Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 12 Feb 2010 02:19

sum wrote:Had seen that Ramana garu had clarified that the sub was surfaced ruling out a torpedo.

Which sub was this? A kilo?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 12 Feb 2010 02:34

Agni-III Not Against Any Country: Antony

India today said it was closely watching the Chinese military build-up and taking all necessary measures to shape its response, even as it maintained that the 3,500-km range Agni-III ballistic missile was not aimed at any particular country.

"We are carrying out continuous appraisals of its (China's) military capabilities. At the same time, we are also taking all necessary measures to shape our responses," Defence Minister A K Antony told an Asian Security Conference organised by Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses here.

He said bilateral relations with China was progressing and that both countries had invested in confidence-building measures aimed at enhancing understanding and trust-building.

"Every nation has to be adequately prepared to safeguard its territorial integrity and sovereignty. We will make all-out efforts to strengthen our security and safeguard our people. However, our defence policy is neither aggressive, nor is it aimed at any particular country," he said.

"We only seek to build an effective deterrent capability to safeguard ourselves. The recent successful test of Agni-II needs to be seen in this context. It is not aimed against any particular nation," he said.

The nuclear-tipped Agni-III has all cities in both Pakistan and China, including Beijing, within its striking range and will be India's second strike deterrent.

The missile was successfully tested on Sunday ahead of its induction into India's Strategic Forces Command.

Antony said India had always supported complete elimination of all nuclear weapons and had strongly and voluntarily committed to 'No First Use' of nuclear weapons.

"We also welcome the ongoing debate on nuclear disarmament and has been steadfast in the support of the only two non-discriminatory treaties banning weapons of mass destruction -- the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) and the Biological and Toxins Weapons Convention (BTWC)," he added.
..................................

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 12 Feb 2010 08:17

India completes propulsion system design of its new cruise missile ‘Nirbhay’

India has completed the propulsion system design of its new cruise missile ‘Nirbhay’ which will have a strike range of 800 kms,

Wasn't it supposed to be 1000km in range or its typo ?

indigenous Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) shield in near future, a programme, he claimed, is more sophisticated than the Chinese one.”This is one area where we are senior to China,”

Why always they have to Brag about it and Bring China into all interviews

http://idrw.org/?p=476#more-476

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 12 Feb 2010 08:39

GlobalTimes has a story on how far ahead China's program is:

Firing off missile claims

http://military.globaltimes.cn/china/20 ... 05529.html

Chinese Rear Admiral Zhang Zhaozhong, a professor at the Chinese National Defense University, said India is still 10 to 15 years behind China in terms of missile technology.

"It's still unknown when the Agni-III will be deployed by the Indian army, though they claim the missile is ready for use. And it might take at least another five years to ready the Agni-V," Zhang said. "In developing its military technology, China has never taken India as a strategic rival, and none of its weapons were specifically designed to contain India."

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 12 Feb 2010 10:41

csharma wrote:GlobalTimes has a story on how far ahead China's program is:

Isn't this supposed to be a good thing ??

Let the Chinese delude themselves into their own superiority and learn the hard way. While it serves Indians domestically to highlight the Chinese as way ahead of India and promote the idea that we have to catch up! This way, the government is not allowed to fall into complacence and the Chinese are left in complacence.
.
I think the Indian establishment should always play down their capabilities as it helps motivate both DRDO and the GoI because as they say the 2nd best tries the hardest.

arun · Post by **arun** » 12 Feb 2010 10:44

C Sharma,

See you got here first. I was going to x-post that very same Global Times article.

So FWIW I’ll just point out that Global Times which has been described by the UK’s Financial Times as “a nationalist tabloid owned by People's Daily, the Communist party mouthpiece” besides posting two other quotes from the same article.

