Artillery Discussion Thread

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Feb 2010 23:04

gee I thought the wooden ram stick used in some of our older guns was so last-gen, but here
they have MKIzed it to a rubber garden hose probably filled with sand

ouch! this video took away all my cool impression of these ultra light puppies.

need to retreat back into my pzh for a coke and burger to think this over.

for places with NO MOTORABLE roads this seems to be only option to plant a
heavy shell on the enemy's head.

for places where a Stallion truck can go, a truck mounted 105mm (we have a crude
looking prototype that can be more automated) seems to be better option.
atleast some kinda motors could power the aiming and reloading can be from
ammo boxes on the truck itself.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Feb 2010 23:35

with Denel blacklisted neither the Bhim or their wheeled G6 gun is available but the Slovak republic
has a similar product on the familiar tatra 8x8 platform

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/155mm_SpGH_ZUZANA

now it ain't no Archer but looks like a reasonable and cost-effective soln to the SP gun headache.
they even have a version on T72 but wheeled looks for stable to up the barrel to 52cal. the loading
is totally automatic for 40 charges/rounds...(I think the Pzh/Bhim being a roomy turret has 70-80
rounds but cost is much more...)

or no tracked platform and the Archer on tatra should be able to struggle across the sands for
the mythical RYK attack.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 10 Feb 2010 03:54

Singha wrote:I will personally run shirtless and pantless all around the lady carmel college here if we select the PZH and order around 150.

After Adm Koshy's promise of sweets this is the next big promise ever made on BR!

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 10 Feb 2010 04:03

Aditya G wrote:
Singha wrote:I will personally run shirtless and pantless all around the lady carmel college here if we select the PZH and order around 150.
After Adm Koshy's promise of sweets this is the next big promise ever made on BR!

What if this becomes true?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 10 Feb 2010 04:30

Singha

my worry with Pzh is that weird breech closing (if is right term) in that video u posted. It seems to be a recipe to amputate someone's arm.

wonder how other SP arty stack up

Amit A · Post by **Amit A** » 10 Feb 2010 22:41

Surya wrote: my worry with Pzh is that weird breech closing (if is right term) in that video u posted. It seems to be a recipe to amputate someone's arm.

wonder how other SP arty stack up

That breech did seem very dangerous on the pzh video on future weapons, however the german soldiers had a very high rate of fire & also had MRSI. What was interesting was that they were using very small charges which were almost being inserted with one hand.
However it has a very high profile n is very heavy. So if our army thinks Arjun is too heavy then what chance does pzh have.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 10 Feb 2010 23:58

amit

wound't that be interesting if the Pzh is ever bought

I am sure they will find explanations for it

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 16 Feb 2010 04:01

BAE Expects to Start India Trial for Howitzer By Early March

NEW DELHI --BAE Systems Ltd. expects to start trials in India for its FH77 B05 towed howitzer by early March for a potential contract to sell 400 units to the Indian Army, a senior India executive said Monday.

The FH77 B05 will be manufactured and marketed in India by Defense Land Systems India, BAE's joint venture with Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd., Mark Simpkins, vice president and general manager at BAE Systems India (Services) Pvt. Ltd., told Dow Jones Newswires in an interview on the sidelines of DefExpo 2010. Mahindra & Mahindra is India's largest sports-utility vehicle manufacturer by sales.

He added that the U.K.-based defense and aerospace company also expects to start trials for the M777 ultra-light howitzer in India by the end of 2010.

Mr. Simpkins said the initial order for the M777 howitzer is likely to be for 145 units, which could increase to 1,000 units in the future.

BAE Monday also unveiled a mine protected vehicle at DefExpo 2010, which it aims to sell to armed forces. Mr. Simpkins added that the company is exploring opportunities in naval defense in India, particularly relating to design and construction of ships.

Providing details on its global strategy, Simpkins said: "We are working on a worldwide strategy called home market, which means through JVs, partnerships and acquisitions, we will do all of that in a country to manufacture products, develop and design and provide support for the armed forces of that country."

He added the ultimate aim of BAE is to also export defense products from its "home markets".

BAE's current home markets are the U.K., the U.S., Australia, Sweden, South Africa and Saudi Arabia.

LET THE BALL GET ROLLING!!!!

