Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Singha]

Russia seems to be expert at canisterized ICBM/IRBM on beastly maz telars and railway wagons. we ought to cut short the learning curve, obtain the cold launch starter kit and value pkg and run with the ball on it.

pumping out a 50t ICBM , 25m straight up in the blink of an eye is no mean feat.

[arun]

5,000-km range Agni-V to be tested in a year: DRDO
Feb 10

The weight gain of just one tonne for the Agni V vis a vis the Agni III despite being five meters longer is interesting.

Does one then conclude if that is not a typo and that Agni V is all composite?

[Rahul M]

unless the attendant problems are solved it is un-realistic.

as long as Tomahawk AShm [TASM] can find a role, there is always possibility of others fielding a longer range missile.

the flight time will also be very high giving the target ship ample time to react. the solution then is to greatly increase the speed of the missile, which is what the russians did on their monstrous anti-ship missiles. unfortunately that also increases the size and weight of the missile meaning that only very large cruisers can carry them.

Maybe, you say, there is a possibility of K-15 fitting that bill ?

kanson, TASM had a range of 450 km and was retired in early 90's, 93 IIRC.

there are some very obvious problems in using a BM as an anti-ship missile. (follow any discussion about the efficacy of chinese anti-ship BMs) first of all, the target acquisition problem applies again in this case, secondly the accuracy needed would be hard to achieve on a moving target. it's one thing to achieve precision on a fixed target on ground, quite another to successfully hit a moving target at sea. even a miss by 10 metres will be a complete failure in the second case, unless one use nuclear warheads.
I'm not sure the technology has matured to that extent for BMs to be effectively used as anti-ship missiles.

[kittoo]

From same Agni 5 news on rediff-

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/feb/ ... a-year.htm

Saraswat said, "After Agni III and Agni V, as far as cities in China and Pakistan are concerned, there will be no target that we want to hit but can't hit."

Saying direct names? Thats bold IMO.

[SaiK]

A sub launched 5K wala is the one we need.

[vasu_ray]

5,000-km range Agni-V to be tested in a year: DRDO
Feb 10

The weight gain of just one tonne for the Agni V vis a vis the Agni III despite being five meters longer is interesting.

Does one then conclude if that is not a typo and that Agni V is all composite?

A sub launched 5K wala is the one we need.

Once the A-5 launch succeeds they will go back to optimize the weight of A-3 which can increase the range of sub launched A-3

[negi]

^ You might want to include the 'vented interstage' section when one talks about extra length of '5' meters .

Anyways google as usual returns pretty interesting stuff . This gentleman 'Norbert Brügge' from Germany maintains a nice website with details of Indian space and missile programme covered in astonishing details (with references to BRF's missile page by Arun_S).

India's solid-fuel ballistic missile-family "Agni"

And this page has almost complete info on ISRO's launch vehicles.

India's space launch vehicles

[KrishG]

[youtube]WqkmDUOiFCs&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

[milindc]

On a news segment on Agni-III on CNEB, Dr. Saraswat stated that propulsion power of Agni-III can take it up to 1000 kms into space which can used for launching satellite and if we put a kill vehicle on top of it, it will be become satellite killer.
The statement was in Hindi.

[koti]

Several Air-to-Air missiles have a coasting phase in their flight profile.
Akash on the other hand has almost uniform propulsion throughout its flight.
Is there any easy way to implement this coasting in Akash to increase its range??

[swapna]

Why is th altitude reading performing awkwardy after 345 ?

[RamaY]

self edited

[RoyG]

I've noticed that most ICBMs and IRBMs lack the caged interstage. Is there a downside to the feature?

[ramana]

I've noticed that most ICBMs and IRBMs lack the caged interstage. Is there a downside to the feature?

It gives you more leeway during stage separation for the exhaust gases to vent. I am not sure for under water launch.

Read E Bruhn "Design of Missile Structures" A very rare book.

[Varoon Shekhar]

"On a news segment on Agni-III on CNEB, Dr. Saraswat stated that propulsion power of Agni-III can take it up to 1000 kms into space which can used for launching satellite.."

