MRCA News and Discussion

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 14 Feb 2010 07:45

SaiK wrote:Remember the cancellation of Airbus on cost factor.

Where's the thread on the A330MRTT Cancellation ?

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 14 Feb 2010 08:26

shukla wrote:Phase-three trials are in the home country of each competitor and we completed those last week in the U.S.," he said.

phase 3 as well?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 14 Feb 2010 09:24

Carl_T wrote:phase 3 as well?

Going by his statements, sure sounds like it... Couldn't find any other source to confirm though.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 14 Feb 2010 09:35

Vishal Jolapara wrote:
SaiK wrote:Remember the cancellation of Airbus on cost factor.
Where's the thread on the A330MRTT Cancellation ?

The cancellation is definitely confirmed from a few sources.. here's one of them..

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/air/j ... _1_n.shtml

The Germans, as you would expect, weren't subtle in expressing their displeasure..

http://news.oneindia.in/2010/01/29/germ ... enced.html

I agree with SaiK, Indian beaurocracy makes it not just frustrating for but extremely unpredictable.. just going from this cancellation, paying extra for a better product is not an option for our babus...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Feb 2010 09:56

The vested candidates perhaps include the cold war entities and ever grease-able babudom who have nothing but misusing power rather look at requirements.

I am interested in canceling that VVIP helo deal, instead they can wait till an extended Dhruv-VVIP version is ready, perhaps fitted with every counter measures that HAL/IAF can think off.

Not for the sake of deal per se, but to teach our babooze a lesson, the very deshi way.
/ot

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 14 Feb 2010 10:00

Paying is not a problem. But just buying them would not suffice, you have to create infra for the new ones as well along with the current ones. Just imagine how much extra expenses a new type will incur on the country.

Considering that there are plans for excercising the option for additional Awacs on IL and our already existing inventory, its always better to go for IL, which is cheap to buy and operationalize.

Just my thought only.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 14 Feb 2010 12:43

Venu wrote:Paying is not a problem. But just buying them would not suffice, you have to create infra for the new ones as well along with the current ones. Just imagine how much extra expenses a new type will incur on the country.

Considering that there are plans for excercising the option for additional Awacs on IL and our already existing inventory, its always better to go for IL, which is cheap to buy and operationalize.

Just my thought only.

I would second this though, considering the limited numbers of MRTT being procured I think it is logical to buy the IL-78, I will agree in terms of technology and fuel carrying capacity the IL-78 is inferior but it not that much and at the end of the day it just has to refuel the strike force.
Fuel Capacity:
A330: 111,000 kg
IL-78: 105,720 kg

So the difference is not that much.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 15 Feb 2010 01:08

smpratik wrote:So the difference is not that much.

Replied on the Indian Military Aviation thread since this is getting offtopic

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 15 Feb 2010 15:11

Boeing quietly sure that order might go up to 180..

“I think it is probably going to be a programme of about 180 aircraft eventually,” says Mark Kronenberg, Boeing’s vice-president for defence-related international business development. “They haven’t said they are necessarily going to buy the 60, but if you look at the way they lay it out in terms of reducing the number of platforms that’s what makes sense.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cfa2d1ee-1248 ... ab49a.html

With the LCA, FGFA, MCA projects in the pipeline.. might be a bit too optimistic.

But then again.. the pace with which those projects materialise, will determine that.. and going by LCA history may well end up being 180-200..

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Feb 2010 15:53

When the last air chief when asked in an interview said that the IL-78 service history was "satisfactory', what goodly reason was given for wanting the A-330 instead? Was it because the USAF cancelled its own tanker decision/order for the same after pro-US product politics shot down the Airbus? The argument that it could also carry troops is specious.The primary requirement is to refuel aircraft and having more of the same type is far better than operating two types fo such small numbers too! This is one instance where the MOD has done the right thing.I would even go in for more of the advanced versions of the IL-76 being devloped for the extra transports,as this airraft has done yeoman service for the IAF for decades.If we really need a super largetransport like the C-17,the AN-124 must also be examined.But there is the real reason why the US wants us to buy the C-17 is because there is a group of nations who operate it who have all signed on to a common logistic agreement so that any of them can use the others' facilities when needed. This will make us part of a US military force by defauylt,through the back door!

