Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

[negi]

Sanku saar the difference is in the 'RESPONSE' to stimuli , chanakian mindset responds to a boot in posterior by endless procrastination in the name of serious deliberation and 'buying time' eventually what follows is chai biskoot the explanation given can be anything viz 'we have the himalayas in between i.e. terrain not suitable for war' , 'We don't have it easy like Israel' , 'They have the nukes' , 'What will happen to the economy ?' , 'Unkil wont be happy' yada yada in all this what eventually happens is the guilty escapes scott free and with the passage of time people forget and forgive which is a welcome respite for this species . But at the end of the day people who are effected or get killed are forgotten in fact I would say considered expendable and all this posturing against a piddly rogue state .

Since all this while Chanakians have been taking too much liberty with their imagination and seeing things let me try my hand at this (hopefully my stuff is as strong as theirs) , based on the past events I can easily draw a conclusion that it is the inaction and failure to prosecute TSP in time which encouraged the elements within the TSP to carry out the 26/11 for in the past couple of decades they realized that terror in j&K was not doing as much dammage to India Inc. as the region has been quarantined an attack on Mumbai was pulled of bearing in mind the fact that 'Chanakians' won't pull the trigger .

[Varoon Shekhar]

"India is still in the old world where diplomats delivering well articulated speeches in impeccable english on the floor of UN is considered a credible 'response' to state sponsored terrorists.."

Dilbu, well said. No disrespect meant to the intelligence of Indian diplomats, but one sometimes wonders about their perspicacity, argumentative skills and ability to use effective brevity. They should make it clear that any country giving significant amounts of military aid to Pakistan bears a degree of criminal culpability for any terrorist attack against India, originating from Pakistani soil. Particularly when those weapons are actually in use against India. And the same goes for weapons used by their military in official wars as well.

Another point India should get across is that India as a country has never played a negative, harmful role in global politics, regardless of the hundred-and-one internal problems of the country. Propping up a Taliban or supporting a genocide as in the Pol Pot/Khmer Rouge is something India simply will not do.

[Dilbu]

Massive covert action which liquidates key terror cospirators inside TSP under their nose is the only response that is going to get through their thick puki skulls. An overt military action is not feasible because of zillion reasons listed on these pages. Why not fight fire with fire (retardant)?

[Rahul M]

OT alert.
a humble request to all. those who are unaware of what chanakya/kautilya says in arthashastra should do better than to heap scorn on it as some 'manual for procrastination'. it is anything but.
ill-informed jibes at that brilliant mind's analysis is unwarranted and a self goal. at the very least, read it first ! it will be time well spent.

[negi]

Rahul 'Chanakianism' here is what is practiced today and not what was is written in the book , pretty much on similar lines as the way constitution defines the term 'Secular' vs the way it is actually implemented and practiced by the Government. All in all a greater disservice is done by attributing GOI's stupidity to the great book.

[krithivas]

This is the "people-to-people" contact language that TSP will fully understand. Those who plan, think or act to inflict pain on India within Pakiland must not sleep well at night, and the rest of the day must be consumed with suspicion and insecurity whether as to the next passing car or bicycle or goat or light bulb or air conditioner will short cut their way to 72 houries. This is 400% percent better than open-minded-talks-to-defuse-Paki-hyperventillation.

Massive covert action which liquidates key terror cospirators inside TSP under their nose is the only response that is going to get through their thick puki skulls. An overt military action is not feasible because of zillion reasons listed on these pages. Why not fight fire with fire (retardant)?

[Rangudu]

I do not think that this new move by the GOI is a product of some grand strategy. It looks actions taken to please other powers and maybe is in consonance with the current dispensation's vision of India. Whatever it is, if walks like a duck, squacks like a duck then it is....., there is no point in us trying to see too much into something grander.

As usual, a cogent synthesis of analytical observations from Raja Ram-ji.

We all can only wait and hope that this march of folly led by muddled brains does not seriously postpone the inevitable on the TSP side.

[krithivas]

Pakistan Needs Its Own Nuclear Deal
Such a pact could finally offer the right set of carrots to ensure Islamabad's counterterror cooperation.