"India's technology for its measurement and control system, which is used to trace launched missiles, remains at a very low level, and they are unable to constitute a complete and reliable missile defense system,"

"Some Indian politicians, however, always depict China as an imaginary enemy in order to develop nuclear missiles and submarines, which only reflects their lack of confidence and dwelling on historical problems,"

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 12 Feb 2010 13:13

If A-5 is a true blue ICBM, then can we expect the S-series to be in the 11200 kms range (S2- 15500, S3- 20k+) with the option for a 350 kt TN warhead? I feel that A3 and A5 would only carry fissile warheads <= 200 kt in order to be true to their CEP, A5 would basically just be an addition to A3's range with higher rentry vel and higher % of composites.

Do correct me if i'm wrong.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 12 Feb 2010 13:42

Nihat wrote:TD would imply the first test model , surely it will be inducted when it's testing is completed comprehensivly.

- Nirbhay would cover the entire TSP (all major cities and assets)
- It can be produced in big numbers
- Won't cost nearly as much as Brahmos
- We would comfortably stay below Nuke threshold.
- Capable of precision strikes again low and mid value targets like Terror camps and airfields , other Infra.

Nirbhay would be the single most important missile against TSP , be it deterrance or first strike ability. It's deployment is Vital.

It would also be the perfect missile for use against the onshore operations of Somali pirates, in order to bring down their support networks on the continent (Horn region), Nirbhay would work perfectly with IN which will be based off Oman (new naval base).

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 12 Feb 2010 18:48

Chinese TV...
India plans to test ICBM within year

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 12 Feb 2010 19:48

‘India senior to China in missile programme’

On the dates of test of the BMD shield, he said it was expected to be carried out within this month.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 12 Feb 2010 20:31

India tests Agni III intermediate missile

Not everyone was happy with the Agni III missile test. Orissa state wildlife officials want to stop missile testing during the nesting period of an endangered migratory turtle. P.N. Padhi, the principal chief conservator of forest and wildlife, said, "The testing should have been avoided."
...
Up to 800,000 turtles can nest there every winter between December and March, according to wildlife officials who claim the testing causes vibrations in the ground that may disrupt maturation of turtle eggs.

The DRDO has in the past assured state officials that no testing would take place between November and April.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 12 Feb 2010 21:07

India's ASAT Concept A Hybrid Of Agni And AAD

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Feb 2010 21:12

The S series will not take official avatars. It will be rolled up into various A5 variants. Geo-Politics.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Feb 2010 22:24

csharma wrote:.. Zhang said. "In developing its military technology, China has never taken India as a strategic rival, and none of its weapons were specifically designed to contain India."

and what was all those weapons and equipments that was given to pakis?

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 12 Feb 2010 22:39

If India wasnt target of chipanda missile.They wouldnt be putting them in tibet.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 13 Feb 2010 09:09

India not working on Anti Satellite Weapons program (ASAT): DRDO

DRDO chief DR VK Saraswat has confirmed that India is not working on Anti Satellite Weapons program, since there is no requirement of such system from the Armed forces, but went on to add that design study of such a weapon has already has been carried out and if asked country can built it up within three years time frame.

Indian ASAT program studies started off after Chinese test even then DRDO and ISRO had claimed that they can come up with such a systems in matter of years if told to.

I think the two statements are quite contradictory...what to make out of it....!

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 13 Feb 2010 09:44

instead of returning the unused defense funds at the end of the year why can't they spend it on these programs? given the lead times DRDO requires, anticipation of requirements ahead of time is needed, now that China demonstrated the ASAT weapon, we didn't see reactive requirements either

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 13 Feb 2010 10:11

vasu_ray wrote:instead of returning the unused defense funds at the end of the year why can't they spend it on these programs? given the lead times DRDO requires, anticipation of requirements ahead of time is needed, now that China demonstrated the ASAT weapon, we didn't see reactive requirements either

While I see the need for urgency, if DRDO is allowed to move around the funds as they please, then there is no accountability at all.

We may now think it is justified for ASAT, but once that is allowed, what is to stop them from manipulating the process and diverting funds to whatever they want!