The same argument can be used in the MMRCA contest.What is the need for yet another type if we already have a superior aircraft in large numbers in service (SU-30MKI) at the same if not less cost? I can only see that a single pilot has its advantages in the overall cost of operating the fighter when you add the extra pilot,his family,housing schooling,medical expenses,pensions,etc.,etc., and all the other appurtenent costs that have to be factored in per fighter pilot.Perhaps the single-engined SU-35 should be seriously considered for the MMRCA role as it is supposed to come with some of the new tech being developed for the 5th-gen fighter.

With the advent of the PAK-FA,the Eurocanards have become less attractive barring the Gripen,the cheapest option whose acquisition might help the LCA programme too if there is some commonality of tech for the MK-2 version.One interesting thoght,could the Gripen also be fitted with the EJ TVC engine instead of a GE one?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 15 Feb 2010 18:29

Philip wrote:When the last air chief when asked in an interview said that the IL-78 service history was "satisfactory', what goodly reason was given for wanting the A-330 instead?

What I don't get is..if the A-330 was too expensive for our babus..then why not go for the 2nd lowet bidder - the IL-78.. why go through the entire freaking process again.. and wait for another 3-4 years..

Also, given that RFI's have gone off to Boeing as well (presumably the KC-767A which operates with the Italian & Japanese Air forces http://www.boeing.com/bds/globaltanker/files/KC767A.pdf).

One wonders if the winds of change are blowing too strongly in the American direction.. Is it a signal of the F's in the IAF??

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 15 Feb 2010 19:11

EF in field trials.

Coinciding with the starting signal for India’s largest defence exhibition, DEFEXPO 2010 (15-18 February 2010), a German Air Force Eurofighter fighter aircraft will be heading to India today. However, this aircraft will not be making acrobatic manoeuvres for the visitors of the show but, rather, will be thoroughly examined by the Indian Air Force (IAF) as part of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) MMRCA programme. The Eurofighter will join India’s ongoing programme, which has been initiated in August 2007 and is currently in the process of testing all participating contenders, to undergo trials until March in Bengaluru as well as in Jaisalmer and Leh. The two latter stations will demonstrate the Eurofighter’s desert and high altitude performance.

EADS to push for EF at DEFEXO...

Bernhard Gerwert, chairman of the supervisory board of Eurofighter GmbH and CEO of Military Air Systems, a business unit of EADS Defence & Security (DS) said: “We are well positioned in the ongoing tender [...] because the Eurofighter Typhoon is the ideal answer to the threats that India faces.” He added “The aircraft's outstanding operational performance, coupled with low life-cycle costs and a tailor-made industrial partnership offer, make the Eurofighter Typhoon a key contender in India's competition.” Eurofighter will attempt to demonstrate the aircraft’s claimed advantages at the DEFEXPO show, where its stand will showcase a Eurofighter simulator.

http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/508/

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Feb 2010 23:32

x-posting from lca thread.. livefist article

Significantly, while EADS has already begun consulting with the LCA air force variant programme, the LCA Navy is still to begin consulting with Lockheed-Martin (which won a bid to consult for the LCA Navy) since protocol clearances from the US government still haven't come through (which, personally stinks of something deeper).

"We are fully capable of completing the exercise on our own. However, we have decided to hire the services of a consultant to optimise our requirements. For example, we need to reconfigure our landing gear for a greater sink rate, etc," Cmde Balaji says.

So, whoever wishes LM or Beoing to win, consider these stinks ahead. I want our babooze to stink so that they will never consider something on price alone or politics alone.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Feb 2010 23:43

shukla wrote:
Going by his statements, sure sounds like it... Couldn't find any other source to confirm though.

confirm what ? that this is Phase 3 or that weapons trials were being conducted ? Phase 1 was the technical evaluation, Phase 2 was the Indian leg of flight tests, and Phase 3 is the weapons trials in the home country. I posted earlier itself that the F-16 weapons trials were being carried out in California and that the next contender is the Super Hornet, whose weapons trials will be done at NAS Lemoore, California.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 16 Feb 2010 03:26

Kartik wrote:F-16 weapons trials were being carried out in California and that the next contender is the Super Hornet, whose weapons trials will be done at NAS Lemoore, California.

