Indian Naval Discussion

[Samay]

Ooops the dialogue is digressing from Brahmos to brahma n brahmins (India)

Narayan narayan!

Cruise-missiles always change their paths ,for well known reasons

[ankit-s]

According to declassified documents, Nixon Kiss-inger combo conversation and other perusable material, there was no military actionable plan to take India head on. It was just an act of dadagiri vs gandhigiri (India) because Indian security agreement with erstwhile USSR was standing tall along with Indian resolve spearheaded by madam Indira Gandhi - a true patriot (without a foreign passport) unlike Sonia........

I dont want to comment on IG and her balls thats a matter of research extracting truth out of myths made during war on both sides ,,
but I dont believe in the 'declassified' documents of usa .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declassification
http://www.archives.gov/isoo/speeches-a ... ation.html
http://ucblibraries.colorado.edu/govpub ... sified.htm

I have already lost my eyesight on these matters - now its yr turn to sink yr eyeballs into this...

[ankit-s]

Ooops the dialogue is digressing from Brahmos to brahma n brahmins (India)

Narayan narayan!

Cruise-missiles always change their paths ,for well known reasons

They r not vulnerable to admins and admonishings - simple!

[Nihat]

India's new Fleet tanker launched in Italy. Pics at livefist link given below

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/02/ph ... anker.html

[ankit-s]

India's new Fleet tanker launched in Italy. Pics at livefist link given below

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/02/ph ... anker.html

Look at those grotesque welding joints!

What u get outside is what u get inside in this case.

Shame on Fincanti, India gets short changed.

Shoddy job now shabby stuff 2morrow!

[nikhil_p]

India's new Fleet tanker launched in Italy. Pics at livefist link given below

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/02/ph ... anker.html

Look at those grotesque welding joints!

What u get outside is what u get inside in this case.

Shame on Fincanti, India gets short changed.

Shoddy job now shabby stuff 2morrow!

The ship is LAUNCHED...not commissioned. There is a big difference. Lets see the pics when she is commissioned. Whenever welds are done, they are done this way (yes sir)...and then they are polished down (and this applies to almost any welding which is done).

[ankit-s]

The ship is LAUNCHED...not commissioned. There is a big difference. Lets see the pics when she is commissioned. Whenever welds are done, they are done this way (yes sir)..

Did U see such a difference when Visby corvette was launched ?

A simple question!

[Brando]

Did U see such a difference when Visby corvette was launched ?

A simple question!

The difference here being that this is a tanker ( a low priority supply vessel! ) while the Visby is a front line stealth corvette whose hull is made from a composite of PVC and carbon fiber sandwiched together! The comparison is apples to oranges. Also, all arc-welds have beads to some degree and this was build the traditional way with a LOT of welding. These contracts are always lowest bidder, so you can't expect much better, be it Indian or Italian docks. With adequate paint and coating and wear, these will be virtually indistinguishable. Check out USN tankers, they are pretty much in the same state.

[nikhil_p]

The ship is LAUNCHED...not commissioned. There is a big difference. Lets see the pics when she is commissioned. Whenever welds are done, they are done this way (yes sir)..

Did U see such a difference when Visby corvette was launched ?

A simple question!

The Visby was not a pure metal ship. Having said that, check out these pics when the USS Nimitz was launched...
http://www-tc.pbs.org/weta/carrier/asse ... _large.jpg

You can clearly see the weld lines.
Also the ship is not considered a capital ship and is comparable to most tankers across the world and is manufactured in a general shipyard.

[ankit-s]

Did U see such a difference when Visby corvette was launched ?

A simple question!

The difference here being that this is a tanker ( a low priority supply vessel! ) while the Visby is a front line stealth corvette whose hull is made from a composite of PVC and carbon fiber sandwiched together! The comparison is apples to oranges. Also, all arc-welds have beads to some degree and this was build the traditional way with a LOT of welding. These contracts are always lowest bidder, so you can't expect much better, be it Indian or Italian docks. With adequate paint and coating and wear, these will be virtually indistinguishable. Check out USN tankers, they are pretty much in the same state.

