Indian Military Aviation

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Feb 2010 08:54

whether in terms of carrying capacity or endurance, dhruv doesn't fit in the role, simple as that.

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 11 Feb 2010 10:13

Natt wrote: I know, and I agree, but talking about choppers, you do agree that flying and maintaining a squadron of Mi8 or dhruv for that matter is easier, cheaper, logical than having just 12 choppers of a completely different type in an inventory of approx 330 choppers with many more dhruv in the pipeline. ?
and the COMM Squad isnt really a podium for the best pilots.

By this logic...we manufacture DO-228s in India. So why do we need any other transport? Scrap all C-130, C-17/IL-76, etc etc and fly only the DO-228s.

These are different helos to meet a different demand.

Natt · Post by **Natt** » 11 Feb 2010 12:19

K_Rohit wrote:
Natt wrote: I know, and I agree, but talking about choppers, you do agree that flying and maintaining a squadron of Mi8 or dhruv for that matter is easier, cheaper, logical than having just 12 choppers of a completely different type in an inventory of approx 330 choppers with many more dhruv in the pipeline. ?
and the COMM Squad isnt really a podium for the best pilots.
By this logic...we manufacture DO-228s in India. So why do we need any other transport? Scrap all C-130, C-17/IL-76, etc etc and fly only the DO-228s.

These are different helos to meet a different demand.

dont you think comparing dorniers to ILs or C 17 is a bit too much. The whole point of the 'discussion' was to ascertain weather indigenous aircraft could fill that position. Dont make assumptions of" by that logic". By that logic of using Indian stuff..you should not be typing onto a hp/dell/sony computer.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Feb 2010 12:58

Natt wrote:dont you think comparing dorniers to ILs or C 17 is a bit too much. The whole point of the 'discussion' was to ascertain weather indigenous aircraft could fill that position. Dont make assumptions of" by that logic". By that logic of using Indian stuff..you should not be typing onto a hp/dell/sony computer.

don't just argue for the sake of arguing. is the Dhruv in the same weight/size class as the Mi-8/Mi-17IV? ask that question to yourself and then you'll see how the Dhruv doesn't fit the role of a Presidential helicopter for India. If you want to argue that the AW-101 is too expensive or that it increases costs, requires a few pilots to be dedicated to that role, then use the Mi-17IV as the helicopter you'd support. A President doesn't travel alone or with just a few people alongwith them. They have security, ministers, aides and require a larger helicopter for that role. Just because the Ecuadorian President will travel in a Dhruv doesn't mean that the Indian President's requirements are the same. just try and understand that instead of all this rona dhona over the AW-101. what the others are trying to say here is that you can't shoe-horn a Dhruv into the Presidential helicopter role just because its indigenous. If it was in the same weight/size class as the Mi-8 or AW-101 then the IAF would've acquired them only.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Feb 2010 13:41

just for comparison's sake,
> AW101 payload capability is same as dhruv's max T/O weight. in other words, AW101 can carry the equivalent of a fully loaded dhruv.
> it is powered by three turboshaft engines to dhruv's two, and each of the 3 engines produces as much power as both of dhruv's engines combined.

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 11 Feb 2010 14:39

Boeing Teams With Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for P-8I Weapons Bay Doors ... more details on ndtv.com/vishnu

Do join the page.

Cheers
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
NDTV

Natt · Post by **Natt** » 11 Feb 2010 15:21

Dont get me wrong, I wanna see my president in full ishtyle. The basis of my discussion started as the logistics which will go into supporting a single unit..it took another course along the way, anyhow, I rest my case. Merlin it is.
Waiting for the LCH.. some good news about Indian Military Aviation

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 11 Feb 2010 16:06

Well if Ecuador president can use Dhruv, whats the problem in using it for VIP transport in India. unless you are carrying a large delegation,or a bunch of reporters along with you.and actual we should not compare dhruv to AW101 but we can compare the purpose of use.

And take my word this will be used just not only by president and prime minister but

After several objections from the Finance Ministry on the price issue, the government on Wednesday cleared the purchase of 12 VVIP helicopters that would be used by the Prime Minister, President and other senior government functionaries.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 11 Feb 2010 16:18

[quote="narayana"]we should not compare dhruv to AW101 but we can compare the purpose of use.

quote]

Going by that logic, we should also use ATR or bombardier or in future NAL RTA. There is no need for BBJ....

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 11 Feb 2010 16:24

Not interested in argument,but comparing RTA to a helicopter seems silly,the point here is misuse
i would just quote a example

A team comprising seven officials has gone to Brazil for two weeks to study its power distribution and transmission system as it is considered one of the best in the world. The system will then be followed in Gurgaon and Faridabad," said Dharampal Dhull, chief communication officer, DHBVN.