More than 11 years ago, Kalam spoke about the Agni missile being used to launch a satellite in the year 2000. That never took place, but the propulsive power of Agni 3 is greater. And there's more talk now of ASAT development.

[VinodTK]

India hopes to test 5,000-km range Agni-V within a year

DRDO chief V K Saraswat on Wednesday said India
already had the `building blocks' for ASAT weapons and was far ahead of China in the BMD arena.

[Gerard]

India to test new 5000-km nuclear missile within year

Saraswat said Agni-V had a 1.5 tonne nuclear warhead payload.
"You can reduce the payload and (further) increase the range," he said

[a_kumar]

Question to Gurus.. Not too long ago, there were fears of India using Satellite launch capability for ICBMs. I am wondering about the feasibility other way around. Russia launched nano-sats from submarines with Shitl missiles. (link)

The satellites were dropped off in elliptical orbits ranging from 250 to 500 miles above Earth.

Why can't India do something similar?

Taking latest example of Agni-III with peak altitude of 350Km, it already breaks into LEO territory and is more than half way to the 622 kms target of PSLV. It carries 1500Kg of payload too. With one or two exceptions, all of PSLV launches were for payloads of 1200Kg or less.

Agni-series -> Weighs ~50Tons, Smaller dimensions, ready-made, minimal logistics

PSLV -> Weighs ~250Tons, Larger dimensions, Long Prep-time, massive logistics.

If Agni-III could be used as satellite launch vehicles, then there is no limit to how many launches one can carry on. When I look at the gap between the two, my question already begins to sound silly!!! But nevertheless, what it it? Why can't Agni-III go higher instead of farther and place satellites in orbits?

According to Saraswat in today's ToI article India hopes to test 5,000-km range Agni-V within a year.

"Agni-III's propulsion system coupled with the BMD system's `kill vehicle' will compose an ASAT weapon. The propulsion system is adequate to carry the ASAT warhead to 1,000-km altitude,'' said Saraswat.

--Aded Later--
Guess its on several minds.

[Gerard]

I've noticed that most ICBMs and IRBMs lack the caged interstage. Is there a downside to the feature?

http://www.indiatoday.com/itoday/20070430/defence.html

Half the technologies validated in Agni 2 were retained, including an open inter-stage separating the first from the second-stage rocket motor. It enabled the missile to fire its second-stage rocket motor even before the first had burnt out, ensuring no loss of power at a critical phase in its flight. Chander says: “The thumb rule is to combine change with continuity, a good mix of old and new technologies. Otherwise, uncertainty increases and the time factor could become unmanageable.”

[Gagan]

a_kumar
Let me try and take a shot at your question, although I am no rocket scientist.

The question is not achieving the required altitude, the agni-3 does achieve a 350Km altitude and as per shri saraswat, it can do a 1000Km altitude also. Your question is that once it acheives that altitude, why doesn't it deploy the satellite and the satellite stay in orbit?

The problem is giving that satellite that velocity so that it remains in orbit. The difference between a missile and a satellite launching rocket is that the latter gives the payload the altitude AND the velocity so that it remains in orbit. On the contrary, the missile just deposits its payload at the apogee, without imparting it the required orbital velocity - the payload simply falls down to earth in the parabolic path and becomes the missile re-entry vehicle.

It is quite challenging to design a rocket motor specifically for high altitude which can impart that all important orbital velocity to the payload. It is comparatively much much easier to just have a plain jane rocket that'll function as a missile.

[arun]

I've noticed that most ICBMs and IRBMs lack the caged interstage. Is there a downside to the feature?

This excerpt addresses the flip side of your question, namely the advantages of a Vented Interstage:

VENTED INTERSTAGE SEPARATION (HOT SEPARATION)

In the hot or vented interstage separation the adjacent stages are separated by the impingement of the hot exhaust gas jet from the engine of the ongoing stage. The engine of the ongoing stage ignites when the two stages are still connected together. This type of separation is called hot separation or fire in the hole staging. The engine of the continuing stages is ignited at a time much before the occurrences of burned out stage separation. Thus, eliminates the need for jettisoning devices to provide the separation impulse. When the thrust build up of the upper stage reaches some level, the release mechanism is initiated and physical separate take places. In this case, provision for venting the exhaust gases from the continuing stage is made in the interstage attached to the spent stage. This option provides relatively less no control duration, high separation force and high reliability. Sturdy heat insulation layer should be added on the top of the lower stage tank to prevent damage due to the high pressure and hot stream of engine exhaust from the upper stage. However the design of the structure has to consider the high temperature environment.