Thanks for clarifying!

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 16 Feb 2010 14:37

EADS to open R&D center in India..assures TOT if it wins the MMRCA deal..

The CEO said in case, Eurofighter Typhoon was selected by the IAF for the MMRCA deal, the Indian industry should have the capability to absorb the technology that EADS would provide along with the aircraft.“That’s why we intend to start this R&D centre. But it is independent of the deal itself. The idea is capability building,” he said.

To a query on technology transfer and if the governments of countries participating in the consortium would be willing to issue licence for the purpose, Gerwert said when they had made the bids for the MMRCA, they had clearly mentioned about the transfer of technology and they had no problem with it then.

Says AESA in 2015..

On the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar that India was looking for its MMRCA, Gerwert said they had already informed the IAF that they did not possess it but another consortium, Euroradar, was developing it which would be provided by 2015.

http://www.livemint.com/2010/02/1610162 ... re-in.html

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 16 Feb 2010 15:08

Saab GRIPEN NG to add IRST to its list of goodies.. contracts Selex (incidentally also manufacturer of its AESA)

SELEX Galileo is pleased to announce that Saab has selected the Infrared Search & Track (IRST) system SKYWARD-G to equip Saab’s Gripen Next Generation (NG) fighter. IRST provides similar functionality to a radar without giving out electromagnetic radiation and can therefore provide full operational search and track functionality with a stealth capability. IRST can operate in highly cluttered environments to track single and multiple targets, and can also operate in slaved acquisition mode.

The selection of the SKYWARD-G system follows the agreement signed in March 2009 between Saab and SELEX Galileo for the development of the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar Raven ES-05 for the Gripen Next Generation.

SELEX Galileo is a key provider of leading edge sensors for the most advanced fighters. With the Raven ES-05 and with the IRST, the Company will be guaranteeing the full mission effectiveness of the next generation aircraft Gripen NG.

http://www.defpro.com/news/details/13175/

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Feb 2010 15:22

Typhoon , Rafale are great but expensive bird and with the arrival of 5th gen fighter in the next 5 -7 years its really redundant to invest in such expensive bird with all TOT and stuff.

We should either opt for F-16IN or Mig-35 which ever is acceptable to IAF in numbers at resonable price and increase the MKI order to close to 350 , till such times FGFA comes in numbers.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 16 Feb 2010 16:13

Lockheed tempts India with F-35..

US defence major Lockheed Martin Tuesday said it may consider selling the fifth generation fighter aircraft F-35 if approached by the Indian Air Force (IAF).
“We will consider this if the IAF approaches us,” Orville Prins, vice president for Lockheed Martin India’s operation, told reporters at the sixth edition of Defexpo India.

And also hints of possibly early delivery of F-16's if chosen..

“We have completed trials for our F-16 IN. We expect other countries will also finish it soon,” Prins added.

Prins said there was a possibility that they would deliver six C 130 J (transport aircrafts) before the delivery schedule.

“There is a possibility that we can deliver in December 2010 against the schedule delivery date of February 2011,” he said.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/unc ... 21070.html

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 16 Feb 2010 18:47

LONDON - The Royal Air Force could be test flying an active electronically scanned array radar on a Typhoon fighter within three years following a deal between the British Ministry of Defence and Selex Galileo to develop and build the key new sensor as part of a technology demonstrator program.

...

Bob Mason, senior vice president for sales and marketing for radar and advanced targeting at Selex Galileo, confirmed he expects to have the new AESA radar flying on a British Typhoon in the 2013 timeframe but said the precise date was dependent on progress with development and the availability of an airframe.

The British development will use Selex Galileo's so-called swashplate architecture, which allows the radar's angled antenna to be rotated. Other AESA radars developed in the U.S and France use fixed antenna.