Show me ANY such naval Item from sweden please (leave Visby) - sweden never compromises on quality, it depends on countries who want to preserve thier business on quality control. Look at kockums VLCC construction, it is certified for welding according to EN 15085. And they are European standards, means every european company complies within europe that is, but they cheat when it comes to India. Every country should follow higher international standards for the benefit of thier own future business if not for recipient countries - repeat orders is the name of the game! If they dont, thats where we have problems because they do it selectevely, where they can get away.

Company like BAE did cheat India and we r in the process of demanding 10 million dollars, Tarapor fuel disruption by USA, T-90 TOT problems - Brahmos TOT problems - Gorkashov price blackmail, and many more - India is treated as black sheep, nothing new.

Welding joints are just peanuts here, I am sure you know what i am talking abt in a broad context......

[ankit-s]

The ship is LAUNCHED...not commissioned. There is a big difference. Lets see the pics when she is commissioned. Whenever welds are done, they are done this way (yes sir)..

Did U see such a difference when Visby corvette was launched ?

A simple question!

The Visby was not a pure metal ship. Having said that, check out these pics when the USS Nimitz was launched...
http://www-tc.pbs.org/weta/carrier/asse ... _large.jpg

You can clearly see the weld lines.
Also the ship is not considered a capital ship and is comparable to most tankers across the world and is manufactured in a general shipyard.

The keel of Nimitz was laid down in 1968 - 40 years of technological standard gap left behind. we have graduated to higher standards now!

[Craig Alpert]

India's Look East Policy - A Review

[Brando]

Show me ANY such naval Item from sweden please (leave Visby) - sweden never compromises on quality, it depends on countries who want to preserve thier business on quality control. Look at kockums VLCC construction, it is certified for welding according to EN 15085. And they are European standards, means every european company complies within europe that is, but they cheat when it comes to India.

Take a look at this : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... skrona.jpg
and this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Harbor.jpg

The Carlskrona is a mine layer and one of the largest ships in the Swedish Navy. You can clearly see the weld lines in both pictures. So your point about Sweden is moot. I can show you numerous European ships that are exactly the same.

Every country should follow higher international standards for the benefit of thier own future business if not for recipient countries - repeat orders is the name of the game! If they dont, thats where we have problems because they do it selectevely, where they can get away.

Company like BAE did cheat India and we r in the process of demanding 10 million dollars, Tarapor fuel disruption by USA, T-90 TOT problems - Brahmos TOT problems - Gorkashov price blackmail, and many more - India is treated as black sheep, nothing new.

You have yet to prove that the Italians have in any way "cheated" the Indian navy with their construction. Failing that everything else you've said is irrelevant to the discussion. The Fleet tanker was not in fact build shoddy as you want us to believe merely because you could see the weld beads clearly in a close-up of the hull.

The above examples of BAE, Tarapore and Bramhos etc cannot be exactly called "cheating". "Cheating" is too strong a term to use. But those cases are valid examples of contracts not being executed as was expected. However, such is the case with military contracts. Almost every country in the world suffers from similar problems in defense procurement and defense contracts.

[ankit-s]

The Carlskrona is a mine layer and one of the largest ships in the Swedish Navy.


And this ship is 3 decades old which was meant to be for Swedish Navy - why should we be questioning 30 years old standards no more in practice. Italy is bound by European standard where they willfully neglected to adhere to required practice - just make few quick bucks at the expense of India, knowing it can get away. My gally welding joints almost protruding one inch from the hull. Even Italian navy wont accept such a ship (European welding standard not maintained), they would be told to re-do job as per specifications. Period.

This is a big ship, you can not sell a shoddy spark plug in Europe.

Cheating is to act dishonestly or mislead!

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cheating



India demands $10 million from British military firm

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_in ... rm_1345719

Vikramdatya blackmailing is very transparent despite contract signing India did cough up billion plus more.......for what?

On T-90 tank.
QUOTE:
Under a $795 million dollar agreement inked in February 2001, Russia shipped 124 T-90 tanks to India off the shelf. Another 186 were to be supplied in semi-knocked-down condition for assembly in Avadi-based Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai.

In a follow up TOT agreement signed in 2006, Russia agreed to transfer technology for the license production of 1,000 additional tanks in India through 2020.