The hot gas separation system is a passives system. It eliminates the uses of retro and Ullage rocket system, thus enhances the reliability and hence makes it robust as hot gas separation system allows the ignition of the ignition of the second stage prior to separation there is a considerable reduction of the none control duration.

From the below article which provides a decent lay mans overview on the subject of staging:

Stage Seperation System Design for Space Launch Vehicles

[Kanson]

as long as Tomahawk AShm [TASM] can find a role, there is always possibility of others fielding a longer range missile.
...
Maybe, you say, there is a possibility of K-15 fitting that bill ?

kanson, TASM had a range of 450 km and was retired in early 90's, 93 IIRC.

Ofcourse, the very reason i brought the TASM is it has more or less the same concept as Brahmos in id-ing and homing on the target underlining the fact that the concept is same across Russian thinking and American thinking and if it can used for 450 km it can be used for higher ranges. And this 300 km is due to MTCR as you know and it has higher range.
PS: There is talk of using the current Tomahawk for anti ship role equipped in Seawolf and Virginia sub as well as Standard missile.

there are some very obvious problems in using a BM as an anti-ship missile. (follow any discussion about the efficacy of chinese anti-ship BMs) first of all, the target acquisition problem applies again in this case, secondly the accuracy needed would be hard to achieve on a moving target. it's one thing to achieve precision on a fixed target on ground, quite another to successfully hit a moving target at sea. even a miss by 10 metres will be a complete failure in the second case, unless one use nuclear warheads. I'm not sure the technology has matured to that extent for BMs to be effectively used as anti-ship missiles.

Pls dont talk abt Chinese here. If you ask me my humble opinion is it is an insult to Indian fellows who worked on the program. Second, our requirement and solution is not in same league with what Chinese trying to do.
One more pls. K-15 is not referred as Ballistic missle in any official nomenclature. Neither it has ballistic profile. If you still want to refer it as ballistic, hope you have heard about the anti-ship role for Dhanush which is classified as Ballistic. And further often there is talk about pinpoint accuracy and single digit accuracy attributed to the Indian Ballistic missile like Dhanush/Prithvi, the current Agni-3 or the missile called Shourya/K-15.

[Kanson]

Why can't India do something similar?

Taking latest example of Agni-III with peak altitude of 350Km, it already breaks into LEO territory and is more than half way to the 622 kms target of PSLV. It carries 1500Kg of payload too. With one or two exceptions, all of PSLV launches were for payloads of 1200Kg or less

If Agni-3 can take a payload of 1500 kg to 1000 km then it will be called as ICBM. As we know it can only go the height of ~ 400 km.

Kill vehicle wont weight that much so it can taken to 1000 km.

[Singha]

wonder what the data sources KAMA1 and GRS1 were? onboard sensors transmitting back to base or some
satellite tracking radars (some people put them on ships too) ?

[arun]

5,000-km range Agni-V to be tested in a year: DRDO
Feb 10

The weight gain of just one tonne for the Agni V vis a vis the Agni III despite being five meters longer is interesting.

Does one then conclude if that is not a typo and that Agni V is all composite?

Turns out that information by IANS indicating that the Agni V would be 5 meters longer than the Agni III was a typographical error which instead should have read as being 0.5 meters longer. That would be more consistent with the 1 tonne weight gain mentioned again by IANS.

Agni Programme Director Avinash Chander quoted by PTI:

"Agni-V will be the first missile that will have a three-stage propulsion system. It will have the same warhead and navigation system as that of the Agni-III, has the same diameter of 2 meters and is only half a metre longer than it,"

The rocket motors would be {all?} composite :

"The missile will have composite rocket motors instead of metal rocket motors. That technology has been realised 90 per cent as we have already tested it and are fine-tuning it to meet our requirements. It is in the sub-systems testing stage,"

PTI via DNA[

[arun]

Nirbhay is apparently a technology demonstrator only and wiil have an 800 Km range:

Nirbhay

India has completed the propulsion system design of its new cruise missile ‘Nirbhay’ which will have a strike range of 800 kms, Dr. Saraswat has said.