The swashplate technology has recently flown onboard a Saab Gripen test aircraft following the decision by the Swedish company to fit a Selex Galileo Raven ES-05 AESA radar to the next generation variant of the fighter now under development

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =EUR&s=AIR

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 16 Feb 2010 18:58

shukla wrote:Lockheed tempts India with F-35..
And also hints of possibly early delivery of F-16's if chosen..

“We have completed trials for our F-16 IN. We expect other countries will also finish it soon,” Prins added.

Prins said there was a possibility that they would deliver six C 130 J (transport aircrafts) before the delivery schedule.

“There is a possibility that we can deliver in December 2010 against the schedule delivery date of February 2011,” he said.
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/unc ... 21070.html

I think he was referring to the C-130J not the F-16.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 16 Feb 2010 19:00

dorai wrote:

The swashplate technology has recently flown onboard a Saab Gripen test aircraft following the decision by the Swedish company to fit a Selex Galileo Raven ES-05 AESA radar to the next generation variant of the fighter now under development

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =EUR&s=AIR

Also note that Gripen NG now has Selex's IRST.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Feb 2010 19:13

shukla wrote:Lockheed tempts India with F-35..

They have been saying that since about 2003!!!!

Besides that they have stated they are willing to include some "F-35" technologies into the F-16IN.

Nothing new there.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 16 Feb 2010 19:55

Austin wrote:Typhoon , Rafale are great but expensive bird and with the arrival of 5th gen fighter in the next 5 -7 years its really redundant to invest in such expensive bird with all TOT and stuff.

We should either opt for F-16IN or Mig-35 which ever is acceptable to IAF in numbers at resonable price and increase the MKI order to close to 350 , till such times FGFA comes in numbers.

To me there are two aspects

One as you already said - since 5th Gen fighter is on near horizon, it is better to go for cheaper one (Mig 35/F-16IN/Gripen NG)

The second one is - Since MMRCA will be used till 2040, it should be capable of being a decent aircraft till then. A not so advanced aircraft selected today might be considered outdated till then

Thus situation effectively narrows down to incremental cost analysis. Say for example incremental cost of Rafale over Mig 35 is 30 Mn USD. Rafale is expected to remain front line mean machine till 2040 and Mig 35 will be considered outdated say by 2030. Thus for additional 30 mn USD, u get additional 10 years. Present cost of Mig 35 will be around 50 Mn US considering cost of additional mig 29K, and cost of Rafale will be 80 mn USD.
Also, in case of war, if we would have spent additional 30 MN USD, chance of return of aircraft will increase many fold. In case of cheaper bird which will be outdated by 2030, it will mean wastage of 50 MN USD since the probability of their returning after mission would be lower....

If incremental cost does not justify the additional benefit, it is better to go for cheaper birds

All the above is hypothetical and just to make my thoughts clear...

Neither is the analysis intended to support any of the strategy. It is just to initiate a thought process in that line

Disclaimer
I am not a die hard fan of Rafale, neither do i hate Mig 35.... so please spare me in case i hurt your feelings

NRAO Sir,
LM has been talking of generous spraying of 5th gen techs on F 16IN, but never thought it right to name a few. What do you feel that can be taken from F 22/35? And why can boeing do the same considering it is programme partner in f22?
Also, what do you feel on chance of MKIzation in MMRCA - To me it is ZERO this time even with russian, reason being it will only delay operational readiness..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Feb 2010 21:25

Can we agree that is all not just price aspect alone? Does MoD/Babus think that way?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Feb 2010 21:45

nrshah wrote: LM has been talking of generous spraying of 5th gen techs on F 16IN, but never thought it right to name a few. What do you feel that can be taken from F 22/35? And why can boeing do the same considering it is programme partner in f22?
Also, what do you feel on chance of MKIzation in MMRCA - To me it is ZERO this time even with russian, reason being it will only delay operational readiness..

Dunno.

My earlier post WRT only the fact that the news is not anything new. That is it.

However, IMHO, the RFP rules. As long as a vendor can meet the RFP that should do from an Indian PoV.

What can LM add? Well .......................... IMHO again, sensors, sensors, sensors, followed very closely by networks, bandwidth to communicate, RT data and experience with all this.