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 16 Feb 2010 04:18

Hmmm?
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... radar.html

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 16 Feb 2010 08:26

What happened to DRDO's 3D WLR? Will that be another one of those TD

? Or is the IAI radar is a wholly different category? gurus pls explain....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Feb 2010 08:52

didnt you hear - its aesa. only the anglo-german "cobra" is supposed to be of that type. the us army cancelled the antpq47 project.

aesa good . pesa bad. wheat > rice. meat > fish.

BEL will surely benefit from this too , putting together the CKD kits and modules, there would
be some offsets on the TEL, and green paint front

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Feb 2010 09:33

LET THE BALL GET ROLLING!!!!

If we go by recent history, ball has been rolling for a very,very long time but doesnt seem to reach its destination...

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 16 Feb 2010 13:10

nukavarapu wrote:I won't be 100% sure that the Asian country refers to us. I would wait for any local media confirming the news.

Thats why I prefaced the link with "Hmmmm?"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Feb 2010 13:15

could be singapore, south korea, taiwan, thailand, vietnam ...but to me only india and south korea would be serious candidates.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 16 Feb 2010 13:24

the word "...rough terrain" in the specs make it look like india.

i think this radar is different ..its to be "compact, highly mobile..." unlike the traditional heavy WLR's

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 16 Feb 2010 13:49

^^ Could this be to complement the light howitzers that ma be deployed in mountainous terrain ? (of course if india buys this system). In this case will we be putting atop hill tops in NE?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Feb 2010 14:24

SivaVijay wrote:^^ Could this be to complement the light howitzers that ma be deployed in mountainous terrain ? (of course if india buys this system). In this case will we be putting atop hill tops in NE?

Did you read this part of the report:

"The customer needed compact weapon location radar that could be installed on a high mobility vehicle capable of handling rough terrain"

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 16 Feb 2010 14:31

^^ It's compact and high mobility vehicle, so thought something like the Sujav jammer system placed on SUV type vehicles, which could be taken up the mountains.....I may be wrong....

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Feb 2010 14:51

SivaVijay wrote:^^ It's compact and high mobility vehicle, so thought something like the Sujav jammer system placed on SUV type vehicles, which could be taken up the mountains.....I may be wrong....

The problem with above assumption is the size of the high mobility vehicle...is Stryker not a high mobility vehicles? If there is a WLR compact enough to be lifted underslung on choppers lie Mi-17V....yes, then we may be able to haul them on mountain top.

PS: but we really need to put them on mountains?I mean, does the analogy and benefit of placing a portable radar for a/c detection, apply to WLR?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Feb 2010 17:42

The GOI earlier rejected the M&Ms JV with BAe for the same as the foreign investment was 49%.The max. amt.being allowed is I think 26%? But this is the way to go if the GOI is seriously interested in indigenisation.The route first should be through JVs with those firms who can deliver.Look at the example of Brahmos.It also makes sense to buy more advanced Bofors guns as the "scandal" is now an acknowledged dead duck with decades of GOI obfuscating and which will spring into action only when Mr.Q is on his d eath bed.Bofors is now a Brit. company that has also just acknowledged "wrongdoing" (bribing) and paid a penalty of 400m pounds,getting off too easily according to the British press.The Russians had a unique double -barreled design for a howitzer where the two barrels were placed vertically not horizontally.I wonder whether the IA has ever tested that one out.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 16 Feb 2010 18:23

rohitvats wrote:
The problem with above assumption is the size of the high mobility vehicle...is Stryker not a high mobility vehicles? If there is a WLR compact enough to be lifted underslung on choppers lie Mi-17V....yes, then we may be able to haul them on mountain top.

PS: but we really need to put them on mountains?I mean, does the analogy and benefit of placing a portable radar for a/c detection, apply to WLR?

Well it could apply equally to Kargil and other parts of the western front - the ability to move it around from location to location on a high mobility vehicle is crucial there. Lets wait for more details.
I agree with an earlier post that South Korea and India are the mmost likely candidates.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Feb 2010 23:48

khukri wrote: Well it could apply equally to Kargil and other parts of the western front - the ability to move it around from location to location on a high mobility vehicle is crucial there. Lets wait for more details.
I agree with an earlier post that South Korea and India are the most likely candidates.

You do realize that by saying western sector you're referring to an area from Siachen to Gujrat. And as for the mobility of WLR, a WLR mounted on Tatra is as mobile as they get. Unless, we know the exact planned usage for a compact version for WLR, lest not get into speculation mode.

manish · Post by **manish** » 18 Feb 2010 19:09

While everyone is caught up in the Bhim/Denel T6 heavy SPG mess, looks like OFB has gone ahead and made its own little 105mm tracked SPG.
They had brochures of a an SPG that brings together a turret mounted version of the old 105mm LFG and the BMP II chassis.