However, Russia pussyfooted on the TOT part of the agreement and production never started, forcing India to resort to the outright purchase of an additional 330 tanks in November 2007 to cover a gap in its military capabilities.

In a nut shell Indians are railroaded, and it is a well known fact among defense circles of India...........

[Gerard]

I'm not sure I understand your point.

These four photos, the first is a frigate commissioned in the 80s, the second a destroyer commissioned in 2005, the third is an amphibious landing ship commissioned in 1995 and the fourth another LPD commissioned in 2009, show weld lines. These are USN vessels.

http://www.navybook.com/nohigherhonor/art/servant3.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ose_up.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... SD-49).jpg
http://tinyurl.com/yewp8jm
http://ongofu.files.wordpress.com/2008/ ... york-1.jpg

[tejas]

^^^^^ Yeah but at least we got a tank that in every way is inferior to the Arjun.

[ankit-s]

I'm not sure I understand your point.

These four photos, the first is a frigate commissioned in the 80s, the second a destroyer commissioned in 2005, the third is an amphibious landing ship commissioned in 1995 and the fourth another LPD commissioned in 2009, show weld lines. These are USN vessels.

http://www.navybook.com/nohigherhonor/art/servant3.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ose_up.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... SD-49).jpg
http://tinyurl.com/yewp8jm
http://ongofu.files.wordpress.com/2008/ ... york-1.jpg

Look at this photo of the welding job done as under and compare it with your 2009 USN and see the difference (also note the one inch plate shoddy patch job up close) All they need is to grind the raised weld beads and make it look like a quasi seamless finish. But its a laborious job and they skipped it.

http://tinyurl.com/ya6tlac

[jaladipc]

lol....... are we talking about Italians here?
Better not to waste your energy. They rank right after french in terms of greediness.No wonder they saved those few extra bucks from finishing.
If an Indian shipyard was in same situation,I bet 90% of BRF members will haste to jump on criticizing.
IN paid 30 million for IAC consultancy

[sunilUpa]

Show me ANY such naval Item from sweden please (leave Visby) - sweden never compromises on quality, it depends on countries who want to preserve thier business on quality control. Look at kockums VLCC construction, it is certified for welding according to EN 15085. And they are European standards, means every european company complies within europe that is, but they cheat when it comes to India. Every country should follow higher international standards for the benefit of thier own future business if not for recipient countries - repeat orders is the name of the game! If they dont, thats where we have problems because they do it selectevely, where they can get away.

Company like BAE did cheat India and we r in the process of demanding 10 million dollars, Tarapor fuel disruption by USA, T-90 TOT problems - Brahmos TOT problems - Gorkashov price blackmail, and many more - India is treated as black sheep, nothing new.

Welding joints are just peanuts here, I am sure you know what i am talking abt in a broad context......

Yaaawan..

Welding of Collins
During assembly of Collins’ bow section in Sweden, multiple defects in the hull welding were discovered.[77] Different reasons were given by different parties for the problems: the steel alloy used for the hull required different welding techniques to those normally used by Kockums; the Swedish navy always requested partial penetration welds for their submarines, while the RAN wanted full penetration welding, but had not made this clear; delays in delivering the steel plates to Kockums resulted in rushed work and a resulting drop in quality.[77] Kockums engineers proposed that the section be kept in Sweden for repairs, but to minimise delays it was accepted as-is, with repairs attempted at ASC during full assembly of the first boat.[77]

However, when Collins returned to the ASC facility in April 2001 for a year-long maintenance docking, multiple welding defects were found in the bow and escape tower sections of the submarine (the two sections constructed by Kockums), while almost no problems were found in the welding of the four Australian-built sections.[78] Repairing these welds quadrupled the time Collins spent in dock.[79]

[edit] Noise signature
The noise made by the submarines, which compromised their ability to stay hidden, was another major problem with the design.[80] In the original requisition, the RAN guidelines for the noise signature of the new submarines were vague; for example, asking that they be "twice as quiet" as the Oberons.[81] Expectations and operational requirements also changed between the 1987 contract signing and when the submarines began operating in the late 1990s.[82] The major element of the noise signature for the Oberon class was machinery noise transmitted through the hull; this was successfully avoided during construction of the Collins class by mounting machinery on platforms isolated from the hull.[81]