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 13 Feb 2010 10:40

RAW has a secret fund, while there is a debate raging on its overseeing, its never meant to stymie their function

similarly DRDO can have a Technology Demonstration fund which both they and the armed forces can contribute to, it need not be a secret

also don't they have 'profits' from sale of Akash, Arjun etc., that their management has some control on where to spend?

oh, btw they created a Tank Ex which wasn't initiated by the Army

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 13 Feb 2010 11:32

K_Rohit wrote:
Kanson wrote: Novice alert:

We now have a dependable long range capability, we also have a advanced maneovering missile in Shaurya, can't we wed this to make a kick @** AShM?
A novice reply: Sometime back, someone said in the internet, IN has a requirement for min 700 km missile, as it finds 300km Brahmos as short legged. This was much before the announcement of K-15/Shourya.

Some more novice thoughts- dont we need a radar or tracking ability first? We may be able to develop missiles with ranges at over 700 Km, but unless we have a radar and tracking system which covers that distance, whats the point?

Which begs the question...how is target identification and tracking done for Brahmos? I doubt the ship radars have that range...so it would have to be KA-28s/KA-31s. Do they have the range and have we seen KA-31s deployed on frigates and destroyers? I thought they were solely meant for the carrier?

I believe that attacking land based target enemy beyond radar range is possible thorough a GPS system. Experts please comment

K

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 13 Feb 2010 15:05

Old News from July 2008 in BR

Anti-satellite system:
After the recent events, it was decided to look at our own options to develop an anti-satellite system. AD radar can be used to track satellite and its C4I systems can also be used in this respect as well. Agni-1 first stage coupled with AAD vehicle can target satellites in 700 Km orbit

Request to mods: can those posts on the lecture be archived in a different thread

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Feb 2010 19:30

Kersi D wrote:I believe that attacking land based target enemy beyond radar range is possible thorough a GPS system. Experts please comment

K

only if you know the lat/long of the target before hand (i.e. it is static and has been accurately measured using satellites or other references) and you have inertial nav within the weapon to guide it from its known position to the known target position

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 14 Feb 2010 17:09

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Feb 2010 17:37

K Mehta wrote:Old News from July 2008 in BR
Anti-satellite system:
After the recent events, it was decided to look at our own options to develop an anti-satellite system. AD radar can be used to track satellite and its C4I systems can also be used in this respect as well. Agni-1 first stage coupled with AAD vehicle can target satellites in 700 Km orbit
Request to mods: can those posts on the lecture be archived in a different thread

removing them from that thread will break the continuity of the AI09 thread, leaving gaping holes.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 14 Feb 2010 20:37

'India's missile tech a decade behind that of China'

Chinese Rear Admiral Zhang Zhaozhong, a professor at the prestigious Chinese National Defence University, said India is still 10 to 15 years behind China in terms of missile technology.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 14 Feb 2010 20:38

'India's missile tech a decade behind that of China'

Was Dr. Saraswat replying to a DDM question or did he bring up the topic of China?

The Chinese response could be useful for proving the geopolitical space for long range ICBM development (the need to 'catch up' with China, 'national pride' etc).

Just some idle speculation

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 14 Feb 2010 20:50

^ He talked about ABM systems and not missiles per se. A pointed question was asked to him to compare indian and china missiles defence programs.

Saraswat said the country is also gearing to test its its indigenous Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) shield in near future, a programme, he claimed, is more sophisticated than the Chinese one.

"This is one area where we are senior to China," he said when asked to compare Indian BMD programme with that of China, which carried out its first test-firing on January 14.

L Ram · Post by **L Ram** » 14 Feb 2010 21:01

no need of such comparative statements at press conference.
Keep the dragon guessing

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 15 Feb 2010 02:26

While everyone's cheering about the Agin III success, here's some news regarding the outcome of Agni II's Failure!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Feb 2010 03:37

Do they know what went wrong? Before fixing blame they need to know what went wrong. From news above, the scientists are saying its assembly errors ie mfg, while the mfg are demur.

You could have multiple causes and a deeper underlaying environment that fosters the multiple causes.