...That's where a civilian nuclear deal between the U.S. and Pakistan could prove so important. The U.S. is currently limited in its ability to shore up Pakistan's confidence against India because Islamabad fears that Washington, perhaps working with India or Israel, seeks to dismantle Pakistan's nuclear weapons program. Fundamentally, Pakistan believes the U.S. rejects its status as a nuclear-armed state, whereas Washington has accepted and even supported the other two states that have acquired nuclear weapons outside of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, Israel and India. With a civilian nuclear deal, Washington can trade the nuclear acceptance Pakistan craves for the cooperation the U.S. needs.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lenews_wsj

[Ananya]

Well they ( TSP) have realised how to milk the cow at the right time and Gandhi is fighting for his own survival. now the question is weather the next president will look at afg in the same prisim or not.

[pgbhat]

Dismantling LeT will end bakistan before a nuclear deal is signed. ....even if they "do" how would one verify? would India make the final call? ...something tells me it will not.

[krithivas]

India then must learn to trade the rewards (to the USA) of a non-preemptive strike on TSP land by India for something more tangible than peace (to India).

Indians are not bania-Hindus they are bloody idiots ....

[harbans]

Why Pakistan's Nuclear weapons program is invalid:

1. Pakistan has Officially proclaimed on many occasions that if India dismantles it's nuclear weapons, then it is ready to do so.

2. Pakistan also Officially proclaims it has Nuclear weapons to offset India's conventional weapons capability.

Both the statements are contradictory. They clearly show that even if India does dismantle, they'll keep some hidden.

[shravan]

Pak Army Brigadier killed in firing incident in Terah Valley

TERAH VALLEY: Pak Army Brigadier Hussain have been martyred in firing incident on military convoy in Terah valley, Khyber Agency on Wednesday.

Major Zia and Lieutenant Ansar injured in firing incident and have been taken to the nearby hospital.

The military convoy was going to the place of the gunship helicopter crash when it was targeted.

[shravan]

13 people killed in suicide attack in Jamrood

17 people killed in suicide attack in Jamrood

At least 17 people including 11 security personnel of Khasadar Force (militia) have been martyed

The official sources confirmed that Line Officer Zarmat Khan has also been martyred in the suicide attack.

[A_Gupta]

Pakistan is just one, and perhaps not even the most important, dimension of a multi-dimensional Indo-US relationship. You have to look at the entire picture and not just a Pakistan-centric view.

[RamaY]

Pakistan is just one, and perhaps not even the most important, dimension of a multi-dimensional Indo-US relationship. You have to look at the entire picture and not just a Pakistan-centric view.

Could be!

Imagine the value-add India would get in a TSP-less world.

[Rangudu]

BTW folks, one thing that was confusing me is who exactly within the Obama administration is encouraging the "we'll negotiate with Haqqani" type chutzpah from Kayani and co.

A couple of emails I sent many moons ago were coincidentally replied to last night, once the NY Times story was out.

What I gather is that it is the super genius Holbrooke and some anti-war lefties within the White House who are pursuing this silly approach. NATO and Western European weaklings are providing the "jaalra" - Tamil speakers should understand this.

The word is that Hillary Clinton and strangely Def Sec Robert Gates are dead against any talks with Haqqani. Gates should know because he met with the senior Haqqani during his CIA days. The military brass is supposedly pissed that this whole tamasha is happening even before the Helmand offensive and increased drone attacks on N.Waziristan are given time to show results.

The real issue here is that unlike George W. Bush, Obama changes his mind daily based on "ideas" and "arguments". Bush's faults led to the Iraq disaster for sure, but at least that guy had the cojones to take a stand and stick with it.

[CRamS]

Pakistan is just one, and perhaps not even the most important, dimension of a multi-dimensional Indo-US relationship. You have to look at the entire picture and not just a Pakistan-centric view.

With all due respect, this is horsemanure at best. I am not saying you are in the same boat, but this is what even the deluded "India is impending superpower" elites in India put out.

Let me succintly state it. Nothing is more important to India, nothing, nada, zilch, not the nuke deal, not slum dog oscars, not a SDRE like Shilpa Shetty getting a hot kiss from Hollywood honcho Richard Gere, not back office investment in Gurgoan and Bangalore by Intel and Google; none of these are worth a hill of beans if TSP is allowed to keep its terrorist infrastructure.

At the very least, India US relations will carry substance if US can use its leverage to force TSP to dismantly LeT irreversibly. If the denounement of this Afghan circus is a TSP armed to the teeth, LeT in full force, and TSP rules the roost in Afganisthan; it will be a few years hence when the Paki green crescent will fly over the red fort in New Delhi. And the only country that can prevent this, short of a bloodbath is USA, period, lets not kid ourselves.