Noise testing during 1996 and 1997 found that the hydrodynamic noise signature—the noise made by a submarine passing through the water—was excessive, particularly at high speed.[83] The shape of the hull was the main cause: although a scale model of the design had been tested during the funded study and was found to have a minimal signature, the hull shape was changed after the contract was signed, primarily by a 2-metre (6.6 ft) lengthening of the submarine and a redesign of the bow dome to accommodate the larger-than-expected main sonar and reduce its blind spot (the baffles).[84] The design had not been retested, as who would pay for this could not be agreed on.[80] Propeller cavitation, caused by water flow over control surfaces onto the propeller at certain speeds was the other main noisemaker.[85] Cavitation had not been a problem with earlier Swedish submarine designs or during early testing of the Type 471 design, but the propeller had to be redesigned late in the process to provide more power, and like the redesigned hull, was not retested.[86] Subsequent studies by the Defence Science and Technology Organisation showed that the submarine's hull shape, particularly the redesigned sonar dome, the fin, and the rear of the submarine, focused the displaced water into two turbulent streams; when the seven propeller blades hit these streams, the propeller's vibration was increased, causing cavitation.[87] These problems was fixed by modifying the casing of the submarine with fibreglass fairings.[88]

You can read the rest of the sorry tale on WIki

Please...don't mention Sweden and quality infront of any RAN personnel...you may not survive the enclounter.

Now, coming back to the actual news about the launch of tanker, it is scheduled to be delivered this year and Navy has exercised the option for second tanker..Good decision Navy!

First Fleet Tanker For Indian Navy Launched At Muggiano

The partnership has been successful as the Indian Navy has exercised its option (provided under the original contract) and ordered a second sister fleet tanker, which is under construction at Fincantieri’s Sestri Ponente (Genoa) shipyard for delivery in late 2011.

[ankit-s]

Talking about collins and RAN, the bottom of the barrel, as you can see in the following text as furnished by you:

Different reasons were given by different parties for the problems: the steel alloy used for the hull required different welding techniques to those normally used by Kockums; the Swedish navy always requested partial penetration welds for their submarines, while the RAN wanted full penetration welding, but had not made this clear; delays in delivering the steel plates to Kockums resulted in rushed work and a resulting drop in quality

However in the case of Tanker, the job could have been done better with a touch up, which they failed, the situation here was not as intricate as in collins-RAN case. Thats all I am saying without mincing any words.

And if I say, as I always do, that India is always short changed on all these defense deals and it is a well documented fact, then what was wrong?

But again there are nitpickers.....

[geeth]

>>>Look at those grotesque welding joints!
>>>What u get outside is what u get inside in this case.
>>>Shame on Fincanti, India gets short changed.
>>>Shoddy job now shabby stuff 2morrow!

Boss, arc welded joints are like that onlee...and nobody grinds it to make it look better - not only that it is not necessary, but is detrimental to the strength of welded joint - something like applying powder on the butt of your girl friend!

And when plates (even thick ones) are welded to the frames inside, there will be a wavy appearance - it is unavoidable, whether in India or abroad. It happens because, while welding, there is stress/strain on various metal parts due to the sudden rise and fall of temperature.

[Pratik_S]

INS Shivalik
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... g_shot.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Imag ... alik01.jpg

A lot smoother and cleaner finish and I could see only a few vertical joints but they are lot cleaner.

Zulfiquar Class
http://img1.gtimg.com/news/pics/20926/20926825.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... fiquar.jpg

Not as clean as the Shivalik but the Chinese have built a better vessel than the Italians, thinner weld joint could be seen and loads of dents could be seen in the first image.

[jaladipc]

USN Logistics ship launched
http://www.msc.navy.mil/N00P/Pressrel/g ... 23B-09.jpg

IN replenishment ship launched
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 772479.jpg

One can notice the hell lot of difference.

May be the Indians suffering with firangophobia need some treatment,then they will see how the local private players honor the contracts unlike foreign players.

[John]

May be the Indians suffering with firangophobia need some treatment,then they will see how the local private players honor the contracts unlike foreign players.