Incidentally, the timing of DHBVN's tour happens to overlap with the famous Rio carnival, which starts from February 12.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Feb 2010 17:18

12 is a bit obscene. 6 would have been more than enough for Presi, PM and HM.

but I guess no compromises for 'top leaders' - they can and will use convoy of 4-5 helis to carry a large retinue of servants and guards.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 11 Feb 2010 17:44

Its seems to be more of status Symbol to Babus ,President obama has it so will be our PM

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Feb 2010 17:52

Natt wrote:
shiv wrote:Folks - the Agusta-Westland has facilities for a galley and toilet and can fly for something like 6 hours I think. The Dhruv was never designed to meet those requirements.
The VIP layout designed by DC does have a toilet though. Dhruv at cruising speed can go for about 3.5 hours whereas AW 101 doesnt go more than 5 hours at the most.

In a lighter vein, when a Dhruv was ordered for a north Indian heavy weight politico of some state, a toilet was designed for it.

For a lark, some enterprising youngsters in HAL had worked out a modification for an Indian style toilet complete with lota and lota holder in keeping with the rustic image of the intended beneficiary. Right down to detailed drawings and design details!!

As I remember, a standard railway type stainless steel Indian style commode was used in the design but to save weight, the gauge of steel specified was much thinner.

I am quite sure that this modification is still floating around in Helicopter Div albeit underground.

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 11 Feb 2010 18:18

Why 12 AW-101 choppers??

Simple... Security manuals dictate that even though the choppers have all kinds of self-protection, the PM/Prez flight is always three identical choppers which keep intermixing their positions. So any potential threat doesn't know which chopper the VIP target is on. This rule applies even to the armored cars in a motorcade.

So that implies for 3 choppers you need three choppers as reserve. Yes, you will account for three simultaneous breakdowns. Either the fleet will be divided 6 PM and 6 Prez or 6 PM/Prez and the six others operate as (1+1) * 3 for others.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Feb 2010 19:35

more tidbits
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS ... 836077.cms
via
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_AW101

The AW-101 helicopters were pitted against the American Sikorsky's S-92 Superhawks during field trials held last year, overseen by both IAF and SPG. The AW-101, which can carry around 40 combat troops but will ferry 10 passengers in the VVIP configuration, and has three engines for better power and safety, was found more suitable.

One particular SPG requirement was that the helicopters have "a high tail boom'' since it would allow the VVIP cars to come right next to the rear exit staircase and not "expose'' the protected persons to a threat from anyone in the vicinity.

Moreover, the AW-101 was found to be a rugged helicopter, with crashworthy and damage-tolerant features, capable of hovering even in winds over 80 kmph. "We also wanted a helicopter with a service-ceiling of over 4.5 km and capable of operating at night,'' said an official.

It has a cabin height of 183 M versus 1.45 or so on the Dhruv.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 11 Feb 2010 21:34

Its so funny, we have objections to the tanker deal which is urgently required.

we have 6 embrarers for the VVIP's and we also had the problem of the cost of heli's but still cleared them.

what a joke???India is more becoming a joke to me now a days we are investing more in useless things rather than making the lives of a slodier easier.

I hope evey one agrees with me in this regard.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 11 Feb 2010 22:06

Singha wrote:12 is a bit obscene. 6 would have been more than enough for Presi, PM and HM.

Just for comparison, the US wanted a fleet of 28 for its next Marine One

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Feb 2010 22:21

pkudva wrote:what a joke???India is more becoming a joke to me now a days we are investing more in useless things rather than making the lives of a slodier easier. I hope evey one agrees with me in this regard.

I agree, that is why I'd vote for 1500 Arjuns-Mk2 for our soldiers./OT.

Fani_A · Post by **Fani_A** » 11 Feb 2010 22:34

except for PM, President and top level Defence Forces commanders, for obvious reasons, no other is worth protecting. such waste of money. for such incompetent people. these public servants should travel by train in general class just like most public does.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 11 Feb 2010 23:26

Now i am more worried about the Budget hope we get sufficient hike this time also.
But the intresting point will how much capital expenditure have we utilsed in the last years budget. Our MOD should not waste time in finalising deals.

VVIP deal is now seale and now we cannot do anything, atleast hope other delas are finalised. I still belive some important delas may also have been cleared and jjust for the news media might highlite sayingonly VVIP deal has been cleared in the CCS Meet.

I thought Mr Mukherjee was a good minister as he himself was a RM.

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 11 Feb 2010 23:40

pkudva wrote:Its so funny, we have objections to the tanker deal which is urgently required.

we have 6 embrarers for the VVIP's and we also had the problem of the cost of heli's but still cleared them.

what a joke???India is more becoming a joke to me now a days we are investing more in useless things rather than making the lives of a slodier easier.