As per the brochure, the SPG has a crew of 5, weighs 16T, and can carry 42 rounds internally. It has a max speed of 65kmph and has options like an autoloader, composite armour turret, FCS (why optional? - probably they mean a more advanced one) and increased ammo carrying capacity (92 vs 42) among others.

The gun has a range of 19km and can fire HE, HEAT, HESH, APDS, Smoke and Colour rounds.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Feb 2010 20:39

the russians and chinese and israelis are masters of adapting such / trailing edge but rugged kit and getting things "done" as opposed to "done in style". in the mountains this
weapon would be much easier to deploy that a giant Arjun 55cal system.

but I guess we will run around in circles asking for similar weapon on a cooler looking Stryker

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 19 Feb 2010 20:36

Singhaji you had mentioned about the SP Guns from Slovakia that indian Army could look into.
There is a news report today in Domain-B that BEML is tying up with DMD of Slovakia for the Wheeled variety.
http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general ... venue.html

BEML, being the offset partner for DMD, Slovakia for wheeled guns with 30 per cent of value, is in the final stages of offering 155 mm wheeled guns for which trials are scheduled shortly, he said.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 20 Feb 2010 02:25

rohitvats wrote:
You do realize that by saying western sector you're referring to an area from Siachen to Gujrat. And as for the mobility of WLR, a WLR mounted on Tatra is as mobile as they get. Unless, we know the exact planned usage for a compact version for WLR, lest not get into speculation mode.

I said parts of the western front - not the entire western sector, and the article refers to rough terrain - something you pointed out as well in your post - not exactly Tatra territory.

I said - lets wait for more details - I believe that is the equivalent of "lets not get into speculation mode"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Feb 2010 07:36

IA did trial a british made distributed sound sensor network to locate x-LOC mortar fires. but we didnt buy it.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Feb 2010 13:21

x-posting my post on 105mm SP system from Defence Expo-10 thread:

Gentlemen, before we jump on SP 105mm system, lets first look at the caliber itself and the role it plays in the IA.

--An arty bde in an infantry division generally has 3*Field Regiments.These are equipped with the 18*105mm IFG/LFG each.

--These are expected to provide "initmate fire support" - indirect and direct- to the division troops which is beyond the capability of the 120mm mortars. range - 17kms. A bit of history: these are called field guns because these guns in earlier times could march with Field Armies (due to their low weight) and provide the critical fire support. Also, the corresponding nomenclature of the arty regiments which man these.

--As per a series of exchages with Sanjay M many moons ago on BRF, IA had imported a number of 130mm M-46 Medium guns from Russia and had used the same to convert many of the Field Regiments from 105mm to 130mm caliber. This was an interim measure given the logjam in our arty acquisition program. We again see emphasis on higher caliber and longer range.

--Infantry Division in plains will benefit greatly from 155mm/52cal system as it will give them the range, explosive firepower and volume to deal with enemy in depth. There is no alternative to a 155mm shell.

--Another point: What benefit does a 105mm SP Arty system gives? The formations with greatest requirement of SP Arty systems like your Armored Divisions/RAPIDS or the proposed IBG will require 155/52 Cal weapon.

--The employment of 105mm caliber in western armies like the US and UK is in their Light/Airborne forces and Paratroopers respectively. The Stryker based 105mm SP convept did not go beyond the TD/Prototype stage. Stryker Brigade Combat Teams are supported by 155mm towed arty.

--An SP 105mm Arty piece may be useful with Rapid Reaction/Expeditionary forces. But even here, I do not know how difficult will it be to mate the 155mm/39 Cal M777 to something like BMP/Stryker.

--As for areas like Ladakh, unless there is gross difficulty in moving a heavy system like towed/wheeled 155mm piece and it is a must to have the mobility offered by this kind of system, I do not see any use.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 Feb 2010 13:47

Aditya G wrote:
Singha wrote:I will personally run shirtless and pantless all around the lady carmel college here if we select the PZH and order around 150.
After Adm Koshy's promise of sweets this is the next big promise ever made on BR!

I THINK Adm Koshy's promise is slightly more interesting

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 Feb 2010 13:48

A model of the wheeled version of Pzh was displayed at DE 2010.