Things aren't any better with Private SYs the OPVs Hindustan SY is building for CG are way behind schedule and nearly capsized during trials. Besides the only private SY that can build vessels that size is Cochin and it is operating close to full capacity so will have to turn to gov SYs.

[Sarcasm] And we all know how MDL,GRSE build vessels on time and on budget. There is reason why we have to turn to foreign SYs for our vessels take a look Shivalik it has been in construction for close to 10 years and cost swollen to close to 600 million each. In other hand Yantar which started construction of Teg in mid 2007 will beat out both Satpura (early 2002) and Sahyadri to commissioning and i am not going to get into P-28s which have not even been launched.

[Sagar G]

[Sarcasm] Yes we all know how MDL,GRSE build vessels on time and on budget. There is reason why we have to turn to foreign SYs for our vessels take a look Shivalik it has been in construction for close to 10 years and cost swollen to close to 600 million each. In other hand Yantar which started construction of Teg in mid 2007 will beat out both Satpura (early 2002) and Sahyadri to commissioning and i am not going to get into P-28s which have not even been launched.

You are being too harsh on Indian SY's, Shivalik is a new design and this is the first time that any of the sy's here are making stealth frigates so it's obvious that some delay is going to take place and also delays have been seen in foreign sy's too it's not an Indian sy specific phenomena.

The advantages of indigenisation outweigh the delay in construction.

[jaladipc]

Things aren't any better with Private SYs the OPVs Hindustan SY is building for CG are way behind schedule and nearly capsized during trials. Besides the only private SY that can build vessels that size is Cochin and it is operating close to full capacity so will have to turn to gov SYs.

Hindustan SY became private?? when?
I think you were confused between private and public yards.

[Sarcasm] And we all know how MDL,GRSE build vessels on time and on budget. There is reason why we have to turn to foreign SYs for our vessels take a look Shivalik it has been in construction for close to 10 years and cost swollen to close to 600 million each. In other hand Yantar which started construction of Teg in mid 2007 will beat out both Satpura (early 2002) and Sahyadri to commissioning and i am not going to get into P-28s which have not even been launched.

I was talking about PRIVATE YARDS,not public ones which always lack proper management and implementation.

Here MOD is showing protectionism for his own yards and is confronting the private players .MOD is showing dual standards.
Indian Private yards are not that backward or lack technology to build few replenishment vessels when they were building pretty good tankers and OPVs,.......

MOD is reluctant to offer the private players any huge contracts and the ships that needs weapon installations.
Antony himself once said that currently we are not looking for the private yards to build weaponised ships
And now,when the non-weaponised things came up.....he prefers foreign yards and wants to boast about indigenous building capability. Even the construction work on this particular ship is the lamest compared to indian yards with far less experience in building.

May be you might have been forgot that the so called delays and stuff have been only experienced with public yards.An utterly mismanagement os Scorpene deal is a pretty good example.Public yards not only lack management that look after the quality and speedy construction, but also lack quality auditors and attorneys to frame contractual obligations and policies. In general, MOD is happy with whatever being harped by his own yards while makes a foul cry in the public.

the delays in shivalik and others is only due to the irresponsibility of yard management and due to their love with foreign components.Mazagoan has to wait for the shafts to come from russia.It has to wait for the turbines to come from US,it has to wait for the electronics that comes from thales,...............

When local private companies makes most of the needed components,these yards were reluctant to drag them in.Only reason is? to fill their coffins with gandhis.

[gogna]

we should look under our own bed first. Our own yard are much worse than this, seen it so many time. just look at car nicobar class, great work and finish by GRSE.

Look at captains chair, fell sorry for the guy

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/08/ ... class.html
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/08/ ... lding.html

[ankit-s]

>>>Look at those grotesque welding joints!
>>>What u get outside is what u get inside in this case.
>>>Shame on Fincanti, India gets short changed.
>>>Shoddy job now shabby stuff 2morrow!

Boss, arc welded joints are like that onlee...and nobody grinds it to make it look better - not only that it is not necessary, but is detrimental to the strength of welded joint - something like applying powder on the butt of your girl friend!