As the saying goes" you point a finger, three are pointed at you and the thumb upwards(to fate)!"

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 15 Feb 2010 03:51

A jingo question

how many agni missiles are produced annually and how many are deployed and with what yield warheads ? Any clues, anyone ? Or we just keep testing

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 15 Feb 2010 03:55

Ascribing blame does nothing for Indian deterrence. The problem has to be fixed.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Feb 2010 08:54

When they get to know what went wrong then there would be no need to point fingers. And, is this the first time something has failed?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Feb 2010 10:57

looks to me that the people held responsible for the fiasco found a journo to vent.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 15 Feb 2010 11:21

Rahul M wrote:looks to me that the people held responsible for the fiasco found a journo to vent.

The news article itself is dubious to me..

The DRDO line was "there was no design deficiency.. there were manufacturing defects"... which infers there would have been some quality control problems.. remember the problems with one of the strap-ons failing on the GSLV - similar.

However the manufacturing itself is not done by DRDL/ASL/RCI (except for some critical items).. starting with LSP stage - most of the manufacturing is done by BDL & private industry.. So the blame is not really with any "junior scientists".

there will be quality assurance scientists whose job is to oversee what comes in is inline with the specifications within the specified tolearances.. and if there is a manufacturing defect & it flowed into the assembly of the missile -- then, ofcourse, the quality assurance guy is in the firing line... But the fault really originates with the fabricator (either private or BDL) and the responsibility also rests with the quality assurance team.. However in this case - it is fairly clear and one cannot shirt responsibility..

But the surmise of the article that blame is "unnecessarily or unreasonably" being passed on to some junior scientists is without strong base..

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 15 Feb 2010 16:04

India eyeing Javelin, the fire-and-forget missile

India is in talks with the United States to buy Raytheon's Javelin fire-and-forget missiles that have been used in Iraq and Afghanistan, Walter Doran, Asia president at the U.S. firm, told Reuters on Monday.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 16 Feb 2010 12:11

Different version of BrahMos to be tested
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 107287.ece

.....
The version for the army would be tested shortly for it efficacy to hit targets on surface after clearing natural obstruction requiring ascent and descent, defence sources said here.

The Air Force variant of BrahMos is also being prepared for test from the underbelly of a Sukhoi-MKI frontline fighter after earlier attempt to fix them under the wings was not successful.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 16 Feb 2010 12:40

India to deploy Akash missiles in North-East to deter China
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 577195.cms

...
India plans to progressively base six surface-to-air Akash missile squadrons in the North-East to counter the threat posed by Chinese fighters, helicopters and drones in the region.

Sources say IAF will get eight Akash tactical air defence squadrons by 2015, with the first one becoming operational by 2011 itself, at a cost of over Rs 6,100 crore. Every squadron will have two `flights' of four Akash launchers each. Moreover, the Army is now poised to order two Akash regiments, with six firing batteries each, for around Rs 4,000 crore.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Feb 2010 13:13

the article claims 36 su30 each in tezpur and chabua or maybe it was mistaken and they mean
36 in total across two squadrons. we certainly need half the su30 fleet based in the NE - places like hashimara , kalaikunda, bagdogra, silchar, jorhat need serious upgrades to base fighers
and serve as satellite bases.

----

Though it woke up quite late, India is now fastracking measures like raising of two new specialised infantry mountain divisions and an artillery brigade for Arunachal Pradesh and basing of two Sukhoi-30MKI squadrons (36 fighters) each at Tezpur and Chabua in Assam.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 16 Feb 2010 14:06

dinesha wrote:Different version of BrahMos to be tested
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 107287.ece

.....
The version for the army would be tested shortly for it efficacy to hit targets on surface after clearing natural obstruction requiring ascent and descent, defence sources said here.

The Air Force variant of BrahMos is also being prepared for test from the underbelly of a Sukhoi-MKI frontline fighter after earlier attempt to fix them under the wings was not successful.

Hmm! That implies only one Brahmos per aircraft.