Having said that I do not know what they are willing to part with and, of course, at what ($ and political) cost. But this I am sure of that the US players have more to offer specially when the combo of tech + experience is considered.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Feb 2010 23:02

Well that is all marketing and attracting aspects of any company. From a strategic angle, I don't think we can hyde under any Mr. Jackal from US Congress to sprinkle choking poison even if we sign the cismoa.

They can provide the best.. but will come with 50% efficiency or parts that enables Unkill strategy will always win. They can chew right before or during when pakis wag their tail. They would simply say don't use their weapons to fight their friends. plain and simple.

It is impossible for them to share technology to the level we are asking, even though we are willing to buy at a reasonable cost. I hope MoD/Babus understand our RFI/RFPs better or those people holding the files, educate them to the right decision.

It would be really silly and banana republic if we cancel this MRCA after the order to be placed, owing to some silly reason under baboodom.

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 16 Feb 2010 23:04

With the MRCA on track, PAKFA online and then the Navy's requirement for it's own fighters how much of integration will be there between these platforms? For eg: will it be possible for a SUMKI to lighten up a target for a missile launch for say a grp of LCA and MRCA operating ahead with it's own RADAR down or can a Infantry man on ground directly call a NLCA/MIG 29 overhead to clear a bunker on a beach head? I know that IAF is to have it's own SAT and all that but how much can these platforms be modified to take full advantage of the IAF specific n/w capability that will come into place and moreover if they have to be modified won't we have to expose some sensitive data on the n/w to these manufacturers?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Feb 2010 00:06

^^^^^

All in good time.

Technically they seem to be getting there.

Politically, dunno.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Feb 2010 00:33

we never discussed about low flying aspect (also from a ^^netcentric environment) and as well as hitting low flying targets.

which a/c is best suited? it would be really interesting if MKI can transmit and LCA./MRCA can receive and lock the targets.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Feb 2010 05:46

smpratik wrote:
I think he was referring to the C-130J not the F-16.

he was referring to the C-130J, but its also an indication that if the F-16IN is chosen, they will be able to do the same. I mean how many companies meet their airplane orders before schedule ? The only one I can think of is Boeing, which did on-time and better than on-time delivery performance for the Super Hornets they delivered to the USN. Lockheed Martin and Boeing alongwith EADS have the industrial capacity that Saab, MiG and Dassault lack, to ramp up production thanks to large orders they're fulfilling.

Saab is basically keeping the Gripen C/D line active by upgrading Flygvapnet Gripen A/Bs to C/D standards and with the small numbers of SAAF and Thai AF orders it has in hand, it can go on till 2012-13 or so without any interruption. Since the Gripen NG is similar in most aspects to the Gripen C/D, except the larger air channel and landing gear fairing and some internal modifications airframe wise, they will be able to use the existing assembly line for the 18 direct-delivery NG if they get selected. There will be challenges but here again Saab has proven to be very dependable as far as time-lines go.

Dassault's situation is a bit more fluid. For a while they didn't really do much on the export front, and were doing well with the Falcon series bizjet sales, so they weren't concerned with the lack of Rafale export sales. But with the worldwide economic recession, bizjet sales crashed and the Rafale became the key to sustained order books. Currently, they're simply dawdling, producing 12 Rafales per year, and the French Govt. would be happy if they could slow it down further, so that their procurement budget pressure decreases. But its not economical for Dassault to slow it down any further, even though the current rate ensures that without any more orders, they'll still be building Rafales till 2020. Crucially for them, there is a UAE deal that is reportedly very close to being signed (a recent report suggesting it was just a few weeks away) and its for 60 Rafales. If that deal comes through, Dassault will need to ramp up production to meet UAE's schedule as well as the Adl'A delivery schedule (which will most certainly be drawn out even further).