And when plates (even thick ones) are welded to the frames inside, there will be a wavy appearance - it is unavoidable, whether in India or abroad. It happens because, while welding, there is stress/strain on various metal parts due to the sudden rise and fall of temperature.

Aha.....Ever heard of decade old stud arc weld technology?

The invention uses stud arc welding to create permanently visible hull marine indicia as a cost effective alternative to weld beads for better visibility of a hull........

Portable stud welding machines are available. Welders can also be automated, with controls for arcing and applying pressure. Stud welding is very versatile. Typical applications include automobile bodies, electrical panels, shipbuilding and building construction. Shipbuilding is one of the oldest uses of stud welding. Stud welding revolutionized the shipbuilding industry. All other manufacturing industries can also use stud welding for a variety of purposes.

For a change look at this smooth n silky hull of a submarine and brood about your welding tech perception......If submarines CAN BE welded smooth why not ship hulls my friend ?

http://tinyurl.com/y8w5zoy

Then there is this option:

Electron beam technologies have unique characteristics that make them suited to a variety of applications in the construction and general engineering sectors. EB welding has the capability to make high integrity welds in thick section materials with low distortion; this makes it attractive for the manufacture of a range of specialist products. Other EB processing technologies have their own desirable characteristics.

The range of materials that may be EB welded and processed in this industry is vast; from the specialist high strength alloy steels, through copper alloys, bronzes, aluminium alloys, nickel alloys, stainless steels, to maraging steels and titanium alloys.

[jaladipc]

any one know how much MOD paid for these ships?

[ankit-s]

we should look under our own bed first. Our own yard are much worse than this, seen it so many time. just look at car nicobar class, great work and finish by GRSE.

Look at captains chair, fell sorry for the guy

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/08/ ... class.html
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/08/ ... lding.html

I guess this is wrong argument here, for we have ordered a ship from a OECD nation, which is advanced country and a member of EU, which adheres to European standards, and supposed to deliver the best product to its International custumors.

On the other hand what we do in our own developing country with limited tech n resources is our own bsns.

Bad business ethics coupled with dishonesty involved as they (Italians) know they can get away and still come back for more business with India with babudom ethics, mama banja inductions (nepotism) in our PMO. Its pathetic in my own country!

Let me cry silently in the corner!

[John]

Hindustan SY became private?? when?
I think you were confused between private and public yards.

Sorry confused ABG with HSL anyway ABG our largest private SY has run into delays with its construction of PCV for CG. Yes IN should move more work to private SYs and privatize government owned shipyard but that will not happen over night so we will have to turn to foreign SYs as stop gap measure.

any one know how much MOD paid for these ships?

514 crore for 10 vessels.

[Philip]

HMS Sheffield was on radar picket duty and that is a study in itself.I wonder waht self-defence aids the newly launched Italian built fleet tanker will carry.

[a_kumar]

Gurus,

Would appreciate some clarification on shipbuilding aspects.

DWT and lightweight are term used for cargo carriers to show the cargo capacity and tonnage of the vessel.

When we refer to tonnage of Naval vessels (Scorpene 2,000, Arihant 6000, IAC-40,000) :
- Can that approximate to Lightweight as used in civilian vessels or is it something?
- If one has to approximate a Destroyer or submarine to a civilian vessel (eg. bulk carrier/container ship) for sake of shipbuilding infrastructure/capacity, what would it be closer to?

[nikhil_p]

Show me ANY such naval Item from sweden please (leave Visby) - sweden never compromises on quality, it depends on countries who want to preserve thier business on quality control. Look at kockums VLCC construction, it is certified for welding according to EN 15085. And they are European standards, means every european company complies within europe that is, but they cheat when it comes to India. Every country should follow higher international standards for the benefit of thier own future business if not for recipient countries - repeat orders is the name of the game! If they dont, thats where we have problems because they do it selectevely, where they can get away.

Company like BAE did cheat India and we r in the process of demanding 10 million dollars, Tarapor fuel disruption by USA, T-90 TOT problems - Brahmos TOT problems - Gorkashov price blackmail, and many more - India is treated as black sheep, nothing new.

Welding joints are just peanuts here, I am sure you know what i am talking abt in a broad context......