[Pranav]

BTW folks, one thing that was confusing me is who exactly within the Obama administration is encouraging the "we'll negotiate with Haqqani" type chutzpah from Kayani and co.

Difficult to say, but a few months back, opposition to the McChrystal surge came from David Axelrod.

[Prem]

Harbans, good thinking in many ways except one. TSPA is not going to run out of funds. Not going to happen.

We dont have to kill each and every terrorist in Pakistan. About 20m Pakjabis in 6-7 districts of Pakjab converted to compost Khaad can relieve the whole world from terrorism problem. Added benefit of being used the product to grow organic vegatbles and fulfill the term with "tianu kaccha khaa jaunga". Seriously , after 2015, Indian annual growth will exceed whole Paki dekonomoney. But this should not mean that we should not fondle with Paki Musharraf till then. Another nightmare for Paquistan post 2015 will/can be Indian paying for 3-400k Afghan national army trying to regain their lost land from Pak . Once India build the capabiliy to regulate water flowing Westward, Paki3.5 friends have at minimum additional 20B plus yearly to keep their puttar breathing. Dehydrating Paquistan will be blow equal to many hajar blows. Sau sunnar ki= ik lohar ki.

[RamaY]

Prem-ji,

how can you be so inhuman? It is one thing to nuke pakjab in a war and another thing to dehydrate sindhu delta causing famine.

I recommend the first option. Why carrying bad karma onto our heads? By opting war we will be sending TSPA to veerswarg and it is Dharmic

[Theo_Fidel]

Does the IA/IAF/IN have the equipment at present for a knockout blow? Are they ready for a decisive war? Perhaps a subconventional response may be more appropriate?

No.

A decisive blow from our view would be the Separation of Sindh/Balochistan from the rest of the body. It is the access to Karachi that allows the Pakjabi state to pretend at great power status.

A response must not harm the Sindh/Baloch/Pakhtun areas. These areas not intrinsically hateful of India civilization.

[ramana]

Archan, Why you bringing Greek to the TSP thread. They already think they are sikander's progeny!

Because what you said was Greek to me. You leaned padha-likha people speak in codes which us unwashed abduls fail to comprehend at times.

Cassandra was the girl who saw doom and gloom in Homer's Illiad.
Pollyanna is the girl in American story who sees the rosy side of things. IOW she sees the rose but not the thorns.

My saying we need both is to say we need the Cassandras who can see the black swans or the dungeons in the castles of our dreams so we don't become prisoners to illusions. At same time the Pollyannas helps us to pluck the rose from amidst the thorns.

All that in that the one liner.

We need both our Cassandras and Pollyannas!

[CRamS]

The word is that Hillary Clinton and strangely Def Sec Robert Gates are dead against any talks with Haqqani. Gates should know because he met with the senior Haqqani during his CIA days. The military brass is supposedly pissed that this whole tamasha is happening even before the Helmand offensive and increased drone attacks on N.Waziristan are given time to show results.

The other night, I saw a Gates interview on Fox. He categorically stated that he impressed on Kiyani & Co that all terrorists, and he emphasized Haqqani, must be eliminated. Despite this if Kiyani is boasting, that means as you said, he is trying to exploit the differences between "I know all" Honcho Holbrooke and Gates camp.

[Chinmayanand]

What if Pakistanis land at our border?

MJ Akbar ponders what will India do if a million pakistanis scared of taliban land at Indian border for refuge . {Gazwa-e-Hind in taqia style } India will ship them proportionately to the friends of pakistan.

[ramana]

As Chanakya says the best victory is one where the enemy destroys himself.
Yes GOI agreeing to talks may appear weak kneed but they are doing the needful.

[Prem]

Does the IA/IAF/IN have the equipment at present for a knockout blow? Are they ready for a decisive war? Perhaps a subconventional response may be more appropriate?

o
A decisive blow from our view would be the Separation of Sindh/Balochistan from the rest of the body. It is the access to Karachi that allows the Pakjabi state to pretend at great power status.A response must not harm the Sindh/Baloch/Pakhtun areas. These areas not intrinsically hateful of India civilization.

That is to have canal/s built to deliver water directly to Sindh via Rjasthan. Ek canal do kaaj. Increase subsidy to Afghanistan and tricke it down to brave Balochs. Make a deal with Oman for Baloch suzernity.