I hope evey one agrees with me in this regard.

Our Rising gandhi will use one and one will be used for carrying his chappal by a cabinet level minister.

They dont have money to buy a decent heavy lifter and guns for troops but will spend thousands on choppers.

Natt · Post by **Natt** » 11 Feb 2010 23:41

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Singha wrote:12 is a bit obscene. 6 would have been more than enough for Presi, PM and HM.
Just for comparison, the US wanted a fleet of 28 for its next Marine One

US Marines have shelved the plan to buy more AW 101s. They are NOT buying any more.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 12 Feb 2010 00:01

gentlemen, what ever our arguments and gripes, let's face it... we are stuck with this new helicopter, like our netas... so let's try to make the best of it... now is it possible to convert one or two of these heli's into EW role in short notices... sorry if it seems too noobie... at least they can be of a more "decent" use this way...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Feb 2010 00:04

well.. don't say that.. what if there was a big middle agent involved in it? we would never know how cbi files are handled and which politician controls what.

the very same babooze canceled many contracts owing to various scam and corruption. why not this hyped up vvip deal?

we can always cancel this deal. we have done for even more important stuffs [for example airbus re-fuelers, that our mil folks wanted it badly].

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 12 Feb 2010 00:16

Natt wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:Just for comparison, the US wanted a fleet of 28 for its next Marine One
US Marines have shelved the plan to buy more AW 101s. They are NOT buying any more.

Yes, I said 'wanted', past tense.

And while the current program is dead, it will most certainly be resurrected at some point, and probably with the same numbers

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Feb 2010 15:48

1. The VIP choppers are parked at the Safdarjang airport, a walking distance from the PM's residence.

They fly between here and Palam, where the ARC is based.

The agusta westlands will most likely be based in Safdarjang.

2. The Dhruv is inadequate for carrying VIPs because of its small cabin size.
On comparing the two,
Dhruv : AW-101
1. Engines- 2 : 3
2. MTOW- 5.5tons : 15.5 tons
3. Security features and comms equipment: on the westland these will possibly be like the Boeing business jet of the ARC, factory fitted jamming and protection equipment, in addition to ample space for secure communication.
On the dhruv, there is space for 4 -5 passengers in the VIP config onlee, the westland can carry about a dozen.
4. The westland is exorbitantly priced, which is why ombaba has delayed the acquisition for marine one in massa land, saying that the US president will also tighten the belt if the rest of the nation is going through a financial crises.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 12 Feb 2010 18:40

India demands $10 million from British military firm

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 12 Feb 2010 19:08

Boeing in $4.5 mn deal with HAL for P-8I weapons bay doors

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 12 Feb 2010 20:35

Livefist update - HAL calling foriegn Turboshaft engine manufacturers for its LOH programme

They could have worked on a mini shakthi version for this.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Feb 2010 20:41

Venu-> given or experience with kaveri, nobody is taking any risks on us developing Jet engines

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 12 Feb 2010 20:53

Shakti engine weights 205kgs according to wiki, they could have reduced the weight without much problem since they have to get rid of only 5kgs. I don't know if the Shakti meets other requirements like FADEC but considering that its base version(Turbomeca TM 333) has this system the shakti must have it too. I don't see any reason why they are looking for new engines.

Natt · Post by **Natt** » 12 Feb 2010 21:19

Gagan wrote:1. The VIP choppers are parked at the Safdarjang airport, a walking distance from the PM's residence.

They fly between here and Palam, where the ARC is based.

The agusta westlands will most likely be based in Safdarjang.

2. The Dhruv is inadequate for carrying VIPs because of its small cabin size.
On comparing the two,
Dhruv : AW-101
1. Engines- 2 : 3
2. MTOW- 5.5tons : 15.5 tons
3. Security features and comms equipment: on the westland these will possibly be like the Boeing business jet of the ARC, factory fitted jamming and protection equipment, in addition to ample space for secure communication.
On the dhruv, there is space for 4 -5 passengers in the VIP config onlee, the westland can carry about a dozen.
4. The westland is exorbitantly priced, which is why ombaba has delayed the acquisition for marine one in massa land, saying that the US president will also tighten the belt if the rest of the nation is going through a financial crises.

Just a few clarifications,
Comm Squad comes under IAF not ARC. Its choppers are NEVER Parked at safdarjang. This is due to security reasons. They use the airport once in a while to embark/disembark VIP passengers. The organizations using safdarjang as permanent base are Pawan Hans and BSF and private operators as and when required.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 13 Feb 2010 01:51

CAE's Bell 412 helicopter simulator being shipped to India

12 Feb 2010 8ak/CAE PR: CAE and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) announced on the eve of the Rotary Wing Society of India's Heli-Power conference, that their joint venture company - the Helicopter Academy to Train by Simulation of Flying (HATSOFF) - was progressing on-schedule for the opening in mid-2010 of India's first Level D helicopter simulator training facility.