Exactly what is your point...just because you mention EN 15085 does not mean you get POLISHED looking weld joints. Do you even know what EN 15085 means? What are the guidelines. Ok, one question, does EN 15085 apply in its entirety to any welding that is done. How many different versions of EN 15085 are there.
The weld joints are looking raised because they were welded from outside and not inside. the reason being, the mass carried by a tanker is inside the ship, where we would have baffles to prevent sloshing of the liquid. Also, the pressure on the hull will be higher and a greater amount of FLEX will be needed. Do a simple experiment. take to paper sheets/or flexible cardboard. Tape their edges together without overlap on one side with some basic cellophane tape. Now push on the side that the tape is on. Better still put some weight on it and hold the edges with the weight pushing down (let gravity do the trick). Time it to see how long it takes to break tne bond. Now do the same experiment with the tape outside. Let me know the results.

[Rahul M]

^^ interesting explanation ! I know zilch about welding but it does sound logical to me.

ankit, I suppose you do realise you have not seen *any* exposed rivets on a sub since like the 60's ? it's all covered by anechoic tiles ?

[tsarkar]

Ankit, et al, how a ship appears visually is NOT reflective of its structural strength.

When Delhi, Kora and Aditya went to China and Korea in 2000, we were hit by a spate of typhoons, and emerged intact. Incidentally all ships in that fleet were Indian built.

The ships were running low on fuel and we conducted RAS. The band onboard Aditya’s played keeping up morale while the evolution was conducted. All this in the middle of a typhoon.

We thought it was pretty normal, but the Japanese and Koreans were dumbstruck when we arrived. They told us they never ventured out under those weather conditions.

Here’s a media report http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/oct/17spec.htm

[a_kumar]

Admins,
I couldn't find a page for Kolkatta (P15A ) class in current or future fleet lists (from main BR website). Is there a stray link somewhere not linked to main pages? Alternatively, are there any pointers to this class of vessels? TIA.

[Gagan]

Slightly off topic, wrt the launch of the fleet tanker Deepak by Fincantieri. This picture of the launch appeared on Livefist of Mrs Farida Khan, wife of the Indian ambassador 'christening' the ship.


I can see a cross, a swastika. She is in the process of writing something else.
The navy ship launches I have seen, I have been too far away to see anything more than the coconut being broken. My understanding is that the prayer is followed by writing the signs of the 4 major religions like in the army's combined temples, which cater to the 4 major religions.

Anyone know more on this? Please add to this. I would love to know more tradition.

[arun]

Xavier Marchal MD of DCNS India quoted in the Defexpo 2010 supplement carried with the Feb 16th edition of Financial Express on the Scorpene project:

"The whole pressure hull of the first submarine is now completed and all the structures are very well advanced. Construction of the second submarine started in 2008 is progressing quickly along with construction of the third and fourth submarine that already started.”

No link is available

[sandesh]

Came across this interesting piece of information from a russian guy in one of the forums that I visit:

here is in short what I have read about the new MiG-29K/KUB, hope that answers part of your questions:
1. The new K and KUB will have close to 100% identical fuselage, wings, etc.
Basicly the K will be the same in outer view as the KUB, only the back seat removed and replaced with other equipment or fuel to keep the balance of the aircraft. Reason could well be economy from development and production costs.
2. MiG-29M/M2/K/KUB and MiG-35 form a new family of aircraft with identical airframe.
3. Neither of the above will have the typical MiG-29A/C/UB air intakes on top of the fuselage and moving covers inside the intakes. These are replaced with nets, just like on the Su-27/30/33, thus saving weight and giving free space for more fuel and equipment. Considering that the K and KUB will operate mostly on board aircraft carriers, whose flight decks are always carefully swept from trash and dangerous objects, there seems to be no practical need to have the old system with moving covers and additional intakes.

Serial MiG-29K (9.41, #804) were displayed in August 2009 during Moscow MAKS. A black panther on tail (303rd INAS).


Four MiG-29K/KUBs (9.47: #671 and #672, 9.41: #804 and #???) were delivered to Indian Navy in December 2009, after a tests on "Admiral Kuznyetsov" aircraft carrier's deck, performed by #672 and #941 in September 2009.