“The development of the system is on. We have completed the propulsion system’s design. But we have not integrated it. Once we reach the integration stage, we will show it you,” he told reporters here last night.

Dr. Saraswat said the missile is a technology demonstrator. ..............

The Hindu

[Nihat]

TD would imply the first test model , surely it will be inducted when it's testing is completed comprehensivly.

IMHO , this would be the one missile which would scare the Pukes shitless. In the aftermath of 26/11 we needed such a weapon desperaltly. It would probably not have been worth risking MKI's (millions per plane) and pilots (invaluable) for hitting jungle targets i TSP. Brahmos too was lesser in number and limited by range , also too expensive to be wasted on terror camp type targets.

- Nirbhay would cover the entire TSP (all major cities and assets)
- It can be produced in big numbers
- Won't cost nearly as much as Brahmos
- We would comfortably stay below Nuke threshold.
- Capable of precision strikes again low and mid value targets like Terror camps and airfields , other Infra.

Nirbhay would be the single most important missile against TSP , be it deterrance or first strike ability. It's deployment is Vital.

[Nihat]

Posting in Full

I spent a few minutes interviewing Dr Avinash Chander, director of India's Agni missile programme (and Director, Advanced Systems Laboratory) on Wednesday evening. He is the country's most valuable rocket scientist today, but you wouldn't know it. Unassuming, quiet and supremely focused on his task, he's a man who has spent the last three years giving the Indian government options that it has never had before. And with the Agni-III strategic missile completing its testing stage and now ready for operational induction with India's Strategic Forces Command, it's time for the next big thing.

At this time next year, India will begin testing its longest range weapon yet, the newest in its Agni family of strategic ballistic missiles, named the Agni-V. According to DRDO chief Dr VK Saraswat, the country's seniormost weapon scientist, "The Agni-V has moved out of the drawing board. We have crossed the metal cutting stage. We are now testing and evaluating subsystems and plan to conduct a first flight trial within a year."

According to Dr Chander, the Agni-V will be 22-metres long and approximately 1-ton heavier than the Agni-III. The Agni-V's navigation system and warhead will be identical to the Agni-III, as will a great deal of subsystems, aggregates and electronics. The team has stated that 60 per cent of the first missile system is complete, while the remainder involves the crucial third stage of the missile. Dr Chander revealed today that the challenges that lied ahead include changes in the payload structure, introduction of extra heating and slight changes to the re-entry mechanism. The Agni-V will also be the first Indian missile with a composite rocket motor as opposed to a metallic one.
"The problems we had with previous tests of the Agni-2 and Agni-III were not design defects but problems with quality assurance. We have rectified those problems and don't foresee any such hurdles on the Agni-V," Dr Chander said.

Clarifying that India did NOT have an independent intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) programme, DRDO chief Dr Saraswat said, "The country's requirement right now is a missile with a range in the region of 5,000-km-plus. A missile with a range beyond this has not been identified as necessary for our strategic programme. However, we have the capability to build longer range missiles if the country calls upon us to do so. The building blocks are already in place."

Cocking a snook at the Chinese ballistic missile programme, Dr Chander told me, "I can say that our technology is maturer than theirs. And of course, there is no comparison at all with Pakistan. We are technologically way ahead of them. Of course, the Agni is our very own missile, not borrowed technology."

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/02/55 ... -year.html

[sum]

India has completed the propulsion system design of its new cruise missile ‘Nirbhay’ which will have a strike range of 800 kms, Dr. Saraswat has said.

“The development of the system is on. We have completed the propulsion system’s design. But we have not integrated it. Once we reach the integration stage, we will show it you,” he told reporters here last night.

Damn, so the Vizag sub missile test was not Nirbhay then.

What was it then, the K-15?

[sunny y]

Damn, so the Vizag sub missile test was not Nirbhay then.

What was it then, the K-15?