[shravan]

MJ Akbar ponders what will India do if a million pakistanis scared of taliban land at Indian border for refuge . {Gazwa-e-Hind in taqia style }

[Ananya]

may be i am talking fiction here but from Ragadus post and the things happening in here, it looks likly that Mr Gandhi would loose 2010 in all probability ( as he would destroy himself )that would lead somebody to separate out try to break the glass ceiling in 2012, then things would fall in order , till that time we will have to live with TSP to claim diplomatic victory

[R_Kumar]

What if Pakistanis land at our border?

MJ Akbar ponders what will India do if a million pakistanis scared of taliban land at Indian border for refuge . {Gazwa-e-Hind in taqia style } India will ship them proportionately to the friends of pakistan.

Take the control of few Pakistani cities and give these refuse army protection in those cities. Thats the only solution I can think of.
But I just pray that we won't have congress in the center when this happens.

[Nandu]

Pakistan Needs Its Own Nuclear Deal

Christine's next lifafa installment must have come in. Good use of Kerry-Lugar funds by the Pakis.

[SwamyG]

I hope it is kosher to mention orbat dot com here, right? Karachi and India are mentioned in the same paragraph.

[Rangudu]

As Chanakya says the best victory is one where the enemy destroys himself.
Yes GOI agreeing to talks may appear weak kneed but they are doing the needful.

Agreed on the net, net.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the general sense is that while the effect may turn out to be positive, the act of agreeing to talks at this stage was motivated by a vision of India coming from an inner weakness. As a corollary, this inner weakness has the danger of leading to future decisions that may not be as benign as the talks offer.

Bottom line - we have a race here where the enemy is speeding up his own destruction but the home team is also running fast along a dangerous slope.

[Rangudu]

Christine's next lifafa installment must have come in. Good use of Kerry-Lugar funds by the Pakis.

Nonsense. Chris Fair may be misguided here but she is the last person the TSPians would want to persuade. She is one of the few true mavericks in the DC South Asia circles.

[pgbhat]

^ I agree..... but the proposal of dismantling LeT in exchange for a nuke deal is ....
Bakis enjoy having asymmetric capabilities than parity with India.

[anupmisra]

Imagine the value-add India would get in a TSP-less world.

Be careful of what you wish, my friend. It may come true. "TSP-less" world may mean 180 million TSPians floating around like airborne disease in rest of the world including the US and India. Atleast for now, we can deport them to TSP. Maybe a TSP-lite is a better option.

[brihaspati]

The urge to "talk to TSP" is not that difficult to understand under the following model:

Note that USA has set in motion plans to withdraw militarily from the AFG (there have been countless statements and indications about this). To do this without losing political face and impression of unsustatainable military strength of the USA, the US admin will do this under a carefully managed claim of "stabilization". They will initiate this plan by an apparent reversal - a declared "upsurge" in military action against the Talebs. But simultaneously a "good Taleban" will be invented so that power is handed over to the group which would be able to hold on to it without "maintenance" from the USA. Karaazai and non-Taleb forces will need heavy doses of external "aid" which is a burden for current US economy. It makes financial sense to let the Talebs back into power.

But this creates problems in global politics because of the already revealed nature and implications of Talebs as far as Jihad is concerned. To make this handover believable and acceptable, they need to use TSP handlers of Jihad to put pressure on part of the Talebs to "cool it" temporarily so that a "faction" can be invented which can be shown as the really controlling one. Whitewashing all of the Taleb would not be believable to world opinion hence the need to put up a "faction". The British command statements to the intent that they want the "Talebs to melt away" from the urban centres - shows that they want to create the excuse to leave. Once the "urban centres" are cleared, they can claim to hand over gov power to the elite based in cities. However the cities in AFG are not that productive economically to sustain themselves and not that powerful to match the smuggling/drugs/gun-running economy of the countryside. Without constant 'airlifts" those urban centres will soon fallback into the hands of those whoc ontrol the countryside. But by that time the 'west" would have retreated in "good order".

USA does not control TSP entirely anymore - and there are more buyers on the market for TSP favours, like PRC or even Iran. So USA needs to dole out huge material as well as "ideological" brownies to TSPA+ISI to have the minimum leverage required to ensure the completion of its withdrawal plan. One of the top lollies that TSP will of course demand as brownie is bringing "India to heel". Any move that the TSP elite can use to represent itself as scoring against/weakening. India is important to hold on to the leadership of Jihad within AFPAK. There are now strong contenders for that leadership from the commons-Talebs-Pashtuns-theologians.