And its clear that Dassault's heart and mind are actually set on UAE and Kuwait right now alongwith Brazil, and India doesn't really feature in their biggest priorities. I can say that considering that we haven't heard one single statement from any top Dassault exec in a long while on the MRCA, whereas these other deals are in the news all the time. And even EADS, which hadn't invited a single Indian journalist to their facilities did so recently with Shiv Aroor, whereas to date none has been invited by Dassault for a test flight or to visit their facilities. They're the only ones in the MRCA competition who seem to think that this sort of marketing makes no difference.

The Middle-eastern nations are especially juicy targets because they are historically weak in engineering, maintenance and assembly activities and are hence a boon for the OEMs. No jhanjhat of offsets, transfer of tooling, documents, large scale training, technology transfer, vagera, and the OEM's get to build the largest portion of the fighters in their home countries, meaning more jobs at home. And in most cases, the OEMs get large and very lucrative support contracts as well (for instance the Al Yamamah contract), which ensure plenty of funds, and plenty of jobs for contractors from the home countries of the OEM. Brazil is the one market where its the opposite and for several reasons that are both geo-political and historical, Dassault has been very aggressive there. And they have a good reason for that since recent history shows that Brazil has a preference for French products, despite their premium prices because Brazil is not close to the US or Russia and hasn't really warmed up to the UK or Germany either. The possibility of a large order, combined with the possibility that the French could seal up pretty much the largest portion of the Brazilian defence market (combined with recent sales of Scorpenes and a nuke sub, helicopters, etc.) mean they're willing to slash prices lower than they will anywhere else. And still they're the most expensive.

regarding MiG, I wrote earlier as well about how their manufacturing and assembly activities will most definitely be the last among the 6, so I won't repeat it. IMO, they're the ones who if selected, are most likely to be delayed for delivery of the first fighters itself because the ramp up for them is so steep that unless some miracle happens, there will most definitely be delays. I don't doubt their engineering skills, but unfortunately in the aircraft business, that alone is not enough. A robust supply chain and a well established assembly line are very critical in order to go from nill to being able to produce 15-20 per year.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 17 Feb 2010 13:04

More news on EF AESA.. MOD go-ahead, contracts SELEX..

The Royal Air Force could be test flying an active electronically scanned array radar on a Typhoon fighter within three years following a deal between the British Ministry of Defence and Selex Galileo to develop and build the key new sensor as part of a technology demonstrator program.

Selex Galileo, an arm of Italian-based Finmeccanica, has signed a 19 million pound ($29.8 million) contract with the MoD to lead a demonstrator program likely to run for up to five years as the British look to de-risk the technology ahead of a likely fielding on Eurofighter-built Typhoons, said an MoD source.

Already in service with the U.S. military, AESA has been widely adopted by Western fighter makers and is now a must have system in major fighter export competitions in India, Japan and elsewhere. Bob Mason, senior vice president for sales and marketing for radar and advanced targeting at Selex Galileo, confirmed he expects to have the new AESA radar flying on a British Typhoon in the 2013 timeframe but said the precise date was dependent on progress with development and the availability of an airframe.

It took well over 5 years for Boeing to develop its APG - 79. The vice president seems overly optimistic.. It doesn't look as if the EF will have AESA on time for first batch of EF's, just in case IAF plums for the EF.. Thats going to be a huge disadvantage to the already overpriced EF. I wonder if having an aircraft like the F/A-18 with a mature AESA would be a huge advantage..

http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=4499912&c=EUR&s=AIR

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 17 Feb 2010 13:20

Kartik wrote:Crucially for them, there is a UAE deal that is reportedly very close to being signed (a recent report suggesting it was just a few weeks away) and its for 60 Rafales.

Just an update on that UAE deal.. looks like the Rafales are in a spot of bother (putting it mildly)...

Abu Dhabi has thrown a wrench in the works by demanding that the Rafales be armed with Boeing's SLAM ER/2 missile instead of the European-made MBDA AM-39 they are fitted to carry.

The emirates' military says it wants missiles capable of reaching targets deep inside Iran. While the AM-39 has a range of 65 miles, the SLAM ER/2 can travel up to 160 miles.

Adapting the Rafale to carry SLAMs would present technical difficulties and would cut out MBDA, a British-German-French-Italian missile consortium, of any contract Dassault may negotiate.

To add to Rafales plight..