A Pzh weighs about 50 MT, more than a T 90

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 Feb 2010 14:17

I believe that the IA has again sent a RFP for towed arty. According to the RFP the gun must be able to fire in direct mode and "destroy" a tank at about 2000 m range. The person on Bofors/Bae told me that this is the first time anybody has sakd for such a need.

By the way me thinks that the latest FH 77 B05 is miles ahead of FH 77 B02 in mmmmaaannnyyy respects. The chap at Bofors/BAe took real pains to explain the subtle difference. After all it is 20 years different.

K

soumik · Post by **soumik** » 20 Feb 2010 17:29

Kersi D wrote:A model of the wheeled version of Pzh was displayed at DE 2010.

A Pzh weighs about 50 MT, more than a T 90

K

And here is the gun Kesriji is talking about

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 20 Feb 2010 17:50

Kersi.. could you please explain the many difference in some detail.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Feb 2010 17:58

heer seems to have sent a few pzh to afghanistan for training and force protection.
it fires a few shells here....seems like even pzh has a thermal imager to fight in LOS at night maybe if caught alone without MBT/IFV around

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vumNLeVlBhw

gotta love this machine and Bhim would be equally scary. perhaps mating its turret
to Arjun is the best indo-german form of peace, progress and co-operation. rheinmetall,
diehl, renk, atlas elektronik and mtu being from same biradiri in leopard tank know each other well.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Feb 2010 18:08

krauss maffei and general dynamics also offer the "Donar" which seems to be a Pzh-lite
mounted on the tracked vehicle used by MLRS rockets. should be less costly than the
raw Pzh one hopes.

http://www.defensenews.com/osd_story.ph ... &i=3582092

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 20 Feb 2010 19:49

As far as BEML's tie-up with the Slovakian company goes, the reason is that the Slovakian SP Gun uses a TATRA vehicle as the platform/prime mover. Hence, BEML sees a niche there to mate its license produced TATRA ( originally a Czechoslovak product) to the gun provided by DMD of Slovakia.Therefore, I am not too hopeful about the technology transfer to India/ BEML. Infact, BEML has hardly been able to go beyond CKD's for Tatra trucks.

Frankly, instead of splitting hairs in evaluating and re-evaluating and re-re--etc., we should just be practical and move fast. The solution, again IMHO, is a mix of FMS procured M-109 A-5 ( these are available and can be provided at depreciated prices) + Archer. The reson I propound M-109s is not because of any particular love for the US, but simply because its a widely available gun and spares can be procured from multiple countries ( even in the case of sanctions by Unkil). Moreover, the A-5 version will be cheaper compared to the current A-6 versions.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Feb 2010 19:41

nice official video the DONAR system - Pzh turret + american tracked vehicle = 32 t overall.
once loaded with charges and 30 shells, the internal selection and loading is automatic and one man
can operate it from inside driver cabin, just as they do in case of american MLRS system in same platform.

the number of shells is a tad low @ 30 -vs- 70-80 of the big boys but the weight and low footprint of
this puppy plus the pedigree of its parents is good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAm9i_UH ... L&index=16

certainly will be cheaper than the Pzh.

jai · Post by **jai** » 21 Feb 2010 20:05

Leaving out ultra light weight options like M777 etc -

Apart from cost, is there any other reason for IA to go it for towed Arti, given the WLR climatre Arty now operates in ?

Why not go for a joint production agreement to mass produce only wheeled and tracked 155 mm howitzers ? Would these not do better in the mountrains/plains/everywhere ?

Have missiles and rockets take care of the rest...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 21 Feb 2010 21:40

Singha

looks nice but

1. I would be nervous about maintaining the auto loading system in our environments. looks way too complicated to withstand a non european environment

2. I am not sure that the lighter vehicle can take that sustained beating without hydraulic jacks like the trucks. It was rocking like crazy at each shot

Now if it is avail through FMS - I am willing to give it a try

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Feb 2010 07:51

valid points - they need to add anchoring jacks - it was indeed almost crumpling up
under the recoil - cant be good for the suspension or chassis. doesnt look ready for prime time but promising idea.

wrt to the autoloader, being a relatively 'sealed' unit , it might be ok - same as our t-series

but they better have a story on fallback to manual mode if the
autoload packs and up and how to repair it fast in the field.

their ammo loading mech where the 'drawer' swings up and clips the shell vertically
into the round loader carousel from a comfortable waist height looks better than the
'drawer' on Pzh situated down at knee level...cant be good on backs of people carrying
45kg shells.