We have had 3 Infantry + 2 Arty COAS from then... the trend is visible.... push for New Helicopters for Air OP (which was under Arty earlier)... , new equipment for Infantry, New Guns for Arty, etc...

Now no COAS want's to push the cause of 500 ARJUN so we all debate the topic and wish we see 500 Arjuns Side by SIde 1000+ T-90 in IA.

Every one tends to favour their parent arms.

Point is The modernisation and Upgradation is based on 5yr Plas which get approved:

present five year plan: (2007-2012)

* Improvement in the Fire Power and increased Mobility (Arty Guns + UAV + New Vechiles for Mbility + Air Op Choppers)
* All Weather Battle Field Surveillance capability (UAV + Radars)
* Night Fighting capabilities (upgrade of TI sights) (thats why favour for T-72 upgrade than ARJUN because one have limited money sancioned under this and it is better utilised for upgarde than purchane of new equipment)
* Enhance capability of Special Forces (New equipment for SF)
* Capability for Network Centric Warfare (ACCS etc)
* NBC Protection (In general)

If the Twelth plan include inhancing Armoured formation capabililty may be ARJUN in large numbers can be pushed

May be the 13th plan we can hope for more ARJUN.

[ramana]

These spate of articles could be another piss process moves to delay re-equipment. Arjun gets stalled by IA and then the T90 will get stalled by journalists. Meantime honest RM will decimate the upper ranks and show them their place.

Why do we need a coup when we have our own Night of the Generals?

[Rahul M]

berwal sahab, when was the T-90 trialled and cleared ? I seem to remember it was during Gen Malik or Gen Padmanabhan's era. Gen RoyC is no fan of the T-90 AFAIK. the initial 310 was a panic buy in response to the 320 T-84 buy of TSPA. when the second and expanded deal was signed (around 2006 IIRC) for additional 300something + 1000 license production if memory serves right, the arjun was well on its way to iron out the kinks from what was after all a much more capable system than the T-90.

while the first 310 deal can be somewhat justified, there was absolutely no justification(other than plain inertia of thought) to go for the expanded deal for additional 1300 of the tin cans when a much better home-grown system was available. since then the army seems to be involved in a game of defending the indefensible. acknowledging that going for a large no of T-90 would be too much of a loss of prestige. the whole arjun/T-90 saga has become a victim of misplaced sense of losing face. H&D rather than hard-nosed military reasons have unfortunately become the determining factor. the picture is not pretty.

Every one tends to favour their parent arms.

going by the state of the artillery, by itself that doesn't count for much !

[d_berwal]

berwal sahab, when was the T-90 trialled and cleared ? I seem to remember it was during Gen Malik's era. Gen RoyC is no fan of the T-90 AFAIK. the initial 310 was a panic buy in response to the 320 T-84 buy of TSPA. when the second and expanded deal was signed (around 2006 IIRC) for additional 300something + 1000 license production if memory serves right, the arjun was well on its way to iron out the kinks from what was after all a much more capable system than the T-90.

while the first 310 deal can be somewhat justified, there was absolutely no justification(other than plain inertia of thought) to go for the expanded deal for additional 1300 of the tin cans when a much better home-grown system was available. since then the army seems to be involved in a game of defending the indefensible. acknowledging that going for a large no of T-90 would be too much of a loss of prestige. the whole arjun/T-90 saga has become a victim of misplaced sense of losing face. H&D rather than hard-nosed military reasons have unfortunately become the determining factor. the picture is not pretty.

Every one tends to favour their parent arms.

going by the state of the artillery, by itself that doesn't count for much !

Sir i said clearly...

"Last Armoured Corps COAS was General Shankar Roychowdhury, this is when new equipment was sanctioned for Armoured Crops (T-90), The actual deal might have been signed after his retirement though. He got it done because he understood the state of Armoured Crops"

The need and sanction was given under 10th plan so by the time 10th plan ended bigger deal had to be signed other wise we see the tamasha we are seeing for Arty gun purchase.