Dassault Chief Executive Officer Charles Edelstenne conceded that he'd given up hope of landing contracts for Rafale in Kuwait and Greece.

Libya, he said, was ready to place an order for 14 Rafales 15 months ago, but the final decision has been put on hold.

Morocco passed on the purchase of 12-18 Rafales, to be financed by Saudi Arabia, and signed an $842 million deal with Lockheed Martin for 24 F-16s in December.

Meantime, Dassault is waiting for the outcome of fighter competitions in India and Switzerland.

Edelstenne complained that Americans were doing all they could to sabotage Dassault's effort to sell the Rafale to Abu Dhabi and noted that the jet is 30 percent more expensive than its U.S. rivals because of the euro's strength against the dollar.

Are we seeing the beginning of the end for Rafales?? Or will it be ready to go down on its knees and slash prices to salvage a deal?? Well with the UAE it might have to do a bit more than just slash prices...

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Securi ... 266346270/

vcsekhar · Post by **vcsekhar** » 17 Feb 2010 13:30

Just wondering if any of you guys are going to see the vayu shakti day in Pokhran next week?
Anyone from media -- shiv -- going to cover this?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 17 Feb 2010 19:07

Northrop Grumman displays AESA on F-16IN at the DEFEXPO (amongst other products)..

on display will be a model of Northrop Grumman's AN/APG-80 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for the F-16IN Super Viper multi-role fighter aircraft.

http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=278717

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Feb 2010 19:14

Are we seeing the beginning of the end for Rafales?? Or will it be ready to go down on its knees and slash prices to salvage a deal?? Well with the UAE it might have to do a bit more than just slash prices...

IF it is really the Euro, that is to e blamed, then it could be a diff story WRT India. But, my guess is that the French air craft is actually more expensive - just because the amount they have solely invested in it and with so few sales.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Feb 2010 19:15

After reading the US analysts' grudging take on the PAK-FA's first flight and the doubts about the Russians developing certain key tech for the same before stated induction by 2015 the earliest,given India's partnership with Sukhoi for "250" aircraft and India's limitations in providing the Russians for the same,I wonder whether certain key tech for the MMRCA will be denied to India by the US.We may eventually be offered the two US aircraft with downgraded AESA and other tech,as full TOT beind demanded by us could be theoretically used on the 5th-gen programme.This is similar how the Chinese have reverse engineered much Russian tech from the Flanker without,angering the Russians,who are now extremely wary of selling them their latest wares including naval carrier aircraft.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 17 Feb 2010 19:40

NRao wrote:
Are we seeing the beginning of the end for Rafales?? Or will it be ready to go down on its knees and slash prices to salvage a deal?? Well with the UAE it might have to do a bit more than just slash prices...
IF it is really the Euro, that is to e blamed, then it could be a diff story WRT India. But, my guess is that the French air craft is actually more expensive - just because the amount they have solely invested in it and with so few sales.

I agree, i think the Euro is only one part of the problem.. but from Dassaults point of view,convenient and easy to blame I guess..

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Feb 2010 20:33

I am of the opinion that no one out there really care about the other. It is just business. I find it very hard to believe that Russia will be agreeable to part with technologies that they really do not want to part with - they say they will, but I doubt if they will.

Point being from an Indian PoV it is the MCA that will be THE crown jewel. To expect a MMRCA or a FGFA to take that place is foolish. We have to expect either country to provide downgraded stuff. Or pay a huge price for it. Money or influence.

I would have thought the GoI would have started - say in 2000 - an honest program to deal with core technologies (perhaps they have and I am not aware of it). It is ridiculous that in 2010 India is still making arguments that were made in the 90s!!!!

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 17 Feb 2010 21:45

Emirates throw wrench in Dassault works

France's Dassault Aviation, desperate to find the first foreign customer for its multi-role Rafale fighter, is concentrating on a potential sale of 60 of the jets to the United Arab Emirates.
But Abu Dhabi has thrown a wrench in the works by demanding that the Rafales be armed with Boeing's SLAM ER/2 missile instead of the European-made MBDA AM-39 they are fitted to carry.

Link