The CAE-built full-mission helicopter simulator for HATSOFF is currently en route to India following the completion of manufacturing and in-plant acceptance at CAE's facility in Montreal, Canada. The simulator is scheduled to arrive in Bangalore later this month to begin installation at the new HATSOFF helicopter training centre. The first cockpit for the simulator represents the Bell 412 helicopter, and is scheduled to be ready-for-training this summer.

"We are excited about the creation of this new training centre that will serve the needs of helicopter operators in India," said Wing Commander (Retd) Chandra Dat Upadhyay, Chief Executive Officer of HATSOFF. "Simulation-based training is one of the best approaches for improving safety and operational efficiency, and the HATSOFF training centre will play a key role in producing skilled and mission-ready helicopter aircrews."

The CAE-built full-mission simulator en route to India features CAE's revolutionary roll-on/roll-off cockpit design, which enables cockpits representing various helicopter types to be used in the simulator. Beginning this summer, HATSOFF will offer comprehensive training to operators of the Bell 412 helicopter. Additional cockpits for the Indian Army/Air Force variant of the HAL-built Dhruv, the civil variant of the Dhruv, and the Eurocopter Dauphin will be added over the next year.

The training centre will feature multimedia classrooms, computer-based training, brief/debrief facilities, and a training management information system. The CAE-built full-mission simulator for HATSOFF will feature a common motion system, vibration platform, and visual display system, and the four separate cockpit modules that can be used in the full-mission simulator. When a cockpit is not used in the full-mission simulator, it will be used as a fixed-based flight training device (FTD). The simulator will be certified to European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and Indian DGCA Level D, the highest qualification for flight simulators.

In Mar 2009 we covered HAL-CAE's announcement of the $60m JV and in Aug 2009 we covered CAE's contract to supply C130-J simulatorsto the IAF.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 13 Feb 2010 12:19

Tests for LCH in Bangalore
http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... zZRCAUTQ==

LCH to take first flight test very soon
http://www.ptinews.com/news/513986_LCH- ... -very-soon

LCH to take first test flight by month-end
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100213/main6.htm

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 13 Feb 2010 12:29

Natt wrote:Comm Squad comes under IAF not ARC. Its choppers are NEVER Parked at safdarjang. This is due to security reasons. They use the airport once in a while to embark/disembark VIP passengers. The organizations using safdarjang as permanent base are Pawan Hans and BSF and private operators as and when required.

IAF helicopters are indeed parked at Safdarjung - you can check Google Earth. This decision was taken a 4-5 years back.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 13 Feb 2010 20:33

LCH to take first test flight by month-end

From that link:

The HAL has also carried out modifications on some variants of its Dhruv chopper for anti-Naxalite operations with suggestions from paramilitary forces involved in anti-Naxal operations.

Interesting. Anyone know the nature of these modifications?

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 13 Feb 2010 21:23

Unless things have changed recently, there is no IAF detachment at Safdarjung. The Mi-17 based there belong to the BSF.

Also the ARC ramp at IGI is literally miles away from the Comm Sqn/VIP ramp and the two should not be confused.

Natt · Post by **Natt** » 14 Feb 2010 03:50

There has been no change, IAF never parks its choppers at safdarjang. BSF has its Mi 17s parked there. It has one hanger. Pawan Hans has one hanger with some old Bells which havnt flown in 10 years. Except for that there are no parking spaces.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 Feb 2010 05:00

Natt wrote:There has been no change, IAF never parks its choppers at safdarjang. BSF has its Mi 17s parked there. It has one hanger. Pawan Hans has one hanger with some old Bells which havnt flown in 10 years. Except for that there are no parking spaces.

Why has the BSF stationed Mi-17s in Safdarjang?

All the 2-3 Mi-17s are grey coloured, while BSF Mi-17s have a red/sand colour scheme.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 14 Feb 2010 05:10

Aditya G wrote:
Natt wrote:There has been no change, IAF never parks its choppers at safdarjang. BSF has its Mi 17s parked there. It has one hanger. Pawan Hans has one hanger with some old Bells which havnt flown in 10 years. Except for that there are no parking spaces.

All the 2-3 Mi-17s are grey coloured, while BSF Mi-17s have a red/sand colour scheme.

Not any more, they are back to the IAF grey scheme - with IAF Roundels. No more Red/sand/psychedelic camo.