The state of Arty might be sad but their CAOS got the the numbers to be sanctioned in The plan so they have to be bought.

The first one got them the numbers but deal could not be signed due to our political sensetivity towards the OEM,,, the SECOND COAS actully have changed the number from the previous but the need was created in 11th plan and continued in 12th... so by 2012 we will see all arty deals signed. one is already almost done.

If you look from The planners point of view The home grown system is available under 12th plan.... the 12plan only has sanction for 124 systems(this is actully carried forward from 11th plan) so what can IA do.... Ask the MOD to alter the plan mid-way and add 500 ARJUN's that is how we will see more ARJUN.... we will not see more ARJUN's simply by pointing fingers at IA or any other.....

Sirrr, does our Rm have guts to change the Plan mid-way or the CAOS fight a case for change of plan mid-way..... if NOT --- fight a loosing battle and find a scapegoat for it all to blame. (IA is the easiest and the first scapegoat to put this blame on because they approved 7yrs bk 1000 T-90 purchase inder 10th plan)

[SaiK]

Spending billions on T72 rather Arjun and this news much before it is going for face-to-face trials with Arjun... there may be already this exercise mission drafted and completed for Arjun failure in the minds of our Generals.

DRDO came out with Tank-Ex.. why not talk about it rather? and why compare Arjun with T72 issues.

[Rajput]

Sir i said clearly...

"Last Armoured Corps COAS was General Shankar Roychowdhury, this is when new equipment was sanctioned for Armoured Crops (T-90), The actual deal might have been signed after his retirement though. He got it done because he understood the state of Armoured Crops"

I'm still not understanding your point. If SR approved of the T-90s, then why is he supporting the Arjun now?

In any case: it's frustrating to see the tug-of-war between the phoren-vs-desi camps. The biggest advantage of having Arjun is that we can build on the capability later and finally wean ourselves off the T-XX line. If production is an issue, hand over the controls to Tata or L&T.

[Bheem]

The natashas are also trying to prevent future development of indigeous Arjun Mark-2/3/4 etc by talking about and proposing JV of "future main battle tank".

[niran]

I'm still not understanding your point. If SR approved of the T-90s, then why is he supporting the Arjun now?

In any case: it's frustrating to see the tug-of-war between the phoren-vs-desi camps. The biggest advantage of having Arjun is that we can build on the capability later and finally wean ourselves off the T-XX line. If production is an issue, hand over the controls to Tata or L&T.

coz then Arjun was vaporware when T90 was first approved. yes production will be an issue, and no IVVVVHO handing over is not an option,
all issues will be resolved, Indian ishtyle, just keep the faith. this a civvie like moi can understand, why cannot you?

[Singha]

its a well oiled machinery. per a article in a leading mag last week
there are 100s of ladies from rus/CAR/baltic/ukraine practising a certain trade in delhi. I am sure some are kept on a payroll to 'ease' roadblocks to peace and progress.

small scale players like bofors and denel flail around and get
caught but the big boys like sher khan and bear sure know how
to leap for the jaguar vein...

[merlin]

I'm still not understanding your point. If SR approved of the T-90s, then why is he supporting the Arjun now?

In any case: it's frustrating to see the tug-of-war between the phoren-vs-desi camps. The biggest advantage of having Arjun is that we can build on the capability later and finally wean ourselves off the T-XX line. If production is an issue, hand over the controls to Tata or L&T.

coz then Arjun was vaporware when T90 was first approved. yes production will be an issue, and no IVVVVHO handing over is not an option,
all issues will be resolved, Indian ishtyle, just keep the faith. this a civvie like moi can understand, why cannot you?

So tell me when T90 was first approved (date) and was Arjun a program with atleast prototypes delivered and active development happening at that date. I hope you do know the definition of vaopurware.