GOI is under pressure in more ways than one. It has the traditional binder of the Congress dilemma about Islamism. The "sole secularists" apper always mortally scared that any action taken against TSP/or hardening of stance against TSP - can shake up IM loyalty. Moreover it is always afraid that "excessive secularism" and non-response to the threat of Jihad, can bring on the nightmare of Hindu unity which will weaken the basis of dynastic power as the sole arbitor and conscience keeper of the nation. So Congress is most likely to respond in the classic way - by putting up the impression of two factions within its political spectrum. One "hardliner" and the other "softliner". Typically the dynastic scion remains absolutely non-commital until the very last moment. This is to hedge the bet for future tides in political opinion.

The agreement to talks can then be seen as part of such typical hedging. Pressure from USA, and indirect TSP pressure through USA, fear of losing vote-banks, a kind of self-reinforcing-feedback from media-driven cacophony among the middle and upper middle urban sections, all mounting toward "gestures of love".

But on the other hand fear of political backlash in the future, in case TSP really breaks out of the rabid dog pound and creates "trauma". So there will be rumours of "dissident voices" within the "party" etc. Most importantly you will not be able to extract any firm commitments/statements clarifying attitudes towards TSP - publicly - from the dynastic representatives. The GOI is definitely aware of the potentially destructive outcomes, but it is hamstringed out of its self-created political delusions.

TSP is most probably working according to its grandiose expansion plans, egged on by all sorts of theologians, and external players like KSA, PRC and perhaps even Iran cannot be entirely ruled out (who may join the field in its competition for the leadership of the Ummah with the KSA). TSP also perhaps already gloats that its plans in the "AFPAK" west - has virtually succeeded. So it may feel more confident in pressing on its apparent advantages to initiate the next phase of looking "east". The pressure needs to be put more before USA retires entirely - so the urgency.

[RamaY]

I was thinking about the same Anupmisra-ji,

TSP problem has to be solved at multiple levels

- Internal Security Level (ISI sleeper cells)
- Military level (destruction of TSPA+ISI)
- Strategic level (TSP+BD+Afghanistan)
- Geopolitical level (Unkil, Aunty, and god-less Brother)
- Civilizational level (Indic-ifying of Indian sub-continent)

Tough problem. But that is what makes it worth addressing and solving.

[putnanja]

...
The word is that Hillary Clinton and strangely Def Sec Robert Gates are dead against any talks with Haqqani. Gates should know because he met with the senior Haqqani during his CIA days. The military brass is supposedly pissed that this whole tamasha is happening even before the Helmand offensive and increased drone attacks on N.Waziristan are given time to show results.

The real issue here is that unlike George W. Bush, Obama changes his mind daily based on "ideas" and "arguments".
....

Joe Biden has been opposing US involvement in Afghanistan, he was even against the surge. My bet is that he along with Holbroke is pushing to disengage from Afghanistan ASAP, but they don't understand the hit US would take long term

[vdutta]

Substandard tractors exported to Japan
Wednesday, February 10, 2010
By Irfan Siddiqui

TOKYO: Pakistan may lose the huge market of its tractors in Japan due to the failure of a local manufacturer to provide the vehicle according to commitment.

Last year, Pakistani businessman Mian Saleem in Japan made efforts to introduce Pakistan-made tractors in the Japanese market. Saleem told The News he brought a Japanese business delegation to Pakistan which was interested in Pakistani tractors.

During the trip, the Japanese group expressed keen interest in the tractors and after negotiations placed an order of 150 tractors of model ML385.

According to the agreement, Saleem said, he got the delivery of 12 tractors in Japan in the first phase and those were sent to the Japanese company which had ordered them.

According to the accord, all tractors must be of 2009 model but on the body model 2000 was printed. Two tractors had no gear shaft while engines of some tractors stopped after few hours of drive. As a result, the Japanese company cancelled the order for the remaining 138 tractors.

“I am disappointed over the loss of business worth millions of dollars,” he told The News, adding a lot of effort was made to introduce Pakistani tractors in Japan which could be a huge market for Pakistan.

He said the dishonest deal destroyed the image of the country, adding the government should take notice of the case and take serious action.

He said the government must make sure the companies complied with rules and regulations and maintain quality and standard of products being exported.

http://thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=223394