According to Kanson ji that was most probably Varunastra because it was supposed to be tested around the same time.

Thanks

[Neela]

Nirbhay on livefist.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/02/up ... ssile.html

[sum]

Damn, so the Vizag sub missile test was not Nirbhay then.

What was it then, the K-15?

According to Kanson ji that was most probably Varunastra because it was supposed to be tested around the same time.

Thanks

Had seen that Ramana garu had clarified that the sub was surfaced ruling out a torpedo.

[ramana]

Thanks. I think it was proofing the launch tubes for the K15 vehicle. What I mean is an inert weight model with the booster is launched to check out the ejection from the tube. As this won't go far there is no need for NOTAR etc.

The report about scientists following in a ship all that jives with this speculation. This would give visual data.

[a_kumar]

@Gagan.. Thanks for the detail. Completely missed velocity

[SaiK]

extended range of brahmos-II (or call it whatever) say comes to 800 kms., do we still need a sub sonic cruise missile?

[ramana]

@Gagan.. Thanks for the detail. Completely missed velocity

Added to that orbital injection requires > 7km/sec. As the test reports say AIII achieved 4km/sec for the 1.5 tonne payload. So at what payload weight the 1000km apogee is expected? Will ask Arun and see what he says.

[Craig Alpert]

Indo-French Maitri SR-SAM Awaits Workshare Clearance

A comprehensive workshare proposal has been put together by DRDO and technology partner MBDA for the MAITRI short range surface-to-air missile (SR-SAM) programme. According to sources at DRDO and MBDA, both sides have identified all collaborative development areas and are are fully prepared to complete development and the first phase of testing within three years from the time the project is given formal sanction by the Cabinet. The partnership began in 2007 as part of the umbrella government-to-government agreement between India and France on missiles. Like at AeroIndia 2009, where it made its public debut, a full-scale model of the Maitri will make a reappearance at DefExpo 2010 which kicks off next week.

The ownership of the Maitri programme is envisaged as being fully Indian. With baseline technologies from the Trishul SAM programme, the Maitri programme basically envisages the sale of certain key technologies by MBDA to DRDO (seeker, endgame avionics, fire control system, composites for a modified propulsion system), though production will not be under a corporate joint venture on the lines of BrahMos, but would rather be carried out entirely by Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL), India's state-owned munitions production agency.

The Maitri is being built in two basic variants -- a ship-borne point defence and tactical air defence version for the Navy and a land-based self-propelled (wheeled and tracked) launcher-based system for the Air Force and Army.

[Prem Kumar]

The Nirbhay news is big-time KLPD - feeling depressed. I had doubts about its readiness given that it didnt make it in DRDO's goals for 2010, but was hoping against hope.

The only reason this program might be kept alive is that we will not get a 800KM range missile under MTCR.

[Prem Kumar]

The good news these days is that Col. Ajai Shukla and Shiv Aroor seem to be on a competitive streak on defense reporting

[a_kumar]

Added to that orbital injection requires > 7km/sec. As the test reports say AIII achieved 4km/sec for the 1.5 tonne payload. So at what payload weight the 1000km apogee is expected? Will ask Arun and see what he says.

Would be nice to hear the Guru's take. The datapoint on Russian experience (Shitl as SLV) makes more sense now.

Tubsat-N, designated internationally as 1998-042A, weighed eighteen lbs. while Tubsat-N1, designated 1998-042B, weighed seven lbs.

Thats a total of 25lbs + an unspecified Isreali payload.

The R-29RM missile that this SLV was based on has a range of 8500 KM and can carry 4 100Kt devices. But it can only do the following.

The launcher, offered by the State Rocket Center (also known as the Makeyev Design Bureau) of Miass, Chelyabinsk, Russia, can lift up to 160 kg into a 200 km low earth orbit when launched from a submerged Delta IV class submarine in the Barents Sea off Russia's northern coastline.

.....
The Shtil-1N, based on the liquid-fuel RSM-54 (NATO designator SS-N-23), was initially planned to begin orbital flights with payloads of up to 510 kg in 1995 from the Severkosmos ground facilities at the Plesetsk Cosmodrome. The larger Shtil-3N would have an increased payload of 950 kg